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Bio-diesel

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  • colin_cd
    Dear group, given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability of using
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 4, 2007
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      Dear group,

      given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
      diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
      of using biodiesel instead.

      I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
      using this fuel.

      I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
      group members would be helpful.

      As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
      availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
      alongside normal red diesel.

      Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
      sense. any thoughts?

      Colin

      Trutz 35/225
    • Steve Perry
      Before our Nic35 went on the hard for a resto job we tried biodiesel. At that time, a concentration of 20% was recommended for most engines I think because of
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 4, 2007
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        Before our Nic35 went on the hard for a resto job we tried biodiesel. At that time, a concentration of 20% was recommended for most engines I think because of the modifications needed for compatability between older engine components (rubber for one) and the increased cleaning effects (ie solvent nature) of bio. It was a while ago but one thing we will always remember is how much the exhaust smelled like French fries.......yummy. It also smoked a lot less. The down side, which is less now, was the expense-it was not cheap but we thought the trade off was worth it, pass the fries please. Steve.
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: colin_cd
        Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:02 AM
        Subject: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel

        Dear group,

        given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
        diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
        of using biodiesel instead.

        I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
        using this fuel.

        I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
        group members would be helpful.

        As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
        availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
        alongside normal red diesel.

        Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
        sense. any thoughts?

        Colin

        Trutz 35/225

      • Colin Campbell-Dunlop
        Hi Steve, Thanks for the reponse. Yes, the seals issue is one that I will discuss with an engineer. I think that the more modern engines don t have a
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 4, 2007
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          Hi Steve,

           

          Thanks for the reponse.  Yes, the seals issue is one that I will discuss with an engineer.  I think that the more modern engines don’t have a problem.  I will talk to Perkins.

           

          Many thanks for your input.

           

          Colin

           


          From: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com [mailto: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Steve Perry
          Sent: 04 July 2007 14:46
          To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel

           

          Before our Nic35 went on the hard for a resto job we tried biodiesel. At that time, a concentration of 20% was recommended for most engines I think because of the modifications needed for compatability between older engine components (rubber for one) and the increased cleaning effects (ie solvent nature) of bio. It was a while ago but one thing we will always remember is how much the exhaust smelled like French fries....... yummy. It also smoked a lot less. The down side, which is less now, was the expense-it was not cheap but we thought the trade off was worth it, pass the fries please. Steve.

          ----- Original Message -----

          From: colin_cd

          Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:02 AM

          Subject: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel

           

          Dear group,

          given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
          diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
          of using biodiesel instead.

          I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
          using this fuel.

          I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
          group members would be helpful.

          As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
          availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
          alongside normal red diesel.

          Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
          sense. any thoughts?

          Colin

          Trutz 35/225

        • Ian Postlethwaite
          I have used cooking oil on a Peugeot van on a 60-40 mix. 60% diesel to 40% cooking oil with great success end result was alot quieter and more efficient, if
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 4, 2007
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            I have used cooking oil on a Peugeot van on a 60-40 mix. 60% diesel to 40% cooking oil with great success end result was alot quieter and more efficient, if only a little slow to start in cold weather, but this problem can be solved by adding about 3 ltr of petrol per full tank (70ltrs)
            I will seriously consider a similar arrangement with my ford tempest engine if we get cained for additional duty.
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 2:06 PM
            Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel

            Hi Steve,

            Thanks for the reponse.  Yes, the seals issue is one that I will discuss with an engineer.  I think that the more modern engines don’t have a problem.  I will talk to Perkins.

            Many thanks for your input.

            Colin


            From: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com ] On Behalf Of Steve Perry
            Sent: 04 July 2007 14:46
            To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
            Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel

            Before our Nic35 went on the hard for a resto job we tried biodiesel. At that time, a concentration of 20% was recommended for most engines I think because of the modifications needed for compatability between older engine components (rubber for one) and the increased cleaning effects (ie solvent nature) of bio. It was a while ago but one thing we will always remember is how much the exhaust smelled like French fries....... yummy. It also smoked a lot less. The down side, which is less now, was the expense-it was not cheap but we thought the trade off was worth it, pass the fries please. Steve.

            ----- Original Message -----

            From: colin_cd

            Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 9:02 AM

            Subject: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel

            Dear group,

            given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
            diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
            of using biodiesel instead.

            I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
            using this fuel.

            I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
            group members would be helpful.

            As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
            availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
            alongside normal red diesel.

            Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
            sense. any thoughts?

            Colin

            Trutz 35/225

          • William E. Roesner
            Hello all, Good old fashion, high sulfur diesel oil is what our engines were designed to burn, and live a long and reliable life with. Before experimenting
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 5, 2007
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              Hello all,
              Good old fashion, high sulfur diesel oil is what our engines were
              designed to burn, and live a long and reliable life with. Before
              experimenting with the unexpected results of environmentally
              advantageous fuels, that might cost more environmentally, with at sea
              breakdowns, refits, rebuilds, or premature aging of engine components,
              I'd wait for some solid and well found engineering advice, before
              pouring french fries into my tank.
              Cheers,
              Bill

              On Jul 4, 2007, at 9:02 AM, colin_cd wrote:

              > Dear group,
              >
              > given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
              > diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
              > of using biodiesel instead.
              >
              > I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
              > using this fuel.
              >
              > I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
              > group members would be helpful.
              >
              > As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
              > availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
              > alongside normal red diesel.
              >
              > Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
              > sense. any thoughts?
              >
              > Colin
              >
              > Trutz 35/225
              >
              >
              >
            • Colin Campbell-Dunlop
              Hi Bill, This clearly is a bit of a controversial subject and I share your concerns with regard to possible engine damage etc. There seem to have been some
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 6, 2007
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                Hi Bill,

                 

                This clearly is a bit of a controversial subject and I share your concerns with regard to possible engine damage etc.  There seem to have been some studies done in the US (CA I think) on sailing boats so I am going to do a bit more ‘academic’ research on this and then talk to some marine engineers over here in the UK, and possibly to Perkins too.

                 

                Agreed though, trialling the fuel on an expensive sailing boat engine is perhaps not the best initial strategy. 

                 

                The cons with the fuel appear to be that is is a bit more of a solvent than usual diesel and that this might rot out natural rubber seals and lines.  There seems to be some evidence that Bio is a better lubricant than diesel and that this might prolong the life of the injection pump etc but the jury is probably still out on that one.  Another argument in favour is that the low sulphur nature of bio means that you get less sulphuric acid in your crankcase oil with the attendant benefits that that brings. 

                 

                Of course, smelling like a chip shop when under power is an acquired taste J

                 

                Rgds

                 

                Colin

                 


                From: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com [mailto: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of William E. Roesner
                Sent: 05 July 2007 18:45
                To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel

                 

                Hello all,
                Good old fashion, high sulfur diesel oil is what our engines were designed to burn, and live a long and reliable life with. Before experimenting with the unexpected results of environmentally advantageous fuels, that might cost more environmentally, with at sea breakdowns, refits, rebuilds, or premature aging of engine components, I'd wait for some solid and well found engineering advice, before pouring french fries into my tank.
                Cheers,
                Bill

                On Jul 4, 2007, at 9:02 AM, colin_cd wrote:

                Dear group,

                given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
                diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
                of using biodiesel instead.

                I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
                using this fuel.

                I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
                group members would be helpful.

                As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
                availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
                alongside normal red diesel.

                Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
                sense. any thoughts?

                Colin

                Trutz 35/225

              • William E. Roesner
                Colin, Sulphuric acid may be a by product of high sulphur in diesel fuel (hence the necessity for frequent crankcase oil changes), but some where a while ago
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 6, 2007
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                  Colin,
                  Sulphuric acid may be a by product of high sulphur in diesel fuel
                  (hence the necessity for frequent crankcase oil changes), but some
                  where a while ago when American interests decided to try to reduce the
                  amount of sulphur, word was that the sulphur was a positive lubricant
                  in valve stem guides and cylinder walls, and hence was a good thing to
                  keep abundant in the fuel. ???
                  Bill

                  On Jul 6, 2007, at 5:30 AM, Colin Campbell-Dunlop wrote:

                  > Hi Bill,
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > This clearly is a bit of a controversial subject and I share your
                  > concerns with regard to possible engine damage etc.  There seem to
                  > have been some studies done in the US (CA I think) on sailing boats so
                  > I am going to do a bit more ‘academic’ research on this and then talk
                  > to some marine engineers over here in the UK, and possibly to Perkins
                  > too.
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > Agreed though, trialling the fuel on an expensive sailing boat engine
                  > is perhaps not the best initial strategy. 
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > The cons with the fuel appear to be that is is a bit more of a solvent
                  > than usual diesel and that this might rot out natural rubber seals and
                  > lines.  There seems to be some evidence that Bio is a better lubricant
                  > than diesel and that this might prolong the life of the injection pump
                  > etc but the jury is probably still out on that one.  Another argument
                  > in favour is that the low sulphur nature of bio means that you get
                  > less sulphuric acid in your crankcase oil with the attendant benefits
                  > that that brings. 
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > Of course, smelling like a chip shop when under power is an acquired
                  > taste J
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > Rgds
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > Colin
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  > From: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:campernicholson@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of William E.
                  > Roesner
                  > Sent: 05 July 2007 18:45
                  > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  > Hello all,
                  > Good old fashion, high sulfur diesel oil is what our engines were
                  > designed to burn, and live a long and reliable life with. Before
                  > experimenting with the unexpected results of environmentally
                  > advantageous fuels, that might cost more environmentally, with at sea
                  > breakdowns, refits, rebuilds, or premature aging of engine components,
                  > I'd wait for some solid and well found engineering advice, before
                  > pouring french fries into my tank.
                  > Cheers,
                  > Bill
                  >
                  > On Jul 4, 2007, at 9:02 AM, colin_cd wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear group,
                  >
                  > given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
                  > diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
                  > of using biodiesel instead.
                  >
                  > I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
                  > using this fuel.
                  >
                  > I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
                  > group members would be helpful.
                  >
                  > As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
                  > availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
                  > alongside normal red diesel.
                  >
                  > Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
                  > sense. any thoughts?
                  >
                  > Colin
                  >
                  > Trutz 35/225
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Jeffrey Moorman
                  Check out www.biodiesel.org/ there is a wealth of solid and well found engineering advice to recommed blending Bio into your tank. The results are far
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 25, 2007
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                    Check out www.biodiesel.org/ there is a wealth of "solid and well found engineering advice' to recommed
                    blending Bio into your tank. The results are far from "unexpected".

                    Jeff Moorman

                    Nic 35 "la Boheme"


                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "William E.Roesner" <blueprintbill@...>
                    > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel
                    > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:44:53 -0400
                    >
                    >
                    > Hello all,
                    > Good old fashion, high sulfur diesel oil is what our engines were
                    > designed to burn, and live a long and reliable life with. Before
                    > experimenting with the unexpected results of environmentally
                    > advantageous fuels, that might cost more environmentally, with at
                    > sea breakdowns, refits, rebuilds, or premature aging of engine
                    > components, I'd wait for some solid and well found engineering
                    > advice, before pouring french fries into my tank.
                    > Cheers,
                    > Bill
                    >
                    > On Jul 4, 2007, at 9:02 AM, colin_cd wrote:
                    >
                    > > Dear group,
                    > >
                    > > given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
                    > > diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
                    > > of using biodiesel instead.
                    > >
                    > > I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
                    > > using this fuel.
                    > >
                    > > I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
                    > > group members would be helpful.
                    > >
                    > > As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
                    > > availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
                    > > alongside normal red diesel.
                    > >
                    > > Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
                    > > sense. any thoughts?
                    > >
                    > > Colin
                    > >
                    > > Trutz 35/225
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >

                    >
                  • JIM TEIPEN
                    I recently saw a brief item in the July Seaworthy magazine, which is a publication of BoatUS to the effect that, after conducting their own evaluations of
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 25, 2007
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                      I recently saw a brief item in the July Seaworthy magazine, which is a publication of BoatUS to the effect that, after conducting their own evaluations of biodiesel, both the US Coast Guard and US Navy have decided that they will not use biodiesel in any vessel that could be called into a critical or emergency repsonse.  Their concern, according to this article, was their finding that the stability of biodiesel under marine conditions was significantly less than that of diesel fuel.  If I can locate the actual article or a link to it, I will post it.

                      Jim

                      Alegria

                      C/N 35


                      From: "Jeffrey Moorman" <jeff@...>
                      Reply-To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                      To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel
                      Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:30:18 -0400

                      Check out www.biodiesel. org/ there is a wealth of "solid and well found engineering advice' to recommed
                      blending Bio into your tank. The results are far from "unexpected" .

                      Jeff Moorman

                      Nic 35 "la Boheme"

                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "William E.Roesner" <blueprintbill@ comcast.net>
                      > To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel
                      > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:44:53 -0400
                      >
                      >
                      > Hello all,
                      > Good old fashion, high sulfur diesel oil is what our engines were
                      > designed to burn, and live a long and reliable life with. Before
                      > experimenting with the unexpected results of environmentally
                      > advantageous fuels, that might cost more environmentally, with at
                      > sea breakdowns, refits, rebuilds, or premature aging of engine
                      > components, I'd wait for some solid and well found engineering
                      > advice, before pouring french fries into my tank.
                      > Cheers,
                      > Bill
                      >
                      > On Jul 4, 2007, at 9:02 AM, colin_cd wrote:
                      >
                      > > Dear group,
                      > >
                      > > given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
                      > > diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
                      > > of using biodiesel instead.
                      > >
                      > > I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
                      > > using this fuel.
                      > >
                      > > I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
                      > > group members would be helpful.
                      > >
                      > > As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
                      > > availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
                      > > alongside normal red diesel.
                      > >
                      > > Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
                      > > sense. any thoughts?
                      > >
                      > > Colin
                      > >
                      > > Trutz 35/225
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >

                      >


                    • phokanson
                      Low sulphur diesel has reduced lubricity and can affect the longevity of your engine. Even 2% Biodiesel will provide increased lubricity needed while not
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 29, 2007
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                        Low sulphur diesel has reduced lubricity and can affect the longevity of your engine.  Even 2% Biodiesel will provide increased lubricity needed while not affecting performance.

                        The real issue with biodiesel is the gel point temperature.  The higher the percentage of Biodiesel to Petrodiesel, the higher the temperature at which the mixture will gel. If you are in tropical climes, this is not an issue.  However if you operate in colder weather it can be a significant problem.

                        Biodiesel burns cleaner than petro diesel in all contaminants expcept NOx.  As long as you don't go above 20% Biodiesel to Petro diesel mix, you should experience no significant loss in power, no gel problem and the motor will run cleaner.  Engine manufacturers are reluctant to recommend more than 5% micture of Biodiesel to Petro diesel, due to potential damage to the injectors.

                        One note of caution: Biodiesel acts as a detergent, and will clean the crud that may be in you tank and lines.  For the first few tankfuls you may have to clean your filters more often.

                        Pure vegetable oil is NOT biodiesel, however it can be converted to Biodiesel.  Pure Vegoil can be used to in place of diesel, however this will require some modifications to your system.  The gel point fo veg oil is very high in comparison.  Cars that run pure vegoil require two tanks, one for petro diesel and one for vegoil.  The vegoil tank and lines require a heater to ensure that the vegoil doens't gel.  The process requires starting the motor with petro diesel and switching to vegoil once the temp of the oil is warm enough.  Before shut down, the fuel source needs to be switched back to petro diesel so the fuel in the lines doesn't gel.

                        Hope this helps.  There is a lot more info available on the web.


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: JIM TEIPEN
                        Sent: Jul 25, 2007 5:46 PM
                        To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel

                        I recently saw a brief item in the July Seaworthy magazine, which is a publication of BoatUS to the effect that, after conducting their own evaluations of biodiesel, both the US Coast Guard and US Navy have decided that they will not use biodiesel in any vessel that could be called into a critical or emergency repsonse.  Their concern, according to this article, was their finding that the stability of biodiesel under marine conditions was significantly less than that of diesel fuel.  If I can locate the actual article or a link to it, I will post it.

                        Jim

                        Alegria

                        C/N 35


                        From: "Jeffrey Moorman" <jeff@independent- camera.com>
                        Reply-To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
                        To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel
                        Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:30:18 -0400

                        Check out www.biodiesel. org/ there is a wealth of "solid and well found engineering advice' to recommed
                        blending Bio into your tank. The results are far from "unexpected" .

                        Jeff Moorman

                        Nic 35 "la Boheme"

                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "William E.Roesner" <blueprintbill@ comcast.net>
                        > To: campernicholson@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel
                        > Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 13:44:53 -0400
                        >
                        >
                        > Hello all,
                        > Good old fashion, high sulfur diesel oil is what our engines were
                        > designed to burn, and live a long and reliable life with. Before
                        > experimenting with the unexpected results of environmentally
                        > advantageous fuels, that might cost more environmentally, with at
                        > sea breakdowns, refits, rebuilds, or premature aging of engine
                        > components, I'd wait for some solid and well found engineering
                        > advice, before pouring french fries into my tank.
                        > Cheers,
                        > Bill
                        >
                        > On Jul 4, 2007, at 9:02 AM, colin_cd wrote:
                        >
                        > > Dear group,
                        > >
                        > > given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
                        > > diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
                        > > of using biodiesel instead.
                        > >
                        > > I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
                        > > using this fuel.
                        > >
                        > > I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
                        > > group members would be helpful.
                        > >
                        > > As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
                        > > availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
                        > > alongside normal red diesel.
                        > >
                        > > Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
                        > > sense. any thoughts?
                        > >
                        > > Colin
                        > >
                        > > Trutz 35/225
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >

                        >


                      • Johns
                        ... From: colin_cd To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 3:02 PM Subject: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel Dear group, given that we
                        Message 11 of 11 , Aug 11, 2007
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                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: colin_cd
                          Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 3:02 PM
                          Subject: [campernicholson] Bio-diesel

                          Dear group,

                          given that we are going to lose our right to use low tax marine
                          diesel here in the UK I was thinking of looking in to the viability
                          of using biodiesel instead.

                          I was wondering if anyone else in the group had any experience of
                          using this fuel.

                          I cannot think of any reason why it would not work but any input from
                          group members would be helpful.

                          As things stand i think that the biggest issue will be one of
                          availability. I certainly can't see many fuel berths stocking it
                          alongside normal red diesel.

                          Given the environmental advantages of using it though it might make
                          sense. any thoughts?

                          Colin

                          Trutz 35/225

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