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Re: Repower input?

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  • sverinmore
    ... The first thing I noticed was that the tranny did not clunk when it went into forward. About 300 hrs from new. Then I noticed that the engine seemed to
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 11, 2003
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      --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, hamiltonve@a... wrote:
      The first thing I noticed was that the tranny did not 'clunk' when it
      went into forward. About 300 hrs from new. Then I noticed that the
      engine seemed to run a little rough and then the clutches would
      disengage. I don't think the Hurth 50 was slipping. I thought I had
      caused the problem because I didn't realize you must not sail with
      the tranny in forward. I replaced the tranny with a Hurth 100. That
      one lasted 50 hrs. Had it disassembled in La Paz and they found
      nothing. Sent it to ZF Marine and they found nothing. Finally, ZF
      Marine replaced it with a new unit. It was then I discovered that
      the splines on the Drive Plate were battered. New drive plate. Left
      La Paz and motored up the Baja in Dec is some of the worst weather in
      years. Got to Ensenada, Mex on a wing and a prayer. Tranny and rive
      plate destroyed after 75 hours. Put in new tranny and drive plate
      and it failed on a trip to the local boat yard.

      So far I've rebuilt the shaft log, new cutlass bearing, checked the
      runout on the prop shaft, new prop with less pitch, adjusted the
      valves, checked the compression, rebuilt the injectors, had the
      injector pump check for performance, new engine mounts, top end
      overhaul, checked the flywheel and drive plate for axial and radial
      runout, checked the injector cams for wear, and checked the valve
      cams for wear.The engine alignment has been checked and adjusted many
      times.

      All this to an engine with 1000 hours on it. I've had enough. From
      what I've discovered, Hurth gears can't tolerate the torsional
      activity from many three cylinder, high compression, high rpm diesels.






      > I have the same Perkins M30/Hurth combination in my Nic 32 Mark X
      also. Mine
      > has less than 300 hours on it, but the only ongoing problem I seem
      to have is
      > excessive vibration. I'm going to try to re-align the shaft and
      hope that
      > that cures the problem. I'm curious, what type of problems were
      you having with
      > your Hurth transmissions?
      >
      > Good Luck,
      >
      >
      > Dave
      > Nic 32 - IL BACIO
      > Tacoma, WA
    • Dennis Gibbons
      Don t mean to jump in from left field, but the Hurth on my boat mated to a 35+ hp, 3000 rpm, 4 cylinder Pathfinder, has never given me problems. Could the
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 11, 2003
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        Don't mean to jump in from left field, but the Hurth on my boat mated to a
        35+ hp, 3000 rpm, 4 cylinder Pathfinder, has never given me problems.
        Could the transmission been overheating and all you needed was a cooler (see
        Denece's email)?
        Dennis Gibbons
        S/V Dark Lady
        CN35-207
        email: dennis dash gibbons at worldnet dot att dot net
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "sverinmore" <sverinmore@...>
        To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:44 PM
        Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Repower input?


        > --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, hamiltonve@a... wrote:
        > The first thing I noticed was that the tranny did not 'clunk' when it
        > went into forward. About 300 hrs from new. Then I noticed that the
        > engine seemed to run a little rough and then the clutches would
        > disengage. I don't think the Hurth 50 was slipping. I thought I had
        > caused the problem because I didn't realize you must not sail with
        > the tranny in forward. I replaced the tranny with a Hurth 100. That
        > one lasted 50 hrs. Had it disassembled in La Paz and they found
        > nothing. Sent it to ZF Marine and they found nothing. Finally, ZF
        > Marine replaced it with a new unit. It was then I discovered that
        > the splines on the Drive Plate were battered. New drive plate. Left
        > La Paz and motored up the Baja in Dec is some of the worst weather in
        > years. Got to Ensenada, Mex on a wing and a prayer. Tranny and rive
        > plate destroyed after 75 hours. Put in new tranny and drive plate
        > and it failed on a trip to the local boat yard.
        >
        > So far I've rebuilt the shaft log, new cutlass bearing, checked the
        > runout on the prop shaft, new prop with less pitch, adjusted the
        > valves, checked the compression, rebuilt the injectors, had the
        > injector pump check for performance, new engine mounts, top end
        > overhaul, checked the flywheel and drive plate for axial and radial
        > runout, checked the injector cams for wear, and checked the valve
        > cams for wear.The engine alignment has been checked and adjusted many
        > times.
        >
        > All this to an engine with 1000 hours on it. I've had enough. From
        > what I've discovered, Hurth gears can't tolerate the torsional
        > activity from many three cylinder, high compression, high rpm diesels.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > I have the same Perkins M30/Hurth combination in my Nic 32 Mark X
        > also. Mine
        > > has less than 300 hours on it, but the only ongoing problem I seem
        > to have is
        > > excessive vibration. I'm going to try to re-align the shaft and
        > hope that
        > > that cures the problem. I'm curious, what type of problems were
        > you having with
        > > your Hurth transmissions?
        > >
        > > Good Luck,
        > >
        > >
        > > Dave
        > > Nic 32 - IL BACIO
        > > Tacoma, WA
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • WBV9803@sailmail.com
        Its an Autostream folding/feathering job. 16 inch diameter. Love it, fixed our vibration. Denece ... Do not push the reply button to respond to this message
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 11, 2003
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          Its an Autostream folding/feathering job. 16 inch diameter. Love it, fixed our vibration.

          Denece
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        • BarryR8195@aol.com
          Denece--What s the pitch on th prop?--Barry
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 11, 2003
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            Denece--What's the pitch on th prop?--Barry
          • WBV9803@sailmail.com
            It was set at 10 but we tweaked it and the Skipper says he thinks its about 9.5 now. It doesn t have quite the thrust of our old Sailor two blade...but Man O
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 12, 2003
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              It was set at 10 but we tweaked it and the Skipper says he thinks its about 9.5 now.
              It doesn't have quite the thrust of our old Sailor two blade...but Man O Man did that thing cause a vibration under power!

              Denece
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            • sverinmore
              ... gibbons@w... wrote: Thanks for your reply, Dennis. From what I ve been able to determine, manily from ZF Marine/Hurth, the problems come from three
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 13, 2003
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                --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Gibbons" <dennis-
                gibbons@w...> wrote:

                Thanks for your reply, Dennis. From what I've been able to
                determine, manily from ZF Marine/Hurth, the problems come from three
                cylinder, high compression, high rpm engines. It's related to the
                trosional activity generated by the engine. If not dealt with in
                the flywheel/drive plate design it will cause problems with Hurth
                gears.

                My frist tranny was Hurth 50 and the others were 100's. It was not
                an overheating problem. The splines were battered and the cup
                springs inside. The clutch disks themselves were relatively good.
                The clutches disengage because the ball bearings in the carrier drop
                down in their tapered grooves, apparently. It's been hard to get
                information because no one wants to admit anything, for fear of a
                lawsuit, I suppose.

                The Volvo MD2030 is the same engine as the Perkins M30 with a
                redesign on the flywheel and the drive place. Problem is I no longer
                have confidence in Hurth.

                Again, thanks for responding.


                > Don't mean to jump in from left field, but the Hurth on my boat
                mated to a
                > 35+ hp, 3000 rpm, 4 cylinder Pathfinder, has never given me
                problems.
                > Could the transmission been overheating and all you needed was a
                cooler (see
                > Denece's email)?
                > Dennis Gibbons
                > S/V Dark Lady
                > CN35-207
                > email: dennis dash gibbons at worldnet dot att dot net
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "sverinmore" <sverinmore@y...>
                > To: <campernicholson@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 5:44 PM
                > Subject: [campernicholson] Re: Repower input?
                >
                >
                > > --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, hamiltonve@a... wrote:
                > > The first thing I noticed was that the tranny did not 'clunk'
                when it
                > > went into forward. About 300 hrs from new. Then I noticed that
                the
                > > engine seemed to run a little rough and then the clutches would
                > > disengage. I don't think the Hurth 50 was slipping. I thought I
                had
                > > caused the problem because I didn't realize you must not sail with
                > > the tranny in forward. I replaced the tranny with a Hurth 100.
                That
                > > one lasted 50 hrs. Had it disassembled in La Paz and they found
                > > nothing. Sent it to ZF Marine and they found nothing. Finally,
                ZF
                > > Marine replaced it with a new unit. It was then I discovered that
                > > the splines on the Drive Plate were battered. New drive plate.
                Left
                > > La Paz and motored up the Baja in Dec is some of the worst
                weather in
                > > years. Got to Ensenada, Mex on a wing and a prayer. Tranny and
                rive
                > > plate destroyed after 75 hours. Put in new tranny and drive plate
                > > and it failed on a trip to the local boat yard.
                > >
                > > So far I've rebuilt the shaft log, new cutlass bearing, checked
                the
                > > runout on the prop shaft, new prop with less pitch, adjusted the
                > > valves, checked the compression, rebuilt the injectors, had the
                > > injector pump check for performance, new engine mounts, top end
                > > overhaul, checked the flywheel and drive plate for axial and
                radial
                > > runout, checked the injector cams for wear, and checked the valve
                > > cams for wear.The engine alignment has been checked and adjusted
                many
                > > times.
                > >
                > > All this to an engine with 1000 hours on it. I've had enough.
                From
                > > what I've discovered, Hurth gears can't tolerate the torsional
                > > activity from many three cylinder, high compression, high rpm
                diesels.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > > I have the same Perkins M30/Hurth combination in my Nic 32 Mark
                X
                > > also. Mine
                > > > has less than 300 hours on it, but the only ongoing problem I
                seem
                > > to have is
                > > > excessive vibration. I'm going to try to re-align the shaft and
                > > hope that
                > > > that cures the problem. I'm curious, what type of problems were
                > > you having with
                > > > your Hurth transmissions?
                > > >
                > > > Good Luck,
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Dave
                > > > Nic 32 - IL BACIO
                > > > Tacoma, WA
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • WBV9803@sailmail.com
                I don t think so. We have over 800 hours on exactly that combination...Yanmar 3 cylinder job and Hurth 150. Absolutely no problemos. BUT we were sticklers for
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 13, 2003
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                  I don't think so.
                  We have over 800 hours on exactly that combination...Yanmar 3 cylinder job and Hurth 150. Absolutely no problemos.
                  BUT we were sticklers for alignment. And we demanded a tranny cooler (free) when the installer insisted we didn't need one and was later proved wrong (tranny got so hot it melted the wax out of our stuffing in about an hour!).

                  But, if you just want a new engine and tranny....


                  Denece
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                • sverinmore
                  ... It looks to me that Yanmar did a better job with the flywheel and drive plate design than Perkins did when they marinized the 103-10 industrial diesels on
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 14, 2003
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                    --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, WBV9803@s... wrote:
                    It looks to me that Yanmar did a better job with the flywheel and
                    drive plate design than Perkins did when they marinized the 103-10
                    industrial diesels on which the M30 is based. Volvo took the same
                    engine and engineered a flywheel with a high rotational mass flywheel
                    and an elastameric drive plate. They don't seem to have any
                    problems. There are tens of thousands of 3 cylinder engines out
                    there that run trouble free but the M30 is not one of them. The
                    Hurth 100 I have on my engine is rated for an engine almost twice the
                    horsepower of mine. It does not overheat.

                    The engine beats the splines on the input shaft and drive plate to
                    death. I just checked the damaged on one of my old drive plates and
                    it was about .030. (tough to measure precisely) Add that to
                    matching wear on the input shaft of the tranny and you have a
                    problem. When the wear gets to that point then the torsional
                    dampening quality of the drive plate in gone. Hurth/ZF Marine told me
                    that condition would destroy the tranny. In fact, the damage occurs
                    even if the tranny is in neutral, as in battery charging at anchor.
                    They also told me the damage was caused by the engine and was not
                    warranted.

                    Believe me when I say I would rather be heading south to the Sea of
                    Cortez than north to a boatyard. This would be a more interesting
                    problem if it wasn't mine.

                    Thanks for responding.


                    > I don't think so.
                    > We have over 800 hours on exactly that combination...Yanmar 3
                    cylinder job and Hurth 150. Absolutely no problemos.
                    > BUT we were sticklers for alignment. And we demanded a tranny
                    cooler (free) when the installer insisted we didn't need one and was
                    later proved wrong (tranny got so hot it melted the wax out of our
                    stuffing in about an hour!).
                    >
                    > But, if you just want a new engine and tranny....
                    >
                    >
                    > Denece
                    > -------------------------------------------------
                    > Do not push the "reply" button to respond to this
                    > message if that includes the text of this original
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                    > very low-speed radio link.
                    >
                    > The most concise way to reply is to send a NEW message
                    > to: WBV9803@s...
                    > If you DO use your reply button, be sure to delete
                    > the original message text and these instructions
                    > from your reply.
                    >
                    > Replies should not contain attachments and should be
                    > less than 5 kBytes (2 text pages) in length.
                    >
                    > This email was delivered by an HF private coast station
                    > in the Maritime Mobile Radio Service, operated by the
                    > SailMail Association, a non-profit association of yacht
                    > owners. For more information on this service or on the
                    > SailMail Association, please see the web site at:
                    > http://www.sailmail.com
                  • WBV9803@sailmail.com
                    Ah, gotcha. Now I see what you are saying. I sympathize with your wish to be going south rather than doing the limp back to San Diego! A repower can be done
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 16, 2003
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                      Ah, gotcha. Now I see what you are saying.
                      I sympathize with your wish to be going south rather than doing the limp back to San Diego! A repower can be done fairly quickly (ask Iona!) but perhaps the expense will be a setback to this years' plan.

                      Denece
                      Blue Pearl
                      currently in La Paz Mexico
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                      SailMail Association, a non-profit association of yacht
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                    • Michael Foreman
                      I am the proud owner of Nicholson 35 Blue Tarn no. 176 built 1979. I keep her in Campbeltown, on the west coast of Scotland. I would like to replace the
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                        I am the proud owner of Nicholson 35 'Blue Tarn' no. 176 built 1979. I keep her in Campbeltown, on the west coast of Scotland.
                        I would  like to replace the original Watermota engine and Hurth v drive gearbox.
                         
                        I would appreciate advice from members as to which engine would be best? I am considering either a Yanmar type 3JH4E or a Yanmar 3YM30. also what reduction ratio and propellor would be best.
                         
                        Michael
                      • BarryR8195@aol.com
                        I repowered my C & N 35 (#151) with a Yanmar 3JH3E & matching gearbox. The Yanmar is a wonderful engine. It is smaller and lighter than the Watermota,
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                          I repowered my C & N 35 (#151) with a Yanmar 3JH3E  & matching gearbox.  The Yanmar is a wonderful engine.  It is smaller and lighter than the Watermota, easier to work on (oil changes, etc.) and produces more power.  I also changed to a 3 blade prop.  I  was well pleased with the engine.
                           
                          I subsequently sold the boat for reasons unrelated to the engine. -Barry Roberts




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                        • torrisdale
                          ... The ... Watermota, ... -Barry ... http://www.aol.com ... Tarn . Do you think that the 30 hp Yanmar 3YM30 which is smaller, lighter and cheaper! than the
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                            --- In campernicholson@yahoogroups.com, BarryR8195@... wrote:
                            >
                            > I repowered my C & N 35 (#151) with a Yanmar 3JH3E & matching gearbox.
                            The
                            > Yanmar is a wonderful engine. It is smaller and lighter than the
                            Watermota,
                            > easier to work on (oil changes, etc.) and produces more power. I also
                            > changed to a 3 blade prop. I was well pleased with the engine.
                            >
                            > I subsequently sold the boat for reasons unrelated to the engine.
                            -Barry
                            > Roberts
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ************************************** See what's new at
                            http://www.aol.com
                            >Thank you for reply to my question re. repowering my Nicholson 35 'Blue
                            Tarn'. Do you think that the 30 hp Yanmar 3YM30 which is smaller,
                            lighter and cheaper! than the 40 hp Yanmar 3JH4E, would be sufficientlly
                            powerful for a Nicholson 35?

                            Michael
                          • BarryR8195@aol.com
                            I would go with the 3JH. While the smaller engine would probably drive the boat OK through smooth water, it s nice to know that you have the extra power to
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 17, 2007
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                              I would go with the 3JH.  While the smaller engine would probably drive the boat OK through smooth water, it's nice to know that you have the extra power to drive into a head wind or chop or to help get you off a sand bar!  There's even room for a larger 4JH,  but that's probably over kill.--Barry Roberts




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                            • Johns
                              Hi I am also considering changing to a 30hp Yanmar. I understand some have changed to this already, have you still a V-drive or have you installed saildrive?
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 19, 2007
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                                Hi
                                I am also considering changing to a 30hp Yanmar. I understand some have changed to this already, have you still a V-drive or have you installed saildrive?
                                 
                                /Mick
                                Addiena Nic35 #187
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 6:19 PM
                                Subject: Re: [campernicholson] Re:Repower input?

                                I would go with the 3JH.  While the smaller engine would probably drive the boat OK through smooth water, it's nice to know that you have the extra power to drive into a head wind or chop or to help get you off a sand bar!  There's even room for a larger 4JH,  but that's probably over kill.--Barry Roberts




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