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Re: [bukowsko_triangle] People you meet

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  • Robert Koczera
    You are lucky! When Debbie told me the story I said it should be screened on tv as out of this world story . I can write the screenplay. All the best I hope
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 30, 2011
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      You are lucky!
      When Debbie told me the story I said it should be screened on tv as "out of this world story".
      I can write the screenplay.
      All the best I hope to meet you in the area next time
      Robert


      ________________________________
      From: Josephine Christopher <ireneandjo@...>
      To: "bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com" <bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, September 30, 2011 8:59 PM
      Subject: Re: [bukowsko_triangle] People you meet


       
      Never did we expect to meet Debbie and co on our search for the cemetery in Przybyszow during our visit this time - our third!.  Don't know who was more shocked, our Polish guide, Pan Jerzy (George), Debbie or us.  Just goes to show..take Philip's advice...it's there, you've just got to find it!
       
      We'll let you have more on our trip when we return to the UK.
       
      Irene, Jo, Julie

      ________________________________
      From: Debbie Greenlee <daveg@...>
      To: Bukowsko Triangle <bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011, 22:17
      Subject: [bukowsko_triangle] People you meet

       
      Two pretty extraordinary things happened today so I'm sending this out
      of order.

      Today we drove to Karlikow, to the ski hill and beyond. Our
      destination was Przybyszow. I stopped a little past the ski hill and
      parked the car on the side of the road (being generous here). We
      walked about 10 miles (well, maybe less) up hill. All of a sudden
      Maryann calls out (she was in the lead) that she found the cemetery in
      Przybyszow. Keep in mind that this village was leveled during Akcja
      Wisla. I got busy taking pictures of the 6 headstones that were
      standing. Maryann was talking to a young man, Piotr Bryla who was
      restoring the cemetery. Piotr is 42 years old and single. He seemed to
      know everything about the village of Przybyszow AND he is related to
      . . . Philip Semanczuk!!! Piotr said he'd been to Philip's web
      site and was able to make the connection. He hasn't written to Philip
      because he doesn't know English. I told him to write anyway and "we"
      would have his message translated.

      So, Piotr, a Bojko Rusyn, took us farther along the "road" to the site
      of the Przybyszow school, cerkiew and another cemetery. There is
      nothing left of the school or cerkiew. There was one headstone and a
      memorial in this second headstone.

      While we were walking towards the cerkiew site we came upon three
      women and one man who appeared to be hiking. The women spoke British
      English and were of Lemko ancestry. Within a few minutes one of them
      asked, "Are you Debbie Greenlee?" No kidding! We were so surprised to
      hear that question in the middle of a forest in Poland. The women were
      . . . Josephine and Irene and their sister-in-law!!! We made proper
      introductions, took photos and then went on our respective ways.

      What a day!

      Debbie

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Justin
      Absolutely a remarkable story! Thanks for sharing!!! And good luck in your searches in the homeland!
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 1, 2011
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        Absolutely a remarkable story! Thanks for sharing!!! And good luck in your searches in the homeland!

        --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Josephine Christopher <ireneandjo@...> wrote:
        >
        > Never did we expect to meet Debbie and co on our search for the cemetery in Przybyszow during our visit this time - our third!.  Don't know who was more shocked, our Polish guide, Pan Jerzy (George), Debbie or us.  Just goes to show..take Philip's advice...it's there, you've just got to find it!
        >  
        > We'll let you have more on our trip when we return to the UK.
        >  
        > Irene, Jo, Julie
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: Debbie Greenlee <daveg@...>
        > To: Bukowsko Triangle <bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, 29 September 2011, 22:17
        > Subject: [bukowsko_triangle] People you meet
        >
        >
        >  
        > Two pretty extraordinary things happened today so I'm sending this out
        > of order.
        >
        > Today we drove to Karlikow, to the ski hill and beyond. Our
        > destination was Przybyszow. I stopped a little past the ski hill and
        > parked the car on the side of the road (being generous here). We
        > walked about 10 miles (well, maybe less) up hill. All of a sudden
        > Maryann calls out (she was in the lead) that she found the cemetery in
        > Przybyszow. Keep in mind that this village was leveled during Akcja
        > Wisla. I got busy taking pictures of the 6 headstones that were
        > standing. Maryann was talking to a young man, Piotr Bryla who was
        > restoring the cemetery. Piotr is 42 years old and single. He seemed to
        > know everything about the village of Przybyszow AND he is related to
        > . . . Philip Semanczuk!!! Piotr said he'd been to Philip's web
        > site and was able to make the connection. He hasn't written to Philip
        > because he doesn't know English. I told him to write anyway and "we"
        > would have his message translated.
        >
        > So, Piotr, a Bojko Rusyn, took us farther along the "road" to the site
        > of the Przybyszow school, cerkiew and another cemetery. There is
        > nothing left of the school or cerkiew. There was one headstone and a
        > memorial in this second headstone.
        >
        > While we were walking towards the cerkiew site we came upon three
        > women and one man who appeared to be hiking. The women spoke British
        > English and were of Lemko ancestry. Within a few minutes one of them
        > asked, "Are you Debbie Greenlee?" No kidding! We were so surprised to
        > hear that question in the middle of a forest in Poland. The women were
        > . . . Josephine and Irene and their sister-in-law!!! We made proper
        > introductions, took photos and then went on our respective ways.
        >
        > What a day!
        >
        > Debbie
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Marie Hughes
        Dear Debbie, What an amazing course of events! I can only imagine your excitement. Can you tell me a bit about your trip into Przybyszow ......when you
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 3, 2011
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          Dear Debbie,
          What an amazing course of events! I can only imagine your excitement. Can you tell me a bit about your trip into Przybyszow ......when you have more time upon your return. Our guide was unfamiliar with Przybyszow but we found the road which lead into the village past Karlkow.we could not go too far into the village area as the road was deeply rutted. So I would like to know what direction you went from there........ We met a Piotr that worked at the skansen in sanok and he had a friend (single man) who live in Przybyszow fixing up a house so I wonder if there is a connection. Again, I am happy for your success and am grateful once again of your sharing of information.

          I can only say that Philip once again is a lucky man.......to find more family!

          On another note I have finally received my great grandfather's (Nikolai Niemeic) death record (hardly readable) on it was stated my Gr Grandmother's maiden name Orenka Zucak........does anyone have a connection to this surname?

          Marie



          On Sep 29, 2011, at 4:17 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:

          > Two pretty extraordinary things happened today so I'm sending this out
          > of order.
          >
          > Today we drove to Karlikow, to the ski hill and beyond. Our
          > destination was Przybyszow. I stopped a little past the ski hill and
          > parked the car on the side of the road (being generous here). We
          > walked about 10 miles (well, maybe less) up hill. All of a sudden
          > Maryann calls out (she was in the lead) that she found the cemetery in
          > Przybyszow. Keep in mind that this village was leveled during Akcja
          > Wisla. I got busy taking pictures of the 6 headstones that were
          > standing. Maryann was talking to a young man, Piotr Bryla who was
          > restoring the cemetery. Piotr is 42 years old and single. He seemed to
          > know everything about the village of Przybyszow AND he is related to
          > . . . Philip Semanczuk!!! Piotr said he'd been to Philip's web
          > site and was able to make the connection. He hasn't written to Philip
          > because he doesn't know English. I told him to write anyway and "we"
          > would have his message translated.
          >
          > So, Piotr, a Bojko Rusyn, took us farther along the "road" to the site
          > of the Przybyszow school, cerkiew and another cemetery. There is
          > nothing left of the school or cerkiew. There was one headstone and a
          > memorial in this second headstone.
          >
          > While we were walking towards the cerkiew site we came upon three
          > women and one man who appeared to be hiking. The women spoke British
          > English and were of Lemko ancestry. Within a few minutes one of them
          > asked, "Are you Debbie Greenlee?" No kidding! We were so surprised to
          > hear that question in the middle of a forest in Poland. The women were
          > . . . Josephine and Irene and their sister-in-law!!! We made proper
          > introductions, took photos and then went on our respective ways.
          >
          > What a day!
          >
          > Debbie
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Debbie Greenlee
          Marie et al, I have not had internet since Sept. 29. I do plan to talk more about Przybyszow and I hope to send more diaries today. Locating internet in
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 4, 2011
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            Marie et al,

            I have not had internet since Sept. 29. I do plan to talk more about
            Przybyszow and I hope to send more "diaries" today. Locating internet
            in Ukraine is . . . difficult.

            Debbie

            Marie Hughes wrote:
            > Dear Debbie,
            > What an amazing course of events! I can only imagine your excitement. Can you tell me a bit about your trip into Przybyszow ......when you have more time upon your return. Our guide was unfamiliar with Przybyszow but we found the road which lead into the village past Karlkow.we could not go too far into the village area as the road was deeply rutted. So I would like to know what direction you went from there........ We met a Piotr that worked at the skansen in sanok and he had a friend (single man) who live in Przybyszow fixing up a house so I wonder if there is a connection. Again, I am happy for your success and am grateful once again of your sharing of information.
            >
            > I can only say that Philip once again is a lucky man.......to find more family!
            >
            > On another note I have finally received my great grandfather's (Nikolai Niemeic) death record (hardly readable) on it was stated my Gr Grandmother's maiden name Orenka Zucak........does anyone have a connection to this surname?
            >
            > Marie
            >
            >
            >
            > On Sep 29, 2011, at 4:17 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:
            >
            >> Two pretty extraordinary things happened today so I'm sending this out
            >> of order.
            >>
            >> Today we drove to Karlikow, to the ski hill and beyond. Our
            >> destination was Przybyszow. I stopped a little past the ski hill and
            >> parked the car on the side of the road (being generous here). We
            >> walked about 10 miles (well, maybe less) up hill. All of a sudden
            >> Maryann calls out (she was in the lead) that she found the cemetery in
            >> Przybyszow. Keep in mind that this village was leveled during Akcja
            >> Wisla. I got busy taking pictures of the 6 headstones that were
            >> standing. Maryann was talking to a young man, Piotr Bryla who was
            >> restoring the cemetery. Piotr is 42 years old and single. He seemed to
            >> know everything about the village of Przybyszow AND he is related to
            >> . . . Philip Semanczuk!!! Piotr said he'd been to Philip's web
            >> site and was able to make the connection. He hasn't written to Philip
            >> because he doesn't know English. I told him to write anyway and "we"
            >> would have his message translated.
            >>
            >> So, Piotr, a Bojko Rusyn, took us farther along the "road" to the site
            >> of the Przybyszow school, cerkiew and another cemetery. There is
            >> nothing left of the school or cerkiew. There was one headstone and a
            >> memorial in this second headstone.
            >>
            >> While we were walking towards the cerkiew site we came upon three
            >> women and one man who appeared to be hiking. The women spoke British
            >> English and were of Lemko ancestry. Within a few minutes one of them
            >> asked, "Are you Debbie Greenlee?" No kidding! We were so surprised to
            >> hear that question in the middle of a forest in Poland. The women were
            >> . . . Josephine and Irene and their sister-in-law!!! We made proper
            >> introductions, took photos and then went on our respective ways.
            >>
            >> What a day!
            >>
            >> Debbie
            >>
            >
          • Justin
            Debbie, You should be able to find an Internet cafe in (most) villages. Where are you presently located in Ukraine? We found Internet in a small cafe/room in
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 5, 2011
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              Debbie,

              You should be able to find an Internet cafe in (most) villages.

              Where are you presently located in Ukraine? We found Internet in a small cafe/room in Hutsulshchyna (Ivano-Frankivs'ka oblast) but you had to walk nearly a mile along an unpaved road outside of town to get to it.

              :)

              Good luck on your travels!!!!

              Justin

              --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Debbie Greenlee <daveg@...> wrote:
              >
              > Marie et al,
              >
              > I have not had internet since Sept. 29. I do plan to talk more about
              > Przybyszow and I hope to send more "diaries" today. Locating internet
              > in Ukraine is . . . difficult.
              >
              > Debbie
              >
              > Marie Hughes wrote:
              > > Dear Debbie,
              > > What an amazing course of events! I can only imagine your excitement. Can you tell me a bit about your trip into Przybyszow ......when you have more time upon your return. Our guide was unfamiliar with Przybyszow but we found the road which lead into the village past Karlkow.we could not go too far into the village area as the road was deeply rutted. So I would like to know what direction you went from there........ We met a Piotr that worked at the skansen in sanok and he had a friend (single man) who live in Przybyszow fixing up a house so I wonder if there is a connection. Again, I am happy for your success and am grateful once again of your sharing of information.
              > >
              > > I can only say that Philip once again is a lucky man.......to find more family!
              > >
              > > On another note I have finally received my great grandfather's (Nikolai Niemeic) death record (hardly readable) on it was stated my Gr Grandmother's maiden name Orenka Zucak........does anyone have a connection to this surname?
              > >
              > > Marie
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > On Sep 29, 2011, at 4:17 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:
              > >
              > >> Two pretty extraordinary things happened today so I'm sending this out
              > >> of order.
              > >>
              > >> Today we drove to Karlikow, to the ski hill and beyond. Our
              > >> destination was Przybyszow. I stopped a little past the ski hill and
              > >> parked the car on the side of the road (being generous here). We
              > >> walked about 10 miles (well, maybe less) up hill. All of a sudden
              > >> Maryann calls out (she was in the lead) that she found the cemetery in
              > >> Przybyszow. Keep in mind that this village was leveled during Akcja
              > >> Wisla. I got busy taking pictures of the 6 headstones that were
              > >> standing. Maryann was talking to a young man, Piotr Bryla who was
              > >> restoring the cemetery. Piotr is 42 years old and single. He seemed to
              > >> know everything about the village of Przybyszow AND he is related to
              > >> . . . Philip Semanczuk!!! Piotr said he'd been to Philip's web
              > >> site and was able to make the connection. He hasn't written to Philip
              > >> because he doesn't know English. I told him to write anyway and "we"
              > >> would have his message translated.
              > >>
              > >> So, Piotr, a Bojko Rusyn, took us farther along the "road" to the site
              > >> of the Przybyszow school, cerkiew and another cemetery. There is
              > >> nothing left of the school or cerkiew. There was one headstone and a
              > >> memorial in this second headstone.
              > >>
              > >> While we were walking towards the cerkiew site we came upon three
              > >> women and one man who appeared to be hiking. The women spoke British
              > >> English and were of Lemko ancestry. Within a few minutes one of them
              > >> asked, "Are you Debbie Greenlee?" No kidding! We were so surprised to
              > >> hear that question in the middle of a forest in Poland. The women were
              > >> . . . Josephine and Irene and their sister-in-law!!! We made proper
              > >> introductions, took photos and then went on our respective ways.
              > >>
              > >> What a day!
              > >>
              > >> Debbie
              > >>
              > >
              >
            • Debbie Greenlee
              Justin, Although some people south of Lviv have internet they do not have WiFi and the schedule did not allow for us to travel around looking for an internet
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 7, 2011
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                Justin,

                Although some people south of Lviv have internet they do not have WiFi
                and the schedule did not allow for us to travel around looking for an
                internet cafe. We are back in Lviv for a few days.

                Debbie

                Justin wrote:
                > Debbie,
                >
                > You should be able to find an Internet cafe in (most) villages.
                >
                > Where are you presently located in Ukraine? We found Internet in a small cafe/room in Hutsulshchyna (Ivano-Frankivs'ka oblast) but you had to walk nearly a mile along an unpaved road outside of town to get to it.
                >
                > :)
                >
                > Good luck on your travels!!!!
                >
                > Justin
                >
              • Debbie Greenlee
                Marie, Sorry I did not respond before now. Poor internet access in Ukraine. To Przybyszow: take that rutted up, by foot or tractor. That s the only way to get
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 9, 2011
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                  Marie,

                  Sorry I did not respond before now. Poor internet access in Ukraine.

                  To Przybyszow: take that rutted up, by foot or tractor. That's the
                  only way to get to the cemetery. You have to walk almost a mile, I
                  think, but the cemetery will jump out at you on the right. Finding the
                  site of the cerkiew and school would take a guide as they are not marked.

                  Debbie

                  Marie Hughes wrote:
                  > Dear Debbie,
                  > What an amazing course of events! I can only imagine your excitement. Can you tell me a bit about your trip into Przybyszow ......when you have more time upon your return. Our guide was unfamiliar with Przybyszow but we found the road which lead into the village past Karlkow.we could not go too far into the village area as the road was deeply rutted. So I would like to know what direction you went from there........ We met a Piotr that worked at the skansen in sanok and he had a friend (single man) who live in Przybyszow fixing up a house so I wonder if there is a connection. Again, I am happy for your success and am grateful once again of your sharing of information.
                  >
                  > I can only say that Philip once again is a lucky man.......to find more family!
                  >
                  > On another note I have finally received my great grandfather's (Nikolai Niemeic) death record (hardly readable) on it was stated my Gr Grandmother's maiden name Orenka Zucak........does anyone have a connection to this surname?
                  >
                  > Marie
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Sep 29, 2011, at 4:17 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                  >
                  >> Two pretty extraordinary things happened today so I'm sending this out
                  >> of order.
                  >>
                  >> Today we drove to Karlikow, to the ski hill and beyond. Our
                  >> destination was Przybyszow. I stopped a little past the ski hill and
                  >> parked the car on the side of the road (being generous here). We
                  >> walked about 10 miles (well, maybe less) up hill. All of a sudden
                  >> Maryann calls out (she was in the lead) that she found the cemetery in
                  >> Przybyszow. Keep in mind that this village was leveled during Akcja
                  >> Wisla. I got busy taking pictures of the 6 headstones that were
                  >> standing. Maryann was talking to a young man, Piotr Bryla who was
                  >> restoring the cemetery. Piotr is 42 years old and single. He seemed to
                  >> know everything about the village of Przybyszow AND he is related to
                  >> . . . Philip Semanczuk!!! Piotr said he'd been to Philip's web
                  >> site and was able to make the connection. He hasn't written to Philip
                  >> because he doesn't know English. I told him to write anyway and "we"
                  >> would have his message translated.
                  >>
                  >> So, Piotr, a Bojko Rusyn, took us farther along the "road" to the site
                  >> of the Przybyszow school, cerkiew and another cemetery. There is
                  >> nothing left of the school or cerkiew. There was one headstone and a
                  >> memorial in this second headstone.
                  >>
                  >> While we were walking towards the cerkiew site we came upon three
                  >> women and one man who appeared to be hiking. The women spoke British
                  >> English and were of Lemko ancestry. Within a few minutes one of them
                  >> asked, "Are you Debbie Greenlee?" No kidding! We were so surprised to
                  >> hear that question in the middle of a forest in Poland. The women were
                  >> . . . Josephine and Irene and their sister-in-law!!! We made proper
                  >> introductions, took photos and then went on our respective ways.
                  >>
                  >> What a day!
                  >>
                  >> Debbie
                  >>
                • Marie Hughes
                  Okay so we actually we not that far.....relatively! I am sooooo jealous. My husband and I want to return next year to Ukraine to see the family and I might
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 9, 2011
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                    Okay so we actually we not that far.....relatively! I am sooooo jealous. My husband and I want to return next year to Ukraine to see the family and I might just have to come back around to Przybyszow so see things for myself.
                    Hope you have some pictures !!
                    Thanks again for sharing,
                    Marie

                    On Oct 9, 2011, at 11:48 AM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:

                    > Marie,
                    >
                    > Sorry I did not respond before now. Poor internet access in Ukraine.
                    >
                    > To Przybyszow: take that rutted up, by foot or tractor. That's the
                    > only way to get to the cemetery. You have to walk almost a mile, I
                    > think, but the cemetery will jump out at you on the right. Finding the
                    > site of the cerkiew and school would take a guide as they are not marked.
                    >
                    > Debbie
                    >
                    > Marie Hughes wrote:
                    > > Dear Debbie,
                    > > What an amazing course of events! I can only imagine your excitement. Can you tell me a bit about your trip into Przybyszow ......when you have more time upon your return. Our guide was unfamiliar with Przybyszow but we found the road which lead into the village past Karlkow.we could not go too far into the village area as the road was deeply rutted. So I would like to know what direction you went from there........ We met a Piotr that worked at the skansen in sanok and he had a friend (single man) who live in Przybyszow fixing up a house so I wonder if there is a connection. Again, I am happy for your success and am grateful once again of your sharing of information.
                    > >
                    > > I can only say that Philip once again is a lucky man.......to find more family!
                    > >
                    > > On another note I have finally received my great grandfather's (Nikolai Niemeic) death record (hardly readable) on it was stated my Gr Grandmother's maiden name Orenka Zucak........does anyone have a connection to this surname?
                    > >
                    > > Marie
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > On Sep 29, 2011, at 4:17 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                    > >
                    > >> Two pretty extraordinary things happened today so I'm sending this out
                    > >> of order.
                    > >>
                    > >> Today we drove to Karlikow, to the ski hill and beyond. Our
                    > >> destination was Przybyszow. I stopped a little past the ski hill and
                    > >> parked the car on the side of the road (being generous here). We
                    > >> walked about 10 miles (well, maybe less) up hill. All of a sudden
                    > >> Maryann calls out (she was in the lead) that she found the cemetery in
                    > >> Przybyszow. Keep in mind that this village was leveled during Akcja
                    > >> Wisla. I got busy taking pictures of the 6 headstones that were
                    > >> standing. Maryann was talking to a young man, Piotr Bryla who was
                    > >> restoring the cemetery. Piotr is 42 years old and single. He seemed to
                    > >> know everything about the village of Przybyszow AND he is related to
                    > >> . . . Philip Semanczuk!!! Piotr said he'd been to Philip's web
                    > >> site and was able to make the connection. He hasn't written to Philip
                    > >> because he doesn't know English. I told him to write anyway and "we"
                    > >> would have his message translated.
                    > >>
                    > >> So, Piotr, a Bojko Rusyn, took us farther along the "road" to the site
                    > >> of the Przybyszow school, cerkiew and another cemetery. There is
                    > >> nothing left of the school or cerkiew. There was one headstone and a
                    > >> memorial in this second headstone.
                    > >>
                    > >> While we were walking towards the cerkiew site we came upon three
                    > >> women and one man who appeared to be hiking. The women spoke British
                    > >> English and were of Lemko ancestry. Within a few minutes one of them
                    > >> asked, "Are you Debbie Greenlee?" No kidding! We were so surprised to
                    > >> hear that question in the middle of a forest in Poland. The women were
                    > >> . . . Josephine and Irene and their sister-in-law!!! We made proper
                    > >> introductions, took photos and then went on our respective ways.
                    > >>
                    > >> What a day!
                    > >>
                    > >> Debbie
                    > >>
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Debbie Greenlee
                    Mary Ann, I ve finally had the time to look at the page you cites below. Though I can t make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly with a
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 18, 2011
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                      Mary Ann,

                      I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below. Though
                      I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly with a
                      Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland, there are
                      L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who believe
                      they are Ukrainian.

                      The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                      translation.

                      Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko community
                      made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                      (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                      (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                      I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could have
                      lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by L~emkos.

                      As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old. woj.,
                      this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they returned)
                      in this area.

                      This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that involved
                      L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.

                      Debbie

                      Mary Ann wrote:
                      > Debbie,
                      > While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"! Being recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really have been something!
                      >
                      > I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is alive (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)". This map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I surmised) but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever you get a chance to look at it.
                      >
                      > Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                      > MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                      >
                      >
                    • MaryAnn Bensinger
                      Debbie, Thanks for looking at the page. My mother s family (from Ukraine) considered themselves Rusyns and my father s family (Sanok area) later joined the
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 18, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Debbie,
                        Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                        considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area) later
                        joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think they
                        considered themselves Ukrainian? I suppose some of that confusion
                        contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure of
                        what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                        Thanks again,
                        MA

                        Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Mary Ann,
                        >
                        > I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below. Though
                        > I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly with a
                        > Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland, there are
                        > L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who believe
                        > they are Ukrainian.
                        >
                        > The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                        > translation.
                        >
                        > Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko community
                        > made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                        > (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                        > (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                        > I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could have
                        > lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by L~emkos.
                        >
                        > As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old. woj.,
                        > this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they returned)
                        > in this area.
                        >
                        > This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that involved
                        > L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                        >
                        > Debbie
                        >
                        > Mary Ann wrote:
                        > > Debbie,
                        > > While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"! Being
                        > recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                        > have been something!
                        > >
                        > > I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                        > interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                        > http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is alive
                        > (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                        > "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)". This
                        > map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I surmised)
                        > but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                        > knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever you get a
                        > chance to look at it.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                        > > MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Debbie Greenlee
                        MaryAnn, I also think some of the confusion was a result of the Greek Orthodox changes here and in Poland/Ukraine. Debbie
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 18, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          MaryAnn,

                          I also think some of the confusion was a result of the Greek Orthodox
                          changes here and in Poland/Ukraine.

                          Debbie

                          MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:
                          > Debbie,
                          > Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                          > considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area) later
                          > joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think they
                          > considered themselves Ukrainian? I suppose some of that confusion
                          > contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure of
                          > what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                          > Thanks again,
                          > MA
                          >
                          > Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Mary Ann,
                          >>
                          >> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below. Though
                          >> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly with a
                          >> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland, there are
                          >> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who believe
                          >> they are Ukrainian.
                          >>
                          >> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                          >> translation.
                          >>
                          >> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko community
                          >> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                          >> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                          >> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                          >> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could have
                          >> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by L~emkos.
                          >>
                          >> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old. woj.,
                          >> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they returned)
                          >> in this area.
                          >>
                          >> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that involved
                          >> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                          >>
                          >> Debbie
                          >>
                          >> Mary Ann wrote:
                          >>> Debbie,
                          >>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"! Being
                          >> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                          >> have been something!
                          >>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                          >> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                          >> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is alive
                          >> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                          >> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)". This
                          >> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I surmised)
                          >> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                          >> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever you get a
                          >> chance to look at it.
                          >>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                          >>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                          >>>
                        • Philip Semanchuk
                          ... A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the best option available. bye P
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 18, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:

                            > Debbie,
                            > Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                            > considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area) later
                            > joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think they
                            > considered themselves Ukrainian?

                            A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the best option available.

                            bye
                            P



                            > I suppose some of that confusion
                            > contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure of
                            > what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                            > Thanks again,
                            > MA
                            >
                            > Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Mary Ann,
                            >>
                            >> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below. Though
                            >> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly with a
                            >> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland, there are
                            >> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who believe
                            >> they are Ukrainian.
                            >>
                            >> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                            >> translation.
                            >>
                            >> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko community
                            >> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                            >> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                            >> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                            >> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could have
                            >> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by L~emkos.
                            >>
                            >> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old. woj.,
                            >> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they returned)
                            >> in this area.
                            >>
                            >> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that involved
                            >> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                            >>
                            >> Debbie
                            >>
                            >> Mary Ann wrote:
                            >>> Debbie,
                            >>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"! Being
                            >> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                            >> have been something!
                            >>>
                            >>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                            >> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                            >> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is alive
                            >> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                            >> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)". This
                            >> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I surmised)
                            >> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                            >> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever you get a
                            >> chance to look at it.
                            >>>
                            >>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                            >>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                            >>>
                            >>>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Marie Hughes
                            When reading about the history of the greek catholic church both their native land and the struggles of acceptance in this country I believe Philip hit the
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 18, 2011
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                              When reading about the history of the greek catholic church both their native land and the struggles of acceptance in this country I believe Philip hit the nail on the head.
                              Marie
                              On Oct 18, 2011, at 2:14 PM, Philip Semanchuk wrote:

                              >
                              > On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:
                              >
                              > > Debbie,
                              > > Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                              > > considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area) later
                              > > joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think they
                              > > considered themselves Ukrainian?
                              >
                              > A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the best option available.
                              >
                              > bye
                              > P
                              >
                              > > I suppose some of that confusion
                              > > contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure of
                              > > what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                              > > Thanks again,
                              > > MA
                              > >
                              > > Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> Mary Ann,
                              > >>
                              > >> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below. Though
                              > >> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly with a
                              > >> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland, there are
                              > >> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who believe
                              > >> they are Ukrainian.
                              > >>
                              > >> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                              > >> translation.
                              > >>
                              > >> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko community
                              > >> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                              > >> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                              > >> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                              > >> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could have
                              > >> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by L~emkos.
                              > >>
                              > >> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old. woj.,
                              > >> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they returned)
                              > >> in this area.
                              > >>
                              > >> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that involved
                              > >> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                              > >>
                              > >> Debbie
                              > >>
                              > >> Mary Ann wrote:
                              > >>> Debbie,
                              > >>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"! Being
                              > >> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                              > >> have been something!
                              > >>>
                              > >>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                              > >> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                              > >> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is alive
                              > >> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                              > >> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)". This
                              > >> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I surmised)
                              > >> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                              > >> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever you get a
                              > >> chance to look at it.
                              > >>>
                              > >>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                              > >>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • MaryAnn Bensinger
                              Philip, I remember that in Minersville, PA the Ukrainian church my grandmother attended was a few blocks from the Greek Catholic church which was my
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 18, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Philip,
                                I remember that in Minersville, PA the Ukrainian church my grandmother
                                attended was a few blocks from the Greek Catholic church which was my
                                grandmother's choice back in Dudynce. Perhaps it was a choice of which
                                was closer to walk to at that time.
                                If I recall correctly, after /Akcja Wis?a /my grandmother's Greek
                                Catholic church in Dudynce was dismantled by the villagers of Komancza
                                and taken to Komancza where it was set up on top of their "meeting
                                house" as the top floor. I remember reading that during the communist
                                era the people of Komancza weren't allowed to erect a church, just a
                                "meeting house" so I suppose this was an act of defiance? In any case
                                my grandmother's Greek Catholic church (from Dudynce) as is now appears
                                in Komancza can be seen at
                                http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Catholic_Church_in_Koma%C5%84cza
                                MA


                                Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:
                                >
                                > > Debbie,
                                > > Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                                > > considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area) later
                                > > joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think they
                                > > considered themselves Ukrainian?
                                >
                                > A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the best
                                > option available.
                                >
                                > bye
                                > P
                                >
                                > > I suppose some of that confusion
                                > > contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure of
                                > > what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                                > > Thanks again,
                                > > MA
                                > >
                                > > Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >> Mary Ann,
                                > >>
                                > >> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below. Though
                                > >> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly with a
                                > >> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland, there are
                                > >> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who believe
                                > >> they are Ukrainian.
                                > >>
                                > >> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                                > >> translation.
                                > >>
                                > >> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko community
                                > >> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                                > >> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                                > >> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                                > >> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could have
                                > >> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by L~emkos.
                                > >>
                                > >> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old. woj.,
                                > >> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they returned)
                                > >> in this area.
                                > >>
                                > >> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that involved
                                > >> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                                > >>
                                > >> Debbie
                                > >>
                                > >> Mary Ann wrote:
                                > >>> Debbie,
                                > >>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"! Being
                                > >> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                                > >> have been something!
                                > >>>
                                > >>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                                > >> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                                > >> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is alive
                                > >> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                                > >> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)". This
                                > >> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I surmised)
                                > >> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                                > >> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever you get a
                                > >> chance to look at it.
                                > >>>
                                > >>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                                > >>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                                > >>>
                                > >>>
                                > >>
                                > >>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Justin
                                MaryAnn, Was the Ukrainian Church in Minersville a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church or a Ukrainian Orthodox Church? Justin
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 24, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  MaryAnn,

                                  Was the Ukrainian Church in Minersville a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church or a Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

                                  Justin

                                  --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, MaryAnn Bensinger <bensings@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Philip,
                                  > I remember that in Minersville, PA the Ukrainian church my grandmother
                                  > attended was a few blocks from the Greek Catholic church which was my
                                  > grandmother's choice back in Dudynce. Perhaps it was a choice of which
                                  > was closer to walk to at that time.
                                  > If I recall correctly, after /Akcja Wis?a /my grandmother's Greek
                                  > Catholic church in Dudynce was dismantled by the villagers of Komancza
                                  > and taken to Komancza where it was set up on top of their "meeting
                                  > house" as the top floor. I remember reading that during the communist
                                  > era the people of Komancza weren't allowed to erect a church, just a
                                  > "meeting house" so I suppose this was an act of defiance? In any case
                                  > my grandmother's Greek Catholic church (from Dudynce) as is now appears
                                  > in Komancza can be seen at
                                  > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Catholic_Church_in_Koma%C5%84cza
                                  > MA
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Debbie,
                                  > > > Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                                  > > > considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area) later
                                  > > > joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think they
                                  > > > considered themselves Ukrainian?
                                  > >
                                  > > A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the best
                                  > > option available.
                                  > >
                                  > > bye
                                  > > P
                                  > >
                                  > > > I suppose some of that confusion
                                  > > > contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure of
                                  > > > what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                                  > > > Thanks again,
                                  > > > MA
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> Mary Ann,
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below. Though
                                  > > >> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly with a
                                  > > >> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland, there are
                                  > > >> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who believe
                                  > > >> they are Ukrainian.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                                  > > >> translation.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko community
                                  > > >> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                                  > > >> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                                  > > >> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                                  > > >> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could have
                                  > > >> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by L~emkos.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old. woj.,
                                  > > >> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they returned)
                                  > > >> in this area.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that involved
                                  > > >> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> Debbie
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> Mary Ann wrote:
                                  > > >>> Debbie,
                                  > > >>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"! Being
                                  > > >> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                                  > > >> have been something!
                                  > > >>>
                                  > > >>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                                  > > >> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                                  > > >> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is alive
                                  > > >> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                                  > > >> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)". This
                                  > > >> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I surmised)
                                  > > >> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                                  > > >> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever you get a
                                  > > >> chance to look at it.
                                  > > >>>
                                  > > >>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                                  > > >>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                                  > > >>>
                                  > > >>>
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • MaryAnn Bensinger
                                  Justin, According to the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church online site (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/443/6/) : *Opportunity for
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 24, 2011
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Justin,
                                    According to the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church online site
                                    (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/443/6/) :

                                    *Opportunity for work in steel mills and mines brought people here as
                                    part of the Great Slavic Migration of 1880--1915. The first Greek
                                    Catholic church in Minersville, St. George, was established in 1896. A
                                    new St George was built in 1913, though it was destroyed by fire in
                                    1919. In 1916, prior to the fire, the original St. George's became St.
                                    Nicholas Greek Catholic Uniate Church. After the fire a new St. Nicholas
                                    church was built in 1937 on the site.

                                    *I'm seeing there is only one "cross bar" on their cross...am I to
                                    assume they are Roman Catholic? The Sts. Peter and Paul Byzantine
                                    Church on 4th street was also part of St George Greek Catholic Church at
                                    one time (as was St. Nicholas) so it becomes very confusing to me.
                                    MaryAnn



                                    Justin wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > MaryAnn,
                                    >
                                    > Was the Ukrainian Church in Minersville a Ukrainian Greek Catholic
                                    > Church or a Ukrainian Orthodox Church?
                                    >
                                    > Justin
                                    >
                                    > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                                    > <mailto:bukowsko_triangle%40yahoogroups.com>, MaryAnn Bensinger
                                    > <bensings@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Philip,
                                    > > I remember that in Minersville, PA the Ukrainian church my grandmother
                                    > > attended was a few blocks from the Greek Catholic church which was my
                                    > > grandmother's choice back in Dudynce. Perhaps it was a choice of which
                                    > > was closer to walk to at that time.
                                    > > If I recall correctly, after /Akcja Wis?a /my grandmother's Greek
                                    > > Catholic church in Dudynce was dismantled by the villagers of Komancza
                                    > > and taken to Komancza where it was set up on top of their "meeting
                                    > > house" as the top floor. I remember reading that during the communist
                                    > > era the people of Komancza weren't allowed to erect a church, just a
                                    > > "meeting house" so I suppose this was an act of defiance? In any case
                                    > > my grandmother's Greek Catholic church (from Dudynce) as is now appears
                                    > > in Komancza can be seen at
                                    > >
                                    > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Catholic_Church_in_Koma%C5%84cza
                                    > > MA
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Debbie,
                                    > > > > Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                                    > > > > considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area)
                                    > later
                                    > > > > joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think they
                                    > > > > considered themselves Ukrainian?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the
                                    > best
                                    > > > option available.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > bye
                                    > > > P
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > I suppose some of that confusion
                                    > > > > contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure of
                                    > > > > what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                                    > > > > Thanks again,
                                    > > > > MA
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> Mary Ann,
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below.
                                    > Though
                                    > > > >> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly
                                    > with a
                                    > > > >> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland,
                                    > there are
                                    > > > >> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who
                                    > believe
                                    > > > >> they are Ukrainian.
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                                    > > > >> translation.
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko community
                                    > > > >> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                                    > > > >> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                                    > > > >> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                                    > > > >> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could
                                    > have
                                    > > > >> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by
                                    > L~emkos.
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old.
                                    > woj.,
                                    > > > >> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they
                                    > returned)
                                    > > > >> in this area.
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that
                                    > involved
                                    > > > >> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> Debbie
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> Mary Ann wrote:
                                    > > > >>> Debbie,
                                    > > > >>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"!
                                    > Being
                                    > > > >> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                                    > > > >> have been something!
                                    > > > >>>
                                    > > > >>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                                    > > > >> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                                    > > > >> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is
                                    > alive
                                    > > > >> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                                    > > > >> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)".
                                    > This
                                    > > > >> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I
                                    > surmised)
                                    > > > >> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                                    > > > >> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever
                                    > you get a
                                    > > > >> chance to look at it.
                                    > > > >>>
                                    > > > >>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                                    > > > >>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                                    > > > >>>
                                    > > > >>>
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Walt/Gloria Elston
                                    Mary Ann, My family s home church in Plymouth PA , SS Peter & Paul Ukrainian Catholic Church, moved into a new structure about 10 yrs ago and the crosses atop
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 24, 2011
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Mary Ann, My family's home church in Plymouth PA , SS Peter & Paul
                                      Ukrainian Catholic Church, moved into a new structure about 10 yrs ago and
                                      the crosses atop the domes do not have the crossbar. I believe it is a
                                      continuation of the Latinization of the Greek Catholic churches.

                                      Gloria

                                      On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:50 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger
                                      <bensings@...>wrote:

                                      > **
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Justin,
                                      > According to the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church online site
                                      > (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/443/6/) :
                                      >
                                      > *Opportunity for work in steel mills and mines brought people here as
                                      > part of the Great Slavic Migration of 1880--1915. The first Greek
                                      > Catholic church in Minersville, St. George, was established in 1896. A
                                      > new St George was built in 1913, though it was destroyed by fire in
                                      > 1919. In 1916, prior to the fire, the original St. George's became St.
                                      > Nicholas Greek Catholic Uniate Church. After the fire a new St. Nicholas
                                      > church was built in 1937 on the site.
                                      >
                                      > *I'm seeing there is only one "cross bar" on their cross...am I to
                                      > assume they are Roman Catholic? The Sts. Peter and Paul Byzantine
                                      > Church on 4th street was also part of St George Greek Catholic Church at
                                      > one time (as was St. Nicholas) so it becomes very confusing to me.
                                      > MaryAnn
                                      >
                                      > Justin wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > MaryAnn,
                                      > >
                                      > > Was the Ukrainian Church in Minersville a Ukrainian Greek Catholic
                                      > > Church or a Ukrainian Orthodox Church?
                                      > >
                                      > > Justin
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > <mailto:bukowsko_triangle%40yahoogroups.com>, MaryAnn Bensinger
                                      > > <bensings@...> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Philip,
                                      > > > I remember that in Minersville, PA the Ukrainian church my grandmother
                                      > > > attended was a few blocks from the Greek Catholic church which was my
                                      > > > grandmother's choice back in Dudynce. Perhaps it was a choice of which
                                      > > > was closer to walk to at that time.
                                      > > > If I recall correctly, after /Akcja Wis?a /my grandmother's Greek
                                      > > > Catholic church in Dudynce was dismantled by the villagers of Komancza
                                      > > > and taken to Komancza where it was set up on top of their "meeting
                                      > > > house" as the top floor. I remember reading that during the communist
                                      > > > era the people of Komancza weren't allowed to erect a church, just a
                                      > > > "meeting house" so I suppose this was an act of defiance? In any case
                                      > > > my grandmother's Greek Catholic church (from Dudynce) as is now appears
                                      > > > in Komancza can be seen at
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Catholic_Church_in_Koma%C5%84cza
                                      > > > MA
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > Debbie,
                                      > > > > > Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                                      > > > > > considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area)
                                      > > later
                                      > > > > > joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think
                                      > they
                                      > > > > > considered themselves Ukrainian?
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the
                                      > > best
                                      > > > > option available.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > bye
                                      > > > > P
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > > I suppose some of that confusion
                                      > > > > > contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure
                                      > of
                                      > > > > > what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                                      > > > > > Thanks again,
                                      > > > > > MA
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >> Mary Ann,
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below.
                                      > > Though
                                      > > > > >> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly
                                      > > with a
                                      > > > > >> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland,
                                      > > there are
                                      > > > > >> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who
                                      > > believe
                                      > > > > >> they are Ukrainian.
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                                      > > > > >> translation.
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko
                                      > community
                                      > > > > >> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                                      > > > > >> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                                      > > > > >> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                                      > > > > >> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could
                                      > > have
                                      > > > > >> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by
                                      > > L~emkos.
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old.
                                      > > woj.,
                                      > > > > >> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they
                                      > > returned)
                                      > > > > >> in this area.
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that
                                      > > involved
                                      > > > > >> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >> Debbie
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >> Mary Ann wrote:
                                      > > > > >>> Debbie,
                                      > > > > >>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"!
                                      > > Being
                                      > > > > >> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                                      > > > > >> have been something!
                                      > > > > >>>
                                      > > > > >>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                                      > > > > >> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                                      > > > > >> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is
                                      > > alive
                                      > > > > >> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                                      > > > > >> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)".
                                      > > This
                                      > > > > >> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I
                                      > > surmised)
                                      > > > > >> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                                      > > > > >> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever
                                      > > you get a
                                      > > > > >> chance to look at it.
                                      > > > > >>>
                                      > > > > >>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                                      > > > > >>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                                      > > > > >>>
                                      > > > > >>>
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >>
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • MaryAnn Bensinger
                                      Gloria, Thank you for clearing that up...it does make me feel as tho we re losing our identity one piece at a time. Sad when I remember the churches of
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 24, 2011
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Gloria,
                                        Thank you for clearing that up...it does make me feel as tho we're
                                        losing our identity one piece at a time. Sad when I remember the
                                        churches of yesteryear with the singing in our respective grandparents'
                                        languages...but then I'm getting old...LOL.
                                        MaryAnn

                                        Walt/Gloria Elston wrote:
                                        > Mary Ann, My family's home church in Plymouth PA , SS Peter & Paul
                                        > Ukrainian Catholic Church, moved into a new structure about 10 yrs ago and
                                        > the crosses atop the domes do not have the crossbar. I believe it is a
                                        > continuation of the Latinization of the Greek Catholic churches.
                                        >
                                        > Gloria
                                        >
                                        > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:50 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger
                                        > <bensings@...>wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >> **
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >> Justin,
                                        >> According to the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church online site
                                        >> (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/443/6/) :
                                        >>
                                        >> *Opportunity for work in steel mills and mines brought people here as
                                        >> part of the Great Slavic Migration of 1880--1915. The first Greek
                                        >> Catholic church in Minersville, St. George, was established in 1896. A
                                        >> new St George was built in 1913, though it was destroyed by fire in
                                        >> 1919. In 1916, prior to the fire, the original St. George's became St.
                                        >> Nicholas Greek Catholic Uniate Church. After the fire a new St. Nicholas
                                        >> church was built in 1937 on the site.
                                        >>
                                        >> *I'm seeing there is only one "cross bar" on their cross...am I to
                                        >> assume they are Roman Catholic? The Sts. Peter and Paul Byzantine
                                        >> Church on 4th street was also part of St George Greek Catholic Church at
                                        >> one time (as was St. Nicholas) so it becomes very confusing to me.
                                        >> MaryAnn
                                        >>
                                        >> Justin wrote:
                                        >>
                                        >>> MaryAnn,
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Was the Ukrainian Church in Minersville a Ukrainian Greek Catholic
                                        >>> Church or a Ukrainian Orthodox Church?
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Justin
                                        >>>
                                        >>> --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                                        >>> <mailto:bukowsko_triangle%40yahoogroups.com>, MaryAnn Bensinger
                                        >>> <bensings@...> wrote:
                                        >>>
                                        >>>> Philip,
                                        >>>> I remember that in Minersville, PA the Ukrainian church my grandmother
                                        >>>> attended was a few blocks from the Greek Catholic church which was my
                                        >>>> grandmother's choice back in Dudynce. Perhaps it was a choice of which
                                        >>>> was closer to walk to at that time.
                                        >>>> If I recall correctly, after /Akcja Wis?a /my grandmother's Greek
                                        >>>> Catholic church in Dudynce was dismantled by the villagers of Komancza
                                        >>>> and taken to Komancza where it was set up on top of their "meeting
                                        >>>> house" as the top floor. I remember reading that during the communist
                                        >>>> era the people of Komancza weren't allowed to erect a church, just a
                                        >>>> "meeting house" so I suppose this was an act of defiance? In any case
                                        >>>> my grandmother's Greek Catholic church (from Dudynce) as is now appears
                                        >>>> in Komancza can be seen at
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Catholic_Church_in_Koma%C5%84cza
                                        >>
                                        >>>> MA
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>> Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>> Debbie,
                                        >>>>>> Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                                        >>>>>> considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area)
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>> later
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>> joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >> they
                                        >>
                                        >>>>>> considered themselves Ukrainian?
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>> A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>> best
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>> option available.
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>> bye
                                        >>>>> P
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>>>> I suppose some of that confusion
                                        >>>>>> contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >> of
                                        >>
                                        >>>>>> what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                                        >>>>>> Thanks again,
                                        >>>>>> MA
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Mary Ann,
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> Though
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> with a
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland,
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> there are
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> believe
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> they are Ukrainian.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                                        >>>>>>> translation.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >> community
                                        >>
                                        >>>>>>> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                                        >>>>>>> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                                        >>>>>>> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                                        >>>>>>> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> have
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> L~emkos.
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> woj.,
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> returned)
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> in this area.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> involved
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Debbie
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> Mary Ann wrote:
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> Debbie,
                                        >>>>>>>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"!
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>> Being
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                                        >>>>>>> have been something!
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                                        >>>>>>> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> alive
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                                        >>>>>>> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)".
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> This
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> surmised)
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                                        >>>>>>> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>> you get a
                                        >>>
                                        >>>>>>> chance to look at it.
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                                        >>>>>>>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>>
                                        >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>>
                                        >>>>>
                                        >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>>
                                        >>>
                                        >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >>
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Justin
                                        MaryAnn, According to what I ve found, it appears that the original church in Minersville was St. George. This was a Greek Catholic Church but in the 1920s it
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 24, 2011
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          MaryAnn,

                                          According to what I've found, it appears that the original church in Minersville was St. George. This was a Greek Catholic Church but in the 1920s it became a Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Those who wished to remain Greek Catholic started St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

                                          The history behind this is very lengthy, but as you probably know, the people of the Carpathians have been Eastern-Rite Christians for a millennium. The area of Rus' was converted to Christianity under St. Volodymyr the Great in the year 988, and the form of Christianity adopted was that of the Byzantine, or Greek, Church, as opposed to the Latin, or Roman, Church. Until 1054 both the Greek and the Latin Churches were in communion with each other, and there was thus one church (the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church, as it was often called), although the two regions had different liturgies, and there was no formal, lasting split over doctrine, although there certainly were heated disagreements between East and West. In 1054 the churches mutually excommunicated each other. In 1204 this came to a head when the Roman Church invaded Constantinople, allegedly to counter Constantinople's own violent persecution of Latin Christians there in the preceding decades, and sacked the city including the Greek Cathedrals there, and installed its own patriarch over the Greek Churches, as situation which lasted for decades. After this horrific violence, the churches had little to do with each other. The Church in the West came to be known as the Roman Catholic Church. The Church in the East came to be known as the Orthodox Church. (This is very simplified, but it gets the point across.)

                                          There were some attempts at reunion and it appears that the hierarchs in the area of Przemysl, who had authority over the Carpathians, generally remained aligned with Constantinople and the Orthodox Church, although they sometimes sought political favor and allegiance from the Roman Catholic Church.

                                          Our ancestors probably knew little of this, for two reasons: 1. They were simple peasants, and to them, they went to church on Sunday and the liturgy was served according to the Eastern rite, no matter who was in power; and 2. It is not at all clear that the Lemkos were in the Carpathians en masse before about the 15th century, when they begin appearing in records. It is thought that the groups we know as the Lemkos, Boykos, and Hutsuls, are the descendants of perhaps an original group of Rus' highland dwellers who were there since the time of Volodymyr and before, sometimes called White Croats, and who were mixed in with groups who came up from Wallachia/Romania, groups who came east from what is now Ukraine, as well as possibly groups who came down from what is now Belarus, "beyond the Pripyat' marshes." There was certainly also Tatar genetic contribution due to their waves of conquest and settlement. DNA testing may eventually support some of these theories.

                                          By 1596, several important changes happened to affect our ancestors, who were now firmly settled in the areas of Lemkivshchyna, Boykivshchyna and Hutsulshychyna. First of all, the ancient throne of Rus' and its glory had moved eastward, first from Kyiv to Vladimir, and then to Moscow. Language differences began to arise and the Muscovites became identified as a distinct ethnic group and a strong power. Second, Constantinople fell to the Turks in 1453 and the historic Patriarchate of Constantinople was vastly weakened. Thus, Moscow stepped in as the "Third Rome" (Constantinople had been the second) and received the authority of a new Patriarchate in the Orthodox Church. Finally, Poland-Lithuania, a historically Roman Catholic-oriented empire, had been conquering steadily eastward over the preceding two centuries and had claimed jurisdiction over the area.

                                          The Polish leadership was frightened that the Eastern Christians within its newly-acquired territories would look to Moscow for leadership, and that the Muscovite empire would threaten their control. Add to this that the Orthodox Churches themselves were declining without leadership from Constantinople. Priests were illiterate and uneducated. Many Orthodox bishops came to agree with the Polish government leaders that an alliance with the Roman Catholic Church might be more favorable.

                                          Thus in 1596 the Greek Catholic Church was born. A group of Orthodox bishops within the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth agreed to accept the Pope as their leader and the Roman Catholic teachings as their own, provided that they could continue to celebrate the Divine Liturgy after their own traditions. This was granted. There was a great outcry by some educated Orthodox leaders in the cities against the Union, and thus, the area of our ancestors remained a mixture of Greek Catholic and Orthodox Churches until about 1700. At that point, the bishops had all joined the Greek Catholic Church. Again, our ancestors knew little of what was going on. They went to church on Sunday and the liturgy and customs were the same. Little attention was paid to the effort by the hierarchs, so that in many cases, the Greek Catholic Churches continued to use the Orthodox service books, as they had no others available.

                                          In 1720 the process of reforming the service books began in earnest with the Synod of Zamosc. Now you started to see changes in the Greek Catholic liturgy, what some would call Latinizations. New churches were built without iconostasis, the rosary and traditionally Roman devotions were introduced, etc.

                                          By 1784 Poland had collapsed and was partitioned, with Galicia becoming part of Austria. Austria did not permit any Orthodox Churches to be built within Galicia, so the region was now solidly Greek Catholic.

                                          Fast forward to when these people came to America in the late 1800s and early 1900s. They set up Greek Catholic Churches here and sent for priests from Europe. Almost immediately they had a falling-out with the Roman Catholic hierarchy here, who thought that the married Greek Catholic clergy were dangerous and confusing, and, in some cases, refused to recognize them. Because of this, several things happened, leading to the development of several churches:

                                          1. St. Fr. Alexis Toth, a Greek Catholic priest, contacted the Russian Orthodox Church and asked if he could be placed under their leadership. They agreed, and what was called the "Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church" was organized in the early 20th century. St. Alexis was a great missionary and he went around the country, urging the Greek Catholics to "return" to the Orthodox faith of their ancestors. Hundreds of Greek Catholic Churches followed and became Russian Orthodox. (St. Alexis Toth is buried at the Orthodox monastery near Waymart, Pa., and I've seen his grave.) The ROGCC was granted autonomy from Russia in 1971 and changed its name to the "Orthodox Church in America."

                                          2. The rise of Ukrainian nationalism. In the early 1900s, a consciousness awakened among many immigrants from Galicia that the Lemko people, and neighbors, were part of a Ukrainian nation, with a common culture and various dialects of a common language, which stretched from Donetsk in the east to Galicia in the west. These people promoted Ukrainian literature and culture and established associations to promote these interests.

                                          3. Those who did not follow Ukrainian nationalism. These people, some Galicians and also most of those who lived south of the Carpathians in the area of Uzhhorod and Eastern Slovakia in the former Hungarian part of the Empire, rejected a Ukrainian identity and adhered to the Carpatho-Russian identity.

                                          By the 1920s, the Greek Catholic Church could no longer mediate between these two groups. The Pope appointed two leaders for the church in America: One for the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, and the other for the Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church, later to be called the Byzantine Catholic Church.

                                          The problems within the Greek Catholic Church continued. By the late 1920s, movements by the Roman Catholic hierarchs to exercise control over the priests' marriages as well as the right of the parishes to control their property led many parishes to split, and many people left the Greek Catholic Churches. Those who left the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church at this time (late 1920s) and went to Orthodoxy became the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA. Those who left the Ruthenian/Byzantine Church at this time (1930s) established the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church. Both of these Orthodox Churches are under the authority of the Patriarch of Constantinople, rather than the Patriarch of Moscow, as was the case with the OCA.

                                          That's a lot, but it helps clarify how these things all came to be. So, from the original church of the Carpathians, we now have five different churches in the USA, two Catholic and three Orthodox:

                                          1. Orthodox Church in America
                                          2. Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (that's your St. Nicholas Church)
                                          3. Byzantine Catholic Church (that's your SS Peter & Paul Church)
                                          4. Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA (that's St. George's Church)
                                          5. Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church

                                          I hope this helps out somewhat. I'm happy to discuss further as it is a subject of great interest to me. I'm always learning more, as this history is so detailed and nuanced. I doubt our long-ago ancestors knew much of what was going on, but by the 20th century these events really shaped their destinies and associations here in America.

                                          Justin

                                          --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, MaryAnn Bensinger <bensings@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Justin,
                                          > According to the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church online site
                                          > (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/443/6/) :
                                          >
                                          > *Opportunity for work in steel mills and mines brought people here as
                                          > part of the Great Slavic Migration of 1880--1915. The first Greek
                                          > Catholic church in Minersville, St. George, was established in 1896. A
                                          > new St George was built in 1913, though it was destroyed by fire in
                                          > 1919. In 1916, prior to the fire, the original St. George's became St.
                                          > Nicholas Greek Catholic Uniate Church. After the fire a new St. Nicholas
                                          > church was built in 1937 on the site.
                                          >
                                          > *I'm seeing there is only one "cross bar" on their cross...am I to
                                          > assume they are Roman Catholic? The Sts. Peter and Paul Byzantine
                                          > Church on 4th street was also part of St George Greek Catholic Church at
                                          > one time (as was St. Nicholas) so it becomes very confusing to me.
                                          > MaryAnn
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Justin wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > MaryAnn,
                                          > >
                                          > > Was the Ukrainian Church in Minersville a Ukrainian Greek Catholic
                                          > > Church or a Ukrainian Orthodox Church?
                                          > >
                                          > > Justin
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > <mailto:bukowsko_triangle%40yahoogroups.com>, MaryAnn Bensinger
                                          > > <bensings@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Philip,
                                          > > > I remember that in Minersville, PA the Ukrainian church my grandmother
                                          > > > attended was a few blocks from the Greek Catholic church which was my
                                          > > > grandmother's choice back in Dudynce. Perhaps it was a choice of which
                                          > > > was closer to walk to at that time.
                                          > > > If I recall correctly, after /Akcja Wis?a /my grandmother's Greek
                                          > > > Catholic church in Dudynce was dismantled by the villagers of Komancza
                                          > > > and taken to Komancza where it was set up on top of their "meeting
                                          > > > house" as the top floor. I remember reading that during the communist
                                          > > > era the people of Komancza weren't allowed to erect a church, just a
                                          > > > "meeting house" so I suppose this was an act of defiance? In any case
                                          > > > my grandmother's Greek Catholic church (from Dudynce) as is now appears
                                          > > > in Komancza can be seen at
                                          > > >
                                          > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Catholic_Church_in_Koma%C5%84cza
                                          > > > MA
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > > Debbie,
                                          > > > > > Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                                          > > > > > considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area)
                                          > > later
                                          > > > > > joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think they
                                          > > > > > considered themselves Ukrainian?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the
                                          > > best
                                          > > > > option available.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > bye
                                          > > > > P
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > > I suppose some of that confusion
                                          > > > > > contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure of
                                          > > > > > what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                                          > > > > > Thanks again,
                                          > > > > > MA
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >> Mary Ann,
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below.
                                          > > Though
                                          > > > > >> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly
                                          > > with a
                                          > > > > >> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland,
                                          > > there are
                                          > > > > >> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who
                                          > > believe
                                          > > > > >> they are Ukrainian.
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                                          > > > > >> translation.
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko community
                                          > > > > >> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                                          > > > > >> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                                          > > > > >> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                                          > > > > >> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could
                                          > > have
                                          > > > > >> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by
                                          > > L~emkos.
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old.
                                          > > woj.,
                                          > > > > >> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they
                                          > > returned)
                                          > > > > >> in this area.
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that
                                          > > involved
                                          > > > > >> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >> Debbie
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >> Mary Ann wrote:
                                          > > > > >>> Debbie,
                                          > > > > >>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"!
                                          > > Being
                                          > > > > >> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                                          > > > > >> have been something!
                                          > > > > >>>
                                          > > > > >>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                                          > > > > >> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                                          > > > > >> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is
                                          > > alive
                                          > > > > >> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                                          > > > > >> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)".
                                          > > This
                                          > > > > >> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I
                                          > > surmised)
                                          > > > > >> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                                          > > > > >> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever
                                          > > you get a
                                          > > > > >> chance to look at it.
                                          > > > > >>>
                                          > > > > >>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                                          > > > > >>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                                          > > > > >>>
                                          > > > > >>>
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >>
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • Justin
                                          MaryAnn, Some of the churches in the cities, where there are large immigrant populations, still serve the liturgy in Ukrainian/Slavonic/Russian. Most of the
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Oct 24, 2011
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                                            MaryAnn,

                                            Some of the churches in the cities, where there are large immigrant populations, still serve the liturgy in Ukrainian/Slavonic/Russian.

                                            Most of the priests I've talked to, however, agree that it is far more important for people to comprehend the liturgy than to keep tradition for tradition's sake. Hence the change to English. One Russian Orthodox priest in Philadelphia told me that when asked if his church had Russian classes, he replied, "No, I'd rather spend my time teaching the Gospel than a language." (But there are some churches who still do have language classes.)

                                            I suppose if you had a whole bunch of people who knew the old language and asked for it, you could have liturgy served in that language.

                                            Justin

                                            --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, MaryAnn Bensinger <bensings@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Gloria,
                                            > Thank you for clearing that up...it does make me feel as tho we're
                                            > losing our identity one piece at a time. Sad when I remember the
                                            > churches of yesteryear with the singing in our respective grandparents'
                                            > languages...but then I'm getting old...LOL.
                                            > MaryAnn
                                            >
                                            > Walt/Gloria Elston wrote:
                                            > > Mary Ann, My family's home church in Plymouth PA , SS Peter & Paul
                                            > > Ukrainian Catholic Church, moved into a new structure about 10 yrs ago and
                                            > > the crosses atop the domes do not have the crossbar. I believe it is a
                                            > > continuation of the Latinization of the Greek Catholic churches.
                                            > >
                                            > > Gloria
                                            > >
                                            > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:50 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger
                                            > > <bensings@...>wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >> **
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Justin,
                                            > >> According to the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Church online site
                                            > >> (http://www.stnicholascenter.org/galleries/gazetteer/443/6/) :
                                            > >>
                                            > >> *Opportunity for work in steel mills and mines brought people here as
                                            > >> part of the Great Slavic Migration of 1880--1915. The first Greek
                                            > >> Catholic church in Minersville, St. George, was established in 1896. A
                                            > >> new St George was built in 1913, though it was destroyed by fire in
                                            > >> 1919. In 1916, prior to the fire, the original St. George's became St.
                                            > >> Nicholas Greek Catholic Uniate Church. After the fire a new St. Nicholas
                                            > >> church was built in 1937 on the site.
                                            > >>
                                            > >> *I'm seeing there is only one "cross bar" on their cross...am I to
                                            > >> assume they are Roman Catholic? The Sts. Peter and Paul Byzantine
                                            > >> Church on 4th street was also part of St George Greek Catholic Church at
                                            > >> one time (as was St. Nicholas) so it becomes very confusing to me.
                                            > >> MaryAnn
                                            > >>
                                            > >> Justin wrote:
                                            > >>
                                            > >>> MaryAnn,
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>> Was the Ukrainian Church in Minersville a Ukrainian Greek Catholic
                                            > >>> Church or a Ukrainian Orthodox Church?
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>> Justin
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>> --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com
                                            > >>> <mailto:bukowsko_triangle%40yahoogroups.com>, MaryAnn Bensinger
                                            > >>> <bensings@> wrote:
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>> Philip,
                                            > >>>> I remember that in Minersville, PA the Ukrainian church my grandmother
                                            > >>>> attended was a few blocks from the Greek Catholic church which was my
                                            > >>>> grandmother's choice back in Dudynce. Perhaps it was a choice of which
                                            > >>>> was closer to walk to at that time.
                                            > >>>> If I recall correctly, after /Akcja Wis?a /my grandmother's Greek
                                            > >>>> Catholic church in Dudynce was dismantled by the villagers of Komancza
                                            > >>>> and taken to Komancza where it was set up on top of their "meeting
                                            > >>>> house" as the top floor. I remember reading that during the communist
                                            > >>>> era the people of Komancza weren't allowed to erect a church, just a
                                            > >>>> "meeting house" so I suppose this was an act of defiance? In any case
                                            > >>>> my grandmother's Greek Catholic church (from Dudynce) as is now appears
                                            > >>>> in Komancza can be seen at
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Greek_Catholic_Church_in_Koma%C5%84cza
                                            > >>
                                            > >>>> MA
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>> Philip Semanchuk wrote:
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>>> On Oct 18, 2011, at 11:03 AM, MaryAnn Bensinger wrote:
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>>>> Debbie,
                                            > >>>>>> Thanks for looking at the page. My mother's family (from Ukraine)
                                            > >>>>>> considered themselves Rusyns and my father's family (Sanok area)
                                            > >>>>>>
                                            > >>> later
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>> joined the Ukrainian church in Pennsylvania leading me to think
                                            > >>>>>>
                                            > >> they
                                            > >>
                                            > >>>>>> considered themselves Ukrainian?
                                            > >>>>>>
                                            > >>>>> A Ukrainian church might not have been their preference, just the
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>> best
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>> option available.
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>>> bye
                                            > >>>>> P
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>>>> I suppose some of that confusion
                                            > >>>>>> contributed to my grandmother's statement that she never was sure
                                            > >>>>>>
                                            > >> of
                                            > >>
                                            > >>>>>> what country she was in until they raised the flag..LOL.
                                            > >>>>>> Thanks again,
                                            > >>>>>> MA
                                            > >>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>> Debbie Greenlee wrote:
                                            > >>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>> Mary Ann,
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>> I've finally had the time to look at the page you cites below.
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> Though
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> I can't make-out the map, the reading was interesting - clearly
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> with a
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> Ukrainian bent. One thing is certain, even today in Poland,
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> there are
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> L~emkos who believe they are Rusyn and there are L~emkos who
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> believe
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> they are Ukrainian.
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>> The article is a little confusing but I think that is due to the
                                            > >>>>>>> translation.
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>> Re: "Reinfuss . . . He further determines a compact Boiko
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >> community
                                            > >>
                                            > >>>>>>> made up of eight villages (e.g., Kulaszne, Wysoczany, Polonna
                                            > >>>>>>> (Plonna), Karlikow, Przybyszow, Kamjani (Kamienne), Petrowa Wolja
                                            > >>>>>>> (Wola Piotrowa), Tokarnia)."
                                            > >>>>>>> I've never heard this before. While I suppose some Bojkos could
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> have
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> lived in these villages, they were _certainly_ inhabited by
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> L~emkos.
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> As for L~emko villages being as far west as the Nowy Sa~cz old.
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> woj.,
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> this is correct. Even today there are L~emkos living (they
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> returned)
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> in this area.
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>> This article and my trip reminded me of the DNA project that
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> involved
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> L~emkos. I can't remember the results though.
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>> Debbie
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>> Mary Ann wrote:
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>>> Debbie,
                                            > >>>>>>>> While reading your last input all I could think of was "WOW"!
                                            > >>>>>>>>
                                            > >>> Being
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> recognized in another country while trudging the wilds must really
                                            > >>>>>>> have been something!
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>>> I came across a website via another group (Rusyns) that might
                                            > >>>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>> interest you (if/when you get a minute....LOL). It's in English at
                                            > >>>>>>> http://www.day.kiev.ua/216361 and is entitled Lemkivshchyna is
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> alive
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> (a newspaper article from Ukraine). There is a map there showing
                                            > >>>>>>> "historical Lemko territories (allowing for modern frontiers)".
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> This
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> map shows the Lemko's north as far as Sanok/Canok (which I
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> surmised)
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> but it shows them WAYYY farther to the west in Poland than I ever
                                            > >>>>>>> knew! I'd be interested in your opinion of this map whenever
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>> you get a
                                            > >>>
                                            > >>>>>>> chance to look at it.
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>>> Thanks, and keep up the great work!
                                            > >>>>>>>> MaryAnn Maciejowska-Bensinger
                                            > >>>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>>
                                            > >>>>>
                                            > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>>
                                            > >>>
                                            > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >>
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ------------------------------------
                                            > >
                                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • Philip Semanchuk
                                            ... [much interesting stuff snipped...] ... Hi Justin, Thanks for a very interesting & informative post. I have heard the White Croats thing before, and I
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Oct 25, 2011
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                                              On Oct 24, 2011, at 8:57 PM, Justin wrote:

                                              > According to what I've found, it appears that the original church in Minersville was St. George. This was a Greek Catholic Church but in the 1920s it became a Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Those who wished to remain Greek Catholic started St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
                                              >
                                              > The history behind this is very lengthy,

                                              [much interesting stuff snipped...]


                                              > It is thought that the groups we know as the Lemkos, Boykos, and Hutsuls, are the descendants of perhaps an original group of Rus' highland dwellers who were there since the time of Volodymyr and before, sometimes called White Croats, and who were mixed in with groups who came up from Wallachia/Romania, groups who came east from what is now Ukraine, as well as possibly groups who came down from what is now Belarus, "beyond the Pripyat' marshes." There was certainly also Tatar genetic contribution due to their waves of conquest and settlement. DNA testing may eventually support some of these theories.

                                              Hi Justin,
                                              Thanks for a very interesting & informative post.

                                              I have heard the "White Croats" thing before, and I was wondering if you knew anything more about it. One question that comes to mind is whether or not these people were actually thought to have come from Croatia, or if the name "Croats" was applied to a larger group of people and the name eventually became limited to the modern country. Any thoughts?

                                              Thanks
                                              Philip
                                            • Justin
                                              Philip, I don t know much about the White Croats, and I don t think many others really do, either. I d suspect that your second hypothesis (below) about them
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Nov 2, 2011
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                                                Philip,

                                                I don't know much about the White Croats, and I don't think many others really do, either. I'd suspect that your second hypothesis (below) about them is nearer to the truth.

                                                What was interesting to me is that, apparently according to a 1911 census report, a number of people in the 19th century described themselves as White Croats upon immigration to America, from around the Krakow region. I haven't seen this Senate report. Maybe someone else can look for it.
                                                See here:
                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#cite_note-US_Senate-3

                                                What did they know? Was this folk legend passed down to them? Or what?

                                                Another interesting aspect of this is the extent of "Greater Moravia" during the 9th and 10th centuries. Some people postulate that it extended as far as Kyivan Rus and use this as the justification for their argument that SS. Cyril & Methodius directly evangelized the region of the Rus lands in the 9th century:
                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Moravia

                                                Others say that SS. Cyril & Methodius (who were working in the 800s) evangelized Greater Moravia nearer what is now the Czech Republic, and maybe Bulgaria (my recollection is unclear), which was definitely Christian by the 9th and 10th century but which vacillated between the Eastern and Western branches of the Church (still unified then). Rus' became Christian after St. Volodymyr the Great's conversion in 988.

                                                (There is even a dispute over whether SS. Cyril and Methodius were propagating the Catholic or the Orthodox faith, because they taught eastern Christianity but seemed to report to Rome and, certainly, received Rome's blessing for their missions. To me, at least, this is somewhat a moot point because the churches, although culturally different by this time, were not yet in formal schism, so that these missionaries interacted with Rome doesn't push them solidly into the Catholic or Orthodox camps. Both could rightly claim these "equals to the Apostles.")

                                                Trying to sort out the myth and legend in the whole White Croatia/Greater Moravia saga is something I know very little about. I've barely read on the subject, although I know that there is dispute about whether Greater Moravia was really that big, and whether the White Croats were really up that far, or just where they were. I think we're now getting into questions that maybe archaelogy and genetics can answer, more so than spotty written sources.

                                                Some of the terminology of this whole White Croats, Red Russians, etc., can be figured out when we realize that for some of those peoples, directions were indicated by colors. See here:
                                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_direction

                                                Scroll down for interesting maps of color variations.

                                                As I said, I know very little about this, probably just enough to muddy the waters. Ha ha. But I'd like to learn more.

                                                Justin

                                                --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Philip Semanchuk <philip@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > On Oct 24, 2011, at 8:57 PM, Justin wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > According to what I've found, it appears that the original church in Minersville was St. George. This was a Greek Catholic Church but in the 1920s it became a Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Those who wished to remain Greek Catholic started St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
                                                > >
                                                > > The history behind this is very lengthy,
                                                >
                                                > [much interesting stuff snipped...]
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > > It is thought that the groups we know as the Lemkos, Boykos, and Hutsuls, are the descendants of perhaps an original group of Rus' highland dwellers who were there since the time of Volodymyr and before, sometimes called White Croats, and who were mixed in with groups who came up from Wallachia/Romania, groups who came east from what is now Ukraine, as well as possibly groups who came down from what is now Belarus, "beyond the Pripyat' marshes." There was certainly also Tatar genetic contribution due to their waves of conquest and settlement. DNA testing may eventually support some of these theories.
                                                >
                                                > Hi Justin,
                                                > Thanks for a very interesting & informative post.
                                                >
                                                > I have heard the "White Croats" thing before, and I was wondering if you knew anything more about it. One question that comes to mind is whether or not these people were actually thought to have come from Croatia, or if the name "Croats" was applied to a larger group of people and the name eventually became limited to the modern country. Any thoughts?
                                                >
                                                > Thanks
                                                > Philip
                                                >
                                              • Justin
                                                I should add that, even if our people are descended from the White Croats (whoever they were), I don t believe that they were exclusively so. These White
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Nov 2, 2011
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                                                  I should add that, even if our people are descended from the White Croats (whoever they were), I don't believe that they were exclusively so. These White Croats may have been the first folks on the block, so to speak, but the diversity of genetic haplogroups among the Carpathian populations speak to multiple ancestral heritages. This is explained by the Mongol invasions, settlers coming west from Kyivan Rus', Polish and German intermarriage as they were colonized, possible groups coming up from Wallachia/Romania, as well as a group of Belarusian-type folks who were supposed to have come in the 16th or 17th centuries from "beyond the Prypiat' marshes" to the general region.

                                                  Prypiat, by the way, is the name of the abandoned city in that region which is nearest to the Chornobyl site.

                                                  To me, it is fascinating.

                                                  Justin

                                                  --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, "Justin" <JKHouser84@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Philip,
                                                  >
                                                  > I don't know much about the White Croats, and I don't think many others really do, either. I'd suspect that your second hypothesis (below) about them is nearer to the truth.
                                                  >
                                                  > What was interesting to me is that, apparently according to a 1911 census report, a number of people in the 19th century described themselves as White Croats upon immigration to America, from around the Krakow region. I haven't seen this Senate report. Maybe someone else can look for it.
                                                  > See here:
                                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#cite_note-US_Senate-3
                                                  >
                                                  > What did they know? Was this folk legend passed down to them? Or what?
                                                  >
                                                  > Another interesting aspect of this is the extent of "Greater Moravia" during the 9th and 10th centuries. Some people postulate that it extended as far as Kyivan Rus and use this as the justification for their argument that SS. Cyril & Methodius directly evangelized the region of the Rus lands in the 9th century:
                                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Moravia
                                                  >
                                                  > Others say that SS. Cyril & Methodius (who were working in the 800s) evangelized Greater Moravia nearer what is now the Czech Republic, and maybe Bulgaria (my recollection is unclear), which was definitely Christian by the 9th and 10th century but which vacillated between the Eastern and Western branches of the Church (still unified then). Rus' became Christian after St. Volodymyr the Great's conversion in 988.
                                                  >
                                                  > (There is even a dispute over whether SS. Cyril and Methodius were propagating the Catholic or the Orthodox faith, because they taught eastern Christianity but seemed to report to Rome and, certainly, received Rome's blessing for their missions. To me, at least, this is somewhat a moot point because the churches, although culturally different by this time, were not yet in formal schism, so that these missionaries interacted with Rome doesn't push them solidly into the Catholic or Orthodox camps. Both could rightly claim these "equals to the Apostles.")
                                                  >
                                                  > Trying to sort out the myth and legend in the whole White Croatia/Greater Moravia saga is something I know very little about. I've barely read on the subject, although I know that there is dispute about whether Greater Moravia was really that big, and whether the White Croats were really up that far, or just where they were. I think we're now getting into questions that maybe archaelogy and genetics can answer, more so than spotty written sources.
                                                  >
                                                  > Some of the terminology of this whole White Croats, Red Russians, etc., can be figured out when we realize that for some of those peoples, directions were indicated by colors. See here:
                                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_direction
                                                  >
                                                  > Scroll down for interesting maps of color variations.
                                                  >
                                                  > As I said, I know very little about this, probably just enough to muddy the waters. Ha ha. But I'd like to learn more.
                                                  >
                                                  > Justin
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Philip Semanchuk <philip@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 8:57 PM, Justin wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > According to what I've found, it appears that the original church in Minersville was St. George. This was a Greek Catholic Church but in the 1920s it became a Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Those who wished to remain Greek Catholic started St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > The history behind this is very lengthy,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > [much interesting stuff snipped...]
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > It is thought that the groups we know as the Lemkos, Boykos, and Hutsuls, are the descendants of perhaps an original group of Rus' highland dwellers who were there since the time of Volodymyr and before, sometimes called White Croats, and who were mixed in with groups who came up from Wallachia/Romania, groups who came east from what is now Ukraine, as well as possibly groups who came down from what is now Belarus, "beyond the Pripyat' marshes." There was certainly also Tatar genetic contribution due to their waves of conquest and settlement. DNA testing may eventually support some of these theories.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hi Justin,
                                                  > > Thanks for a very interesting & informative post.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I have heard the "White Croats" thing before, and I was wondering if you knew anything more about it. One question that comes to mind is whether or not these people were actually thought to have come from Croatia, or if the name "Croats" was applied to a larger group of people and the name eventually became limited to the modern country. Any thoughts?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Thanks
                                                  > > Philip
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • Philip Semanchuk
                                                  ... I agree. And don t forget the occasional Swedish invader wandering from the north! Cheers P
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Nov 3, 2011
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                                                    On Nov 2, 2011, at 8:37 AM, Justin wrote:

                                                    > I should add that, even if our people are descended from the White Croats (whoever they were), I don't believe that they were exclusively so. These White Croats may have been the first folks on the block, so to speak, but the diversity of genetic haplogroups among the Carpathian populations speak to multiple ancestral heritages. This is explained by the Mongol invasions, settlers coming west from Kyivan Rus', Polish and German intermarriage as they were colonized, possible groups coming up from Wallachia/Romania, as well as a group of Belarusian-type folks who were supposed to have come in the 16th or 17th centuries from "beyond the Prypiat' marshes" to the general region.

                                                    I agree. And don't forget the occasional Swedish invader wandering from the north!

                                                    Cheers
                                                    P


                                                    >
                                                    > Prypiat, by the way, is the name of the abandoned city in that region which is nearest to the Chornobyl site.
                                                    >
                                                    > To me, it is fascinating.
                                                    >
                                                    > Justin
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, "Justin" <JKHouser84@...> wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Philip,
                                                    >>
                                                    >> I don't know much about the White Croats, and I don't think many others really do, either. I'd suspect that your second hypothesis (below) about them is nearer to the truth.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> What was interesting to me is that, apparently according to a 1911 census report, a number of people in the 19th century described themselves as White Croats upon immigration to America, from around the Krakow region. I haven't seen this Senate report. Maybe someone else can look for it.
                                                    >> See here:
                                                    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats#cite_note-US_Senate-3
                                                    >>
                                                    >> What did they know? Was this folk legend passed down to them? Or what?
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Another interesting aspect of this is the extent of "Greater Moravia" during the 9th and 10th centuries. Some people postulate that it extended as far as Kyivan Rus and use this as the justification for their argument that SS. Cyril & Methodius directly evangelized the region of the Rus lands in the 9th century:
                                                    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Moravia
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Others say that SS. Cyril & Methodius (who were working in the 800s) evangelized Greater Moravia nearer what is now the Czech Republic, and maybe Bulgaria (my recollection is unclear), which was definitely Christian by the 9th and 10th century but which vacillated between the Eastern and Western branches of the Church (still unified then). Rus' became Christian after St. Volodymyr the Great's conversion in 988.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> (There is even a dispute over whether SS. Cyril and Methodius were propagating the Catholic or the Orthodox faith, because they taught eastern Christianity but seemed to report to Rome and, certainly, received Rome's blessing for their missions. To me, at least, this is somewhat a moot point because the churches, although culturally different by this time, were not yet in formal schism, so that these missionaries interacted with Rome doesn't push them solidly into the Catholic or Orthodox camps. Both could rightly claim these "equals to the Apostles.")
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Trying to sort out the myth and legend in the whole White Croatia/Greater Moravia saga is something I know very little about. I've barely read on the subject, although I know that there is dispute about whether Greater Moravia was really that big, and whether the White Croats were really up that far, or just where they were. I think we're now getting into questions that maybe archaelogy and genetics can answer, more so than spotty written sources.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Some of the terminology of this whole White Croats, Red Russians, etc., can be figured out when we realize that for some of those peoples, directions were indicated by colors. See here:
                                                    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinal_direction
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Scroll down for interesting maps of color variations.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> As I said, I know very little about this, probably just enough to muddy the waters. Ha ha. But I'd like to learn more.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Justin
                                                    >>
                                                    >> --- In bukowsko_triangle@yahoogroups.com, Philip Semanchuk <philip@> wrote:
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>> On Oct 24, 2011, at 8:57 PM, Justin wrote:
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>> According to what I've found, it appears that the original church in Minersville was St. George. This was a Greek Catholic Church but in the 1920s it became a Ukrainian Orthodox Church. Those who wished to remain Greek Catholic started St. Nicholas Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
                                                    >>>>
                                                    >>>> The history behind this is very lengthy,
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>> [much interesting stuff snipped...]
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>>> It is thought that the groups we know as the Lemkos, Boykos, and Hutsuls, are the descendants of perhaps an original group of Rus' highland dwellers who were there since the time of Volodymyr and before, sometimes called White Croats, and who were mixed in with groups who came up from Wallachia/Romania, groups who came east from what is now Ukraine, as well as possibly groups who came down from what is now Belarus, "beyond the Pripyat' marshes." There was certainly also Tatar genetic contribution due to their waves of conquest and settlement. DNA testing may eventually support some of these theories.
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>> Hi Justin,
                                                    >>> Thanks for a very interesting & informative post.
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>> I have heard the "White Croats" thing before, and I was wondering if you knew anything more about it. One question that comes to mind is whether or not these people were actually thought to have come from Croatia, or if the name "Croats" was applied to a larger group of people and the name eventually became limited to the modern country. Any thoughts?
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>> Thanks
                                                    >>> Philip
                                                    >>>
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >
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