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Re: OT: Lemko Put-Downs

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  • Sherri
    Debbie & Gloria, Wonderful insights into family dynamics! If part of the issue was correct language , then this aunt had gone to private Catholic school run
    Message 1 of 37 , May 9, 2012
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      Debbie & Gloria,

      Wonderful insights into family dynamics! If part of the issue was
      "correct language", then this aunt had gone to private Catholic school
      run by Ukrainian nuns, and she'd had courses in formal Ukrainian
      language & grammar, as well as history, so that would have put her at a
      distinct advantage. To her, my side of the family would have been
      speaking non-standard Ukrainian handed down from two generations ago.
      Her husband took Russian courses in college & got blasted by the
      professor for his fall-back pronunciation of Russian words
      Ukrainian-style, as did all the other Ukies in the class. He'd laugh
      about how frustrated the poor teacher got.

      There was also table discussion about DP's as well as "greenies" which
      translated to "greenhorns" or "just got off the boat". I assume they
      felt superior to those who had not been in the US as long as their own
      families had, but I'd bet this was a common attitude.

      On the other hand, I don't really know what other regional Ukrainian
      groups hailed from Galicia. If she wasn't Lemko, but was Byzantine
      Catholic, what was she? Her mother was born in Delaware, so that's no
      help. There's some confusion on the manifests as to whether her father
      was born here or came over when he was three. Are there regional
      differences with choosing first names I've never come across before?
      Like Longin/Lonhen, Fowinal, and Yawinal [not sure of all spellings]?
      Do they have English counterparts?

      Sherri


      --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Greenlee <daveg@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Sherri,
      >
      > I don't know that this was any different than what most immigrants
      > dealt with.
      >
      > Certainly even today "intermarriage", whether it involves a difference
      > in race, nationality or religion, brings out the ignorance in some
      > people/families.
      >
      > If you are asking specifically about the term hillbilly, the only
      > thing I can come up with is that Lemkos tried to stay to themselves
      > and were farmers, not city people. I can remember as a teenager
      > hearing kids refer to others as "farmers" in a derogatory manner.
      > There is nothing wrong with being a farmer but they were equated with
      > being of a lower class and the kids who were being derided were seen
      > in the same light. I expect it's the same with your aunt. She felt
      > "above" the Lemkos in your family.
      >
      > Debbie
      >
      >
      > Sherri wrote:
      > > Debbie & Gloria,
      > >
      > > Many thanks for translating the record. John/Ivan is the great-uncle
      I
      > > have the least information about. In my old notes I did not list his
      > > wife's name, probably because my relatives did not know it.
      > >
      > > Yes, I am pretty sure I am Lemko, altho' that seemed to be a point
      of
      > > contention among other sides of the family who married in. One aunt
      > > used it as a kind of insult, I inferred from the context of her
      > > comments. This always confused me, & the adults seemed to have
      trouble
      > > explaining why. One said it meant "hillbilly". My grandmother, who
      was
      > > born in PA, seemed very annoyed with her daughter-in-law when this
      > > argument repeated almost yearly at the Xmas Eve feast. My aunt's
      family
      > > was also Ukrainian, but may have been from another part of Galicia.
      I'm
      > > currently searching thru manifests to find out where her family
      > > originated. Why would her derision have been so laughable to her? It
      > > seemed like she was trying to get a rise out of everyone else.
      > >
      > > I would very much appreciate some interpretation since
      inter-Ukrainian
      > > insults were out of my league & just bewildered me.
      > >
      > > Sherri
      > >
      > > On Mon, May 7, 2012 at 4:22 PM, Sherri sherrisarts@ wrote:
      > >>
      > >>> Or maybe this is the Ivan I really want? It looks like he's
      heading
      > > to somewhere in New York.
      > >>>
      > >>>
      >
      http://www.ellisisland.org/search/shipManifest.asp?MID=01464045430180749\
      056&T=Search+for++SIDOR&LNM=SIDOR&PLNM=SIDOR&last_kind=0&RF=296&pID=1017\
      60040030&lookup=101760040030&show=%5C%5C192%2E168%2E100%2E11%5Cimages%5C\
      T715-1082%5CT715-10820321%2ETIF&origFN=%5C%5C192%2E168%2E100%2E11%5CIMAG\
      ES%5CT715-1082%5CT715-10820322%2ETIF
      >
    • Justin
      Sherri, None of this rings a bell, although certainly Frackville/Minersville is where a lot of these people went. I ve never seen the spelling Sztaszicski for
      Message 37 of 37 , May 12, 2012
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        Sherri,

        None of this rings a bell, although certainly Frackville/Minersville is where a lot of these people went. I've never seen the spelling Sztaszicski for this family, so I'm not sure if it is the same family. It could be, I just don't know. The ones I know of lived in Zawadka Morochowska.

        Justin

        --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, "Sherri" <sherrisarts@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Justin,
        >
        > My great-grandmother was Eva Stashitsy [1876-1941] wife of Jacob Sachar
        > who settled in Frackville, PA. I also have a list of Eva's siblings,
        > their spouses and children. Eva's parents are listed as Wasyl
        > Stashitcki [d.1890], written down by the US marriage priest as Basilius
        > Sztaszicki, and Mary Barnetsky/Barnicki [c. 1855]. I want to say that
        > the family was from Kulaszne, but now it seems like my ancestral village
        > was getting very crowded. I think my family tradition is that the
        > Sachar/Szachar line is from Kulaszne, but now I'm not so sure about the
        > Stashitsky/Sztaszicki line. They met in Shuylkill County, PA after
        > emigration, so they did not have to be from the same hometown, now that
        > I think about it.
        >
        > Are any of these names familiar to you and your research? Yes, I'd
        > certainly be glad to share. Thanks.
        >
        > Sherri
        >
        >
        > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, "Justin" <JKHouser84@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Sherri,
        > >
        > > I notice that you mention Stashitski.
        > >
        > > That sounds very similar to Starzecky / Starzetski / Stazhetski, a
        > name with which I'm familiar. There were a lot of them from Zawadka
        > Morochowska, my ancestral village, but I know from this list and
        > Philip's site that the name is common throughout the BT.
        > >
        > > The ones I have info on descend from Teodor Starziski/Starzecky, born
        > probably ca. 1845, who had at least 4 children -- Joseph (b. 1877), who
        > settled in Tyrone, Pennsylvania; Catherine, wife of Joseph Nieczysty,
        > whose daughter settled in New Jersey and whose son settled in
        > Minersville, Pa.; another son who had children Andrew and Anna, who came
        > to America after WWII; and a daughter Anna who lived in Poland. Of the
        > ones who came to America I have a lot of info on descendants.
        > >
        > > If this fits with anything let me know and I'll be glad to share. As I
        > said this name is common and I don't know how the other lines connect.
        > Undoubtedly there is more information about this family in the Zawadka
        > church records which I've not yet had the opportunity to examine.
        > >
        > > Justin
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, "Sherri" sherrisarts@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Hi Larry,
        > > >
        > > > I am using a list called "Lemko Village Resource Guide" at
        > > > http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/new/
        > <http://www.carpatho-rusyn.org/new/>
        > > > . There are over 350 villages which existed in 1780-something and
        > the
        > > > names of families which lived in those parishes at the time. Then
        > > > there's the current Rusyn & Polish spellings of the villages as well
        > as
        > > > which church district they now belong to. Most have a short blurb
        > about
        > > > the name of the local church & what happened to it over time. Most
        > also
        > > > have a head count of number of Greek Catholics, Roman Catholics, and
        > > > Jews total, with some villages noting the head count every 20 years
        > or
        > > > so.
        > > >
        > > > I became fascinated with trying to track down the spellings of
        > > > Socker/Sachar/Szachar and Seedor/Sidor/Sydor as the male lineages in
        > my
        > > > family. I was also looking for maternal names Stashitsky [mutiple
        > > > possible variations] and Barnetsky/Barniecki. 230 years ago, those
        > > > spellings could have been vastly different and then evolved and
        > mutated.
        > > > It's fascinating to watch and conjure.
        > > >
        > > > Thank you for your kind offer in Syracuse, but I'm not quite ready
        > to
        > > > move on with that branch till I get more info or clues.
        > > >
        > > > Sherri
        > > >
        > > > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, larrybell.cny@ wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Hi Sherri,
        > > > >
        > > > > Progress is sometimes slow, 2 steps forward and 1 back.
        > > > >
        > > > > Where did you find the cadastral maps? I ordered some from
        > Przemys~l
        > > > but haven't heard anything back. Do you have another source?
        > > > >
        > > > > I live an hour from Syracuse, so I could check the records here
        > > > sometime if that would help you.
        > > > >
        > > > > Larry
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, "Sherri" sherrisarts@
        > wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Hi Mary,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > None of these details seem to match my family members,
        > > > unfortunately.
        > > > > > Nobody went to the Pittsburgh area or New Jersey or Buffalo.
        > John's
        > > > > > farm was near Syracuse, NY. Dmitro returned to the US in
        > December
        > > > 1913
        > > > > > & must have died soon after, as my notes say c.1913. His wife
        > Tekla
        > > > > > must have gone back home for a few years with two very young
        > > > children
        > > > > > and returned again in 1916, only to die heself in 1918. What a
        > sad
        > > > > > tale. Maybe the influenza pandemic?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Dmitro was traveling with a "ward", Fran Chrin, a 14 yo male of
        > > > mother
        > > > > > Mary Chrin of Kulaszne. Was that typical to be noted on a
        > manifest?
        > > > > > Did that mean he was likely to "adopt" the boy? I guess it
        > didn't
        > > > > > matter much because his 2 or 3 children were soon enough
        > orphans,
        > > > and
        > > > > > who knows what happened to them?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > What is the likelihood of people with the same surname who were
        > from
        > > > the
        > > > > > same tiny dot of a village being related? I've been going thru
        > the
        > > > > > Lemko Cadastral records from 1780s & hit the bullseye with
        > another
        > > > > > village, Shchavne [Ru] Szczawne [Polish], of the current Sanok
        > > > district
        > > > > > with at least four different family names that are familiar,
        > plus I
        > > > > > noted it lurking on one of the manifests.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Thank you for deciphering that handwriting. I was having
        > problems
        > > > with
        > > > > > getting matching first and second pages from Ellis Island too.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Sherri
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, mary osborne
        > > > > > <marykosborne@> wrote:
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Hi Sherri,
        > > > > > > All the detail listed below boils down to Charleroi, PA, and
        > > > > > > Salamanca, NY, as the destinations you could not read. I am
        > > > certain
        > > > > > I have read them
        > > > > > > correctly. The key is to know the names before you try to read
        > > > them!
        > > > > > :-)
        > > > > > > ------------------
        > > > > > > Metro Sidor, age 35, arrived Dec. 23, 1898, going to an
        > > > > > > unnamed brother-in-law in Charleroi, PA. (Charleroi is south
        > of
        > > > > > Pittsburgh.)
        > > > > > > ----------------
        > > > > > > Iwan Sidor, age 26, arrived April 27, 1910, from father
        > > > > > > Fedor Sidor, going to Salamanca, NY. (
        > > > > > > Salamanca is south of Buffalo, NY, close to the Pennsylvania
        > > > border.)
        > > > > > The second manifest page shown on Ancestry.com does not appear
        > to be
        > > > > > for the same
        > > > > > > person. It says he was going to his
        > > > > > > brother Stefan Szkwarel/Szkivarel? of Detroit , Mich.,
        > Hapbrey?
        > > > 84. I
        > > > > > could not find his secondmanifest page on
        > > > > > > the Ellis Island website.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Filip Winiarz, age 36, was supposed to arrive April 27, 1910,
        > from
        > > > > > wife Katarzyna Winiarz,
        > > > > > > going to .... Newark? On Ancestry.com the second page says he
        > had
        > > > > > been in Salamanca from 1904
        > > > > > > to 1909. He was supposed to go to cousin Alex S...zylock? of
        > > > Salamanca
        > > > > > .... His name was crossed off the manifest. I could not find the
        > > > > > second page of the
        > > > > > > manifest on the Ellis Island website. Ellis Island does show
        > that
        > > > he
        > > > > > apparently was one of the ocean yoyoes because it looks as
        > though he
        > > > > > may be the same
        > > > > > > person who arrived at Ellis Island on March 10, 1907.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > Daniel Sidor, age 26, arrived April 27, 1910, from his wife to
        > > > > > Newark, NJ. On
        > > > > > > Ancestry.com the second page says he was going to cousin Jan
        > > > > > Krol?/Krot? of Wjersey?
        > > > > > > (New Jersey, I presume), Newark, Pacific ...4 . I'm not
        > convinced
        > > > > > this second manifest page is
        > > > > > > for the right person. I couldn't find
        > > > > > > his second page on the Ellis Island website.
        > > > > > > ------------
        > > > > > > The other Iwan Sidor, age 24, arrived March 24, 1908, from
        > > > > > > his wife Kasia Sidor to Whippany, NY (but it has to be NJ)
        > going
        > > > to
        > > > > > his brother-in-law Lukasz Rowik/Kowik? (more
        > > > > > > likely Kowik--look at the K in his wife's name Kasia).
        > > > > > > ------------------
        > > > > > > Larry,
        > > > > > > Please keep asking questions about your planned trip. I'm
        > going,
        > > > > > too--in July. I'm following everything you ask and all the
        > > > > > > answers you get. It is very helpful
        > > > > > > because I don't even know what questions to ask!
        > > > > > > Mary
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        >
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