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RE: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108

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  • Katie and Simon
    Thank you Al. I ll look into it. Simon ... From: Albert G. Boyce Reply-To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com To:
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 21 7:31 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      Thank you Al. I'll look into it.

      Simon


      ----Original Message Follows----
      From: "Albert G. Boyce" <Albert_Boyce@...>
      Reply-To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
      To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: RE: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108
      Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:58:28 -0500

      Katie/Simon

      One of the editors (I think his name is Nick Nicholson) of Practical Sailor
      built a boat and installed a Perkins 4-108 that had been sitting unused for
      several years before the boat was finished. He circumnavigated and wrote
      articles as he went that were published in Practical Sailor. One of the
      problems he had with the 4-108 was oil leaking from the front and rear seals
      which he attributed to the seals hardening due to lack of use for such a
      long period. I believe he ended up having the engine pulled in New Zealand
      or Australia to have the oil leaks repaired.

      Hope this is helpful.

      Al Boyce
      Discovery CN35 #132
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Katie and Simon [mailto:katieandsimon@...]
      Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 11:01 AM
      To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108


      Hello CN team,

      All this talk about engines has got me thinking. Katie and I are planning
      to
      up sticks from Canada and head back to Gin Rummy in Turkey this summer.
      By
      the time we get to her, she'll have been sitting on the hard for almost 3
      years. Initially we plan to spend a few months living on board in Turkey
      while we refurbish her.

      I know there are lots of things to do, but my biggest concern is the
      engine.
      I've never left one untouched for so long before. About 6 months before
      we
      laid the boat up I fitted new injectors, replaced the fuel pump and had
      the
      high-pressure pump reconditioned with new seals. The engine was running
      fine
      when we left it, and I winterised it as usual, incuding pouring a bit of
      oil
      into the cylinders through the inlet manifold.

      When we go back I'm planning at the very least to do a top overhaul and
      replace the cylinder head gasket, etc. But I'd also like to purchase
      beforehand any other spares that I'm likely to need - they're not always
      available in Turkey. Does anyone have any experience of restarting a
      long-stored engine, and what the condition is likely to be? Also, any
      tips
      for do's and don'ts before I get it started?!

      I'd appreciate your thoughts.

      Simon (& Katie)
      Gin Rummy, CN35-202

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • jmoorman@ozfilms.org
      Simon, The oil leaks Albert mentions can also be caused by overfilling the engine lube oil sump. If you are planning a top-end overhaul (although the old
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 21 8:54 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Simon,

        The oil leaks Albert mentions can also be caused by
        overfilling the engine lube oil sump. If you are
        planning a top-end overhaul (although the old addage
        "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind) you
        will be able to turn the engine over by hand with a
        large wrench. If you opt to run it before that major
        bit of work, flush the fresh water cooling system,
        change the luricating oil, ALL of the filters, remove
        all of the injectors, pour an ounce of MARVEL MYSTERY
        OIL in each cylander and turn the engine either with
        the wrench (prefered) on the lower pulley or the
        starter. Once you are satisfied that everything is
        rotating smoothly, replace the injectors. Take a sample
        of the old diesel fuel out of the tank and look for
        suspended matter, you probably have a good growth of
        algae-even with a biocide...Best bet is to empty the
        tank and refill with fresh,treated diesel fuel.

        Before you attempt to start the engine, don't forget to
        bleed the entire sustem of the old fuel and any air.

        You will see smoke on start-up (Mystery Oil burn off)
        but she should settle down to her old self in a few
        seconds.

        Jeff
      • Simon Rayfield
        Hi Use the old saying - If it is not broken, why fix it! I know you have already had one list from Jeff, but here is mine anyway, some things obviously rely
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 24 8:50 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi
           
          Use the old saying - "If it is not broken, why fix it!" I know you have already had one list from Jeff, but here is mine anyway, some things obviously rely on commonsense and are repeated.  I am intrigued by the "Marvel Mystery Oil" this must be a US or Canadian product, this sort of thing is frowned upon in the UK for reasons of atmospheric polution (ie lots of smoke), we used to be able to get a very strong Redex upper cylinder lubricant additive that would "blow the engine's socks off"on start up!  As you are in Turkey, be aware that several UK Yacht Charter companies operate here (Marmaris, etc), these should have competent diesel engine mechanics as part of the crews and would have contact with UK for spares, etc.
           
          The Perkins engine is extremely reliable and robust.  The most important job is to change oil and filter regularly and keep the fuel and cooling systems in good health.  Since yours has been laid up for some time (but has had new injectors and a squirt of oil in the bores)  I would run through the following list:
           
          • Get the batteries topped up (if not sealed units) and fully charged up
          • Drain out the oil and change the filter.  Refill with supermarket brand (cheap) diesel engine oil, these engines are unsophisticated and cheap oil is fine provided it adheres to a standard diesel oil spec.  The expensive oil just contains more additives, etc.
          • Change fuel filter
          • Check fuel bowl for water, etc.  If the fuel tank wasn't left full up - check fuel tank lower drain cock for water (condensation), etc  if it isn't seized closed 
          • Fit fuel lift pump diaphragm kit or keep a spare onboard
          • Check the engine for signs of water leakage, particularly if it could have suffered freezing temperatures
          • Replace the rubber water pump impellor, check pump shaft seal as this can leak water into the bilge and whilst in the 'black hole' check the drive belts and possibly replace if there are signs of cracking when the belt is flexed 
          • Check alternator(s) are free to turn and terminals are not corroded 
          • Try and get a spanner on the end pulley (when checking the water pump) and turn the engine over by hand.  If you cannot turn it by hand with reasonable leverage I would start to worry - but I think this would be highly unlikely
          • Check water hoses and clips
          • I assume the boat is on the hard, so connect a freshwater hose to the seawater side and give it a good flush and check for leaks at the same time.
          • Flush freshwater side and header tank into bilge 
          • Check starter motor electrics for corrosion.  If they look green and horrid dismantle, clean terminals, apply vaseline and reconnect, similarly the battery and alternator terminals
          • If all of these items checks out OK - spin it over on the starter, watch for oil pressure even at cranking speed
          • Go for a start, warm it through thoroughly (give it a good run as these engines tend to run cool),  check for leaks, when satisfied, shutdown and change the oil again if it is very dirty. 
            Note: Unfortunately this will involve a prolonged run in neutral, but if you are on the hard you have no option.
          • Check the toilet and bilge pumps, as these have soft rubber diaphragms and valves  - a failed toilet pump is catastrophic!
          Tips from a local UK Perkins agent:
          • Don't waste money on new or spare injectors, they are very expensive and last for ever if taken out occasionally and serviced by a commercial vehicle injector agent.
          • When removing or refitting an injector, take precautions to prevent carbon, etc from falling into the cylinder.  If it does, use a screwdriver with a gob of grease on the end to get it out (piston on TDC) - don't trust unknown mechanics, etc., as these injectors ar messy to change and need care to get a good, longterm seal
          • Always fit a new copper ring to the injector body and preferably anneal (soften) the ring with heat before fitting in order to get a good seal.  Failure to clean the seat and get a gastight fit may result in combustion gas blowing past the seat and causing a carbon  build up in the recess and around the engine compartment.
          • If using a powerful decarbonizing cyclinder cleaner (Marvel Mystery Oil?) recheck the valve clearances (0.012" cold) as carbon removed from valve seats, etc may cause the clearances to change
          And finally - if you are worried about the cylinder head, etc., remove the injectors, buy or borrow a diesel engine compression tester and run a compression check (or watch an agent do it for you).  The cylinder compression values are a first rate check of the engine condition as they can be compared to the Perkins recommended pressure and more important they should all be equal or within a few psi of each other.  If these pressures are seriously different or low - you may need to strip the top end!! 
           
          When (or if)  you dismantle the fuel system take care to avoid air leaks and always replace the fuel filter at regular intervals.  I didn't, and a choppy sea stirred up the sediment in the fuel tank, this in turn settled in the filter and weeks later the engine speed became impossible to control.  The problem was a partially blocked fuel filter causing the governor/injector pump to 'stonewall' and draw in air from apparently secure connections resulting in an air-locked unstable governor, and hence hefty speed fluctuations!  This is also a cautionary tale for those of us (me included) that never look inside our fuel tanks. 
           
          Question:  Have you ever checked your fuel bowl after or when motoring through a rough sea - if it goes opaque or dark, you have a potential problem lurking in the fuel tank.  I always check my fuel bowl when tied up alongside (we all do it) and not surprisingly it is perfectly clear!  After all, who wants to poke around the engine room when the boat is standing on its end!
           
          In closing - my Perkins has been in the boat since new (72), has over 6600 hours on the clock and apart from routine maintenance is still going strong.....and there are probably other personal tips that others can add.  A lot of my engine experience has come the hard way whilst running the engine each day for 5 weeks whilst transitting the French canal system from Med to Channel.  Only major problem was the blocked fuel filter causing unstable engine speed, this seems totally bizarre but is a known problem with dirty fuel in a diesel.
           
          All the best
           
          Simon
          Dediou#42
           
          ps to Bob Barker if you read this epic and want to use any of it for the C&N Newsletter, please do.  I am currently recovering from local hospital day surgery (nose ream out) and have been told I must not play at boats for 48 hours.   I must add that a lot of the jobs above are still waiting for me to do, particularly opening up the fuel tank and getting in there - ugh!
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 4:00 PM
          Subject: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108

          Hello CN team,

          All this talk about engines has got me thinking. Katie and I are planning to
          up sticks from Canada and head back to Gin Rummy in Turkey this summer. By
          the time we get to her, she'll have been sitting on the hard for almost 3
          years. Initially we plan to spend a few months living on board in Turkey
          while we refurbish her.

          I know there are lots of things to do, but my biggest concern is the engine.
          I've never left one untouched for so long before. About 6 months before we
          laid the boat up I fitted new injectors, replaced the fuel pump and had the
          high-pressure pump reconditioned with new seals. The engine was running fine
          when we left it, and I winterised it as usual, incuding pouring a bit of oil
          into the cylinders through the inlet manifold.

          When we go back I'm planning at the very least to do a top overhaul and
          replace the cylinder head gasket, etc.  But I'd also like to purchase
          beforehand any other spares that I'm likely to need - they're not always
          available in Turkey. Does anyone have any experience of restarting a
          long-stored engine, and what the condition is likely to be? Also, any tips
          for do's and don'ts before I get it started?!

          I'd appreciate your thoughts.

          Simon (& Katie)
          Gin Rummy, CN35-202

          _________________________________________________________________
          Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger
          http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger

        • Katie and Simon
          Simon, This is great! Thank you so much for taking the time to prepare this epic. I will print it out and take it with me to Turkey. Much appreciated! Simon
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 27 2:38 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Simon,

            This is great! Thank you so much for taking the time to prepare this epic. I
            will print it out and take it with me to Turkey. Much appreciated!

            Simon
            Gin Rummy, CN35-202


            ----Original Message Follows----
            From: "Simon Rayfield" <srayfield@...>
            Reply-To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
            To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108
            Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:50:32 -0000

            Hi

            Use the old saying - "If it is not broken, why fix it!" I know you have
            already had one list from Jeff, but here is mine anyway, some things
            obviously rely on commonsense and are repeated. I am intrigued by the
            "Marvel Mystery Oil" this must be a US or Canadian product, this sort of
            thing is frowned upon in the UK for reasons of atmospheric polution (ie lots
            of smoke), we used to be able to get a very strong Redex upper cylinder
            lubricant additive that would "blow the engine's socks off"on start up! As
            you are in Turkey, be aware that several UK Yacht Charter companies operate
            here (Marmaris, etc), these should have competent diesel engine mechanics as
            part of the crews and would have contact with UK for spares, etc.

            The Perkins engine is extremely reliable and robust. The most important job
            is to change oil and filter regularly and keep the fuel and cooling systems
            in good health. Since yours has been laid up for some time (but has had new
            injectors and a squirt of oil in the bores) I would run through the
            following list:

            a.. Get the batteries topped up (if not sealed units) and fully charged
            up
            b.. Drain out the oil and change the filter. Refill with supermarket
            brand (cheap) diesel engine oil, these engines are unsophisticated and cheap
            oil is fine provided it adheres to a standard diesel oil spec. The
            expensive oil just contains more additives, etc.
            c.. Change fuel filter
            d.. Check fuel bowl for water, etc. If the fuel tank wasn't left full up
            - check fuel tank lower drain cock for water (condensation), etc if it
            isn't seized closed
            e.. Fit fuel lift pump diaphragm kit or keep a spare onboard
            f.. Check the engine for signs of water leakage, particularly if it could
            have suffered freezing temperatures
            g.. Replace the rubber water pump impellor, check pump shaft seal as this
            can leak water into the bilge and whilst in the 'black hole' check the drive
            belts and possibly replace if there are signs of cracking when the belt is
            flexed
            h.. Check alternator(s) are free to turn and terminals are not corroded
            i.. Try and get a spanner on the end pulley (when checking the water
            pump) and turn the engine over by hand. If you cannot turn it by hand with
            reasonable leverage I would start to worry - but I think this would be
            highly unlikely
            j.. Check water hoses and clips
            k.. I assume the boat is on the hard, so connect a freshwater hose to the
            seawater side and give it a good flush and check for leaks at the same time.
            l.. Flush freshwater side and header tank into bilge
            m.. Check starter motor electrics for corrosion. If they look green and
            horrid dismantle, clean terminals, apply vaseline and reconnect, similarly
            the battery and alternator terminals
            n.. If all of these items checks out OK - spin it over on the starter,
            watch for oil pressure even at cranking speed
            o.. Go for a start, warm it through thoroughly (give it a good run as
            these engines tend to run cool), check for leaks, when satisfied, shutdown
            and change the oil again if it is very dirty.
            Note: Unfortunately this will involve a prolonged run in neutral, but if
            you are on the hard you have no option.
            p.. Check the toilet and bilge pumps, as these have soft rubber
            diaphragms and valves - a failed toilet pump is catastrophic!
            Tips from a local UK Perkins agent:
            a.. Don't waste money on new or spare injectors, they are very expensive
            and last for ever if taken out occasionally and serviced by a commercial
            vehicle injector agent.
            b.. When removing or refitting an injector, take precautions to prevent
            carbon, etc from falling into the cylinder. If it does, use a screwdriver
            with a gob of grease on the end to get it out (piston on TDC) - don't trust
            unknown mechanics, etc., as these injectors ar messy to change and need care
            to get a good, longterm seal
            c.. Always fit a new copper ring to the injector body and preferably
            anneal (soften) the ring with heat before fitting in order to get a good
            seal. Failure to clean the seat and get a gastight fit may result in
            combustion gas blowing past the seat and causing a carbon build up in the
            recess and around the engine compartment.
            d.. If using a powerful decarbonizing cyclinder cleaner (Marvel Mystery
            Oil?) recheck the valve clearances (0.012" cold) as carbon removed from
            valve seats, etc may cause the clearances to change
            And finally - if you are worried about the cylinder head, etc., remove the
            injectors, buy or borrow a diesel engine compression tester and run a
            compression check (or watch an agent do it for you). The cylinder
            compression values are a first rate check of the engine condition as they
            can be compared to the Perkins recommended pressure and more important they
            should all be equal or within a few psi of each other. If these pressures
            are seriously different or low - you may need to strip the top end!!

            When (or if) you dismantle the fuel system take care to avoid air leaks and
            always replace the fuel filter at regular intervals. I didn't, and a choppy
            sea stirred up the sediment in the fuel tank, this in turn settled in the
            filter and weeks later the engine speed became impossible to control. The
            problem was a partially blocked fuel filter causing the governor/injector
            pump to 'stonewall' and draw in air from apparently secure connections
            resulting in an air-locked unstable governor, and hence hefty speed
            fluctuations! This is also a cautionary tale for those of us (me included)
            that never look inside our fuel tanks.

            Question: Have you ever checked your fuel bowl after or when motoring
            through a rough sea - if it goes opaque or dark, you have a potential
            problem lurking in the fuel tank. I always check my fuel bowl when tied up
            alongside (we all do it) and not surprisingly it is perfectly clear! After
            all, who wants to poke around the engine room when the boat is standing on
            its end!

            In closing - my Perkins has been in the boat since new (72), has over 6600
            hours on the clock and apart from routine maintenance is still going
            strong.....and there are probably other personal tips that others can add.
            A lot of my engine experience has come the hard way whilst running the
            engine each day for 5 weeks whilst transitting the French canal system from
            Med to Channel. Only major problem was the blocked fuel filter causing
            unstable engine speed, this seems totally bizarre but is a known problem
            with dirty fuel in a diesel.

            All the best

            Simon
            Dediou#42

            ps to Bob Barker if you read this epic and want to use any of it for the C&N
            Newsletter, please do. I am currently recovering from local hospital day
            surgery (nose ream out) and have been told I must not play at boats for 48
            hours. I must add that a lot of the jobs above are still waiting for me to
            do, particularly opening up the fuel tank and getting in there - ugh!
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Katie and Simon
            To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 4:00 PM
            Subject: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108


            Hello CN team,

            All this talk about engines has got me thinking. Katie and I are planning
            to
            up sticks from Canada and head back to Gin Rummy in Turkey this summer.
            By
            the time we get to her, she'll have been sitting on the hard for almost 3
            years. Initially we plan to spend a few months living on board in Turkey
            while we refurbish her.

            I know there are lots of things to do, but my biggest concern is the
            engine.
            I've never left one untouched for so long before. About 6 months before
            we
            laid the boat up I fitted new injectors, replaced the fuel pump and had
            the
            high-pressure pump reconditioned with new seals. The engine was running
            fine
            when we left it, and I winterised it as usual, incuding pouring a bit of
            oil
            into the cylinders through the inlet manifold.

            When we go back I'm planning at the very least to do a top overhaul and
            replace the cylinder head gasket, etc. But I'd also like to purchase
            beforehand any other spares that I'm likely to need - they're not always
            available in Turkey. Does anyone have any experience of restarting a
            long-stored engine, and what the condition is likely to be? Also, any
            tips
            for do's and don'ts before I get it started?!

            I'd appreciate your thoughts.

            Simon (& Katie)
            Gin Rummy, CN35-202

            _________________________________________________________________
            Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger
            http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger



            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/campernicholson/

            b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            campernicholson-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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          • jmoorman@ozfilms.org
            Simon, Marvel Mystery Oil is a light penetrating oil...Good for lubricating the piston rings, it will produce very little smoke. Your list is excellent! Jeff
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 30 2:56 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Simon,
              Marvel Mystery Oil is a light penetrating oil...Good
              for lubricating the piston rings, it will produce very
              little smoke.

              Your list is excellent!

              Jeff

              On Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:38:01 +0000, "Katie and Simon"
              wrote:

              >
              > Simon,
              >
              > This is great! Thank you so much for taking the time
              to
              > prepare this epic. I
              > will print it out and take it with me to Turkey. Much
              > appreciated!
              >
              > Simon
              > Gin Rummy, CN35-202
              >
              >
              > ----Original Message Follows----
              > From: "Simon Rayfield" <srayfield@...>
              > Reply-To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
              > To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108
              > Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:50:32 -0000
              >
              > Hi
              >
              > Use the old saying - "If it is not broken, why fix
              it!"
              > I know you have
              > already had one list from Jeff, but here is mine
              > anyway, some things
              > obviously rely on commonsense and are repeated. I am
              > intrigued by the
              > "Marvel Mystery Oil" this must be a US or Canadian
              > product, this sort of
              > thing is frowned upon in the UK for reasons of
              > atmospheric polution (ie lots
              > of smoke), we used to be able to get a very strong
              > Redex upper cylinder
              > lubricant additive that would "blow the engine's socks
              > off"on start up! As
              > you are in Turkey, be aware that several UK Yacht
              > Charter companies operate
              > here (Marmaris, etc), these should have competent
              > diesel engine mechanics as
              > part of the crews and would have contact with UK for
              > spares, etc.
              >
              > The Perkins engine is extremely reliable and robust.
              > The most important job
              > is to change oil and filter regularly and keep the
              fuel
              > and cooling systems
              > in good health. Since yours has been laid up for some
              > time (but has had new
              > injectors and a squirt of oil in the bores) I would
              > run through the
              > following list:
              >
              > a.. Get the batteries topped up (if not sealed
              > units) and fully charged
              > up
              > b.. Drain out the oil and change the filter.
              Refill
              > with supermarket
              > brand (cheap) diesel engine oil, these engines are
              > unsophisticated and cheap
              > oil is fine provided it adheres to a standard diesel
              > oil spec. The
              > expensive oil just contains more additives, etc.
              > c.. Change fuel filter
              > d.. Check fuel bowl for water, etc. If the fuel
              > tank wasn't left full up
              > - check fuel tank lower drain cock for water
              > (condensation), etc if it
              > isn't seized closed
              > e.. Fit fuel lift pump diaphragm kit or keep a
              spare
              > onboard
              > f.. Check the engine for signs of water leakage,
              > particularly if it could
              > have suffered freezing temperatures
              > g.. Replace the rubber water pump impellor, check
              > pump shaft seal as this
              > can leak water into the bilge and whilst in the 'black
              > hole' check the drive
              > belts and possibly replace if there are signs of
              > cracking when the belt is
              > flexed
              > h.. Check alternator(s) are free to turn and
              > terminals are not corroded
              > i.. Try and get a spanner on the end pulley (when
              > checking the water
              > pump) and turn the engine over by hand. If you cannot
              > turn it by hand with
              > reasonable leverage I would start to worry - but I
              > think this would be
              > highly unlikely
              > j.. Check water hoses and clips
              > k.. I assume the boat is on the hard, so connect a
              > freshwater hose to the
              > seawater side and give it a good flush and check for
              > leaks at the same time.
              > l.. Flush freshwater side and header tank into
              bilge
              > m.. Check starter motor electrics for corrosion.
              If
              > they look green and
              > horrid dismantle, clean terminals, apply vaseline and
              > reconnect, similarly
              > the battery and alternator terminals
              > n.. If all of these items checks out OK - spin it
              > over on the starter,
              > watch for oil pressure even at cranking speed
              > o.. Go for a start, warm it through thoroughly
              (give
              > it a good run as
              > these engines tend to run cool), check for leaks,
              when
              > satisfied, shutdown
              > and change the oil again if it is very dirty.
              > Note: Unfortunately this will involve a prolonged
              > run in neutral, but if
              > you are on the hard you have no option.
              > p.. Check the toilet and bilge pumps, as these have
              > soft rubber
              > diaphragms and valves - a failed toilet pump is
              > catastrophic!
              > Tips from a local UK Perkins agent:
              > a.. Don't waste money on new or spare injectors,
              > they are very expensive
              > and last for ever if taken out occasionally and
              > serviced by a commercial
              > vehicle injector agent.
              > b.. When removing or refitting an injector, take
              > precautions to prevent
              > carbon, etc from falling into the cylinder. If it
              > does, use a screwdriver
              > with a gob of grease on the end to get it out (piston
              > on TDC) - don't trust
              > unknown mechanics, etc., as these injectors ar messy
              to
              > change and need care
              > to get a good, longterm seal
              > c.. Always fit a new copper ring to the injector
              > body and preferably
              > anneal (soften) the ring with heat before fitting in
              > order to get a good
              > seal. Failure to clean the seat and get a gastight
              fit
              > may result in
              > combustion gas blowing past the seat and causing a
              > carbon build up in the
              > recess and around the engine compartment.
              > d.. If using a powerful decarbonizing cyclinder
              > cleaner (Marvel Mystery
              > Oil?) recheck the valve clearances (0.012" cold) as
              > carbon removed from
              > valve seats, etc may cause the clearances to change
              > And finally - if you are worried about the cylinder
              > head, etc., remove the
              > injectors, buy or borrow a diesel engine compression
              > tester and run a
              > compression check (or watch an agent do it for you).
              > The cylinder
              > compression values are a first rate check of the
              engine
              > condition as they
              > can be compared to the Perkins recommended pressure
              and
              > more important they
              > should all be equal or within a few psi of each
              other.
              > If these pressures
              > are seriously different or low - you may need to strip
              > the top end!!
              >
              > When (or if) you dismantle the fuel system take care
              > to avoid air leaks and
              > always replace the fuel filter at regular intervals.
              I
              > didn't, and a choppy
              > sea stirred up the sediment in the fuel tank, this in
              > turn settled in the
              > filter and weeks later the engine speed became
              > impossible to control. The
              > problem was a partially blocked fuel filter causing
              the
              > governor/injector
              > pump to 'stonewall' and draw in air from apparently
              > secure connections
              > resulting in an air-locked unstable governor, and
              hence
              > hefty speed
              > fluctuations! This is also a cautionary tale for
              those
              > of us (me included)
              > that never look inside our fuel tanks.
              >
              > Question: Have you ever checked your fuel bowl after
              > or when motoring
              > through a rough sea - if it goes opaque or dark, you
              > have a potential
              > problem lurking in the fuel tank. I always check my
              > fuel bowl when tied up
              > alongside (we all do it) and not surprisingly it is
              > perfectly clear! After
              > all, who wants to poke around the engine room when the
              > boat is standing on
              > its end!
              >
              > In closing - my Perkins has been in the boat since new
              > (72), has over 6600
              > hours on the clock and apart from routine maintenance
              > is still going
              > strong.....and there are probably other personal tips
              > that others can add.
              > A lot of my engine experience has come the hard way
              > whilst running the
              > engine each day for 5 weeks whilst transitting the
              > French canal system from
              > Med to Channel. Only major problem was the blocked
              > fuel filter causing
              > unstable engine speed, this seems totally bizarre but
              > is a known problem
              > with dirty fuel in a diesel.
              >
              > All the best
              >
              > Simon
              > Dediou#42
              >
              > ps to Bob Barker if you read this epic and want to use
              > any of it for the C&N
              > Newsletter, please do. I am currently recovering from
              > local hospital day
              > surgery (nose ream out) and have been told I must not
              > play at boats for 48
              > hours. I must add that a lot of the jobs above are
              > still waiting for me to
              > do, particularly opening up the fuel tank and getting
              > in there - ugh!
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Katie and Simon
              > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 4:00 PM
              > Subject: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108
              >
              >
              > Hello CN team,
              >
              > All this talk about engines has got me thinking.
              > Katie and I are planning
              > to
              > up sticks from Canada and head back to Gin Rummy in
              > Turkey this summer.
              > By
              > the time we get to her, she'll have been sitting on
              > the hard for almost 3
              > years. Initially we plan to spend a few months
              > living on board in Turkey
              > while we refurbish her.
              >
              > I know there are lots of things to do, but my
              > biggest concern is the
              > engine.
              > I've never left one untouched for so long before.
              > About 6 months before
              > we
              > laid the boat up I fitted new injectors, replaced
              > the fuel pump and had
              > the
              > high-pressure pump reconditioned with new seals.
              The
              > engine was running
              > fine
              > when we left it, and I winterised it as usual,
              > incuding pouring a bit of
              > oil
              > into the cylinders through the inlet manifold.
              >
              > When we go back I'm planning at the very least to
              do
              > a top overhaul and
              > replace the cylinder head gasket, etc. But I'd
              also
              > like to purchase
              > beforehand any other spares that I'm likely to need
              > - they're not always
              > available in Turkey. Does anyone have any
              experience
              > of restarting a
              > long-stored engine, and what the condition is
              likely
              > to be? Also, any
              > tips
              > for do's and don'ts before I get it started?!
              >
              > I'd appreciate your thoughts.
              >
              > Simon (& Katie)
              > Gin Rummy, CN35-202
              >
              >
              >
              _________________________________________________________________
              > Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN
              Messenger
              > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/campernicholson/
              >
              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email
              > to:
              > campernicholson-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
              > Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              >
              >
              _________________________________________________________________
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              >
            • Ann & Roger Haggar
              Hi Simon. Many thanks for yr advice on Perkins 4108 I bought Nich 38 Hull No 117 in same condition in 1996 and have just about finished the rebuild, taking in
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 2, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Simon. Many thanks for yr advice on Perkins 4108
                I bought Nich 38 Hull No 117 in same condition in 1996 and have just about
                finished the rebuild, taking in a 2 yr cruise Vancouver- Mexico and now back
                in Vcr with the boat. Main problem found on return was to rebuild injector
                pump after 2 yrs use. Found most internal seals perished. It could be the
                fuel picked up in Mexico, the fuel additive, or the pump just did not like
                the heat.
                Thks again for the article -and- having done it, the boat rebuild that is ,
                would be pleased to advise, for what it's worth. Rgds


                >From: "Simon Rayfield" <srayfield@...>
                >Reply-To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                >To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
                >Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108
                >Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:50:32 -0000
                >
                >Hi
                >
                >Use the old saying - "If it is not broken, why fix it!" I know you have
                >already had one list from Jeff, but here is mine anyway, some things
                >obviously rely on commonsense and are repeated. I am intrigued by the
                >"Marvel Mystery Oil" this must be a US or Canadian product, this sort of
                >thing is frowned upon in the UK for reasons of atmospheric polution (ie
                >lots of smoke), we used to be able to get a very strong Redex upper
                >cylinder lubricant additive that would "blow the engine's socks off"on
                >start up! As you are in Turkey, be aware that several UK Yacht Charter
                >companies operate here (Marmaris, etc), these should have competent diesel
                >engine mechanics as part of the crews and would have contact with UK for
                >spares, etc.
                >
                >The Perkins engine is extremely reliable and robust. The most important
                >job is to change oil and filter regularly and keep the fuel and cooling
                >systems in good health. Since yours has been laid up for some time (but
                >has had new injectors and a squirt of oil in the bores) I would run
                >through the following list:
                >
                > a.. Get the batteries topped up (if not sealed units) and fully charged
                >up
                > b.. Drain out the oil and change the filter. Refill with supermarket
                >brand (cheap) diesel engine oil, these engines are unsophisticated and
                >cheap oil is fine provided it adheres to a standard diesel oil spec. The
                >expensive oil just contains more additives, etc.
                > c.. Change fuel filter
                > d.. Check fuel bowl for water, etc. If the fuel tank wasn't left full
                >up - check fuel tank lower drain cock for water (condensation), etc if it
                >isn't seized closed
                > e.. Fit fuel lift pump diaphragm kit or keep a spare onboard
                > f.. Check the engine for signs of water leakage, particularly if it
                >could have suffered freezing temperatures
                > g.. Replace the rubber water pump impellor, check pump shaft seal as
                >this can leak water into the bilge and whilst in the 'black hole' check the
                >drive belts and possibly replace if there are signs of cracking when the
                >belt is flexed
                > h.. Check alternator(s) are free to turn and terminals are not corroded
                > i.. Try and get a spanner on the end pulley (when checking the water
                >pump) and turn the engine over by hand. If you cannot turn it by hand with
                >reasonable leverage I would start to worry - but I think this would be
                >highly unlikely
                > j.. Check water hoses and clips
                > k.. I assume the boat is on the hard, so connect a freshwater hose to
                >the seawater side and give it a good flush and check for leaks at the same
                >time.
                > l.. Flush freshwater side and header tank into bilge
                > m.. Check starter motor electrics for corrosion. If they look green and
                >horrid dismantle, clean terminals, apply vaseline and reconnect, similarly
                >the battery and alternator terminals
                > n.. If all of these items checks out OK - spin it over on the starter,
                >watch for oil pressure even at cranking speed
                > o.. Go for a start, warm it through thoroughly (give it a good run as
                >these engines tend to run cool), check for leaks, when satisfied, shutdown
                >and change the oil again if it is very dirty.
                > Note: Unfortunately this will involve a prolonged run in neutral, but if
                >you are on the hard you have no option.
                > p.. Check the toilet and bilge pumps, as these have soft rubber
                >diaphragms and valves - a failed toilet pump is catastrophic!
                >Tips from a local UK Perkins agent:
                > a.. Don't waste money on new or spare injectors, they are very expensive
                >and last for ever if taken out occasionally and serviced by a commercial
                >vehicle injector agent.
                > b.. When removing or refitting an injector, take precautions to prevent
                >carbon, etc from falling into the cylinder. If it does, use a screwdriver
                >with a gob of grease on the end to get it out (piston on TDC) - don't trust
                >unknown mechanics, etc., as these injectors ar messy to change and need
                >care to get a good, longterm seal
                > c.. Always fit a new copper ring to the injector body and preferably
                >anneal (soften) the ring with heat before fitting in order to get a good
                >seal. Failure to clean the seat and get a gastight fit may result in
                >combustion gas blowing past the seat and causing a carbon build up in the
                >recess and around the engine compartment.
                > d.. If using a powerful decarbonizing cyclinder cleaner (Marvel Mystery
                >Oil?) recheck the valve clearances (0.012" cold) as carbon removed from
                >valve seats, etc may cause the clearances to change
                >And finally - if you are worried about the cylinder head, etc., remove the
                >injectors, buy or borrow a diesel engine compression tester and run a
                >compression check (or watch an agent do it for you). The cylinder
                >compression values are a first rate check of the engine condition as they
                >can be compared to the Perkins recommended pressure and more important they
                >should all be equal or within a few psi of each other. If these pressures
                >are seriously different or low - you may need to strip the top end!!
                >
                >When (or if) you dismantle the fuel system take care to avoid air leaks
                >and always replace the fuel filter at regular intervals. I didn't, and a
                >choppy sea stirred up the sediment in the fuel tank, this in turn settled
                >in the filter and weeks later the engine speed became impossible to
                >control. The problem was a partially blocked fuel filter causing the
                >governor/injector pump to 'stonewall' and draw in air from apparently
                >secure connections resulting in an air-locked unstable governor, and hence
                >hefty speed fluctuations! This is also a cautionary tale for those of us
                >(me included) that never look inside our fuel tanks.
                >
                >Question: Have you ever checked your fuel bowl after or when motoring
                >through a rough sea - if it goes opaque or dark, you have a potential
                >problem lurking in the fuel tank. I always check my fuel bowl when tied up
                >alongside (we all do it) and not surprisingly it is perfectly clear! After
                >all, who wants to poke around the engine room when the boat is standing on
                >its end!
                >
                >In closing - my Perkins has been in the boat since new (72), has over 6600
                >hours on the clock and apart from routine maintenance is still going
                >strong.....and there are probably other personal tips that others can add.
                >A lot of my engine experience has come the hard way whilst running the
                >engine each day for 5 weeks whilst transitting the French canal system from
                >Med to Channel. Only major problem was the blocked fuel filter causing
                >unstable engine speed, this seems totally bizarre but is a known problem
                >with dirty fuel in a diesel.
                >
                >All the best
                >
                >Simon
                >Dediou#42
                >
                >ps to Bob Barker if you read this epic and want to use any of it for the
                >C&N Newsletter, please do. I am currently recovering from local hospital
                >day surgery (nose ream out) and have been told I must not play at boats for
                >48 hours. I must add that a lot of the jobs above are still waiting for
                >me to do, particularly opening up the fuel tank and getting in there - ugh!
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Katie and Simon
                > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 4:00 PM
                > Subject: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108
                >
                >
                > Hello CN team,
                >
                > All this talk about engines has got me thinking. Katie and I are
                >planning to
                > up sticks from Canada and head back to Gin Rummy in Turkey this summer.
                >By
                > the time we get to her, she'll have been sitting on the hard for almost
                >3
                > years. Initially we plan to spend a few months living on board in Turkey
                > while we refurbish her.
                >
                > I know there are lots of things to do, but my biggest concern is the
                >engine.
                > I've never left one untouched for so long before. About 6 months before
                >we
                > laid the boat up I fitted new injectors, replaced the fuel pump and had
                >the
                > high-pressure pump reconditioned with new seals. The engine was running
                >fine
                > when we left it, and I winterised it as usual, incuding pouring a bit of
                >oil
                > into the cylinders through the inlet manifold.
                >
                > When we go back I'm planning at the very least to do a top overhaul and
                > replace the cylinder head gasket, etc. But I'd also like to purchase
                > beforehand any other spares that I'm likely to need - they're not always
                > available in Turkey. Does anyone have any experience of restarting a
                > long-stored engine, and what the condition is likely to be? Also, any
                >tips
                > for do's and don'ts before I get it started?!
                >
                > I'd appreciate your thoughts.
                >
                > Simon (& Katie)
                > Gin Rummy, CN35-202
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger
                > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
                >
                >
                >
                >------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/campernicholson/
                >
                > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > campernicholson-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                >Service.
                >

                _________________________________________________________________
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              • Jon Amtrup
                Hi, Yesterday I tried too motor out of the harbour here in Oslo to enjoy the Easter aboard. But nothing happened when I put the motor in forward - and neither
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 2, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi,

                  Yesterday I tried too motor out of the harbour here in Oslo to enjoy the
                  Easter aboard. But nothing happened when I put the motor in forward - and
                  neither in back. I have a hydraulic transmission on my Perkins. The shaft (?
                  the rod between the propeller and the hydraulic box) only turns when it
                  wants too when we put here in forward/back and its not able too move the
                  boat.

                  Anyone out there that has any ideas about what I need to do to get the boat
                  going again?

                  Best Jon
                  S/Y Peldon Rose


                  -----Opprinnelig melding-----
                  Fra: Ann & Roger Haggar [mailto:racepassage@...]
                  Sendt: 2. april 2004 11:29
                  Til: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: Re: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108

                  Hi Simon. Many thanks for yr advice on Perkins 4108
                  I bought Nich 38 Hull No 117 in same condition in 1996 and have just about
                  finished the rebuild, taking in a 2 yr cruise Vancouver- Mexico and now back

                  in Vcr with the boat. Main problem found on return was to rebuild injector
                  pump after 2 yrs use. Found most internal seals perished. It could be the
                  fuel picked up in Mexico, the fuel additive, or the pump just did not like
                  the heat.
                  Thks again for the article -and- having done it, the boat rebuild that is ,
                  would be pleased to advise, for what it's worth. Rgds


                  >From: "Simon Rayfield" <srayfield@...>
                  >Reply-To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108
                  >Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2004 16:50:32 -0000
                  >
                  >Hi
                  >
                  >Use the old saying - "If it is not broken, why fix it!" I know you have
                  >already had one list from Jeff, but here is mine anyway, some things
                  >obviously rely on commonsense and are repeated. I am intrigued by the
                  >"Marvel Mystery Oil" this must be a US or Canadian product, this sort of
                  >thing is frowned upon in the UK for reasons of atmospheric polution (ie
                  >lots of smoke), we used to be able to get a very strong Redex upper
                  >cylinder lubricant additive that would "blow the engine's socks off"on
                  >start up! As you are in Turkey, be aware that several UK Yacht Charter
                  >companies operate here (Marmaris, etc), these should have competent diesel
                  >engine mechanics as part of the crews and would have contact with UK for
                  >spares, etc.
                  >
                  >The Perkins engine is extremely reliable and robust. The most important
                  >job is to change oil and filter regularly and keep the fuel and cooling
                  >systems in good health. Since yours has been laid up for some time (but
                  >has had new injectors and a squirt of oil in the bores) I would run
                  >through the following list:
                  >
                  > a.. Get the batteries topped up (if not sealed units) and fully charged
                  >up
                  > b.. Drain out the oil and change the filter. Refill with supermarket
                  >brand (cheap) diesel engine oil, these engines are unsophisticated and
                  >cheap oil is fine provided it adheres to a standard diesel oil spec. The
                  >expensive oil just contains more additives, etc.
                  > c.. Change fuel filter
                  > d.. Check fuel bowl for water, etc. If the fuel tank wasn't left full
                  >up - check fuel tank lower drain cock for water (condensation), etc if it
                  >isn't seized closed
                  > e.. Fit fuel lift pump diaphragm kit or keep a spare onboard
                  > f.. Check the engine for signs of water leakage, particularly if it
                  >could have suffered freezing temperatures
                  > g.. Replace the rubber water pump impellor, check pump shaft seal as
                  >this can leak water into the bilge and whilst in the 'black hole' check the

                  >drive belts and possibly replace if there are signs of cracking when the
                  >belt is flexed
                  > h.. Check alternator(s) are free to turn and terminals are not corroded
                  > i.. Try and get a spanner on the end pulley (when checking the water
                  >pump) and turn the engine over by hand. If you cannot turn it by hand with

                  >reasonable leverage I would start to worry - but I think this would be
                  >highly unlikely
                  > j.. Check water hoses and clips
                  > k.. I assume the boat is on the hard, so connect a freshwater hose to
                  >the seawater side and give it a good flush and check for leaks at the same
                  >time.
                  > l.. Flush freshwater side and header tank into bilge
                  > m.. Check starter motor electrics for corrosion. If they look green and

                  >horrid dismantle, clean terminals, apply vaseline and reconnect, similarly
                  >the battery and alternator terminals
                  > n.. If all of these items checks out OK - spin it over on the starter,
                  >watch for oil pressure even at cranking speed
                  > o.. Go for a start, warm it through thoroughly (give it a good run as
                  >these engines tend to run cool), check for leaks, when satisfied, shutdown

                  >and change the oil again if it is very dirty.
                  > Note: Unfortunately this will involve a prolonged run in neutral, but if

                  >you are on the hard you have no option.
                  > p.. Check the toilet and bilge pumps, as these have soft rubber
                  >diaphragms and valves - a failed toilet pump is catastrophic!
                  >Tips from a local UK Perkins agent:
                  > a.. Don't waste money on new or spare injectors, they are very expensive

                  >and last for ever if taken out occasionally and serviced by a commercial
                  >vehicle injector agent.
                  > b.. When removing or refitting an injector, take precautions to prevent
                  >carbon, etc from falling into the cylinder. If it does, use a screwdriver
                  >with a gob of grease on the end to get it out (piston on TDC) - don't trust

                  >unknown mechanics, etc., as these injectors ar messy to change and need
                  >care to get a good, longterm seal
                  > c.. Always fit a new copper ring to the injector body and preferably
                  >anneal (soften) the ring with heat before fitting in order to get a good
                  >seal. Failure to clean the seat and get a gastight fit may result in
                  >combustion gas blowing past the seat and causing a carbon build up in the
                  >recess and around the engine compartment.
                  > d.. If using a powerful decarbonizing cyclinder cleaner (Marvel Mystery
                  >Oil?) recheck the valve clearances (0.012" cold) as carbon removed from
                  >valve seats, etc may cause the clearances to change
                  >And finally - if you are worried about the cylinder head, etc., remove the
                  >injectors, buy or borrow a diesel engine compression tester and run a
                  >compression check (or watch an agent do it for you). The cylinder
                  >compression values are a first rate check of the engine condition as they
                  >can be compared to the Perkins recommended pressure and more important they

                  >should all be equal or within a few psi of each other. If these pressures
                  >are seriously different or low - you may need to strip the top end!!
                  >
                  >When (or if) you dismantle the fuel system take care to avoid air leaks
                  >and always replace the fuel filter at regular intervals. I didn't, and a
                  >choppy sea stirred up the sediment in the fuel tank, this in turn settled
                  >in the filter and weeks later the engine speed became impossible to
                  >control. The problem was a partially blocked fuel filter causing the
                  >governor/injector pump to 'stonewall' and draw in air from apparently
                  >secure connections resulting in an air-locked unstable governor, and hence
                  >hefty speed fluctuations! This is also a cautionary tale for those of us
                  >(me included) that never look inside our fuel tanks.
                  >
                  >Question: Have you ever checked your fuel bowl after or when motoring
                  >through a rough sea - if it goes opaque or dark, you have a potential
                  >problem lurking in the fuel tank. I always check my fuel bowl when tied up

                  >alongside (we all do it) and not surprisingly it is perfectly clear! After

                  >all, who wants to poke around the engine room when the boat is standing on
                  >its end!
                  >
                  >In closing - my Perkins has been in the boat since new (72), has over 6600
                  >hours on the clock and apart from routine maintenance is still going
                  >strong.....and there are probably other personal tips that others can add.

                  >A lot of my engine experience has come the hard way whilst running the
                  >engine each day for 5 weeks whilst transitting the French canal system from

                  >Med to Channel. Only major problem was the blocked fuel filter causing
                  >unstable engine speed, this seems totally bizarre but is a known problem
                  >with dirty fuel in a diesel.
                  >
                  >All the best
                  >
                  >Simon
                  >Dediou#42
                  >
                  >ps to Bob Barker if you read this epic and want to use any of it for the
                  >C&N Newsletter, please do. I am currently recovering from local hospital
                  >day surgery (nose ream out) and have been told I must not play at boats for

                  >48 hours. I must add that a lot of the jobs above are still waiting for
                  >me to do, particularly opening up the fuel tank and getting in there - ugh!
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Katie and Simon
                  > To: campernicholson@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Saturday, March 20, 2004 4:00 PM
                  > Subject: [campernicholson] Perkins 4-108
                  >
                  >
                  > Hello CN team,
                  >
                  > All this talk about engines has got me thinking. Katie and I are
                  >planning to
                  > up sticks from Canada and head back to Gin Rummy in Turkey this summer.
                  >By
                  > the time we get to her, she'll have been sitting on the hard for almost
                  >3
                  > years. Initially we plan to spend a few months living on board in Turkey
                  > while we refurbish her.
                  >
                  > I know there are lots of things to do, but my biggest concern is the
                  >engine.
                  > I've never left one untouched for so long before. About 6 months before
                  >we
                  > laid the boat up I fitted new injectors, replaced the fuel pump and had
                  >the
                  > high-pressure pump reconditioned with new seals. The engine was running
                  >fine
                  > when we left it, and I winterised it as usual, incuding pouring a bit of

                  >oil
                  > into the cylinders through the inlet manifold.
                  >
                  > When we go back I'm planning at the very least to do a top overhaul and
                  > replace the cylinder head gasket, etc. But I'd also like to purchase
                  > beforehand any other spares that I'm likely to need - they're not always
                  > available in Turkey. Does anyone have any experience of restarting a
                  > long-stored engine, and what the condition is likely to be? Also, any
                  >tips
                  > for do's and don'ts before I get it started?!
                  >
                  > I'd appreciate your thoughts.
                  >
                  > Simon (& Katie)
                  > Gin Rummy, CN35-202
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________________
                  > Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger
                  > http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >---------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  ---
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/campernicholson/
                  >
                  > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > campernicholson-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  >Service.
                  >

                  _________________________________________________________________
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                  http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-ca&page=byoa/prem&xAPID=1994&DI=1034&SU=htt
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