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Re: Cabin side ports

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  • rogerlud
    Bob I replaced all four port seals in 2002. I hsve pictures of the rubber seal in Photos under Gebo Port Gasket . Getting the rubber gasket in was no easy
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 1, 2007
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      Bob

      I replaced all four port seals in 2002. I hsve pictures of the
      rubber seal in Photos under 'Gebo Port Gasket'. Getting the rubber
      gasket in was no easy thing, I worked the gasket in by pressing it
      in using soapy water in squit bottle for lubricant and used a
      tablespoon to smooth it in place as I went along.

      What are you using between the glass and aluminum frame?
      I tried a silcone sealant but after 2 attempts couldn't get a water
      tight seal, so on third try I used a ribbon sealant I got from a
      local auto windshield shop. It worked great still no leaks. I got
      the smallest diameter he had and stretch it out thinner, excess will
      squeese out on the outside glass, which is a pain to clean up. Note
      no leaks in 5+ years.

      Your screws for the frame must be longer than mine, but the holes
      that looked too large I used a little epoxy or polester resin.

      It's a lot easier when done by two people.

      Hope this helps!

      Roger

      Pagan Knight N31/107


      --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "bvitalius"
      <bob.vitalius@...> wrote:
      >
      > I have a Nic 31 and have just pulled the side cabin ports out to
      > replace the "glass" (lexan). These are the long 5' non opening ones
      in
      > the main cabin. I don't know whether they are similar from one Nic
      > model to another but they kind of look the same (at least from a
      > distance) as on the the 35 and 39. I have ordered new gaskets and
      new
      > lexan. Has anyone else had experience with this project. The
      outside
      > frame (aluminum extrusion) was screwed into the inside frame with
      self
      > tapping screws. The pointed ends of the screws were apparently cut
      off
      > to accomdate the vinyl interior trim. In the process they bunged up
      > many of the holes so self tapping screws may not be the replacement
      > answer. I am considering dilling out the interior frame and
      replacing
      > the self tapping screws with bolts and nuts. I think that means the
      > interior vinyl molding will no longer fit (over the nuts).
      > Thoughts?
      > Additionally, has anyone had experience with replacing the gasket
      that
      > holds the "glass" in the frame. When I pulled the old gasket out I
      > realized my fears that it was going to be a b...h to get the new
      one
      > in, fit and seated properly. Any intructions to offer? Is there
      some
      > kind of tool to get the gasket in? Any ideas appreciated.
      > Bob V. Blythe Spirit
      >
    • bvitalius
      Roger, I am back to the replacement of the fixed side ports project. Brewers ( Gebo s retail distributor) sent me the wrong gaskets. I had pictures you had
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 17, 2008
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        Roger, I am back to the replacement of the fixed side ports project.
        Brewers ( Gebo's retail distributor) sent me the wrong gaskets. I had
        pictures you had provided of the "right' gaskets but have changed
        computers and can not locate them. Would you mind resending them or
        reminding me how to access them?
        Thank you,
        Bob
        Blythe Spirit
        --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "rogerlud" <pknight107@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Bob
        >
        > I replaced all four port seals in 2002. I hsve pictures of the
        > rubber seal in Photos under 'Gebo Port Gasket'. Getting the rubber
        > gasket in was no easy thing, I worked the gasket in by pressing it
        > in using soapy water in squit bottle for lubricant and used a
        > tablespoon to smooth it in place as I went along.
        >
        > What are you using between the glass and aluminum frame?
        > I tried a silcone sealant but after 2 attempts couldn't get a water
        > tight seal, so on third try I used a ribbon sealant I got from a
        > local auto windshield shop. It worked great still no leaks. I got
        > the smallest diameter he had and stretch it out thinner, excess
        will
        > squeese out on the outside glass, which is a pain to clean up.
        Note
        > no leaks in 5+ years.
        >
        > Your screws for the frame must be longer than mine, but the holes
        > that looked too large I used a little epoxy or polester resin.
        >
        > It's a lot easier when done by two people.
        >
        > Hope this helps!
        >
        > Roger
        >
        > Pagan Knight N31/107
        >
        >
        > --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "bvitalius"
        > <bob.vitalius@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I have a Nic 31 and have just pulled the side cabin ports out to
        > > replace the "glass" (lexan). These are the long 5' non opening
        ones
        > in
        > > the main cabin. I don't know whether they are similar from one
        Nic
        > > model to another but they kind of look the same (at least from a
        > > distance) as on the the 35 and 39. I have ordered new gaskets and
        > new
        > > lexan. Has anyone else had experience with this project. The
        > outside
        > > frame (aluminum extrusion) was screwed into the inside frame with
        > self
        > > tapping screws. The pointed ends of the screws were apparently
        cut
        > off
        > > to accomdate the vinyl interior trim. In the process they bunged
        up
        > > many of the holes so self tapping screws may not be the
        replacement
        > > answer. I am considering dilling out the interior frame and
        > replacing
        > > the self tapping screws with bolts and nuts. I think that means
        the
        > > interior vinyl molding will no longer fit (over the nuts).
        > > Thoughts?
        > > Additionally, has anyone had experience with replacing the gasket
        > that
        > > holds the "glass" in the frame. When I pulled the old gasket out
        I
        > > realized my fears that it was going to be a b...h to get the new
        > one
        > > in, fit and seated properly. Any intructions to offer? Is there
        > some
        > > kind of tool to get the gasket in? Any ideas appreciated.
        > > Bob V. Blythe Spirit
        > >
        >
      • mcverlaque
        We are in the process of replacing the glass in our side ports, too, and found the gasket pictured under Gebo Port Gasket looks almost identical to the one
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 28, 2008
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          We are in the process of replacing the "glass" in our side ports, too,
          and found the gasket pictured under "Gebo Port Gasket" looks almost
          identical to the one we have removed. Does anyone know where the Gebo
          Gasket can be acquired and is there a part number?

          Thanks
          Mary & Christian / S/V I Wanda a Nicholson 40 pilothouse sloop
        • Vitalius, Bob
          Mary & Christian I am replacing the stationary reports on Blythe Spirit, my Nic 31. I don t know whether they are the same with the same gaskets you may need.
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 28, 2008
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            Mary & Christian

            I am replacing the stationary reports on Blythe Spirit, my Nic 31. I don’t know whether they are the same with the same gaskets you may need. The Gebo retail representative in US is:

            Brewers Pilots Point Maina

            Westbrook, Conn.

            860-399-7906

            The person I am working with in the parts dept. is John Werner.  jwerner@...

            They get the gaskets from Wabesto.

            John is working on getting me the correct gasket right now. ( they had sent me the wrong one) I went over the photo’s with him as we both viewed them on the computer while on a phone call. We decided that it would be best to actually send him a sample of the old gasket I have removed. He received them Weds. and when I talked to him yesterday he was working with Wabasto to identify exactly the right one. I told him once we solved it I would post the part # on this site and he should mark his files so as other CN owners call he will have a good handle on it.

            I will keep you posted.

            Bob

            Blythe Spirit -Nic 31

             

            From: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com [mailto:campernicholson@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mcverlaque
            Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 9:50 AM
            To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Cabin side ports

             

            We are in the process of replacing the "glass" in our side ports, too,
            and found the gasket pictured under "Gebo Port Gasket" looks almost
            identical to the one we have removed. Does anyone know where the Gebo
            Gasket can be acquired and is there a part number?

            Thanks
            Mary & Christian / S/V I Wanda a Nicholson 40 pilothouse sloop

          • William E. Roesner
            Bob, I m following your ordeal re port light gasketing with great interest and much sympathy. I hope you document it well as I ll be one of your next
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 29, 2008
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              Bob,
              I'm following your ordeal re port light gasketing with great interest
              and much sympathy. I hope you document it well as I'll be one of your
              next customers.
              Cheers to you and Mary and Christian,
              Bill R.
              SV Blueprint
              CN31-113

              On Mar 28, 2008, at 6:29 PM, Vitalius, Bob wrote:

              > Mary & Christian
              >
              > I am replacing the stationary reports on Blythe Spirit, my Nic 31. I
              > don’t know whether they are the same with the same gaskets you may
              > need. The Gebo retail representative in US is:
              >
              > Brewers Pilots Point Maina
              >
              > Westbrook, Conn.
              >
              > 860-399-7906
              >
              > The person I am working with in the parts dept. is John Werner. 
              > jwerner@...
              >
              > They get the gaskets from Wabesto.
              >
              > John is working on getting me the correct gasket right now. ( they had
              > sent me the wrong one) I went over the photo’s with him as we both
              > viewed them on the computer while on a phone call. We decided that it
              > would be best to actually send him a sample of the old gasket I have
              > removed. He received them Weds. and when I talked to him yesterday he
              > was working with Wabasto to identify exactly the right one. I told him
              > once we solved it I would post the part # on this site and he should
              > mark his files so as other CN owners call he will have a good handle
              > on it.
              >
              > I will keep you posted.
              >
              > Bob
              >
              > Blythe Spirit -Nic 31
              >
              >  
              >
              > From: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:campernicholson@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mcverlaque
              > Sent: Friday, March 28, 2008 9:50 AM
              > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Cabin side ports
              >
              >  
              >
              > We are in the process of replacing the "glass" in our side ports, too,
              > and found the gasket pictured under "Gebo Port Gasket" looks almost
              > identical to the one we have removed. Does anyone know where the Gebo
              > Gasket can be acquired and is there a part number?
              >
              > Thanks
              > Mary & Christian / S/V I Wanda a Nicholson 40 pilothouse sloop
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • iona350
              Mary and Christian and the group, Jack and I had problems with the port lights, or side lights or whateven you call them--the tempered glass side windows on
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 30, 2008
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                Mary and Christian and the group,

                Jack and I had problems with the port lights, or side lights or
                whateven you call them--the tempered glass side windows on IONA. The
                gaskets were shot!! They didn't leak on a light rainy day, but with
                waves crashing about, or a hard driving rain, they leaked badly. We
                were in a quandry as to how to fix them when we discovered "coax
                seal". Actually we were in Bermuda when the problem first appeared
                and we had to do something in a hurry or forever be wet everytime we
                used the head, and coax seal was the only thing that remotely seemed
                suitable. So it was in desperation that we first fixed the head
                window with this stuff. Once we saw how well it worked we brought
                lots back in our luggage and did all the rest of the windows. What
                do they dsy about necessity being the mother on invention? I am sure
                the inventors never dreamed of the many uses this tape would see.

                On our CN 35, as on all, I think, there is a moulded recess where the
                gasket fits, then the tempered glass window, then a crome frame that
                holds everything in place, fitted into a moulded flange screwed in
                place. We took all this apart, one window at a time. We cleaned out
                the old gasket--much of which fell in dried-out and crumbled pieces
                into our hands( no wonder the windows leaked!). We cleaned off the
                recess with solvents etc so that it was really clean. Then we
                placed the sticky coax seal into the gasket recess. We carefully
                reset the window and chrome frame; bedded all the frame screws with
                good bedding compound and voila! no more leaks.

                The coax seal is cheap and easy to buy at almost any hardware, or TV
                place, etc, but Radio Shack has it in abundance. It is a pliable,
                sticky, black, rubbery type stuff that is about 1/2 inch wide and
                comes in a roll with wax paper separation in the roll because it
                sticks to itself and almost anything else. It is used in VHF marine
                radio applications where the coax fitting attaches to the antenna.
                It keeps out water and salt, etc from messing up the connections.
                We have found lots of other uses for the stuff on the boat aside from
                its obvious and intended use.

                We realize that this is not a permanent fix (but then neither was the
                original stuff. But so far--crossed fingers--the stuff is still
                pliable and keeping out the water. We keep rolls of this aboard and
                found this to be a cheap and easy fix that really works.

                I am not sure that the windows on your CN 40 are the same, but, hey,
                its worth a try--the worst that can happen is that it doesn't work,
                and you will have little invested except a bit of time. But I think
                you might be surprised.

                Sincerely, Crissie Staats -- IONA -- CN 35 # 135
              • JIM TEIPEN
                We discovered some leakage of the side ports during our return from Hawaii to California in the summer of 2005. It wasn t exactly a river but just enough to
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 30, 2008
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                  We discovered some leakage of the side ports during our return from Hawaii to California in the summer of 2005.  It wasn't exactly a river but just enough to drive us crazy when trying to use the main salon bunks.  Over the following winter, we resealed all of the ports using clear silicone sealant.  It looks great and no more leakage problems so far.  We also replaced both of the deck hatches and completely disassembled and resealed all parts of the main hatch.  A lot of work but a dry boat is nice to have!

                  Jim
                  Alegria
                  CN 35 - 68




                  To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                  From: chivaree@...
                  Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:04:16 +0000
                  Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Cabin side ports

                  Mary and Christian and the group,

                  Jack and I had problems with the port lights, or side lights or
                  whateven you call them--the tempered glass side windows on IONA. The
                  gaskets were shot!! They didn't leak on a light rainy day, but with
                  waves crashing about, or a hard driving rain, they leaked badly. We
                  were in a quandry as to how to fix them when we discovered "coax
                  seal". Actually we were in Bermuda when the problem first appeared
                  and we had to do something in a hurry or forever be wet everytime we
                  used the head, and coax seal was the only thing that remotely seemed
                  suitable. So it was in desperation that we first fixed the head
                  window with this stuff. Once we saw how well it worked we brought
                  lots back in our luggage and did all the rest of the windows. What
                  do they dsy about necessity being the mother on invention? I am sure
                  the inventors never dreamed of the many uses this tape would see.

                  On our CN 35, as on all, I think, there is a moulded recess where the
                  gasket fits, then the tempered glass window, then a crome frame that
                  holds everything in place, fitted into a moulded flange screwed in
                  place. We took all this apart, one window at a time. We cleaned out
                  the old gasket--much of which fell in dried-out and crumbled pieces
                  into our hands( no wonder the windows leaked!). We cleaned off the
                  recess with solvents etc so that it was really clean. Then we
                  placed the sticky coax seal into the gasket recess. We carefully
                  reset the window and chrome frame; bedded all the frame screws with
                  good bedding compound and voila! no more leaks.

                  The coax seal is cheap and easy to buy at almost any hardware, or TV
                  place, etc, but Radio Shack has it in abundance. It is a pliable,
                  sticky, black, rubbery type stuff that is about 1/2 inch wide and
                  comes in a roll with wax paper separation in the roll because it
                  sticks to itself and almost anything else. It is used in VHF marine
                  radio applications where the coax fitting attaches to the antenna.
                  It keeps out water and salt, etc from messing up the connections.
                  We have found lots of other uses for the stuff on the boat aside from
                  its obvious and intended use.

                  We realize that this is not a permanent fix (but then neither was the
                  original stuff. But so far--crossed fingers--the stuff is still
                  pliable and keeping out the water. We keep rolls of this aboard and
                  found this to be a cheap and easy fix that really works.

                  I am not sure that the windows on your CN 40 are the same, but, hey,
                  its worth a try--the worst that can happen is that it doesn't work,
                  and you will have little invested except a bit of time. But I think
                  you might be surprised.

                  Sincerely, Crissie Staats -- IONA -- CN 35 # 135


                • William E. Roesner
                  Coax may also be known as glazing tape available from commercial window fabricators / glass window shops. The port lights in the Nicholson 31 were
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 31, 2008
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                    'Coax' may also be known as 'glazing tape' available from commercial
                    window fabricators / glass window shops. The port lights in the
                    Nicholson 31 were originally installed using this material and it is an
                    extremely effective product.
                    Bill
                    SV Blueprint
                    CN31-113

                    On Mar 30, 2008, at 9:04 PM, iona350 wrote:

                    > Mary and Christian and the group,
                    >
                    > Jack and I had problems with the port lights, or side lights or
                    > whateven you call them--the tempered glass side windows on IONA. The
                    > gaskets were shot!! They didn't leak on a light rainy day, but with
                    > waves crashing about, or a hard driving rain, they leaked badly. We
                    > were in a quandry as to how to fix them when we discovered "coax
                    > seal". Actually we were in Bermuda when the problem first appeared
                    > and we had to do something in a hurry or forever be wet everytime we
                    > used the head, and coax seal was the only thing that remotely seemed
                    > suitable. So it was in desperation that we first fixed the head
                    > window with this stuff. Once we saw how well it worked we brought
                    > lots back in our luggage and did all the rest of the windows. What
                    > do they dsy about necessity being the mother on invention? I am sure
                    > the inventors never dreamed of the many uses this tape would see.
                    >
                    > On our CN 35, as on all, I think, there is a moulded recess where the
                    > gasket fits, then the tempered glass window, then a crome frame that
                    > holds everything in place, fitted into a moulded flange screwed in
                    > place. We took all this apart, one window at a time. We cleaned out
                    > the old gasket--much of which fell in dried-out and crumbled pieces
                    > into our hands( no wonder the windows leaked!). We cleaned off the
                    > recess with solvents etc so that it was really clean. Then we
                    > placed the sticky coax seal into the gasket recess. We carefully
                    > reset the window and chrome frame; bedded all the frame screws with
                    > good bedding compound and voila! no more leaks.
                    >
                    > The coax seal is cheap and easy to buy at almost any hardware, or TV
                    > place, etc, but Radio Shack has it in abundance. It is a pliable,
                    > sticky, black, rubbery type stuff that is about 1/2 inch wide and
                    > comes in a roll with wax paper separation in the roll because it
                    > sticks to itself and almost anything else. It is used in VHF marine
                    > radio applications where the coax fitting attaches to the antenna.
                    > It keeps out water and salt, etc from messing up the connections.
                    > We have found lots of other uses for the stuff on the boat aside from
                    > its obvious and intended use.
                    >
                    > We realize that this is not a permanent fix (but then neither was the
                    > original stuff. But so far--crossed fingers--the stuff is still
                    > pliable and keeping out the water. We keep rolls of this aboard and
                    > found this to be a cheap and easy fix that really works.
                    >
                    > I am not sure that the windows on your CN 40 are the same, but, hey,
                    > its worth a try--the worst that can happen is that it doesn't work,
                    > and you will have little invested except a bit of time. But I think
                    > you might be surprised.
                    >
                    > Sincerely, Crissie Staats -- IONA -- CN 35 # 135
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Denece Vincent
                    We put this stuff on in about 95-6 and its still good. What we got was called Sika tape. Denece ... From: iona350 To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 31, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      We put this stuff on in about '95-6 and its still good. What we got was called Sika tape.
                       
                      Denece
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: iona350
                      Sent: 3/30/2008 9:04:20 PM
                      Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Cabin side ports

                      Mary and Christian and the group,

                      Jack and I had problems with the port lights, or side lights or
                      whateven you call them--the tempered glass side windows on IONA. The
                      gaskets were shot!! They didn't leak on a light rainy day, but with
                      waves crashing about, or a hard driving rain, they leaked badly. We
                      were in a quandry as to how to fix them when we discovered "coax
                      seal". Actually we were in Bermuda when the problem first appeared
                      and we had to do something in a hurry or forever be wet everytime we
                      used the head, and coax seal was the only thing that remotely seemed
                      suitable. So it was in desperation that we first fixed the head
                      window with this stuff. Once we saw how well it worked we brought
                      lots back in our luggage and did all the rest of the windows. What
                      do they dsy about necessity being the mother on invention? I am sure
                      the inventors never dreamed of the many uses this tape would see.

                      On our CN 35, as on all, I think, there is a moulded recess where the
                      gasket fits, then the tempered glass window, then a crome frame that
                      holds everything in place, fitted into a moulded flange screwed in
                      place. We took all this apart, one window at a time. We cleaned out
                      the old gasket--much of which fell in dried-out and crumbled pieces
                      into our hands( no wonder the windows leaked!). We cleaned off the
                      recess with solvents etc so that it was really clean. Then we
                      placed the sticky coax seal into the gasket recess. We carefully
                      reset the window and chrome frame; bedded all the frame screws with
                      good bedding compound and voila! no more leaks.

                      The coax seal is cheap and easy to buy at almost any hardware, or TV
                      place, etc, but Radio Shack has it in abundance. It is a pliable,
                      sticky, black, rubbery type stuff that is about 1/2 inch wide and
                      comes in a roll with wax paper separation in the roll because it
                      sticks to itself and almost anything else. It is used in VHF marine
                      radio applications where the coax fitting attaches to the antenna.
                      It keeps out water and salt, etc from messing up the connections.
                      We have found lots of other uses for the stuff on the boat aside from
                      its obvious and intended use.

                      We realize that this is not a permanent fix (but then neither was the
                      original stuff. But so far--crossed fingers--the stuff is still
                      pliable and keeping out the water. We keep rolls of this aboard and
                      found this to be a cheap and easy fix that really works.

                      I am not sure that the windows on your CN 40 are the same, but, hey,
                      its worth a try--the worst that can happen is that it doesn't work,
                      and you will have little invested except a bit of time. But I think
                      you might be surprised.

                      Sincerely, Crissie Staats -- IONA -- CN 35 # 135

                    • Thomas J. Stanton
                      ... From: Denece Vincent To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 7:25 PM Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Re: Cabin side ports We put
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 1, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, March 31, 2008 7:25 PM
                        Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Re: Cabin side ports

                        We put this stuff on in about '95-6 and its still good. What we got was called Sika tape.
                         
                        Denece
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: iona350
                        Sent: 3/30/2008 9:04:20 PM
                        Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Cabin side ports

                        Mary and Christian and the group,

                        Jack and I had problems with the port lights, or side lights or
                        whateven you call them--the tempered glass side windows on IONA. The
                        gaskets were shot!! They didn't leak on a light rainy day, but with
                        waves crashing about, or a hard driving rain, they leaked badly. We
                        were in a quandry as to how to fix them when we discovered "coax
                        seal". Actually we were in Bermuda when the problem first appeared
                        and we had to do something in a hurry or forever be wet everytime we
                        used the head, and coax seal was the only thing that remotely seemed
                        suitable. So it was in desperation that we first fixed the head
                        window with this stuff. Once we saw how well it worked we brought
                        lots back in our luggage and did all the rest of the windows. What
                        do they dsy about necessity being the mother on invention? I am sure
                        the inventors never dreamed of the many uses this tape would see.

                        On our CN 35, as o! n all, I think, there is a moulded recess where the
                        gasket fits, then the tempered glass window, then a crome frame that
                        holds everything in place, fitted into a moulded flange screwed in
                        place. We took all this apart, one window at a time. We cleaned out
                        the old gasket--much of which fell in dried-out and crumbled pieces
                        into our hands( no wonder the windows leaked!). We cleaned off the
                        recess with solvents etc so that it was really clean. Then we
                        placed the sticky coax seal into the gasket recess. We carefully
                        reset the window and chrome frame; bedded all the frame screws with
                        good bedding compound and voila! no more leaks.

                        The coax seal is cheap and easy to buy at almost any hardware, or TV
                        place, etc, but Radio Shack has it in abundance. It is a pliable,
                        sticky, black, rubbery type stuff that is about 1/2 inch wide and
                        comes in a roll with wax paper separation in the roll because it
                        sticks to itself and almost ! anything else. It is used in VHF marine
                        radio applications where t he coax fitting attaches to the antenna.
                        It keeps out water and salt, etc from messing up the connections.
                        We have found lots of other uses for the stuff on the boat aside from
                        its obvious and intended use.

                        We realize that this is not a permanent fix (but then neither was the
                        original stuff. But so far--crossed fingers--the stuff is still
                        pliable and keeping out the water. We keep rolls of this aboard and
                        found this to be a cheap and easy fix that really works.

                        I am not sure that the windows on your CN 40 are the same, but, hey,
                        its worth a try--the worst that can happen is that it doesn't work,
                        and you will have little invested except a bit of time. But I think
                        you might be surprised.

                        Sincerely, Crissie Staats -- IONA -- CN 35 # 135

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