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Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2

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  • Philip Semanchuk
    ... Hi Marie, Jurek has already given you a better answer than I can. I don t (yet) know the origin of the maps in question so I can t guess at what the
    Message 1 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
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      On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Marie wrote:

      > Thanks Philip,
      > I am trying to figure out if the Nimec/Niemice family farm is on
      > this map. My grandmother immigrated in eary 1900's but there was
      > one of her cousin's that went back over to Pryzybszow. Their family
      > was relocated to north/central Poland. Is there any way one can
      > tell the difference between a house in the village and a farm?


      Hi Marie,
      Jurek has already given you a better answer than I can. I don't (yet)
      know the origin of the maps in question so I can't guess at what the
      symbols represent other than "this person lived here in some kind of
      dwelling".

      Sorry I can't be of more help
      Philip



      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Philip Semanchuk
      > To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:10 PM
      > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946
      > translation #2
      >
      >
      >
      > On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Marie wrote:
      >
      >> Philip, Debbie,
      >> would the map of Przybyszow show all houses?? My questions is in
      >> regard to farms in the village. Would the house be in a row with
      >> the rest of the houses and their land be in another area?
      >
      > Hi Marie,
      > I don't know. In most of these villages I've visited personally, the
      > houses were clustered together. But if there were a few houses
      > scattered here and there on their own in a field or perhaps in the
      > woods, then by definition they'd be hard to find and I wouldn't have
      > seen them. As Debbie points out, a cadastral map would list all
      > properties (with houses on them or not) since the authorities
      > wouldn't
      > want to miss out on any tax revenue. But the maps we're discussing
      > here are of some indeterminate origin so I can't say how complete
      > they
      > are.
      >
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: Philip Semanchuk
      >> To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
      >> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15 PM
      >> Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946
      >> translation #2
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> On Feb 27, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:
      >>
      >>> Theresa and Philip,
      >>>
      >>> The house numbering could be an issue if any homes in Przybyszo~w
      >>> were
      >>> rebuilt at any point in time. We've seen this situation in Bukowsko
      >>> for example. House were built in numerical order not in sequential
      >>> order on a street.
      >>>
      >>> I think if people are serious about researching their Przybyszo~w
      >>> ancestors they will eventually learn about this situation. Might
      >>> be a
      >>> good idea to add something about the re-numbering, if applicable, to
      >>> the list of residents mentioned below.
      >>
      >> You advice is good but I'm not sure how house numbers got involved in
      >> the conversation. =)
      >>
      >> There's no house numbers at all in the documents under discussion
      >> so I
      >> wasn't planning on putting house numbers in the list. Just a list of
      >> names, Cyrillic and transliterated, that's all.
      >>
      >> P
      >>
      >>> osiuraklaban wrote:
      >>>
      >>>>> Philip
      >>>> The
      >>>> list of residnts of przybyszow 1946 sounds like a good idea. I was
      >>>> confused on the numbering because on original documents if we were
      >>>> to
      >>>> find some they have original numbers. We might confuse people like
      >>>> me
      >>>> even more with house numbers we assign. Might give making a list of
      >>>> residents a shot when I have free time.
      >>>> Theresa
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • fwegerson@comcast.net
      Marie, During a trip to SE Poland in 2007, my Sanok cousin told us that it was common for the house to be separated from the long narrow fields where crops
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
      • 0 Attachment
        Marie,

        During a trip to SE Poland in 2007, my Sanok cousin told us that it was common for the house to be separated from the long narrow fields where crops were grown. The house In Dlugie where my grandfather was born and raised was replaced 15 years ago, but the barn still stands only 30 feet away. I've seen old photos of cattle in the small space between grandpa's old thatch-roofed house and the barn. We learned that my great-grandfather obtained the ownership rights to the home, barn and fields right after WWI, but we're not sure how this happened. Before that, records indicate that from the early 1800's Wegrzyns worked the same plots of land as indentured peasants.

        I found this article which may be of interest to you. http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/P/E/Peasants.htm - 40k

        "Throughout Habsburg-ruled Ukraine the peasantry faced land hunger. The size of the rustical plots had been reduced by the nobility in the decades preceding and during the abolition of serfdom, and because Ukrainian peasants
        customarily divided their land among all children, the average size of
        peasant landholdings declined inexorably. According to official
        statistics, at the beginning of the 20th century almost half the
        peasant holdings in Galicia and over half in Bukovyna were 2 ha or smaller. The land shortage was one of the factors motivating the large-scale emigration of peasants from Transcarpathia, Galicia, and Bukovyna to North America and elsewhere in the decades before the First World War. "

        Frank
        Brentwood, TN



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Philip Semanchuk
        To: bukowsko triangle
        Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:05:50 +0000 (UTC)
        Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2



        On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Marie wrote:
        > Thanks Philip,

        > I am trying to figure out if the Nimec/Niemice family farm is on

        > this map. My grandmother immigrated in eary 1900's but there was

        > one of her cousin's that went back over to Pryzybszow. Their family

        > was relocated to north/central Poland. Is there any way one can

        > tell the difference between a house in the village and a farm?



        Hi Marie,

        Jurek has already given you a better answer than I can. I don't (yet)

        know the origin of the maps in question so I can't guess at what the

        symbols represent other than "this person lived here in some kind of

        dwelling".



        Sorry I can't be of more help

        Philip



        > ----- Original Message -----

        > From: Philip Semanchuk

        > To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com

        > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:10 PM

        > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946

        > translation #2

        >

        >

        >

        > On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Marie wrote:

        >

        >> Philip, Debbie,

        >> would the map of Przybyszow show all houses?? My questions is in

        >> regard to farms in the village. Would the house be in a row with

        >> the rest of the houses and their land be in another area?

        >

        > Hi Marie,

        > I don't know. In most of these villages I've visited personally, the

        > houses were clustered together. But if there were a few houses

        > scattered here and there on their own in a field or perhaps in the

        > woods, then by definition they'd be hard to find and I wouldn't have

        > seen them. As Debbie points out, a cadastral map would list all

        > properties (with houses on them or not) since the authorities

        > wouldn't

        > want to miss out on any tax revenue. But the maps we're discussing

        > here are of some indeterminate origin so I can't say how complete

        > they

        > are.

        >

        >> ----- Original Message -----

        >> From: Philip Semanchuk

        >> To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com

        >> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15 PM

        >> Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946

        >> translation #2

        >>

        >>

        >>

        >> On Feb 27, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:

        >>

        >>> Theresa and Philip,

        >>>

        >>> The house numbering could be an issue if any homes in Przybyszo~w

        >>> were

        >>> rebuilt at any point in time. We've seen this situation in Bukowsko

        >>> for example. House were built in numerical order not in sequential

        >>> order on a street.

        >>>

        >>> I think if people are serious about researching their Przybyszo~w

        >>> ancestors they will eventually learn about this situation. Might

        >>> be a

        >>> good idea to add something about the re-numbering, if applicable, to

        >>> the list of residents mentioned below.

        >>

        >> You advice is good but I'm not sure how house numbers got involved in

        >> the conversation. =)

        >>

        >> There's no house numbers at all in the documents under discussion

        >> so I

        >> wasn't planning on putting house numbers in the list. Just a list of

        >> names, Cyrillic and transliterated, that's all.

        >>

        >> P

        >>

        >>> osiuraklaban wrote:

        >>>

        >>>>> Philip

        >>>> The

        >>>> list of residnts of przybyszow 1946 sounds like a good idea. I was

        >>>> confused on the numbering because on original documents if we were

        >>>> to

        >>>> find some they have original numbers. We might confuse people like

        >>>> me

        >>>> even more with house numbers we assign. Might give making a list of

        >>>> residents a shot when I have free time.

        >>>> Theresa

        >>

        >>

        >>

        >>

        >>

        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >>

        >

        >

        >

        >

        >

        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >



























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Marie
        Thank Jurek, Philip. I just showed the map to my mother. She said her mother talked about the farm being along the river and cattle being across the way from
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
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          Thank Jurek, Philip. I just showed the map to my mother. She said her
          mother talked about the farm being along the river and cattle being across
          the way from her. She spoke of growing flax and taking it to be processed,
          she said her job was taking care of the family's geese. It's great to have
          a visual to try to imagine my grandmother in her village.

          Marie
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <jcw@...>
          To: <bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 11:55 AM
          Subject: Re: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946
          translation #2


          Marie,

          In this part of the Poland and in the year bevore 1946, for sure, the
          farmhouse(it was one building) consited dwelling part and the part for
          livestock. Generally such farmhouse was placed on very narrow and long strip
          of the ground. Quite oft to farm belonged seperated small lots in different
          parts of the village.

          Jurek

          bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com napisa³(a):

          Thanks Philip,
          I am trying to figure out if the Nimec/Niemice family farm is on this
          map. My grandmother immigrated in eary 1900's but there was one of her
          cousin's that went back over to Pryzybszow. Their family was relocated
          to north/central Poland. Is there any way one can tell the difference
          between a house in the village and a farm?
          Marie

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Philip Semanchuk
          To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:10 PM
          Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946
          translation #2

          On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Marie wrote:

          > Philip, Debbie,
          > would the map of Przybyszow show all houses?? My questions is in
          > regard to farms in the village. Would the house be in a row with
          > the rest of the houses and their land be in another area?

          Hi Marie,
          I don't know. In most of these villages I've visited personally, the
          houses were clustered together. But if there were a few houses
          scattered here and there on their own in a field or perhaps in the
          woods, then by definition they'd be hard to find and I wouldn't have
          seen them. As Debbie points out, a cadastral map would list all
          properties (with houses on them or not) since the authorities wouldn't
          want to miss out on any tax revenue. But the maps we're discussing
          here are of some indeterminate origin so I can't say how complete they
          are.

          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Philip Semanchuk
          > To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15 PM
          > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946
          > translation #2
          >
          >
          >
          > On Feb 27, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:
          >
          >> Theresa and Philip,
          >>
          >> The house numbering could be an issue if any homes in Przybyszo~w
          >> were
          >> rebuilt at any point in time. We've seen this situation in Bukowsko
          >> for example. House were built in numerical order not in sequential
          >> order on a street.
          >>
          >> I think if people are serious about researching their Przybyszo~w
          >> ancestors they will eventually learn about this situation. Might be a
          >> good idea to add something about the re-numbering, if applicable, to
          >> the list of residents mentioned below.
          >
          > You advice is good but I'm not sure how house numbers got involved in
          > the conversation. =)
          >
          > There's no house numbers at all in the documents under discussion
          > so I
          > wasn't planning on putting house numbers in the list. Just a list of
          > names, Cyrillic and transliterated, that's all.
          >
          > P
          >
          >> osiuraklaban wrote:
          >>
          >>>> Philip
          >>> The
          >>> list of residnts of przybyszow 1946 sounds like a good idea. I was
          >>> confused on the numbering because on original documents if we were
          >>> to
          >>> find some they have original numbers. We might confuse people like
          >>> me
          >>> even more with house numbers we assign. Might give making a list of
          >>> residents a shot when I have free time.
          >>> Theresa
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Marie
          Frank, Thanks for the information. I try to read as much as possible so I can put together how their lives must have been. Both my maternal grandparents were
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Frank,

            Thanks for the information. I try to read as much as possible so I can put together how their lives must have been. Both my maternal grandparents were immigrants.
            and spoke only broken English. Grandma from Przybyszow and Grandpap from what is currently Westen Ukraine near Huszt along the Tysa river. So, we really couldn't communicate that well. The information I get are bits and pieces from my mother and aunts and it seems that they all got a different piece of the puzzle. What's really strange is not one of them really understand where their parents were from. Some have a general idea.

            Marie
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: fwegerson@...
            To: bukowsko triangle
            Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:29 PM
            Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2


            Marie,

            During a trip to SE Poland in 2007, my Sanok cousin told us that it was common for the house to be separated from the long narrow fields where crops were grown. The house In Dlugie where my grandfather was born and raised was replaced 15 years ago, but the barn still stands only 30 feet away. I've seen old photos of cattle in the small space between grandpa's old thatch-roofed house and the barn. We learned that my great-grandfather obtained the ownership rights to the home, barn and fields right after WWI, but we're not sure how this happened. Before that, records indicate that from the early 1800's Wegrzyns worked the same plots of land as indentured peasants.

            I found this article which may be of interest to you. http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/P/E/Peasants.htm - 40k

            "Throughout Habsburg-ruled Ukraine the peasantry faced land hunger. The size of the rustical plots had been reduced by the nobility in the decades preceding and during the abolition of serfdom, and because Ukrainian peasants
            customarily divided their land among all children, the average size of
            peasant landholdings declined inexorably. According to official
            statistics, at the beginning of the 20th century almost half the
            peasant holdings in Galicia and over half in Bukovyna were 2 ha or smaller. The land shortage was one of the factors motivating the large-scale emigration of peasants from Transcarpathia, Galicia, and Bukovyna to North America and elsewhere in the decades before the First World War. "

            Frank
            Brentwood, TN

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Philip Semanchuk
            To: bukowsko triangle
            Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:05:50 +0000 (UTC)
            Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2

            On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Marie wrote:
            > Thanks Philip,

            > I am trying to figure out if the Nimec/Niemice family farm is on

            > this map. My grandmother immigrated in eary 1900's but there was

            > one of her cousin's that went back over to Pryzybszow. Their family

            > was relocated to north/central Poland. Is there any way one can

            > tell the difference between a house in the village and a farm?

            Hi Marie,

            Jurek has already given you a better answer than I can. I don't (yet)

            know the origin of the maps in question so I can't guess at what the

            symbols represent other than "this person lived here in some kind of

            dwelling".

            Sorry I can't be of more help

            Philip

            > ----- Original Message -----

            > From: Philip Semanchuk

            > To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com

            > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:10 PM

            > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946

            > translation #2

            >

            >

            >

            > On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Marie wrote:

            >

            >> Philip, Debbie,

            >> would the map of Przybyszow show all houses?? My questions is in

            >> regard to farms in the village. Would the house be in a row with

            >> the rest of the houses and their land be in another area?

            >

            > Hi Marie,

            > I don't know. In most of these villages I've visited personally, the

            > houses were clustered together. But if there were a few houses

            > scattered here and there on their own in a field or perhaps in the

            > woods, then by definition they'd be hard to find and I wouldn't have

            > seen them. As Debbie points out, a cadastral map would list all

            > properties (with houses on them or not) since the authorities

            > wouldn't

            > want to miss out on any tax revenue. But the maps we're discussing

            > here are of some indeterminate origin so I can't say how complete

            > they

            > are.

            >

            >> ----- Original Message -----

            >> From: Philip Semanchuk

            >> To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com

            >> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15 PM

            >> Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946

            >> translation #2

            >>

            >>

            >>

            >> On Feb 27, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:

            >>

            >>> Theresa and Philip,

            >>>

            >>> The house numbering could be an issue if any homes in Przybyszo~w

            >>> were

            >>> rebuilt at any point in time. We've seen this situation in Bukowsko

            >>> for example. House were built in numerical order not in sequential

            >>> order on a street.

            >>>

            >>> I think if people are serious about researching their Przybyszo~w

            >>> ancestors they will eventually learn about this situation. Might

            >>> be a

            >>> good idea to add something about the re-numbering, if applicable, to

            >>> the list of residents mentioned below.

            >>

            >> You advice is good but I'm not sure how house numbers got involved in

            >> the conversation. =)

            >>

            >> There's no house numbers at all in the documents under discussion

            >> so I

            >> wasn't planning on putting house numbers in the list. Just a list of

            >> names, Cyrillic and transliterated, that's all.

            >>

            >> P

            >>

            >>> osiuraklaban wrote:

            >>>

            >>>>> Philip

            >>>> The

            >>>> list of residnts of przybyszow 1946 sounds like a good idea. I was

            >>>> confused on the numbering because on original documents if we were

            >>>> to

            >>>> find some they have original numbers. We might confuse people like

            >>>> me

            >>>> even more with house numbers we assign. Might give making a list of

            >>>> residents a shot when I have free time.

            >>>> Theresa

            >>

            >>

            >>

            >>

            >>

            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >>

            >

            >

            >

            >

            >

            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Philip Semanchuk
            ... My *parents* didn t really understand where their parents were from. My Dad at least knew he was Polish and Ukrainian (close enough!); Mom thought she
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              On Mar 8, 2009, at 2:46 PM, Marie wrote:

              > Both my maternal grandparents were immigrants.
              > and spoke only broken English. Grandma from Przybyszow and Grandpap
              > from what is currently Westen Ukraine near Huszt along the Tysa
              > river. So, we really couldn't communicate that well. The
              > information I get are bits and pieces from my mother and aunts and
              > it seems that they all got a different piece of the puzzle. What's
              > really strange is not one of them really understand where their
              > parents were from. Some have a general idea.


              My *parents* didn't really understand where their parents were from.
              My Dad at least knew he was Polish and "Ukrainian" (close enough!);
              Mom thought she was Austrian and Polish. But both of her parents spoke
              German and were born not far south of L'viv.

              The research I've done has been eye-opening to my Mom and her sister,
              as well as my Dad's sisters.

              bye
              P
            • Marie
              Philip, I know what you mean. I gave my mother information slowly at first so she could take it all in. At one point my mother had a revelation.....she said
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Philip,

                I know what you mean. I gave my mother information slowly at first so she could take it all in. At one point my mother had a revelation.....she said it all makes
                sense to me Marie, now I know why my parents and my In-laws didn't want your dad and I to marry. Her parents family were Greek Catholic and her in-law's family
                was Roman Catholic. My paternal grandfather never did come to the church but came to the reception..........

                Marie

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Philip Semanchuk
                To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 3:36 PM
                Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2



                On Mar 8, 2009, at 2:46 PM, Marie wrote:

                > Both my maternal grandparents were immigrants.
                > and spoke only broken English. Grandma from Przybyszow and Grandpap
                > from what is currently Westen Ukraine near Huszt along the Tysa
                > river. So, we really couldn't communicate that well. The
                > information I get are bits and pieces from my mother and aunts and
                > it seems that they all got a different piece of the puzzle. What's
                > really strange is not one of them really understand where their
                > parents were from. Some have a general idea.

                My *parents* didn't really understand where their parents were from.
                My Dad at least knew he was Polish and "Ukrainian" (close enough!);
                Mom thought she was Austrian and Polish. But both of her parents spoke
                German and were born not far south of L'viv.

                The research I've done has been eye-opening to my Mom and her sister,
                as well as my Dad's sisters.

                bye
                P





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Marie
                Frank, Yes, I wonder the same thing. I vr seen copies of cadastral records showing Nimec/Niemice living in the Przybyszow from 1787. How do you go from
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Frank,

                  Yes, I wonder the same thing. I'vr seen copies of cadastral records showing Nimec/Niemice living in the Przybyszow from 1787. How do you go from peasants to land owner? I have read there was a proclamation that freed the peasants in I believe 1848?? I just know that my grandmother's paternal family had a farm in Przybyszow and maternal family had a mill in Czystogarb (Czystohorb). Hopefully with time I'll find out the how they managed that!

                  Marie

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: fwegerson@...
                  To: bukowsko triangle
                  Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:29 PM
                  Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2


                  Marie,

                  During a trip to SE Poland in 2007, my Sanok cousin told us that it was common for the house to be separated from the long narrow fields where crops were grown. The house In Dlugie where my grandfather was born and raised was replaced 15 years ago, but the barn still stands only 30 feet away. I've seen old photos of cattle in the small space between grandpa's old thatch-roofed house and the barn. We learned that my great-grandfather obtained the ownership rights to the home, barn and fields right after WWI, but we're not sure how this happened. Before that, records indicate that from the early 1800's Wegrzyns worked the same plots of land as indentured peasants.

                  I found this article which may be of interest to you. http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/P/E/Peasants.htm - 40k

                  "Throughout Habsburg-ruled Ukraine the peasantry faced land hunger. The size of the rustical plots had been reduced by the nobility in the decades preceding and during the abolition of serfdom, and because Ukrainian peasants
                  customarily divided their land among all children, the average size of
                  peasant landholdings declined inexorably. According to official
                  statistics, at the beginning of the 20th century almost half the
                  peasant holdings in Galicia and over half in Bukovyna were 2 ha or smaller. The land shortage was one of the factors motivating the large-scale emigration of peasants from Transcarpathia, Galicia, and Bukovyna to North America and elsewhere in the decades before the First World War. "

                  Frank
                  Brentwood, TN

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Philip Semanchuk
                  To: bukowsko triangle
                  Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:05:50 +0000 (UTC)
                  Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2

                  On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Marie wrote:
                  > Thanks Philip,

                  > I am trying to figure out if the Nimec/Niemice family farm is on

                  > this map. My grandmother immigrated in eary 1900's but there was

                  > one of her cousin's that went back over to Pryzybszow. Their family

                  > was relocated to north/central Poland. Is there any way one can

                  > tell the difference between a house in the village and a farm?

                  Hi Marie,

                  Jurek has already given you a better answer than I can. I don't (yet)

                  know the origin of the maps in question so I can't guess at what the

                  symbols represent other than "this person lived here in some kind of

                  dwelling".

                  Sorry I can't be of more help

                  Philip

                  > ----- Original Message -----

                  > From: Philip Semanchuk

                  > To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com

                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:10 PM

                  > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946

                  > translation #2

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Marie wrote:

                  >

                  >> Philip, Debbie,

                  >> would the map of Przybyszow show all houses?? My questions is in

                  >> regard to farms in the village. Would the house be in a row with

                  >> the rest of the houses and their land be in another area?

                  >

                  > Hi Marie,

                  > I don't know. In most of these villages I've visited personally, the

                  > houses were clustered together. But if there were a few houses

                  > scattered here and there on their own in a field or perhaps in the

                  > woods, then by definition they'd be hard to find and I wouldn't have

                  > seen them. As Debbie points out, a cadastral map would list all

                  > properties (with houses on them or not) since the authorities

                  > wouldn't

                  > want to miss out on any tax revenue. But the maps we're discussing

                  > here are of some indeterminate origin so I can't say how complete

                  > they

                  > are.

                  >

                  >> ----- Original Message -----

                  >> From: Philip Semanchuk

                  >> To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com

                  >> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15 PM

                  >> Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946

                  >> translation #2

                  >>

                  >>

                  >>

                  >> On Feb 27, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:

                  >>

                  >>> Theresa and Philip,

                  >>>

                  >>> The house numbering could be an issue if any homes in Przybyszo~w

                  >>> were

                  >>> rebuilt at any point in time. We've seen this situation in Bukowsko

                  >>> for example. House were built in numerical order not in sequential

                  >>> order on a street.

                  >>>

                  >>> I think if people are serious about researching their Przybyszo~w

                  >>> ancestors they will eventually learn about this situation. Might

                  >>> be a

                  >>> good idea to add something about the re-numbering, if applicable, to

                  >>> the list of residents mentioned below.

                  >>

                  >> You advice is good but I'm not sure how house numbers got involved in

                  >> the conversation. =)

                  >>

                  >> There's no house numbers at all in the documents under discussion

                  >> so I

                  >> wasn't planning on putting house numbers in the list. Just a list of

                  >> names, Cyrillic and transliterated, that's all.

                  >>

                  >> P

                  >>

                  >>> osiuraklaban wrote:

                  >>>

                  >>>>> Philip

                  >>>> The

                  >>>> list of residnts of przybyszow 1946 sounds like a good idea. I was

                  >>>> confused on the numbering because on original documents if we were

                  >>>> to

                  >>>> find some they have original numbers. We might confuse people like

                  >>>> me

                  >>>> even more with house numbers we assign. Might give making a list of

                  >>>> residents a shot when I have free time.

                  >>>> Theresa

                  >>

                  >>

                  >>

                  >>

                  >>

                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  >>

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  >

                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Philip Semanchuk
                  ... I wondered about that too. My father s father was a Lemko from Wolica; he married a Pole from Nagorzany. He died in an accident in 1942, otherwise I can
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 8, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    On Mar 8, 2009, at 7:18 PM, Marie wrote:

                    > Philip,
                    >
                    > I know what you mean. I gave my mother information slowly at first
                    > so she could take it all in. At one point my mother had a
                    > revelation.....she said it all makes
                    > sense to me Marie, now I know why my parents and my In-laws didn't
                    > want your dad and I to marry. Her parents family were Greek
                    > Catholic and her in-law's family
                    > was Roman Catholic. My paternal grandfather never did come to the
                    > church but came to the reception..........

                    I wondered about that too. My father's father was a Lemko from Wolica;
                    he married a Pole from Nagorzany. He died in an accident in 1942,
                    otherwise I can imagine conversations at home might have been pretty
                    awkward in 1946 - 47.

                    "Hey, I just got a letter from my uncle -- your brother burned his
                    house down!"
                    "What a coincidence, I just got a letter from my uncle saying the same!"


                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Philip Semanchuk
                    > To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 3:36 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946
                    > translation #2
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Mar 8, 2009, at 2:46 PM, Marie wrote:
                    >
                    >> Both my maternal grandparents were immigrants.
                    >> and spoke only broken English. Grandma from Przybyszow and Grandpap
                    >> from what is currently Westen Ukraine near Huszt along the Tysa
                    >> river. So, we really couldn't communicate that well. The
                    >> information I get are bits and pieces from my mother and aunts and
                    >> it seems that they all got a different piece of the puzzle. What's
                    >> really strange is not one of them really understand where their
                    >> parents were from. Some have a general idea.
                    >
                    > My *parents* didn't really understand where their parents were from.
                    > My Dad at least knew he was Polish and "Ukrainian" (close enough!);
                    > Mom thought she was Austrian and Polish. But both of her parents
                    > spoke
                    > German and were born not far south of L'viv.
                    >
                    > The research I've done has been eye-opening to my Mom and her sister,
                    > as well as my Dad's sisters.
                    >
                    > bye
                    > P
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • peekaboobrat
                    I m interested in the Prybyszow area because it is(35 mi) south-west of the regional capital Kielce. I have relatives who are actual Przybylski. Kielce
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 10, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I'm interested in the Prybyszow area because it is(35 mi) south-west of the regional capital Kielce.
                      I have relatives who are actual Przybylski.

                      Kielce residents in & before "1910" were Wielgus/Wielgorz/Wielgos. Stanley had married a Zofia BEZYVICKI-from Tarnow? BE_ZYSKI/BELZICKA/ BELZICKI/ BELZINKA/ BELZYCKA/ BELZYCKI/ BELZYCZKA/ BELZYCZKI/ BELZYKA SIC/ BELZYNSKA/ BELZYNSKI/ or BELZYSKA;

                      They probably married in or abt 1880 because the first child was born circa 1900 [would have to look at my tree]. Thyeemigarted from Kielce to Bayonne NJ in 1909 & 1910.
                      I would like a website of the Cadestral History and some surnames of people's ancestry. 35 miles seems like a long distance to travel, but I'm sure some horse and carts were used before cars. Men worked where they could and surely searched for a wife.

                      Thank you for any input.
                      Joan Wielgus
                      --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, "Marie" <meh58@...> wrote:
                      > Frank,
                      >
                      > Yes, I wonder the same thing. I'vr seen copies of cadastral records showing Nimec/Niemice living in the Przybyszow from 1787. How do you go from peasants to land owner? I have read there was a proclamation that freed the peasants in I believe 1848?? I just know that my grandmother's paternal family had a farm in Przybyszow and maternal family had a mill in Czystogarb (Czystohorb). Hopefully with time I'll find out the how they managed that!
                      >
                      > Marie
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: fwegerson@...
                      > To: bukowsko triangle
                      > Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:29 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2
                      > Marie,

                      > During a trip to SE Poland in 2007, my Sanok cousin told us that it was common for the house to be separated from the long narrow fields where crops were grown. The house In Dlugie where my grandfather was born and raised was replaced 15 years ago, but the barn still stands only 30 feet away. I've seen old photos of cattle in the small space between grandpa's old thatch-roofed house and the barn. We learned that my great-grandfather obtained the ownership rights to the home, barn and fields right after WWI, but we're not sure how this happened. Before that, records indicate that from the early 1800's Wegrzyns worked the same plots of land as indentured peasants.

                      > I found this article which may be of interest to you. http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/P/E/Peasants.htm - 40k

                      "Throughout Habsburg-ruled Ukraine the peasantry faced land hunger. The size of the rustical plots had been reduced by the nobility in the decades preceding and during the abolition of serfdom, and because Ukrainian peasants
                      customarily divided their land among all children, the average size of peasant landholdings declined inexorably. According to official
                      statistics, at the beginning of the 20th century almost half the
                      peasant holdings in Galicia and over half in Bukovyna were 2 ha or smaller. The land shortage was one of the factors motivating the large-scale emigration of peasants from Transcarpathia, Galicia, and Bukovyna to North America and elsewhere in the decades before the First World War. "
                      Frank Brentwood, TN
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Philip Semanchuk
                      > To: bukowsko triangle
                      > Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:05:50 +0000 (UTC)
                      > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2
                      >
                      > On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Marie wrote:
                      > > Thanks Philip,
                      I am trying to figure out if the Nimec/Niemice family farm is on this map. My grandmother immigrated in eary 1900's but there was one of her cousin's that went back over to Pryzybszow. Their family was relocated to north/central Poland. Is there any way one can
                      tell the difference between a house in the village and a farm?

                      > Hi Marie,
                      >> Jurek has already given you a better answer than I can. I don't (yet) know the origin of the maps in question so I can't guess at what the symbols represent other than "this person lived here in some kind of dwelling". Sorry I can't be of more help
                      >
                      > Philip
                      >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      >
                      > > From: Philip Semanchuk
                      >
                      > > To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:10 PM
                      >
                      > > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946
                      > > translation #2
                      >
                      > > On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Marie wrote:
                      >
                      > >> Philip, Debbie,
                      > >> would the map of Przybyszow show all houses?? My questions is in regard to farms in the village. Would the house be in a row with
                      >
                      > >> the rest of the houses and their land be in another area?
                      > > Hi Marie> > I don't know. In most of these villages I've visited personally, the
                      >
                      > > houses were clustered together. But if there were a few houses
                      >
                      > > scattered here and there on their own in a field or perhaps in the woods, then by definition they'd be hard to find and I wouldn't have seen them. As Debbie points out, a cadastral map would list all
                      > properties (with houses on them or not) since the authorities
                      > wouldn't want to miss out on any tax revenue. But the maps we're discussing here are of some indeterminate origin so I can't say how complete theyare.
                      >riginal Message -----
                      >
                      > >> From: Philip Semanchuk
                      >
                      > >> To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      > >> Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 12:15 PM
                      >
                      > >> Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 ranslation #2 On Feb 27, 2009, at 12:07 PM, Debbie Greenlee wro
                      > Theresa and Philip,
                      The house numbering could be an issue if any homes in Przybyszo~w
                      were rebuilt at any point in time. We've seen this situation in Bukowsko for example. House were built in numerical order not in sequential order on a street.
                      I think if people are serious about researching their Przybyszo~w
                      ancestors they will eventually learn about this situation.
                    • andrzej.mandat
                      ... Sorry, Joan Przybyszów is now a part of Bukowsko (near Sanok). It s more the 150 mi from Kielce. Andrzej
                      Message 10 of 24 , Mar 10, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, "peekaboobrat" <peekaboobrat@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I'm interested in the Prybyszow area because it is(35 mi) south-west of the regional capital Kielce.
                        > I have relatives who are actual Przybylski.
                        >
                        > Kielce residents in & before "1910" were Wielgus/Wielgorz/Wielgos. Stanley had married a Zofia BEZYVICKI-from Tarnow? BE_ZYSKI/BELZICKA/ BELZICKI/ BELZINKA/ BELZYCKA/ BELZYCKI/ BELZYCZKA/ BELZYCZKI/ BELZYKA SIC/ BELZYNSKA/ BELZYNSKI/ or BELZYSKA;
                        >
                        > They probably married in or abt 1880 because the first child was born circa 1900 [would have to look at my tree]. Thyeemigarted from Kielce to Bayonne NJ in 1909 & 1910.
                        > I would like a website of the Cadestral History and some surnames of people's ancestry. 35 miles seems like a long distance to travel, but I'm sure some horse and carts were used before cars. Men worked where they could and surely searched for a wife.
                        >
                        > Thank you for any input.
                        > Joan Wielgus

                        Sorry, Joan
                        Przybyszów is now a part of Bukowsko (near Sanok).
                        It's more the 150 mi from Kielce.

                        Andrzej
                      • fwegerson@comcast.net
                        ... From: Marie Subj: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2 Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 6:47 pm Size: 3K
                        Message 11 of 24 , Mar 11, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          -----Original Message-----

                          From: "Marie" <meh58@...>
                          Subj: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2
                          Date: Sun Mar 8, 2009 6:47 pm
                          Size: 3K
                          To: <bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com>

                          Frank,

                          Yes, I wonder the same thing. I'vr seen copies of cadastral records showing Nimec/Niemice living in the Przybyszow from 1787. How do you go from peasants to land owner? I have read there was a proclamation that freed the peasants in I believe 1848?? I just know that my grandmother's paternal family had a farm in Przybyszow and maternal family had a mill in Czystogarb (Czystohorb). Hopefully with time I'll find out the how they managed that!

                          Marie

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: fwegerson@...
                          To: bukowsko triangle
                          Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:29 PM
                          Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2


                          Marie,

                          During a trip to SE Poland in 2007, my Sanok cousin told us that it was common for the house to be separated from the long narrow fields where crops were grown. The house In Dlugie where my grandfather was born and raised was replaced 15 years ago, but the barn still stands only 30 feet away. I've seen old photos of cattle in the small space between grandpa's old thatch-roofed house and the barn. We learned that my great-grandfather obtained the ownership rights to the home, barn and fields right after WWI, but we're not sure how this happened. Before that, records indicate that from the early 1800's Wegrzyns worked the same plots of land as indentured peasants.

                          I found this article which may be of interest to you. http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/P/E/Peasants.htm - 40k

                          "Throughout Habsburg-ruled Ukraine the peasantry faced land hunger. The size of the rustical plots had been reduced by the nobility in the decades preceding and during the abolition of serfdom, and because Ukrainian peasants
                          customarily divided their land among all children, the average size of
                          peasant landholdings declined inexorably. According to official
                          statistics, at the beginning of the 20th century almost half the
                          peasant holdings in Galicia and over half in Bukovyna were 2 ha or smaller. The land shortage was one of the factors motivating the large-scale emigration of peasants from Transcarpathia, Galicia, and Bukovyna to North America and elsewhere in the decades before the First World War. "

                          Frank
                          Brentwood, TN

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Philip Semanchuk
                          To: bukowsko triangle
                          Sent: Sun, 8 Mar 2009 16:05:50 +0000 (UTC)
                          Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946 translation #2

                          On Mar 8, 2009, at 11:04 AM, Marie wrote:
                          > Thanks Philip,

                          > I am trying to figure out if the Nimec/Niemice family farm is on

                          > this map. My grandmother immigrated in eary 1900's but there was

                          > one of her cousin's that went back over to Pryzybszow. Their family

                          > was relocated to north/central Poland. Is there any way one can

                          > tell the difference between a house in the village and a farm?

                          Hi Marie,

                          Jurek has already given you a better answer than I can. I don't (yet)

                          know the origin of the maps in question so I can't guess at what the

                          symbols represent other than "this person lived here in some kind of

                          dwelling".

                          Sorry I can't be of more help

                          Philip

                          > ----- Original Message -----

                          > From: Philip Semanchuk

                          > To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com

                          > Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 10:10 PM

                          > Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Prybyszow residents in 1946

                          > translation #2

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > On Mar 2, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Marie wrote:

                          --- message truncated ---
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