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Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Chrzaszcz surname

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  • Debbie
    Carol, I think everyone is! ;) Just kidding but there are quite a few of us and I am one. I ve been keeping track of the folks who have contacted me with ties
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 12, 2003
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      Carol,
      I think everyone is! ;)
      Just kidding but there are quite a few of us and I am one. I've been
      keeping track of the folks who have contacted me with ties to Chrza~szcz
      in the hopes of making connections. This is difficult because we seem to
      be on different generational levels and we don't have enough information
      about the families (siblings, etc).

      My line:
      Tekla Chrza~szcz DOB 1809 married Antoni Zytka on January 21, 1827 in
      Bukowsko. Tekla was Antoni's first wife. She died Aug. 28, 1852. (Antoni
      then married Agata Zadylak in July 1853).

      Tekla Chrza~szcz parents:
      Pawel~ Chrza~szcz DOB 1782 and Marianna Pil~at DOB 1784 were married in
      Dec. 1802.
      Marianna Pil~at's father was Szymon Pil~at.

      Tekla Chrza~szcz and Antoni Zytka's children:
      Marianna Zytka DOB 1829
      Agata Zytka DOB 1833
      Zofia Zytka DOB 1837
      Pawel~ Zytka DOB 1840
      Cecylia Zytka DOB 1842
      Mal~gorzata Zytka DOB 1846
      Jo~zef Zytka DOB 1849

      In some cases I have spousal and children information.

      1) As an aside, as of Sept. 2002, there were 83 males and 105 females
      with this surname living in the Sanok powiat (that would include
      Bukowsko and most of the "triangle").

      2) I keep "cards" on records of unmatched people from Bukowsko hoping to
      someday match them to a researcher or myself. I acquired these records
      through hand copying records from Bukowsko record books and by also
      copying down the other records listed on record pages sent to me by ks.
      Borcz several years ago. These last records include my ancestor's record
      as well as a few others.

      3) As of 2002 there were nine Chrza~szcz in Bukowsko with telephones.

      4) There is a Chrza~szcz surname which is nobility. However, as far as I
      know, a direct line of relations has not been brought all the way to
      present records (1850's).

      5) Chrza~szcz in some cases, was changed to "Jones" in the U.S. This is
      due to the closeness of pronunciation.

      It is not unusual for folks in Bukowsko (and other areas) to state they
      are not related to your Chra~szcz even if they are. Poles are generally
      not interested in genealogy. Although they will know their grandparent's
      names, they may not know names of older ancestors. It all has to be
      proven. This is difficult because of the small village, relatively few
      surnames and constant inter-marrying back and forth. As I have told
      several people, when it all comes together we'll find that everyone with
      ties to Bukowsko is related.

      So, Carol, who are your Chrza~szcz?
      Debbie

      caerlam wrote:
      > Hi all. Is anyone reseaching this surname from Bukowsko?
      > Carol
    • caerlam
      ... This is ... Just how is Chrza~szcz pronounced? There is no direct relation for me. I haven t had any luck in finding where my ggm, Juliana Kowalchick
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 12, 2003
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        --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Debbie <daveg@a...> wrote:

        > 5) Chrza~szcz in some cases, was changed to "Jones" in the U.S.
        This is
        > due to the closeness of pronunciation.

        Just how is Chrza~szcz pronounced?

        There is no direct relation for me. I haven't had any luck in
        finding where my ggm, Juliana Kowalchick Kramar, is from so I
        sometimes look up her sisters, Kataryna (Katherine) and Sofia. By
        dumb luck (I did a "Steve Morse" Bukowsko town seach looking for
        someone else), I found Kataryna Chrza~szcz on the Ellis Island
        records coming back to Minersville, PA in 1906 and travelling from
        Bukowsko with her daughers, Anna, Mary and Zofia (I suspect that may
        be Josefina...I don't know of a Zofia but she's the age of
        Josefina). Her husband, Antoni (Anthony) was in Minersville
        already. I wonder why she would have gone to Bukowsko with a 3 yr.
        old, 2 yr old and 10 month old (all children were US born)? I
        wonder if she was from the BT area but I have no proof and
        Kowalchick may as well be Jones, it's so popular. Anyway, I brought
        all this up because this Chrza~szcz family changed their name to
        Shunk and I thought maybe it would be a help to someone. What I
        learned too was that I had the incorrect spelling (Chrzascz,
        Chazascz). Josephine was my mom's Godmother.

        Poles are generally
        > not interested in genealogy.

        Too bad for us who are Polish and interested!

        Thanks, Debbie. You have done quite an impressive amount of
        research!
        Carol
      • Jan Cesarczyk
        Hi Carol, I must admit that I was surpised by Debbie s point about closeness of pronunciation until I tried pronouncing Chrza~szcz according to English
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 13, 2003
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          Hi Carol,

          I must admit that I was surpised by Debbie's point about closeness of
          pronunciation until I tried pronouncing Chrza~szcz according to English
          prounounciation rules. The Polish pronounciation is as folows:
          Ch - guteral "h" as "ch" in Scottish "Loch"
          rz - the same as Polish "z~" as "g" in "gillette" or French "j" often
          represented in English as "zh"
          a~ - as "on" in French but probably closer to "own" in English
          sz - very hard "sh" in English
          cz - very hard "ch" in English

          Putting it all together you get something like: Hh-zh-own-shch

          The word means grasshopper and is probably one of the most difficult Polish
          words for non-slavs to pronounce.

          All the best
          Jan

          -----Original Message-----
          From: caerlam [SMTP:caerlam@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2003 7:09 PM
          To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Chrzaszcz surname

          --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Debbie <daveg@a...> wrote:

          > 5) Chrza~szcz in some cases, was changed to "Jones" in the U.S.
          This is
          > due to the closeness of pronunciation.

          Just how is Chrza~szcz pronounced?

          There is no direct relation for me. I haven't had any luck in
          finding where my ggm, Juliana Kowalchick Kramar, is from so I
          sometimes look up her sisters, Kataryna (Katherine) and Sofia. By
          dumb luck (I did a "Steve Morse" Bukowsko town seach looking for
          someone else), I found Kataryna Chrza~szcz on the Ellis Island
          records coming back to Minersville, PA in 1906 and travelling from
          Bukowsko with her daughers, Anna, Mary and Zofia (I suspect that may
          be Josefina...I don't know of a Zofia but she's the age of
          Josefina). Her husband, Antoni (Anthony) was in Minersville
          already. I wonder why she would have gone to Bukowsko with a 3 yr.
          old, 2 yr old and 10 month old (all children were US born)? I
          wonder if she was from the BT area but I have no proof and
          Kowalchick may as well be Jones, it's so popular. Anyway, I brought
          all this up because this Chrza~szcz family changed their name to
          Shunk and I thought maybe it would be a help to someone. What I
          learned too was that I had the incorrect spelling (Chrzascz,
          Chazascz). Josephine was my mom's Godmother.

          Poles are generally
          > not interested in genealogy.

          Too bad for us who are Polish and interested!

          Thanks, Debbie. You have done quite an impressive amount of
          research!
          Carol



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        • Philip Semanchuk
          ... Jan, Far be it from *me* to correct anyone s Polish, especially yours! But I would offer different examples for one sound. rz (which as you point out is
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 13, 2003
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            On Wed, 2003-08-13 at 05:02, Jan Cesarczyk wrote:
            > I must admit that I was surpised by Debbie's point about closeness of
            > pronunciation until I tried pronouncing Chrza~szcz according to English
            > prounounciation rules. The Polish pronounciation is as folows:
            > Ch - guteral "h" as "ch" in Scottish "Loch"
            > rz - the same as Polish "z~" as "g" in "gillette" or French "j" often
            > represented in English as "zh"
            > a~ - as "on" in French but probably closer to "own" in English
            > sz - very hard "sh" in English
            > cz - very hard "ch" in English

            Jan,
            Far be it from *me* to correct anyone's Polish, especially yours! But I
            would offer different examples for one sound. rz (which as you point out
            is the same as z with a dot over it) sounds like the S in fusion, the Z
            in azure, the S in measure and the second G in garage. This last one is
            a tricky example because I know in Britain some people pronouce this
            word like "garridge" in which case one doesn't hear the Polish "RZ"
            sound. Perhaps cross-pond dialecticalities (?) account for an apparent
            differnce in the way we pronounce "gillette"? We don't pronounce it as a
            French word ("zhillette"); for us the G is hard like the J in the name
            Jill.

            As for a~ (A with an "ogonek", the cute little pig tail hanging from the
            bottom), a Polish woman told me on me recent trip that this sounds like
            "agn" with the "gn" pronounced the same as the French word "champagne".
            Is that accurate in your opinion?

            > The word means grasshopper and is probably one of the most difficult Polish
            > words for non-slavs to pronounce.

            Right up there with Przemsyl =)

            Au revoir,
            Philip
          • Debbie
            Philip and Jan, What fun! This is one of those Polish words that really needs to be heard! Many of the sounds are not heard/said in English. In order to
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 13, 2003
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              Philip and Jan,
              What fun!
              This is one of those Polish words that really needs to be heard! Many of
              the sounds are not heard/said in English. In order to pronounce them
              correctly we have to use OTHER language pronunciations to explain. !!!!

              Philip, I lean more towards Jan's explanation of the "a~" pronunciation.
              I especially like the example of "own"-without the tongue touching the
              roof of the mouth, but coming really close to it.

              Personally, I find Polish to be a pretty language to listen to. I
              consider French to be pretty also. I find the phrase, "sklep spoz~ywczo"
              to be particularly fun. (grocery store).
              Debbie

              > On Wed, 2003-08-13 at 05:02, Jan Cesarczyk wrote:
              > > I must admit that I was surpised by Debbie's point about closeness of
              > > pronunciation until I tried pronouncing Chrza~szcz according to English
              > > prounounciation rules. The Polish pronounciation is as folows:
              > > Ch - guteral "h" as "ch" in Scottish "Loch"
              > > rz - the same as Polish "z~" as "g" in "gillette" or French "j" often
              > > represented in English as "zh"
              > > a~ - as "on" in French but probably closer to "own" in English
              > > sz - very hard "sh" in English
              > > cz - very hard "ch" in English
              >
              Philip Semanchuk wrote:
              > Jan,
              > Far be it from *me* to correct anyone's Polish, especially yours! But I
              > would offer different examples for one sound. rz (which as you point out
              > is the same as z with a dot over it) sounds like the S in fusion, the Z
              > in azure, the S in measure and the second G in garage. This last one is
              > a tricky example because I know in Britain some people pronouce this
              > word like "garridge" in which case one doesn't hear the Polish "RZ"
              > sound. Perhaps cross-pond dialecticalities (?) account for an apparent
              > differnce in the way we pronounce "gillette"? We don't pronounce it as a
              > French word ("zhillette"); for us the G is hard like the J in the name
              > Jill.
              >
              > As for a~ (A with an "ogonek", the cute little pig tail hanging from the
              > bottom), a Polish woman told me on me recent trip that this sounds like
              > "agn" with the "gn" pronounced the same as the French word "champagne".
              > Is that accurate in your opinion?
              >
              > > The word means grasshopper and is probably one of the most difficult Polish words for non-slavs to pronounce.
              > Right up there with Przemsyl =)
              >
              > Au revoir,
              > Philip
            • Jan Cesarczyk
              As Debbie says What fun ! And as Philip points out there are differences between British pronunciation and American pronunciation.and I would go along with
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 13, 2003
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                As Debbie says "What fun"!
                And as Philip points out there are differences between British
                pronunciation and American pronunciation.and I would go along with azure
                and measure for "rz"
                Philip I am wondering how you pronounce Champagne, but as far as I can make
                out the "gne" sounds like the Polish "n~"

                Jan
                .


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Debbie [SMTP:daveg@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2003 11:40 PM
                To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Chrzaszcz surname

                Philip and Jan,
                What fun!
                This is one of those Polish words that really needs to be heard! Many of
                the sounds are not heard/said in English. In order to pronounce them
                correctly we have to use OTHER language pronunciations to explain. !!!!

                Philip, I lean more towards Jan's explanation of the "a~" pronunciation.
                I especially like the example of "own"-without the tongue touching the
                roof of the mouth, but coming really close to it.

                Personally, I find Polish to be a pretty language to listen to. I
                consider French to be pretty also. I find the phrase, "sklep spoz~ywczo"
                to be particularly fun. (grocery store).
                Debbie

                > On Wed, 2003-08-13 at 05:02, Jan Cesarczyk wrote:
                > > I must admit that I was surpised by Debbie's point about closeness of
                > > pronunciation until I tried pronouncing Chrza~szcz according to English
                > > prounounciation rules. The Polish pronounciation is as folows:
                > > Ch - guteral "h" as "ch" in Scottish "Loch"
                > > rz - the same as Polish "z~" as "g" in "gillette" or French "j" often
                > > represented in English as "zh"
                > > a~ - as "on" in French but probably closer to "own" in English
                > > sz - very hard "sh" in English
                > > cz - very hard "ch" in English
                >
                Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                > Jan,
                > Far be it from *me* to correct anyone's Polish, especially yours! But I
                > would offer different examples for one sound. rz (which as you point out
                > is the same as z with a dot over it) sounds like the S in fusion, the Z
                > in azure, the S in measure and the second G in garage. This last one is
                > a tricky example because I know in Britain some people pronouce this
                > word like "garridge" in which case one doesn't hear the Polish "RZ"
                > sound. Perhaps cross-pond dialecticalities (?) account for an apparent
                > differnce in the way we pronounce "gillette"? We don't pronounce it as a
                > French word ("zhillette"); for us the G is hard like the J in the name
                > Jill.
                >
                > As for a~ (A with an "ogonek", the cute little pig tail hanging from the
                > bottom), a Polish woman told me on me recent trip that this sounds like
                > "agn" with the "gn" pronounced the same as the French word "champagne".
                > Is that accurate in your opinion?
                >
                > > The word means grasshopper and is probably one of the most difficult
                Polish words for non-slavs to pronounce.
                > Right up there with Przemsyl =)
                >
                > Au revoir,
                > Philip


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              • Debbie
                Carol, A lot of people from Bukowsko settled in Minersville, Pennsylvania; Sayerville, New Jersey; South River, New Jersey and Chicago, Illinois. There are
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 13, 2003
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                  Carol,
                  A lot of people from Bukowsko settled in Minersville, Pennsylvania;
                  Sayerville, New Jersey; South River, New Jersey and Chicago, Illinois.
                  There are people on this list who have/had relatives in all of these
                  places.

                  I know of a few relatives who came to the U.S. had kids and then went
                  back to Poland either to visit or to stay. I know some relatives who
                  came to the U.S. had kids, went back to Poland and the kids married and
                  then came back to the U.S. It was hard leaving all of the family in
                  Poland especially if the immigrant didn't speak English. Some just
                  couldn't decide where they wanted to live. Others just had to visit
                  their family "back home."

                  Zofia would probably have been Americanized to Sophie. Jo~zefa or
                  Jo~zefina are different names.

                  Debbie

                  caerlam wrote:
                  > There is no direct relation for me. I haven't had any luck in
                  > finding where my ggm, Juliana Kowalchick Kramar, is from so I
                  > sometimes look up her sisters, Kataryna (Katherine) and Sofia. By
                  > dumb luck (I did a "Steve Morse" Bukowsko town seach looking for
                  > someone else), I found Kataryna Chrza~szcz on the Ellis Island
                  > records coming back to Minersville, PA in 1906 and travelling from
                  > Bukowsko with her daughers, Anna, Mary and Zofia (I suspect that may
                  > be Josefina...I don't know of a Zofia but she's the age of
                  > Josefina). Her husband, Antoni (Anthony) was in Minersville
                  > already. I wonder why she would have gone to Bukowsko with a 3 yr.
                  > old, 2 yr old and 10 month old (all children were US born)? I
                  > wonder if she was from the BT area but I have no proof and
                  > Kowalchick may as well be Jones, it's so popular. Anyway, I brought
                  > all this up because this Chrza~szcz family changed their name to
                  > Shunk and I thought maybe it would be a help to someone. What I
                  > learned too was that I had the incorrect spelling (Chrzascz,
                  > Chazascz). Josephine was my mom's Godmother.
                  >
                  > Carol
                • Philip Semanchuk
                  ... Ooops, I meant champagne as the French pronounce it which wasn t at all clear from my mail. Personally I pronounce it like most Americans: sham-PAIN .
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 14, 2003
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                    On Wed, 2003-08-13 at 19:18, Jan Cesarczyk wrote:
                    > Philip I am wondering how you pronounce Champagne, but as far as I can make
                    > out the "gne" sounds like the Polish "n~"

                    Ooops, I meant "champagne" as the French pronounce it which wasn't at
                    all clear from my mail. Personally I pronounce it like most Americans:
                    "sham-PAIN".

                    Thanks!
                    P
                  • Debbie
                    Philip, Then I suppose you would also use the following pronunciation, mercy buckets for merci beaucoup. ;) Debbie
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 14, 2003
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                      Philip,
                      Then I suppose you would also use the following pronunciation, "mercy
                      buckets" for "merci beaucoup." ;)

                      Debbie

                      Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                      >Personally I pronounce it like most Americans:
                      > "sham-PAIN".
                      > Thanks!
                      > P
                    • Jan Cesarczyk
                      Don t you mean: murky buckets ? ;) If I m not mistaken the french pronunciation of Champagne according to Polish spelling and pronounciation would be
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 15, 2003
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                        Don't you mean: "murky buckets" ? ;)

                        If I'm not mistaken the french pronunciation of "Champagne" according to Polish spelling and pronounciation would be written as "sza~pan~"

                        Jan

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Debbie [SMTP:daveg@...]
                        Sent: Friday, August 15, 2003 12:40 AM
                        To: bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] Re: Chrzaszcz surname

                        Philip,
                        Then I suppose you would also use the following pronunciation, "mercy
                        buckets" for "merci beaucoup." ;)

                        Debbie

                        Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                        >Personally I pronounce it like most Americans:
                        > "sham-PAIN".
                        > Thanks!
                        > P


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                      • Debbie
                        Carol, How about some information on your Chrza~szcz ancestors?
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 20, 2003
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                          Carol,
                          How about some information on your Chrza~szcz ancestors?

                          Debbie wrote:
                          > Carol,
                          > My line:
                          > Tekla Chrza~szcz DOB 1809 married Antoni Zytka on January 21, 1827 in
                          > Bukowsko. Tekla was Antoni's first wife. She died Aug. 28, 1852. (Antoni
                          > then married Agata Zadylak in July 1853).
                          >
                          > Tekla Chrza~szcz parents:
                          > Pawel~ Chrza~szcz DOB 1782 and Marianna Pil~at DOB 1784 were married in
                          > Dec. 1802.
                          > Marianna Pil~at's father was Szymon Pil~at.
                          >
                          > Tekla Chrza~szcz and Antoni Zytka's children:
                          > Marianna Zytka DOB 1829
                          > Agata Zytka DOB 1833
                          > Zofia Zytka DOB 1837
                          > Pawel~ Zytka DOB 1840
                          > Cecylia Zytka DOB 1842
                          > Mal~gorzata Zytka DOB 1846
                          > Jo~zef Zytka DOB 1849
                          >
                          > In some cases I have spousal and children information.
                          > Debbie
                        • caerlam
                          Debbie, See post #330. Carol
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 21, 2003
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                            Debbie,
                            See post #330.
                            Carol
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.