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Suggestion when removing Teak from deck

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  • naumangl
    We have owned our 38 foot 1973 Ketch for over 20 years. We keep Raga in New Bern NC. When rebedding the deck hardware how much torque should be used on the
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 5, 2008
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      We have owned our 38 foot 1973 Ketch for over 20 years. We keep Raga
      in New Bern NC. When rebedding the deck hardware how much torque
      should be used on the nuts on the cleats, jib track and safety line
      bases? Has anyone used substitute teak materials?
      thanks
      George Nauman
    • Graham Norbury
      George, The general principle is that movement is the enemy of a good seal. You want the deck hardware fastened tight enough that it isn t going to move
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 6, 2008
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        George,

        The general principle is that movement is the enemy of a good seal. You
        want the deck hardware fastened tight enough that it isn't going to move
        around when subjected to load, and also it mustn't be able to work loose
        over time. Additionally, no fasteners should directly penetrate a balsa
        cored deck without the core material having been reefed out and
        back-filled with epoxy. Under those circumstances, you wouldn't expect
        the deck to be able to compress, so adequate torque shouldn't be an issue.

        Conventional wisdom suggests a two step tightening process when bedding
        hardware; first apply the sealant and loosely fastened the hardware,
        then next day when the sealant has partially cured, tighten it down
        fully without permitting the through-bolts to turn (else you destroy the
        seal). That said, I've never had anything leak if its been adequately
        gooped up and fully tightened in the same session.

        regards
        Graham

        naumangl wrote:
        >
        > We have owned our 38 foot 1973 Ketch for over 20 years. We keep Raga
        > in New Bern NC. When rebedding the deck hardware how much torque
        > should be used on the nuts on the cleats, jib track and safety line
        > bases? Has anyone used substitute teak materials?
        > thanks
        > George Nauman
        >
        >
        >
      • Jeff Avery
        George , I have a 1969 CN38 Ketch and I have done quite a bit of work on her including rebedding some of the deck hardware . I am a mechanic by trade and I
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 6, 2008
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          George ,

          I have a 1969 CN38 Ketch and I have done quite a bit of work on her
          including rebedding some of the deck hardware . I am a mechanic by trade and
          I ended up using a torque of about 40 ft.lbs on all deck hardware utilizing
          stainless steel fender washers and nylok nuts .

          I too am curious about the " plasti teak " , I've seen it at boat shows
          but never on a "real" boat .

          Jeff Avery
          S/V Valkyrie


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "naumangl" <naumangl@...>
          To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 9:53 PM
          Subject: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck


          > We have owned our 38 foot 1973 Ketch for over 20 years. We keep Raga
          > in New Bern NC. When rebedding the deck hardware how much torque
          > should be used on the nuts on the cleats, jib track and safety line
          > bases? Has anyone used substitute teak materials?
          > thanks
          > George Nauman
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Stephen Perry
          I agree with Graham with one minor change. Over the last few years I ve been attaching deck hardware using filled (thickened) epoxy as a bedding material. If
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 6, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            I agree with Graham with one minor change. Over the last few years I've been attaching deck hardware using filled (thickened) epoxy as a bedding material. If the piece of hardware is not already on a slightly raised base I make that first (usually about 1/4 inch thick). At the same time I fill all previous holes with epoxy and-as Graham noted in his email-rake out any core and fill where the fasteners will penetrate. After the raised base is shaped and faired the fastener holes are drilled and countersunk. Then I position the piece of hardware and start the bolts into the holes before applying the last thin layer of sealant which is also thickened epoxy-this insures that the nuts do not get covered with the epoxy. The epoxy gets pulled into the fastener hole and fills the countersink; snug everything down; tighten the nuts slightly a day later. The epoxy fillet/base can then be painted and will not discolor the way some sealants do. If you ever have to remove the hardware, heat the fastener heads with a soldering gun and they will back out fairly easily. One nice thing about epoxy is that it can be sanded and rebonded more easily than most other sealants. If it sounds like I worry too much about having to take off and re-do stuff on deck....you're right! Hope this helps.

            Stephen
            ________________________________
            > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
            > From: gnorbury@...
            > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:19:58 -0400
            > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck
            >
            >
            > George,
            >
            > The general principle is that movement is the enemy of a good seal. You
            > want the deck hardware fastened tight enough that it isn't going to move
            > around when subjected to load, and also it mustn't be able to work loose
            > over time. Additionally, no fasteners should directly penetrate a balsa
            > cored deck without the core material having been reefed out and
            > back-filled with epoxy. Under those circumstances, you wouldn't expect
            > the deck to be able to compress, so adequate torque shouldn't be an issue.
            >
            > Conventional wisdom suggests a two step tightening process when bedding
            > hardware; first apply the sealant and loosely fastened the hardware,
            > then next day when the sealant has partially cured, tighten it down
            > fully without permitting the through-bolts to turn (else you destroy the
            > seal). That said, I've never had anything leak if its been adequately
            > gooped up and fully tightened in the same session.
            >
            > regards
            > Graham
            >
            > naumangl wrote:
            >>
            >> We have owned our 38 foot 1973 Ketch for over 20 years. We keep Raga
            >> in New Bern NC. When rebedding the deck hardware how much torque
            >> should be used on the nuts on the cleats, jib track and safety line
            >> bases? Has anyone used substitute teak materials?
            >> thanks
            >> George Nauman
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
            _________________________________________________________________
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          • Hugh Price
            NICHOLSON HALF TONNER, LAYBACK Anyone got a suggestion how I can prevent rainwater coming down the keel-stepped mast ? There is not a significant amount unless
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 7, 2008
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              NICHOLSON HALF TONNER, LAYBACK
               
              Anyone got a suggestion how I can prevent rainwater coming down the keel-stepped mast ?
              There is not a significant amount unless there has been very heavy rain and it lies under the floor panels until I sponge it out.
               
              Have considered putting some expanding foam into the mast cavity at deck level, but this would cause problems with electrical cables, as it would make it extremely awkward to replace any cables.
               
              Hugh Price
              Keswick
              England

              > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
              > From: phrf201@...
              > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:09:02 +0000
              > Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck
              >
              >
              > I agree with Graham with one minor change. Over the last few years I've been attaching deck hardware using filled (thickened) epoxy as a bedding material. If the piece of hardware is not already on a slightly raised base I make that first (usually about 1/4 inch thick). At the same time I fill all previous holes with epoxy and-as Graham noted in his email-rake out any core and fill where the fasteners will penetrate. After the raised base is shaped and faired the fastener holes are drilled and countersunk. Then I position the piece of hardware and start the bolts into the holes before applying the last thin layer of sealant which is also thickened epoxy-this insures that the nuts do not get covered with the epoxy. The epoxy gets pulled into the fastener hole and fills the countersink; snug everything down; tighten the nuts slightly a day later. The epoxy fillet/base can then be painted and will not discolor the way some sealants do. If you ever have to remove the hardware, heat the fastener heads with a soldering gun and they will back out fairly easily. One nice thing about epoxy is that it can be sanded and rebonded more easily than most other sealants. If it sounds like I worry too much about having to take off and re-do stuff on deck....you're right! Hope this helps.
              >
              > Stephen
              > ________________________________
              > > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
              > > From: gnorbury@...
              > > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:19:58 -0400
              > > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck
              > >
              > >
              > > George,
              > >
              > > The general principle is that movement is the enemy of a good seal. You
              > > want the deck hardware fastened tight enough that it isn't going to move
              > > around when subjected to load, and also it mustn't be able to work loose
              > > over time. Additionally, no fasteners should directly penetrate a balsa
              > > cored deck without the core material having been reefed out and
              > > back-filled with epoxy. Under those circumstances, you wouldn't expect
              > > the deck to be able to compress, so adequate torque shouldn't be an issue.
              > >
              > > Conventional wisdom suggests a two step tightening process when bedding
              > > hardware; first apply the sealant and loosely fastened the hardware,
              > > then next day when the sealant has partially cured, tighten it down
              > > fully without permitting the through-bolts to turn (else you destroy the
              > > seal). That said, I've never had anything leak if its been adequately
              > > gooped up and fully tightened in the same session.
              > >
              > > regards
              > > Graham
              > >
              > > naumangl wrote:
              > >>
              > >> We have owned our 38 foot 1973 Ketch for over 20 years. We keep Raga
              > >> in New Bern NC. When rebedding the deck hardware how much torque
              > >> should be used on the nuts on the cleats, jib track and safety line
              > >> bases? Has anyone used substitute teak materials?
              > >> thanks
              > >> George Nauman
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie.
              > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008
              > ------------------------------------
              >
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              >
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            • David Burnham
              Hugh, Sorry, but there is no way that you can prevent rainwater coming down the keel-stepped mast. The alternative is to seal the bottom of the mast and let it
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 11, 2008
              • 0 Attachment

                Hugh,

                Sorry, but there is no way that you can prevent rainwater coming down the keel-stepped mast.

                The alternative is to seal the bottom of the mast and let it collect inside the bottom of the mast.

                Then pump the water overboard and out of the mast as needed.

                My Nic 33 has the same problem with sponging the shallow bilge but I use the excuse to get out

                onto the boat after every heavy rainshower.

                David Burnham

                Time... hull #19



                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Hugh Price <hughprice@...>
                To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:21:36 AM
                Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck

                NICHOLSON HALF TONNER, LAYBACK
                 
                Anyone got a suggestion how I can prevent rainwater coming down the keel-stepped mast ?
                There is not a significant amount unless there has been very heavy rain and it lies under the floor panels until I sponge it out.
                 
                Have considered putting some expanding foam into the mast cavity at deck level, but this would cause problems with electrical cables, as it would make it extremely awkward to replace any cables..
                 
                Hugh Price
                Keswick
                England

                > To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
                > From: phrf201@hotmail. com
                > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:09:02 +0000
                > Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck
                >
                >
                > I agree with Graham with one minor change. Over the last few years I've been attaching deck hardware using filled (thickened) epoxy as a bedding material. If the piece of hardware is not already on a slightly
                raised base I make that first (usually about 1/4 inch thick). At the same time I fill all previous holes with epoxy and-as Graham noted in his email-rake out any core and fill where the fasteners will penetrate. After the raised base is shaped and faired the fastener holes are drilled and countersunk. Then I position the piece of hardware and start the bolts into the holes before applying the last thin layer of sealant which is also thickened epoxy-this insures that the nuts do not get covered with the epoxy. The epoxy gets pulled into the fastener hole and fills the countersink; snug everything down; tighten the nuts slightly a day later. The epoxy fillet/base can then be painted and will not discolor the way some sealants do. If you ever have to remove the hardware, heat the fastener heads with a soldering gun and they will back out fairly easily. One nice thing about epoxy is that it can be sanded and rebonded more easily than most other sealants. If it sounds like I worry too much about having to take off and re-do stuff on deck....you' re right! Hope this helps.
                >
                > Stephen
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > > To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
                > > From: gnorbury@bondcar. com
                > > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:19:58 -0400
                > > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck
                > >
                > >
                > > George,
                > >
                > > The general principle is that movement is the enemy of a good seal. You
                > > want the deck hardware fastened tight enough that it isn't going to move
                > > around when subjected to load, and also it mustn't be able to work loose
                > > over time. Additionally, no fasteners should directly penetrate a balsa
                > > cored deck without the core material having been reefed out and
                > > back-filled with epoxy. Under those circumstances, you
                wouldn't expect
                > > the deck to be able to compress, so adequate torque shouldn't be an issue.
                > >
                > > Conventional wisdom suggests a two step tightening process when bedding
                > > hardware; first apply the sealant and loosely fastened the hardware,
                > > then next day when the sealant has partially cured, tighten it down
                > > fully without permitting the through-bolts to turn (else you destroy the
                > > seal). That said, I've never had anything leak if its been adequately
                > > gooped up and fully tightened in the same session.
                > >
                > > regards
                > > Graham
                > >
                > > naumangl wrote:
                > >>
                > >> We have owned our 38 foot 1973 Ketch for over 20 years. We keep Raga
                > >> in New Bern NC. When rebedding the deck hardware how much torque
                > >> should be used on the nuts on the cleats, jib track and safety
                line
                > >> bases? Has anyone used substitute teak materials?
                > >> thanks
                > >> George Nauman
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
                > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie.
                > http://windowslive. com/connect/ post/jamiethomso n.spaces. live.com- Blog-cns! 550F681DAD532637 !5295.entry? ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ domore_092008
                > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/campernich olson/
                >
                > <*> Your email settings:
                > Individual Email | Traditional
                >
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                group/campernich olson/join
                > (Yahoo! ID required)
                >
                > <*> To change settings via email:
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              • dan hamilton
                I have a canvas mast boot around the base of my mast on deck and have never had water leak below. Maybe I don t understand the problem. Dam
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 12, 2008
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                  I have a canvas mast boot around the base of my mast on deck and have never had water leak below. Maybe I don't understand the problem.

                  Dam


                  --- On Sat, 10/11/08, David Burnham <burnhad@...> wrote:

                  > From: David Burnham <burnhad@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck
                  > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 8:56 PM
                  > Hugh,
                  > Sorry, but there is no way that you can prevent rainwater
                  > coming down the keel-stepped mast.
                  > The alternative is to seal the bottom of the mast and let
                  > it collect inside the bottom of the mast.
                  > Then pump the water overboard and out of the mast as
                  > needed.
                  > My Nic 33 has the same problem with sponging the shallow
                  > bilge but I use the excuse to get out
                  > onto the boat after every heavy rainshower.
                  > David Burnham
                  > Time... hull #19
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message ----
                  > From: Hugh Price <hughprice@...>
                  > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Tuesday, October 7, 2008 4:21:36 AM
                  > Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing
                  > Teak from deck
                  >
                  >
                  > NICHOLSON HALF TONNER, LAYBACK
                  >  
                  > Anyone got a suggestion how I can prevent rainwater coming
                  > down the keel-stepped mast ?
                  > There is not a significant amount unless there has been
                  > very heavy rain and it lies under the floor panels until I
                  > sponge it out.
                  >  
                  > Have considered putting some expanding foam into the mast
                  > cavity at deck level, but this would cause problems with
                  > electrical cables, as it would make it extremely awkward to
                  > replace any cables.
                  >  
                  > Hugh Price
                  > Keswick
                  > England
                  >
                  > > To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
                  > > From: phrf201@hotmail. com
                  > > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:09:02 +0000
                  > > Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Suggestion when
                  > removing Teak from deck
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I agree with Graham with one minor change. Over the
                  > last few years I've been attaching deck hardware using
                  > filled (thickened) epoxy as a bedding material. If the piece
                  > of hardware is not already on a slightly raised base I make
                  > that first (usually about 1/4 inch thick). At the same time
                  > I fill all previous holes with epoxy and-as Graham noted in
                  > his email-rake out any core and fill where the fasteners
                  > will penetrate. After the raised base is shaped and faired
                  > the fastener holes are drilled and countersunk. Then I
                  > position the piece of hardware and start the bolts into the
                  > holes before applying the last thin layer of sealant which
                  > is also thickened epoxy-this insures that the nuts do not
                  > get covered with the epoxy. The epoxy gets pulled into the
                  > fastener hole and fills the countersink; snug everything
                  > down; tighten the nuts slightly a day later. The epoxy
                  > fillet/base can then be painted and will not discolor the
                  > way some sealants do. If you ever have to
                  > remove the hardware, heat the fastener heads with a
                  > soldering gun and they will back out fairly easily. One nice
                  > thing about epoxy is that it can be sanded and rebonded more
                  > easily than most other sealants. If it sounds like I worry
                  > too much about having to take off and re-do stuff on
                  > deck....you' re right! Hope this helps.
                  > >
                  > > Stephen
                  > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                  > > > To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
                  > > > From: gnorbury@bondcar. com
                  > > > Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:19:58 -0400
                  > > > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Suggestion when
                  > removing Teak from deck
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > George,
                  > > >
                  > > > The general principle is that movement is the
                  > enemy of a good seal. You
                  > > > want the deck hardware fastened tight enough that
                  > it isn't going to move
                  > > > around when subjected to load, and also it
                  > mustn't be able to work loose
                  > > > over time. Additionally, no fasteners should
                  > directly penetrate a balsa
                  > > > cored deck without the core material having been
                  > reefed out and
                  > > > back-filled with epoxy. Under those
                  > circumstances, you wouldn't expect
                  > > > the deck to be able to compress, so adequate
                  > torque shouldn't be an issue.
                  > > >
                  > > > Conventional wisdom suggests a two step
                  > tightening process when bedding
                  > > > hardware; first apply the sealant and loosely
                  > fastened the hardware,
                  > > > then next day when the sealant has partially
                  > cured, tighten it down
                  > > > fully without permitting the through-bolts to
                  > turn (else you destroy the
                  > > > seal). That said, I've never had anything
                  > leak if its been adequately
                  > > > gooped up and fully tightened in the same
                  > session.
                  > > >
                  > > > regards
                  > > > Graham
                  > > >
                  > > > naumangl wrote:
                  > > >>
                  > > >> We have owned our 38 foot 1973 Ketch for over
                  > 20 years. We keep Raga
                  > > >> in New Bern NC. When rebedding the deck
                  > hardware how much torque
                  > > >> should be used on the nuts on the cleats, jib
                  > track and safety line
                  > > >> bases? Has anyone used substitute teak
                  > materials?
                  > > >> thanks
                  > > >> George Nauman
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >>
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________
                  > _________ ________
                  > > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden
                  > secrets” from Jamie.
                  > > http://windowslive. com/connect/ post/jamiethomso
                  > n.spaces. live.com- Blog-cns! 550F681DAD532637 !5295.entry?
                  > ocid=TXT_ TAGLM_WL_ domore_092008
                  > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > Try Facebook in Windows Live Messenger! Try it Now!
                • Graham Norbury
                  As I understand it, the complaint is that water runs down the inside of the mast, and collects around the mast step. I ve never found it to be a serious
                  Message 8 of 9 , Oct 12, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    As I understand it, the complaint is that water runs down the inside of
                    the mast, and collects around the mast step.
                    I've never found it to be a serious problem, but it does cause the mast
                    step to remain wet and thus promote corrosion.

                    Graham

                    dan hamilton wrote:
                    >
                    > I have a canvas mast boot around the base of my mast on deck and have
                    > never had water leak below. Maybe I don't understand the problem.
                    >
                    > Dam
                    >
                    > --- On Sat, 10/11/08, David Burnham <burnhad@...
                    > <mailto:burnhad%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                    >
                    > > From: David Burnham <burnhad@... <mailto:burnhad%40yahoo.com>>
                    > > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck
                    > > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:campernicholson%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 8:56 PM
                    > > Hugh,
                    > > Sorry, but there is no way that you can prevent rainwater
                    > > coming down the keel-stepped mast.
                    > > The alternative is to seal the bottom of the mast and let
                    > > it collect inside the bottom of the mast.
                    > > Then pump the water overboard and out of the mast as
                    > > needed.
                    > > My Nic 33 has the same problem with sponging the shallow
                    > > bilge but I use the excuse to get out
                    > > onto the boat after every heavy rainshower.
                    > > David Burnham
                    > > Time... hull #19
                    > >
                    >
                  • Denece Vincent
                    I guess I don t understand the problem either. One does have to maintain the opening of the limberhole at the base of the track, but then the water seems to
                    Message 9 of 9 , Oct 12, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I guess I don't understand the problem either.
                      One does have to maintain the opening of the limberhole at the base of the track, but then the water seems to find the bilge without causing any trouble.
                       
                      Denece
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: 10/12/2008 5:01:58 PM
                      Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck

                      As I understand it, the complaint is that water runs down the inside of
                      the mast, and collects around the mast step.
                      I've never found it to be a serious problem, but it does cause the mast
                      step to remain wet and thus promote corrosion.

                      Graham

                      dan hamilton wrote:
                      >
                      > I have a canvas mast boot around the base of my mast on deck and have
                      > never had water leak below. Maybe I don't understand the problem.
                      >
                      > Dam
                      >
                      > --- On Sat, 10/11/08, David Burnham <burnhad@yahoo. com
                      > <mailto:burnhad% 40yahoo.com> > wrote:
                      >
                      > > From: David Burnham <burnhad@yahoo. com <mailto:burnhad% 40yahoo.com> >
                      > > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Suggestion when removing Teak from deck
                      > > To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
                      > <mailto:campernicho lson%40yahoogrou ps.com>
                      > > Date: Saturday, October 11, 2008, 8:56 PM
                      > > Hugh,
                      > > Sorry, but there is no way that you can prevent rainwater
                      > > coming down the keel-stepped mast.
                      > > The alternative is to seal the bottom of the mast and let
                      > > it collect inside the bottom of the mast.
                      > > Then pump the water overboard and out of the mast as
                      > > needed.
                      > > My Nic 33 has the same problem with sponging the shallow
                      > > bilge but I use the excuse to get out
                      > > onto the boat after every heavy rainshower.
                      > > David Burnham
                      > > Time... hull #19
                      > >
                      >

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