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Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Kilar's in Tokarnia and/or Nagorzany

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  • Debbie Greenlee
    Jim, Are we talking Roman Catholic or Greek Catholic? Tokarnia does belong to the Bukowsko Roman Catholic church. I have those records so if you d like me to
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 10, 2009
      Jim,

      Are we talking Roman Catholic or Greek Catholic?

      Tokarnia does belong to the Bukowsko Roman Catholic church. I have
      those records so if you'd like me to do a look-up for a donation to
      the church contact me off-list.

      Debbie



      BigJimInDC wrote:
      > In the past 24 hours I realized that an assumption I had made was incorrect
      in that my 2nd great-grandparents Hnat Turko and Mary (Kilar) Turko were
      married in Plonna where Hnat's family was from. Once I scrapped that
      assumption, I found Mary's immigration information, along with a
      marriage
      record for the two of them in Luzerne, PA (after they immigrated to the
      USA).

      From the immigration records, I've traced Mary back to the village of
      Tokarnia (in the BT). And from searching past posts to this list, the
      Kilar name seems to originate in the BT area in the village of
      Nagorzany.
      >
      > That said, Mary Kilar was born roughly in 1864, I presume either in
      Tokarnia or Nagorzany. In reviewing the list of record books on Philip's
      web site (http://semanchuk.com/gen/data/BukowskoGminaArchive.html), I can
      see that both of those villages have books, but the time frames they cover
      don't fit the time frame of my 2nd great-grandmother's birth. Anyone
      have any pointers on where I should look next? I think I saw somewhere
      that Tokarnia at least might be covered by Bukowsko's church records.
      >
      > Thanks,
      >
      > Jim
    • Philip Semanchuk
      ... Hi Jim, Prior to WWII, Nagorzany was a mostly Polish/ROman Catholic village. Some of the church books are in Nowotaniec:
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 10, 2009
        On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:23 AM, BigJimInDC wrote:

        > In the past 24 hours I realized that an assumption I had made was
        > incorrect in that my 2nd great-grandparents Hnat Turko and Mary
        > (Kilar) Turko were married in Plonna where Hnat's family was from.
        > Once I scrapped that assumption, I found Mary's immigration
        > information, along with a marriage record for the two of them in
        > Luzerne, PA (after they immigrated to the USA). From the
        > immigration records, I've traced Mary back to the village of
        > Tokarnia (in the BT). And from searching past posts to this list,
        > the Kilar name seems to originate in the BT area in the village of
        > Nagorzany.
        >
        > That said, Mary Kilar was born roughly in 1864, I presume either in
        > Tokarnia or Nagorzany. In reviewing the list of record books on
        > Philip's web site (http://semanchuk.com/gen/data/BukowskoGminaArchive.html
        > ), I can see that both of those villages have books, but the time
        > frames they cover don't fit the time frame of my 2nd great-
        > grandmother's birth. Anyone have any pointers on where I should
        > look next? I think I saw somewhere that Tokarnia at least might be
        > covered by Bukowsko's church records.

        Hi Jim,
        Prior to WWII, Nagorzany was a mostly Polish/ROman Catholic village.
        Some of the church books are in Nowotaniec:
        http://semanchuk.com/gen/data/NowotaniecChurchArchive.html

        Tokarnia, on the other hand, was mostly Lemko/Greek Catholic. The few
        Roman Catholics in Tokarnia would have been affiliated with the RC
        parish in Bukowsko. For the majority GCs, I think they had their own
        church in Tokarnia. I don't know where those records ended up.

        If you could figure out whether Mary was GC or RC, that would give you
        a hint as to where she was born.

        Hope this helps
        P
      • BigJimInDC
        A quick thanks for Debbie and Philip for the questions and advice. As I wrote directly to Debbie, without assuming something, I really don t know whether the
        Message 3 of 6 , Nov 11, 2009
          A quick thanks for Debbie and Philip for the questions and advice. As I wrote directly to Debbie, without assuming something, I really don't know whether the Kilar family was RC or GC. The rest of my ancestry is GC or Orthodox, but that doesn't mean she was. In fact, given that Kilar comes up as a "Galician German" name, could that family even be something other than RC or GC, such as Protestant? I'm venturing into unknown territory when it comes to Germans in Galicia...

          --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Philip Semanchuk <philip@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:23 AM, BigJimInDC wrote:
          >
          > > In the past 24 hours I realized that an assumption I had made was
          > > incorrect in that my 2nd great-grandparents Hnat Turko and Mary
          > > (Kilar) Turko were married in Plonna where Hnat's family was from.
          > > Once I scrapped that assumption, I found Mary's immigration
          > > information, along with a marriage record for the two of them in
          > > Luzerne, PA (after they immigrated to the USA). From the
          > > immigration records, I've traced Mary back to the village of
          > > Tokarnia (in the BT). And from searching past posts to this list,
          > > the Kilar name seems to originate in the BT area in the village of
          > > Nagorzany.
          > >
          > > That said, Mary Kilar was born roughly in 1864, I presume either in
          > > Tokarnia or Nagorzany. In reviewing the list of record books on
          > > Philip's web site (http://semanchuk.com/gen/data/BukowskoGminaArchive.html
          > > ), I can see that both of those villages have books, but the time
          > > frames they cover don't fit the time frame of my 2nd great-
          > > grandmother's birth. Anyone have any pointers on where I should
          > > look next? I think I saw somewhere that Tokarnia at least might be
          > > covered by Bukowsko's church records.
          >
          > Hi Jim,
          > Prior to WWII, Nagorzany was a mostly Polish/ROman Catholic village.
          > Some of the church books are in Nowotaniec:
          > http://semanchuk.com/gen/data/NowotaniecChurchArchive.html
          >
          > Tokarnia, on the other hand, was mostly Lemko/Greek Catholic. The few
          > Roman Catholics in Tokarnia would have been affiliated with the RC
          > parish in Bukowsko. For the majority GCs, I think they had their own
          > church in Tokarnia. I don't know where those records ended up.
          >
          > If you could figure out whether Mary was GC or RC, that would give you
          > a hint as to where she was born.
          >
          > Hope this helps
          > P
          >
        • Philip Semanchuk
          ... Good news for you; I know a bit about them as that s where my Mom s family is from. It s one of the strange things about my family that my German-speaking
          Message 4 of 6 , Nov 11, 2009
            On Nov 11, 2009, at 12:24 PM, BigJimInDC wrote:

            > A quick thanks for Debbie and Philip for the questions and advice.
            > As I wrote directly to Debbie, without assuming something, I really
            > don't know whether the Kilar family was RC or GC. The rest of my
            > ancestry is GC or Orthodox, but that doesn't mean she was. In fact,
            > given that Kilar comes up as a "Galician German" name, could that
            > family even be something other than RC or GC, such as Protestant?
            > I'm venturing into unknown territory when it comes to Germans in
            > Galicia...

            Good news for you; I know a bit about them as that's where my Mom's
            family is from. It's one of the strange things about my family that my
            German-speaking grandparents came from further *east* in Europe than
            my Slavic-speaking grandparents.

            A point about terminology -- 99.8% of the conversations on the Web
            refer to these people as Galician Germans. I don't like that term as
            it connotes that they came from Germany which didn't exist as a
            country until 1871. The only problem is that there's no serviceable
            alternative. "Germanic" as opposed to "German" is OK, but that only
            works for the adjectival form. Me, I settled on "Galizien Deutsche"
            although its not really better, just different. As long as you keep in
            mind that the "German" in "Galizien Germans" mostly doesn't mean "from
            the modern state of Germany" but "from areas of Europe that spoke
            German and had a Germanic culture".

            With that lengthy intro out of the way, here's some stuff that I wrote
            about these people (whatever you want to call them):
            http://semanchuk.com/gen/JustWhoDoYouThinkYouAre/GalizienDeutsche.html


            The late 1700s immigration was generally done en masse, so the
            emigrees tended to settle in clusters in existing towns or even found
            entirely new villages. A lot of the settlement was in southern Poland
            and western Ukraine with some in Russia too. I'm using the modern
            names for these countries; back then a lot of it was Austria-Hungary.
            Here's a map:
            http://semanchuk.com/gen/maps/unterschutz.html

            They occasionally intermarried with the Polish, Ukrainian and Russian
            neighbors, so your Kilars could have been one of those. You are right
            that most of them were Protestant, but some were Roman Catholic.

            In addition, lots of Germanic emigration happened before the mass
            emigration in the late 1700s. I know a lot less about that period.
            This emigration was less organized and I suspect that individuals and
            families moved to towns and villages without any significant pre-
            existing Germanic population.

            Where did you get the information that Kilar is a "Galician German"
            name? I guess I should have asked that question first.


            Cheers
            P


            >
            > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Philip Semanchuk
            > <philip@...> wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >> On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:23 AM, BigJimInDC wrote:
            >>
            >>> In the past 24 hours I realized that an assumption I had made was
            >>> incorrect in that my 2nd great-grandparents Hnat Turko and Mary
            >>> (Kilar) Turko were married in Plonna where Hnat's family was from.
            >>> Once I scrapped that assumption, I found Mary's immigration
            >>> information, along with a marriage record for the two of them in
            >>> Luzerne, PA (after they immigrated to the USA). From the
            >>> immigration records, I've traced Mary back to the village of
            >>> Tokarnia (in the BT). And from searching past posts to this list,
            >>> the Kilar name seems to originate in the BT area in the village of
            >>> Nagorzany.
            >>>
            >>> That said, Mary Kilar was born roughly in 1864, I presume either in
            >>> Tokarnia or Nagorzany. In reviewing the list of record books on
            >>> Philip's web site (http://semanchuk.com/gen/data/BukowskoGminaArchive.html
            >>> ), I can see that both of those villages have books, but the time
            >>> frames they cover don't fit the time frame of my 2nd great-
            >>> grandmother's birth. Anyone have any pointers on where I should
            >>> look next? I think I saw somewhere that Tokarnia at least might be
            >>> covered by Bukowsko's church records.
            >>
            >> Hi Jim,
            >> Prior to WWII, Nagorzany was a mostly Polish/ROman Catholic village.
            >> Some of the church books are in Nowotaniec:
            >> http://semanchuk.com/gen/data/NowotaniecChurchArchive.html
            >>
            >> Tokarnia, on the other hand, was mostly Lemko/Greek Catholic. The few
            >> Roman Catholics in Tokarnia would have been affiliated with the RC
            >> parish in Bukowsko. For the majority GCs, I think they had their own
            >> church in Tokarnia. I don't know where those records ended up.
            >>
            >> If you could figure out whether Mary was GC or RC, that would give
            >> you
            >> a hint as to where she was born.
            >>
            >> Hope this helps
            >> P
            >>
            >
            >
          • BigJimInDC
            Philip, Here is the BT post from a while back that lead me to the German association for Kilar/Kielar:
            Message 5 of 6 , Nov 17, 2009
              Philip,

              Here is the BT post from a while back that lead me to the German association for Kilar/Kielar:

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bukowsko_triangle/message/1226

              And I totally get what you're saying about the "Galizien Deutsche" and terminology. And I had already read your web page on it too. Good stuff!

              Jim


              --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Philip Semanchuk <philip@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > On Nov 11, 2009, at 12:24 PM, BigJimInDC wrote:
              >
              > > A quick thanks for Debbie and Philip for the questions and advice.
              > > As I wrote directly to Debbie, without assuming something, I really
              > > don't know whether the Kilar family was RC or GC. The rest of my
              > > ancestry is GC or Orthodox, but that doesn't mean she was. In fact,
              > > given that Kilar comes up as a "Galician German" name, could that
              > > family even be something other than RC or GC, such as Protestant?
              > > I'm venturing into unknown territory when it comes to Germans in
              > > Galicia...
              >
              > Good news for you; I know a bit about them as that's where my Mom's
              > family is from. It's one of the strange things about my family that my
              > German-speaking grandparents came from further *east* in Europe than
              > my Slavic-speaking grandparents.
              >
              > A point about terminology -- 99.8% of the conversations on the Web
              > refer to these people as Galician Germans. I don't like that term as
              > it connotes that they came from Germany which didn't exist as a
              > country until 1871. The only problem is that there's no serviceable
              > alternative. "Germanic" as opposed to "German" is OK, but that only
              > works for the adjectival form. Me, I settled on "Galizien Deutsche"
              > although its not really better, just different. As long as you keep in
              > mind that the "German" in "Galizien Germans" mostly doesn't mean "from
              > the modern state of Germany" but "from areas of Europe that spoke
              > German and had a Germanic culture".
              >
              > With that lengthy intro out of the way, here's some stuff that I wrote
              > about these people (whatever you want to call them):
              > http://semanchuk.com/gen/JustWhoDoYouThinkYouAre/GalizienDeutsche.html
              >
              >
              > The late 1700s immigration was generally done en masse, so the
              > emigrees tended to settle in clusters in existing towns or even found
              > entirely new villages. A lot of the settlement was in southern Poland
              > and western Ukraine with some in Russia too. I'm using the modern
              > names for these countries; back then a lot of it was Austria-Hungary.
              > Here's a map:
              > http://semanchuk.com/gen/maps/unterschutz.html
              >
              > They occasionally intermarried with the Polish, Ukrainian and Russian
              > neighbors, so your Kilars could have been one of those. You are right
              > that most of them were Protestant, but some were Roman Catholic.
              >
              > In addition, lots of Germanic emigration happened before the mass
              > emigration in the late 1700s. I know a lot less about that period.
              > This emigration was less organized and I suspect that individuals and
              > families moved to towns and villages without any significant pre-
              > existing Germanic population.
              >
              > Where did you get the information that Kilar is a "Galician German"
              > name? I guess I should have asked that question first.
              >
              >
              > Cheers
              > P
              >
              >
              > >
              > > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Philip Semanchuk
              > > <philip@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> On Nov 10, 2009, at 11:23 AM, BigJimInDC wrote:
              > >>
              > >>> In the past 24 hours I realized that an assumption I had made was
              > >>> incorrect in that my 2nd great-grandparents Hnat Turko and Mary
              > >>> (Kilar) Turko were married in Plonna where Hnat's family was from.
              > >>> Once I scrapped that assumption, I found Mary's immigration
              > >>> information, along with a marriage record for the two of them in
              > >>> Luzerne, PA (after they immigrated to the USA). From the
              > >>> immigration records, I've traced Mary back to the village of
              > >>> Tokarnia (in the BT). And from searching past posts to this list,
              > >>> the Kilar name seems to originate in the BT area in the village of
              > >>> Nagorzany.
              > >>>
              > >>> That said, Mary Kilar was born roughly in 1864, I presume either in
              > >>> Tokarnia or Nagorzany. In reviewing the list of record books on
              > >>> Philip's web site (http://semanchuk.com/gen/data/BukowskoGminaArchive.html
              > >>> ), I can see that both of those villages have books, but the time
              > >>> frames they cover don't fit the time frame of my 2nd great-
              > >>> grandmother's birth. Anyone have any pointers on where I should
              > >>> look next? I think I saw somewhere that Tokarnia at least might be
              > >>> covered by Bukowsko's church records.
              > >>
              > >> Hi Jim,
              > >> Prior to WWII, Nagorzany was a mostly Polish/ROman Catholic village.
              > >> Some of the church books are in Nowotaniec:
              > >> http://semanchuk.com/gen/data/NowotaniecChurchArchive.html
              > >>
              > >> Tokarnia, on the other hand, was mostly Lemko/Greek Catholic. The few
              > >> Roman Catholics in Tokarnia would have been affiliated with the RC
              > >> parish in Bukowsko. For the majority GCs, I think they had their own
              > >> church in Tokarnia. I don't know where those records ended up.
              > >>
              > >> If you could figure out whether Mary was GC or RC, that would give
              > >> you
              > >> a hint as to where she was born.
              > >>
              > >> Hope this helps
              > >> P
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              >
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