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Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat

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  • William E. Roesner
    Denece, Cant say as to what exactly your problem might be, but I do know that under certain circumstances the brain gets signals that it shouldn t / cant
    Message 1 of 12 , Jan 13, 2008
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      Denece,
      Cant say as to what exactly your problem might be, but I do know that
      under certain circumstances the ' brain' gets signals that it shouldn't
      / cant fire up for various reasons. ( low battery, air in the diesel
      line, fouled glow plug, etc.) After something like 5 repeated attempts
      at refiring by an owner/ operator the 'brain' shuts down and has to be
      unlocked, usually by a qualified service agent with the proper
      electrical hardware / brain which will diagnose the problem and upon
      correction erase the 5 failed accounts from the systems brain and
      allow the refiring.
      I did have a problem with a low battery at seasons beginning in
      Scotland in 2002 and the above was how I got it sorted. Other than that
      the system has been flawless since installation in 2000 ( and I haven't
      even had to change the glow plug ( maybe just lucky) but I do use the
      heater on a regular and frequent basis sailing northern waters in
      Scandinavia and Maine and I love it !
      Bill R.
      CN 31-113
      Blueprint

      On Jan 13, 2008, at 3:34 PM, Denece Vincent wrote:

      > Simon, and All
      >  
      > We have the Eberspacher. Installed it ourselves from a kit we sent for
      > from Pumpkin Marine. No major concerns with the install except cutting
      > all those holes in the cabinetry for the ductwork!  It worked great
      > the first year. The second year I often had to fiddle with its fuse to
      > get it to light up (the little electrical panel with controls would
      > not come on when the circuit was electrified). The we went to the
      > tropics....   Now I  need it and after working fine for a few days it
      > quit and  I can't get it to light up at all. I know its tiny 'brain'
      > is preset to automatically shut off in case of any problem being
      > sensed. But this is ridiculous! All the connections ,etc, look fine.
      > Anybody got a guess?
      >  
      > Denece
      >  
      >  
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: Simon Rayfield
      >> To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
      >> Sent: 1/13/2008 1:49:01 PM
      >> Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>  
      >> Rick
      >>  
      >> Eberspachers are fairly standard here in Europe for heating boats
      >> and caravans.  They are fitted to most trucks, buses and commercial
      >> vehicles and often turn up secondhand on Ebay, etc., or better still
      >> buy from a truck/lorry breaker.  Using diesel fuel and supplying
      >> hot/dry air to the boat they are safe and ideal.
      >>  
      >> Check out the website at
      >> http://www.eberspacher.com/airheating.php?section=airheating
      >>  
      >> Another option is the Taylor heater.  However, initially I would look
      >> at commercial vehicle heaters if they don't have Eberspachers where
      >> you are they will surely have another type of diesel heater.
      >>  
      >> Best of luck
      >>  
      >> simon
      >> #Dediou
      >>  
      >>  
      >>> ----- Original Message -----
      >>> From: alby793
      >>> To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
      >>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:55 PM
      >>> Subject: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> Mornin' all,
      >>>
      >>> Wintering over (unintentionally) here in Mystic, CT, I have come
      >>> face-
      >>> to-face with an unanticipated problem: How do I heat the Boat
      >>> sufficiently to live aboard until Spring?
      >>>
      >>> Initially, I was using a couple of electric heaters but they are more
      >>> than the eectrical system/inverter can handle. Rather than re-work
      >>> the
      >>> electrics, I am thinking about a permanent heater/furnace for the
      >>> boat.
      >>> I was wondering if anyone has a Dicjinson/PreLuke/ Sig Marine hearter
      >>> on their boat? If so, what type (which fuel) and where did you locate
      >>> it? Did you have any installation problems or post installation
      >>> problems?
      >>>
      >>> Thanks for your help!
      >>>
      >>> Rick Albamonti
      >>> S/V ABISHAG
      >>> CN 39/31
      >>>
      >>>
      >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
      >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      >>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date:
      >>> 11/01/2008 18:09
      >
      >
    • William E. Roesner
      Graham, I think that the more and harder you use them the better they run. This has been my experience anyway. I run mine on the hard all the time ( when I m
      Message 2 of 12 , Jan 13, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Graham,
        I think that the more and harder you use them the better they run.
        This has been my experience anyway.
        I run mine on the hard all the time ( when I'm at the boat). I just
        have to hook up an extension cord to my battery charger to keep the
        battery juice up.
        Cheers,
        Bill R.
        CN 31-113
        Blueprint

        On Jan 13, 2008, at 4:04 PM, Graham wrote:

        > Hi Rick,
        > I installed a new Eberspacher 3kw blown air deisel heating system a
        > couple of years ago now. The installation is very neat, main heater
        > under the port cockpit locker floor with ducting to the saloon (under
        > the chart table) and into the aft cabin (below the dresser). As the
        > air is blown in low down your feet don't freeze!. I try to only use
        > this unit when away from the marina etc and use an electrical heater
        > on the hard, where I am at the moment (it's un-metered!). Be careful
        > about buying cheap ones on ebay, the are generally 1kw and won't make
        > much of a job of heating the boat. The newer units have 'fault codes'
        > should you not be able to start the unit or it fails etc, the older
        > ones don't have this feature and sometimes tracking a fault can be a
        > difficult. A friend has fitted an ex ebay one to his yahct and there
        > is always a smell of unburnt fumes - horrid - i think these old ex
        > ambulance / lorry units get a very hard life.
        > Hope this helps - if you want pictures let me know i'll e mail some,
        > Out of interest a motorboat 42ft next to mine runs one of the 5kw
        > versions in preference to electric fan heaters in the marina (as it
        > heats the boat better in his view) and has done so for 3 years now
        > with no major problems.
        > Regards,
        > Graham
        > S/V Niquita (CN39)
        >
        > --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "alby793"
        > <richard.albamonti@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Mornin' all,
        > >
        > > Wintering over (unintentionally) here in Mystic, CT, I have come
        > face-
        > > to-face with an unanticipated problem: How do I heat the Boat
        > > sufficiently to live aboard until Spring?
        > >
        > > Initially, I was using a couple of electric heaters but they are
        > more
        > > than the eectrical system/inverter can handle. Rather than re-work
        > the
        > > electrics, I am thinking about a permanent heater/furnace for the
        > boat.
        > > I was wondering if anyone has a Dicjinson/PreLuke/ Sig Marine
        > hearter
        > > on their boat? If so, what type (which fuel) and where did you
        > locate
        > > it? Did you have any installation problems or post installation
        > > problems?
        > >
        > > Thanks for your help!
        > >
        > > Rick Albamonti
        > > S/V ABISHAG
        > > CN 39/31
        > >
        >
        >
        >
      • Denece Vincent
        Thanks, Bill, That was what I expected, but its little control panel doesn r even light up, let alone go thru any trial starts. I knew there was some problem
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 13, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Thanks, Bill,

          That was what I expected, but its little control panel doesn'r even light
          up, let alone go thru any trial starts. I knew there was some problem with
          the fuse so I bypassed it (it goes thru a circuit breaker) but that didn't
          work for long. It worked perfectly for a few days, then stayed lit up but
          the furnace did not work, then nothing comes on.

          I'll puzzle it out eventually, but I was hoping someone else had been thru
          this.

          Thanks

          Denece


          > [Original Message]
          > From: William E. Roesner <blueprintbill@...>
          > To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
          > Date: 1/13/2008 6:00:10 PM
          > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
          >
          > Denece,
          > Cant say as to what exactly your problem might be, but I do know that
          > under certain circumstances the ' brain' gets signals that it shouldn't
          > / cant fire up for various reasons. ( low battery, air in the diesel
          > line, fouled glow plug, etc.) After something like 5 repeated attempts
          > at refiring by an owner/ operator the 'brain' shuts down and has to be
          > unlocked, usually by a qualified service agent with the proper
          > electrical hardware / brain which will diagnose the problem and upon
          > correction erase the 5 failed accounts from the systems brain and
          > allow the refiring.
          > I did have a problem with a low battery at seasons beginning in
          > Scotland in 2002 and the above was how I got it sorted. Other than that
          > the system has been flawless since installation in 2000 ( and I haven't
          > even had to change the glow plug ( maybe just lucky) but I do use the
          > heater on a regular and frequent basis sailing northern waters in
          > Scandinavia and Maine and I love it !
          > Bill R.
          > CN 31-113
          > Blueprint
          >
          > On Jan 13, 2008, at 3:34 PM, Denece Vincent wrote:
          >
          > > Simon, and All
          > > �
          > > We have the Eberspacher. Installed it ourselves from a kit we sent for
          > > from Pumpkin Marine. No major concerns with the install except cutting
          > > all those holes in the cabinetry for the ductwork!� It worked great
          > > the first year. The second year I often had to fiddle with its fuse to
          > > get it to light up (the little electrical panel with controls would
          > > not come on when the circuit was electrified). The we went to the
          > > tropics....�� Now I� need it and after working fine for a few days it
          > > quit and� I can't get it to light up at all. I know its tiny 'brain'
          > > is preset to automatically shut off in case of any problem being
          > > sensed. But this is ridiculous! All the connections ,etc, look fine.
          > > Anybody got a guess?
          > > �
          > > Denece
          > > �
          > > �
          > >> ----- Original Message -----
          > >> From: Simon Rayfield
          > >> To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
          > >> Sent: 1/13/2008 1:49:01 PM
          > >> Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >> �
          > >> Rick
          > >> �
          > >> Eberspachers are fairly standard here in Europe for heating boats
          > >> and�caravans.� They are fitted to most trucks, buses and commercial
          > >> vehicles and often turn up secondhand on Ebay, etc., or better still
          > >> buy from a truck/lorry breaker. �Using diesel fuel and supplying
          > >> hot/dry air to the boat they are safe and ideal.
          > >> �
          > >> Check out the website at
          > >> http://www.eberspacher.com/airheating.php?section=airheating
          > >> �
          > >> Another option is the Taylor heater.� However, initially I would look
          > >> at commercial vehicle heaters if they don't have Eberspachers where
          > >> you are they will surely have another type of diesel heater.
          > >> �
          > >> Best of luck
          > >> �
          > >> simon
          > >> #Dediou
          > >> �
          > >> �
          > >>> ----- Original Message -----
          > >>> From: alby793
          > >>> To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
          > >>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:55 PM
          > >>> Subject: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>> Mornin' all,
          > >>>
          > >>> Wintering over (unintentionally) here in Mystic, CT, I have come
          > >>> face-
          > >>> to-face with an unanticipated problem: How do I heat the Boat
          > >>> sufficiently to live aboard until Spring?
          > >>>
          > >>> Initially, I was using a couple of electric heaters but they are more
          > >>> than the eectrical system/inverter can handle. Rather than re-work
          > >>> the
          > >>> electrics, I am thinking about a permanent heater/furnace for the
          > >>> boat.
          > >>> I was wondering if anyone has a Dicjinson/PreLuke/ Sig Marine hearter
          > >>> on their boat? If so, what type (which fuel) and where did you locate
          > >>> it? Did you have any installation problems or post installation
          > >>> problems?
          > >>>
          > >>> Thanks for your help!
          > >>>
          > >>> Rick Albamonti
          > >>> S/V ABISHAG
          > >>> CN 39/31
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
          > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          > >>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date:
          > >>> 11/01/2008 18:09
          > >
          > >
        • IAN POSTLETHWAITE
          Denese, These units usually have 2 fuses, one for the control panel and one for the heater/blower, 5 amp and 20 amp respectively. You can get the upgrade
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 22, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Denese,
            These units usually have 2 fuses, one for the control panel and one for the heater/blower, 5 amp and 20 amp respectively.
            You can get the upgrade version of the control panel, which allowes the user to interogate the panel readout for the nature of the fault it locks out on and re-set the unit, without the need for an engineer to come along and plug in his laptop.
            Try testing the supply to the unit to see if you have volts at the input wires. As stated by others these units are very voltage sensitive and can lock out on anything less than 11.5 volts or 23 volts for the 24v versions.
            Regards
            Ian
            CN 39 Suki of Shuna
            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Denece Vincent <bluepearl@...>
            To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, 14 January, 2008 1:04:40 AM
            Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat

            Thanks, Bill,

            That was what I expected, but its little control panel doesn'r even light
            up, let alone go thru any trial starts. I knew there was some problem with
            the fuse so I bypassed it (it goes thru a circuit breaker) but that didn't
            work for long.  It worked perfectly for a few days, then stayed lit up but
            the furnace did not work, then nothing comes on.

            I'll puzzle it out eventually, but I was hoping someone else had been thru
            this.

            Thanks

            Denece


            > [Original Message]
            > From: William E. Roesner <
            ymailto="mailto:blueprintbill@...">blueprintbill@...>
            > To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
            > Date: 1/13/2008 6:00:10 PM
            > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
            >
            > Denece,
            > Cant say as to what exactly your problem might be, but I do know that
            > under certain circumstances the ' brain' gets signals that it shouldn't
            > / cant fire up for various reasons. ( low battery, air in the diesel
            > line, fouled glow plug, etc.) After something like 5 repeated attempts
            > at refiring by an owner/ operator the 'brain' shuts down and has to be
            > unlocked, usually by a qualified service agent with the proper
            > electrical hardware / brain which will diagnose the problem and upon
            > correction erase the 5 failed accounts  from the systems
            brain and
            > allow the refiring.
            > I did have a problem with a low battery at seasons beginning in
            > Scotland in 2002 and the above was how I got it sorted. Other than that
            > the system has been flawless since installation in 2000 ( and I haven't
            > even had to change the glow plug ( maybe just lucky) but I do use the
            > heater on a regular and frequent basis sailing northern waters in
            > Scandinavia and Maine and I love it !
            > Bill R.
            > CN 31-113
            > Blueprint
            >
            > On Jan 13, 2008, at 3:34 PM, Denece Vincent wrote:
            >
            > > Simon, and All
            > >  
            > > We have the Eberspacher. Installed it ourselves from a kit we sent for
            > > from Pumpkin Marine. No major concerns with the install except cutting
            > > all those holes in the cabinetry for the ductwork!  It worked great
            > > the first year. The second year I often had to
            fiddle with its fuse to
            > > get it to light up (the little electrical panel with controls would
            > > not come on when the circuit was electrified). The we went to the
            > > tropics....   Now I  need it and after working fine for a few days it
            > > quit and  I can't get it to light up at all. I know its tiny 'brain'
            > > is preset to automatically shut off in case of any problem being
            > > sensed. But this is ridiculous! All the connections ,etc, look fine.
            > > Anybody got a guess?
            > >  
            > > Denece
            > >  
            > >  
            > >> ----- Original Message -----
            > >> From: Simon Rayfield
            > >> To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
            > >> Sent: 1/13/2008 1:49:01 PM
            > >> Subject: Re:
            [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>  
            > >> Rick
            > >>  
            > >> Eberspachers are fairly standard here in Europe for heating boats
            > >> and caravans.  They are fitted to most trucks, buses and commercial
            > >> vehicles and often turn up secondhand on Ebay, etc., or better still
            > >> buy from a truck/lorry breaker.  Using diesel fuel and supplying
            > >> hot/dry air to the boat they are safe and ideal.
            > >>  
            > >> Check out the website at
            > >> http://www.eberspacher.com/airheating.php?section=airheating
            > >>  
            > >> Another option is the Taylor heater.  However, initially I would look
            > >> at commercial vehicle
            heaters if they don't have Eberspachers where
            > >> you are they will surely have another type of diesel heater.
            > >>  
            > >> Best of luck
            > >>  
            > >> simon
            > >> #Dediou
            > >>  
            > >>  
            > >>> ----- Original Message -----
            > >>> From: alby793
            > >>> To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
            > >>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:55 PM
            > >>> Subject: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>> Mornin' all,
            > >>>
            > >>> Wintering over (unintentionally) here in Mystic, CT, I have come
            > >>> face-
            > >>> to-face with an unanticipated problem: How do I heat the
            Boat
            > >>> sufficiently to live aboard until Spring?
            > >>>
            > >>> Initially, I was using a couple of electric heaters but they are more
            > >>> than the eectrical system/inverter can handle. Rather than re-work
            > >>> the
            > >>> electrics, I am thinking about a permanent heater/furnace for the
            > >>> boat.
            > >>> I was wondering if anyone has a Dicjinson/PreLuke/ Sig Marine hearter
            > >>> on their boat? If so, what type (which fuel) and where did you locate
            > >>> it? Did you have any installation problems or post installation
            > >>> problems?
            > >>>
            > >>> Thanks for your help!
            > >>>
            > >>> Rick Albamonti
            > >>> S/V ABISHAG
            > >>> CN 39/31
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > >>> No virus
            found in this incoming message.
            > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > >>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date:
            > >>> 11/01/2008 18:09
            > > 
            > >   





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          • Denece Vincent
            Of Course! Why didn t I think of that! I just assumed there would be adequate voltage since there it plenty of juice in the batteries! I ll let you know what
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 23, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Of Course! Why didn't I think of that! I just assumed there would  be adequate voltage since there it plenty of juice in the batteries!
               
              I'll let you know what I find out!
               
              Thanks, Ian
               
              Denece
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: 1/22/2008 8:08:53 AM
              Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat

              Denese,
              These units usually have 2 fuses, one for the control panel and one for the heater/blower, 5 amp and 20 amp respectively.
              You can get the upgrade version of the control panel, which allowes the user to interogate the panel readout for the nature of the fault it locks out on and re-set the unit, without the need for an engineer to come along and plug in his laptop.
              Try testing the supply to the unit to see if you have volts at the input wires. As stated by others these units are very voltage sensitive and can lock out on anything less than 11.5 volts or 23 volts for the 24v versions.
              Regards
              Ian
              CN 39 Suki of Shuna
              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Denece Vincent <bluepearl@jps. net>
              To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
              Sent: Monday, 14 January, 2008 1:04:40 AM
              Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat

              Thanks, Bill,

              That was what I expected, but its little control panel doesn'r even light
              up, let alone go thru any trial starts. I knew there was some problem with
              the fuse so I bypassed it (it goes thru a circuit breaker) but that didn't
              work for long.  It worked perfectly for a few days, then stayed lit up but
              the furnace did not work, then nothing comes on.

              I'll puzzle it out eventually, but I was hoping someone else had been thru
              this.

              Thanks

              Denece


              > [Original Message]
              > From: William E. Roesner <blueprintbill@ comcast.net>
              > To: <campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com>
              > Date: 1/13/2008 6:00:10 PM
              > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
              >
              > Denece,
              > Cant say as to what exactly your problem might be, but I do know that
              > under certain circumstances the ' brain' gets signals that it shouldn't
              > / cant fire up for various reasons. ( low battery, air in the diesel
              > line, fouled glow plug, etc.) After something like 5 repeated attempts
              > at refiring by an owner/ operator the 'brain' shuts down and has to be
              > unlocked, usually by a qualified service agent with the proper
              > electrical hardware / brain which will diagnose the problem and upon
              > correction erase the 5 failed accounts  from the systems brain and
              > allow the refiring.
              > I did have a problem with a low battery at seasons beginning in
              > Scotland in 2002 and the above was how I got it sorted. Other than that
              > the system has been flawless since installation in 2000 ( and I haven't
              > even had to change the glow plug ( maybe just lucky) but I do use the
              > heater on a regular and frequent basis sailing northern waters in
              > Scandinavia and Maine and I love it !
              > Bill R.
              > CN 31-113
              > Blueprint
              >
              > On Jan 13, 2008, at 3:34 PM, Denece Vincent wrote:
              >
              > > Simon, and All
              > >  
              > > We have the Eberspacher. Installed it ourselves from a kit we sent for
              > > from Pumpkin Marine. No major concerns with the install except cutting
              > > all those holes in the cabinetry for the ductwork!  It worked great
              > > the first year. The second year I often had to fiddle with its fuse to
              > > get it to light up (the little electrical panel with controls would
              > > not come on when the circuit was electrified) . The we went to the
              > > tropics....   Now I  need it and after working fine for a few days it
              > > quit and  I can't get it to light up at all. I know its tiny 'brain'
              > > is preset to automatically shut off in case of any problem being
              > > sensed. But this is ridiculous! All the connections ,etc, look fine.
              > > Anybody got a guess?
              > >  
              > > Denece
              > >  
              > >  
              > >> ----- Original Message -----
              > >> From: Simon Rayfield
              > >> To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
              > >> Sent: 1/13/2008 1:49:01 PM
              > >> Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>  
              > >> Rick
              > >>  
              > >> Eberspachers are fairly standard here in Europe for heating boats
              > >> and caravans.  They are fitted to most trucks, buses and commercial
              > >> vehicles and often turn up secondhand on Ebay, etc., or better still
              > >> buy from a truck/lorry breaker.  Using diesel fuel and supplying
              > >> hot/dry air to the boat they are safe and ideal.
              > >>  
              > >> Check out the website at
              > >> http://www.eberspac her.com/airheati ng.php?section= airheating
              > >>  
              > >> Another option is the Taylor heater.  However, initially I would look
              > >> at commercial vehicle heaters if they don't have Eberspachers where
              > >> you are they will surely have another type of diesel heater.
              > >>  
              > >> Best of luck
              > >>  
              > >> simon
              > >> #Dediou
              > >>  
              > >>  
              > >>> ----- Original Message -----
              > >>> From: alby793
              > >>> To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
              > >>> Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 1:55 PM
              > >>> Subject: [campernicholson] Heating the Boat
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> Mornin' all,
              > >>>
              > >>> Wintering over (unintentionally) here in Mystic, CT, I have come
              > >>> face-
              > >>> to-face with an unanticipated problem: How do I heat the Boat
              > >>> sufficiently to live aboard until Spring?
              > >>>
              > >>> Initially, I was using a couple of electric heaters but they are more
              > >>> than the eectrical system/inverter can handle. Rather than re-work
              > >>> the
              > >>> electrics, I am thinking about a permanent heater/furnace for the
              > >>> boat.
              > >>> I was wondering if anyone has a Dicjinson/PreLuke/ Sig Marine hearter
              > >>> on their boat? If so, what type (which fuel) and where did you locate
              > >>> it? Did you have any installation problems or post installation
              > >>> problems?
              > >>>
              > >>> Thanks for your help!
              > >>>
              > >>> Rick Albamonti
              > >>> S/V ABISHAG
              > >>> CN 39/31
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >>> No virus found in this incoming message.
              > >>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > >>> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.19.1/1220 - Release Date:
              > >>> 11/01/2008 18:09
              > > 
              > >   





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