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Re: [campernicholson] Re: Repower input?

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  • Dennis Gibbons
    Don t mean to jump in from left field, but the Hurth on my boat mated to a 35+ hp, 3000 rpm, 4 cylinder Pathfinder, has never given me problems. Could the
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 11, 2003
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      Don't mean to jump in from left field, but the Hurth on my boat mated to a
      35+ hp, 3000 rpm, 4 cylinder Pathfinder, has never given me problems.
      Could the transmission been overheating and all you needed was a cooler (see
      Denece's email)?
      Dennis Gibbons
      S/V Dark Lady
      CN35-207
      email: dennis dash gibbons at worldnet dot att dot net
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "sverinmore" <sverinmore@...>
      To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:44 PM
      Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Repower input?


      > --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, hamiltonve@a... wrote:
      > The first thing I noticed was that the tranny did not 'clunk' when it
      > went into forward. About 300 hrs from new. Then I noticed that the
      > engine seemed to run a little rough and then the clutches would
      > disengage. I don't think the Hurth 50 was slipping. I thought I had
      > caused the problem because I didn't realize you must not sail with
      > the tranny in forward. I replaced the tranny with a Hurth 100. That
      > one lasted 50 hrs. Had it disassembled in La Paz and they found
      > nothing. Sent it to ZF Marine and they found nothing. Finally, ZF
      > Marine replaced it with a new unit. It was then I discovered that
      > the splines on the Drive Plate were battered. New drive plate. Left
      > La Paz and motored up the Baja in Dec is some of the worst weather in
      > years. Got to Ensenada, Mex on a wing and a prayer. Tranny and rive
      > plate destroyed after 75 hours. Put in new tranny and drive plate
      > and it failed on a trip to the local boat yard.
      >
      > So far I've rebuilt the shaft log, new cutlass bearing, checked the
      > runout on the prop shaft, new prop with less pitch, adjusted the
      > valves, checked the compression, rebuilt the injectors, had the
      > injector pump check for performance, new engine mounts, top end
      > overhaul, checked the flywheel and drive plate for axial and radial
      > runout, checked the injector cams for wear, and checked the valve
      > cams for wear.The engine alignment has been checked and adjusted many
      > times.
      >
      > All this to an engine with 1000 hours on it. I've had enough. From
      > what I've discovered, Hurth gears can't tolerate the torsional
      > activity from many three cylinder, high compression, high rpm diesels.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > I have the same Perkins M30/Hurth combination in my Nic 32 Mark X
      > also. Mine
      > > has less than 300 hours on it, but the only ongoing problem I seem
      > to have is
      > > excessive vibration. I'm going to try to re-align the shaft and
      > hope that
      > > that cures the problem. I'm curious, what type of problems were
      > you having with
      > > your Hurth transmissions?
      > >
      > > Good Luck,
      > >
      > >
      > > Dave
      > > Nic 32 - IL BACIO
      > > Tacoma, WA
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • WBV9803@sailmail.com
      Its an Autostream folding/feathering job. 16 inch diameter. Love it, fixed our vibration. Denece ... Do not push the reply button to respond to this message
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 11, 2003
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        Its an Autostream folding/feathering job. 16 inch diameter. Love it, fixed our vibration.

        Denece
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      • BarryR8195@aol.com
        Denece--What s the pitch on th prop?--Barry
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 11, 2003
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          Denece--What's the pitch on th prop?--Barry
        • WBV9803@sailmail.com
          It was set at 10 but we tweaked it and the Skipper says he thinks its about 9.5 now. It doesn t have quite the thrust of our old Sailor two blade...but Man O
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 12, 2003
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            It was set at 10 but we tweaked it and the Skipper says he thinks its about 9.5 now.
            It doesn't have quite the thrust of our old Sailor two blade...but Man O Man did that thing cause a vibration under power!

            Denece
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          • sverinmore
            ... gibbons@w... wrote: Thanks for your reply, Dennis. From what I ve been able to determine, manily from ZF Marine/Hurth, the problems come from three
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 13, 2003
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              --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Gibbons" <dennis-
              gibbons@w...> wrote:

              Thanks for your reply, Dennis. From what I've been able to
              determine, manily from ZF Marine/Hurth, the problems come from three
              cylinder, high compression, high rpm engines. It's related to the
              trosional activity generated by the engine. If not dealt with in
              the flywheel/drive plate design it will cause problems with Hurth
              gears.

              My frist tranny was Hurth 50 and the others were 100's. It was not
              an overheating problem. The splines were battered and the cup
              springs inside. The clutch disks themselves were relatively good.
              The clutches disengage because the ball bearings in the carrier drop
              down in their tapered grooves, apparently. It's been hard to get
              information because no one wants to admit anything, for fear of a
              lawsuit, I suppose.

              The Volvo MD2030 is the same engine as the Perkins M30 with a
              redesign on the flywheel and the drive place. Problem is I no longer
              have confidence in Hurth.

              Again, thanks for responding.


              > Don't mean to jump in from left field, but the Hurth on my boat
              mated to a
              > 35+ hp, 3000 rpm, 4 cylinder Pathfinder, has never given me
              problems.
              > Could the transmission been overheating and all you needed was a
              cooler (see
              > Denece's email)?
              > Dennis Gibbons
              > S/V Dark Lady
              > CN35-207
              > email: dennis dash gibbons at worldnet dot att dot net
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "sverinmore" <sverinmore@y...>
              > To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:44 PM
              > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Repower input?
              >
              >
              > > --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, hamiltonve@a... wrote:
              > > The first thing I noticed was that the tranny did not 'clunk'
              when it
              > > went into forward. About 300 hrs from new. Then I noticed that
              the
              > > engine seemed to run a little rough and then the clutches would
              > > disengage. I don't think the Hurth 50 was slipping. I thought I
              had
              > > caused the problem because I didn't realize you must not sail with
              > > the tranny in forward. I replaced the tranny with a Hurth 100.
              That
              > > one lasted 50 hrs. Had it disassembled in La Paz and they found
              > > nothing. Sent it to ZF Marine and they found nothing. Finally,
              ZF
              > > Marine replaced it with a new unit. It was then I discovered that
              > > the splines on the Drive Plate were battered. New drive plate.
              Left
              > > La Paz and motored up the Baja in Dec is some of the worst
              weather in
              > > years. Got to Ensenada, Mex on a wing and a prayer. Tranny and
              rive
              > > plate destroyed after 75 hours. Put in new tranny and drive plate
              > > and it failed on a trip to the local boat yard.
              > >
              > > So far I've rebuilt the shaft log, new cutlass bearing, checked
              the
              > > runout on the prop shaft, new prop with less pitch, adjusted the
              > > valves, checked the compression, rebuilt the injectors, had the
              > > injector pump check for performance, new engine mounts, top end
              > > overhaul, checked the flywheel and drive plate for axial and
              radial
              > > runout, checked the injector cams for wear, and checked the valve
              > > cams for wear.The engine alignment has been checked and adjusted
              many
              > > times.
              > >
              > > All this to an engine with 1000 hours on it. I've had enough.
              From
              > > what I've discovered, Hurth gears can't tolerate the torsional
              > > activity from many three cylinder, high compression, high rpm
              diesels.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > > I have the same Perkins M30/Hurth combination in my Nic 32 Mark
              X
              > > also. Mine
              > > > has less than 300 hours on it, but the only ongoing problem I
              seem
              > > to have is
              > > > excessive vibration. I'm going to try to re-align the shaft and
              > > hope that
              > > > that cures the problem. I'm curious, what type of problems were
              > > you having with
              > > > your Hurth transmissions?
              > > >
              > > > Good Luck,
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Dave
              > > > Nic 32 - IL BACIO
              > > > Tacoma, WA
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              > >
            • WBV9803@sailmail.com
              I don t think so. We have over 800 hours on exactly that combination...Yanmar 3 cylinder job and Hurth 150. Absolutely no problemos. BUT we were sticklers for
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 13, 2003
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                I don't think so.
                We have over 800 hours on exactly that combination...Yanmar 3 cylinder job and Hurth 150. Absolutely no problemos.
                BUT we were sticklers for alignment. And we demanded a tranny cooler (free) when the installer insisted we didn't need one and was later proved wrong (tranny got so hot it melted the wax out of our stuffing in about an hour!).

                But, if you just want a new engine and tranny....


                Denece
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              • sverinmore
                ... It looks to me that Yanmar did a better job with the flywheel and drive plate design than Perkins did when they marinized the 103-10 industrial diesels on
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 14, 2003
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                  --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, WBV9803@s... wrote:
                  It looks to me that Yanmar did a better job with the flywheel and
                  drive plate design than Perkins did when they marinized the 103-10
                  industrial diesels on which the M30 is based. Volvo took the same
                  engine and engineered a flywheel with a high rotational mass flywheel
                  and an elastameric drive plate. They don't seem to have any
                  problems. There are tens of thousands of 3 cylinder engines out
                  there that run trouble free but the M30 is not one of them. The
                  Hurth 100 I have on my engine is rated for an engine almost twice the
                  horsepower of mine. It does not overheat.

                  The engine beats the splines on the input shaft and drive plate to
                  death. I just checked the damaged on one of my old drive plates and
                  it was about .030. (tough to measure precisely) Add that to
                  matching wear on the input shaft of the tranny and you have a
                  problem. When the wear gets to that point then the torsional
                  dampening quality of the drive plate in gone. Hurth/ZF Marine told me
                  that condition would destroy the tranny. In fact, the damage occurs
                  even if the tranny is in neutral, as in battery charging at anchor.
                  They also told me the damage was caused by the engine and was not
                  warranted.

                  Believe me when I say I would rather be heading south to the Sea of
                  Cortez than north to a boatyard. This would be a more interesting
                  problem if it wasn't mine.

                  Thanks for responding.


                  > I don't think so.
                  > We have over 800 hours on exactly that combination...Yanmar 3
                  cylinder job and Hurth 150. Absolutely no problemos.
                  > BUT we were sticklers for alignment. And we demanded a tranny
                  cooler (free) when the installer insisted we didn't need one and was
                  later proved wrong (tranny got so hot it melted the wax out of our
                  stuffing in about an hour!).
                  >
                  > But, if you just want a new engine and tranny....
                  >
                  >
                  > Denece
                  > -------------------------------------------------
                  > Do not push the "reply" button to respond to this
                  > message if that includes the text of this original
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                  > very low-speed radio link.
                  >
                  > The most concise way to reply is to send a NEW message
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                  > from your reply.
                  >
                  > Replies should not contain attachments and should be
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                  >
                  > This email was delivered by an HF private coast station
                  > in the Maritime Mobile Radio Service, operated by the
                  > SailMail Association, a non-profit association of yacht
                  > owners. For more information on this service or on the
                  > SailMail Association, please see the web site at:
                  > http://www.sailmail.com
                • WBV9803@sailmail.com
                  Ah, gotcha. Now I see what you are saying. I sympathize with your wish to be going south rather than doing the limp back to San Diego! A repower can be done
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 16, 2003
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                    Ah, gotcha. Now I see what you are saying.
                    I sympathize with your wish to be going south rather than doing the limp back to San Diego! A repower can be done fairly quickly (ask Iona!) but perhaps the expense will be a setback to this years' plan.

                    Denece
                    Blue Pearl
                    currently in La Paz Mexico
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                  • Michael Foreman
                    I am the proud owner of Nicholson 35 Blue Tarn no. 176 built 1979. I keep her in Campbeltown, on the west coast of Scotland. I would like to replace the
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                      I am the proud owner of Nicholson 35 'Blue Tarn' no. 176 built 1979. I keep her in Campbeltown, on the west coast of Scotland.
                      I would  like to replace the original Watermota engine and Hurth v drive gearbox.
                       
                      I would appreciate advice from members as to which engine would be best? I am considering either a Yanmar type 3JH4E or a Yanmar 3YM30. also what reduction ratio and propellor would be best.
                       
                      Michael
                    • BarryR8195@aol.com
                      I repowered my C & N 35 (#151) with a Yanmar 3JH3E & matching gearbox. The Yanmar is a wonderful engine. It is smaller and lighter than the Watermota,
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                        I repowered my C & N 35 (#151) with a Yanmar 3JH3E  & matching gearbox.  The Yanmar is a wonderful engine.  It is smaller and lighter than the Watermota, easier to work on (oil changes, etc.) and produces more power.  I also changed to a 3 blade prop.  I  was well pleased with the engine.
                         
                        I subsequently sold the boat for reasons unrelated to the engine. -Barry Roberts




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                      • torrisdale
                        ... The ... Watermota, ... -Barry ... http://www.aol.com ... Tarn . Do you think that the 30 hp Yanmar 3YM30 which is smaller, lighter and cheaper! than the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                          --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, BarryR8195@... wrote:
                          >
                          > I repowered my C & N 35 (#151) with a Yanmar 3JH3E & matching gearbox.
                          The
                          > Yanmar is a wonderful engine. It is smaller and lighter than the
                          Watermota,
                          > easier to work on (oil changes, etc.) and produces more power. I also
                          > changed to a 3 blade prop. I was well pleased with the engine.
                          >
                          > I subsequently sold the boat for reasons unrelated to the engine.
                          -Barry
                          > Roberts
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ************************************** See what's new at
                          http://www.aol.com
                          >Thank you for reply to my question re. repowering my Nicholson 35 'Blue
                          Tarn'. Do you think that the 30 hp Yanmar 3YM30 which is smaller,
                          lighter and cheaper! than the 40 hp Yanmar 3JH4E, would be sufficientlly
                          powerful for a Nicholson 35?

                          Michael
                        • BarryR8195@aol.com
                          I would go with the 3JH. While the smaller engine would probably drive the boat OK through smooth water, it s nice to know that you have the extra power to
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                            I would go with the 3JH.  While the smaller engine would probably drive the boat OK through smooth water, it's nice to know that you have the extra power to drive into a head wind or chop or to help get you off a sand bar!  There's even room for a larger 4JH,  but that's probably over kill.--Barry Roberts




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                          • Johns
                            Hi I am also considering changing to a 30hp Yanmar. I understand some have changed to this already, have you still a V-drive or have you installed saildrive?
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 19, 2007
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                              Hi
                              I am also considering changing to a 30hp Yanmar. I understand some have changed to this already, have you still a V-drive or have you installed saildrive?
                               
                              /Mick
                              Addiena Nic35 #187
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 6:19 PM
                              Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Re:Repower input?

                              I would go with the 3JH.  While the smaller engine would probably drive the boat OK through smooth water, it's nice to know that you have the extra power to drive into a head wind or chop or to help get you off a sand bar!  There's even room for a larger 4JH,  but that's probably over kill.--Barry Roberts




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