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Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Gemeindelexikon question

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  • Roman
    Ann, Another scan of Polish Internet sites for parishes in Rzepedź (Debbie, a rare case of a dash, not a dot, over the z) searching for parafia rzepedz
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 8, 2007
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      Ann,

      Another scan of Polish Internet sites for parishes in Rzepedź (Debbie, a
      rare case of a dash, not a dot, over the z) searching for "parafia
      rzepedz" finds a number of hits. Some of these discuss "Św Mikołaja
      Biskupa" and "Mikołaj" translates to "Nicholas", not "Noel".

      Go to http://www.rzepedz.pl/ and choose "Parafie" in the Menu list to
      see a nice picture of the cerkiew.

      Roman

      Ann Poslosky wrote:
      > Roman & Debbie,
      >
      > You were both so helpful. Already printed out the Sl~ownik
      Geograficzny, thank you, Roman. Who would think the Gemeindelexikon was
      wrong? If only research was simple!!! In one text I found, it gave the
      name of the cerkiew at St. Noel the Bishop; perhaps that was the
      Orthodox, yet that seems wierd, too, because St. Nicholas is more
      Orthodox. Anyway, thank you Roman and Debbie.
      >
      > Ann
      >
    • Debbie Greenlee
      Ann, Once you click on Parafia (Roman s message), scroll down, Under the words Wice~j zdje~c~ is a link to more photos of the cerkiew. Debbie
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 8, 2007
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        Ann,

        Once you click on Parafia (Roman's message), scroll down,
        Under the words "Wice~j zdje~c~" is a link to more photos of the cerkiew.

        Debbie

        Roman wrote:
        > Ann,
        >
        > Another scan of Polish Internet sites for parishes in Rzepedź (Debbie, a
        > rare case of a dash, not a dot, over the z) searching for "parafia
        > rzepedz" finds a number of hits. Some of these discuss "Św Mikołaja
        > Biskupa" and "Mikołaj" translates to "Nicholas", not "Noel".
        >
        > Go to http://www.rzepedz.pl/ and choose "Parafie" in the Menu list to
        > see a nice picture of the cerkiew.
        >
        > Roman
        >
        > Ann Poslosky wrote:
        >> Roman & Debbie,
        >>
        >> You were both so helpful. Already printed out the Sl~ownik
        > Geograficzny, thank you, Roman. Who would think the Gemeindelexikon was
        > wrong? If only research was simple!!! In one text I found, it gave the
        > name of the cerkiew at St. Noel the Bishop; perhaps that was the
        > Orthodox, yet that seems wierd, too, because St. Nicholas is more
        > Orthodox. Anyway, thank you Roman and Debbie.
        >>
        >> Ann
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • vchromoho
        ... Geograficzny, thank you, Roman. Who would think the Gemeindelexikon was wrong? If only research was simple!!! In one text I found, it gave the name
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 8, 2007
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          --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Ann Poslosky
          <aposlosky@...> wrote:
          >
          > Roman & Debbie,
          >
          > You were both so helpful. Already printed out the Sl~ownik
          Geograficzny, thank you, Roman. Who would think the
          Gemeindelexikon was wrong? If only research was simple!!! In one
          text I found, it gave the name of the cerkiew at St. Noel the
          Bishop; perhaps that was the Orthodox, yet that seems wierd, too,
          because St. Nicholas is more Orthodox. Anyway, thank you Roman and
          Debbie.
          >
          > Ann

          Ann, there were no Orthodox churches in all of Galicia, much less in
          the Lemko Region, in 1823. The last Orthodox church in the Lemko
          Region (part of the Eparchy of Peremyshl) united with Rome circa
          1692. After that time, there were no Orthodox churches in the Lemko
          Region until Father (now Saint) Maksym Sandovych returned to his
          native village (Zdynia)/district (Gorlice) and began missionary work
          in 1911-12.
        • Debbie Greenlee
          vchromoho: We understand that you are factually correct about the term, Orthodox but given the level of complexity of terminology surrounding the Orthodox and
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 8, 2007
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            vchromoho:

            We understand that you are factually correct about the term, Orthodox
            but given the level of complexity of terminology surrounding the
            Orthodox and Eastern Rite churches it should not be surprising that
            non-experts or people not particularly interested in those churches
            occasionally use terms which are not precisely correct but which
            convey the intended meaning to the intended audience.

            I think when we saw the term "Orthodox" we read, Greek Catholic.

            Thank you for pointing out this fine, but important, distinction.

            Debbie


            vchromoho wrote:
            > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Ann Poslosky
            > <aposlosky@...> wrote:
            >> Roman & Debbie,
            >>
            >> You were both so helpful. Already printed out the Sl~ownik
            > Geograficzny, thank you, Roman. Who would think the
            > Gemeindelexikon was wrong? If only research was simple!!! In one
            > text I found, it gave the name of the cerkiew at St. Noel the
            > Bishop; perhaps that was the Orthodox, yet that seems wierd, too,
            > because St. Nicholas is more Orthodox. Anyway, thank you Roman and
            > Debbie.
            >>
            >> Ann
            >
            > Ann, there were no Orthodox churches in all of Galicia, much less in
            > the Lemko Region, in 1823. The last Orthodox church in the Lemko
            > Region (part of the Eparchy of Peremyshl) united with Rome circa
            > 1692. After that time, there were no Orthodox churches in the Lemko
            > Region until Father (now Saint) Maksym Sandovych returned to his
            > native village (Zdynia)/district (Gorlice) and began missionary work
            > in 1911-12.
          • Ann Poslosky
            Whow!!! Thank you Richard. That really helps clarify the situation in my mind. There is a lot of wrong information attached to photos that were taken of
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 8, 2007
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              Whow!!! Thank you Richard. That really helps clarify the situation in my mind. There is a lot of "wrong" information attached to photos that were taken of that cerkiew....some called it Orthodox honestly and some called it Greek Catholic. A step at a time, I'm getting a much better understanding of this question. Thanks to everyone who contributed to this.

              Ann

              vchromoho <rcuster@...> wrote:
              --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Ann Poslosky
              <aposlosky@...> wrote:
              >
              > Roman & Debbie,
              >
              > You were both so helpful. Already printed out the Sl~ownik
              Geograficzny, thank you, Roman. Who would think the
              Gemeindelexikon was wrong? If only research was simple!!! In one
              text I found, it gave the name of the cerkiew at St. Noel the
              Bishop; perhaps that was the Orthodox, yet that seems wierd, too,
              because St. Nicholas is more Orthodox. Anyway, thank you Roman and
              Debbie.
              >
              > Ann

              Ann, there were no Orthodox churches in all of Galicia, much less in
              the Lemko Region, in 1823. The last Orthodox church in the Lemko
              Region (part of the Eparchy of Peremyshl) united with Rome circa
              1692. After that time, there were no Orthodox churches in the Lemko
              Region until Father (now Saint) Maksym Sandovych returned to his
              native village (Zdynia)/district (Gorlice) and began missionary work
              in 1911-12.





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            • vchromoho
              ... Orthodox ... that ... churches ... Hello Debbie, The Orthodox Church is also Eastern Rite . Most likely the source material Ann used about the village
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 9, 2007
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                --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Greenlee
                <daveg@...> wrote:
                >
                > vchromoho:
                >
                > We understand that you are factually correct about the term,
                Orthodox
                > but given the level of complexity of terminology surrounding the
                > Orthodox and Eastern Rite churches it should not be surprising
                that
                > non-experts or people not particularly interested in those
                churches
                > occasionally use terms which are not precisely correct but which
                > convey the intended meaning to the intended audience.
                >
                > I think when we saw the term "Orthodox" we read, Greek Catholic.
                >
                > Thank you for pointing out this fine, but important, distinction.
                >
                > Debbie

                Hello Debbie,

                The Orthodox Church is also "Eastern Rite".

                Most likely the source material Ann used about the village Rzepedz
                was not correctly translated into English; I suspect the original
                used the term "cerkiew greckokatolicka" and the translator, not
                knowing the difference, translated it as "Orthodox".

                Regarding the 1920s and later, when the Orthodox Church began to be
                reestablished in the Lemko Region, the distinction can be very
                important if one is talking in terms of genealogy and church
                records, which we are. In some villages one may have to deal with
                records of both churches to cover the 1920s-1940s. On the other
                hand, if one is under the mistaken impression (as are many, many
                American Rusyns/Lemkos of Orthodox Christian confession) that in the
                1800s they need to find Orthodox church records because their
                parents and grandparents were Orthodox in the U.S., they may never
                find the records they think they need because there simply were no
                Orthodox churches to have kept records.

                Genealogists have to learn & understand many different new and
                perhaps difficult or confusing concepts. I don't see why the
                difference between the Orthodox and Greek/Byzantine/Eastern Catholic
                churches is some unusually higher degree of complexity, except that
                our American culture, in the goal of avoiding "impolite"
                discussions, has relegated the even rudimentary understanding of
                religious beliefs, practice, and history to something only for
                clergy or specialists.

                Rich Custer (vchromoho)
              • elstonwe@att.net
                I think an even more confusing occurrence met our ancestors when they came to the US and that was finding a church that they could go to .My grandfather
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 9, 2007
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                  I think an even more confusing occurrence met our ancestors when they came to the US and that was "finding a church that they could go to".My grandfather settled in Hazleton PA and in that town were Ukrainian Byzantine Greek Catholic churches which the family joined. My father grew up being told he was Ukrainian. Yet, when he visited Lvov in 1933, he noted in his journal that he could not understand the funny language. My grandfather's sister's family settled in Salem, MA and the family attended the Russian Orthodox church and the family grew up believing they were of Russian ethnicity. The family ethnicity is Lemko Rusyn from a village now in southern Poland. My observation is that my family in Central Europe know their ethnicity and many have died for it. Descendants in the US are confused about it.

                  Gloria

                  -------------- Original message ----------------------
                  From: "vchromoho" <rcuster@...>
                  >
                  > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Greenlee
                  > <daveg@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > vchromoho:
                  > >
                  > > We understand that you are factually correct about the term,
                  > Orthodox
                  > > but given the level of complexity of terminology surrounding the
                  > > Orthodox and Eastern Rite churches it should not be surprising
                  > that
                  > > non-experts or people not particularly interested in those
                  > churches
                  > > occasionally use terms which are not precisely correct but which
                  > > convey the intended meaning to the intended audience.
                  > >
                  > > I think when we saw the term "Orthodox" we read, Greek Catholic.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for pointing out this fine, but important, distinction.
                  > >
                  > > Debbie
                  >
                  > Hello Debbie,
                  >
                  > The Orthodox Church is also "Eastern Rite".
                  >
                  > Most likely the source material Ann used about the village Rzepedz
                  > was not correctly translated into English; I suspect the original
                  > used the term "cerkiew greckokatolicka" and the translator, not
                  > knowing the difference, translated it as "Orthodox".
                  >
                  > Regarding the 1920s and later, when the Orthodox Church began to be
                  > reestablished in the Lemko Region, the distinction can be very
                  > important if one is talking in terms of genealogy and church
                  > records, which we are. In some villages one may have to deal with
                  > records of both churches to cover the 1920s-1940s. On the other
                  > hand, if one is under the mistaken impression (as are many, many
                  > American Rusyns/Lemkos of Orthodox Christian confession) that in the
                  > 1800s they need to find Orthodox church records because their
                  > parents and grandparents were Orthodox in the U.S., they may never
                  > find the records they think they need because there simply were no
                  > Orthodox churches to have kept records.
                  >
                  > Genealogists have to learn & understand many different new and
                  > perhaps difficult or confusing concepts. I don't see why the
                  > difference between the Orthodox and Greek/Byzantine/Eastern Catholic
                  > churches is some unusually higher degree of complexity, except that
                  > our American culture, in the goal of avoiding "impolite"
                  > discussions, has relegated the even rudimentary understanding of
                  > religious beliefs, practice, and history to something only for
                  > clergy or specialists.
                  >
                  > Rich Custer (vchromoho)
                  >
                  >
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