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RE: [buildcheapeeg] Re: Software requirements

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  • dev
    I have just joined this group and still getting an overview of everything that is trying to be done. I am relatively new to eeg, but I have been studying it
    Message 1 of 18 , Jul 12, 2001
      I have just joined this group and still getting an overview of everything
      that is trying to be done. I am relatively new to eeg, but I have been
      studying it for a while now to build a good computer brain interface. I have
      over 12 years experience in Computers, a wide range of everything, graphics,
      3d modeling, troubleshooting, electronics, and of various different
      platforms. So here is my 2 cents for now.
      Software needs to be Windows 2000 or WindowsXP based, all DOS and windows
      9x/ME is obsolete already. As for linux, I love it, but unless you have a
      competent programmer in C/C++ as well as GTK or any of the 30 GUI language
      for X-Windows, you will be wasting a lot of time. If you want to go that
      route, make sure you use C/C++ so it can be easily ported back and forth.
      And how do you plan on analyzing the data? Or are you just displaying it
      with a GUI first? I have seen some that feed 16 inputs from 32 electrodes
      into a Back prop Neural Network that can be trained for certain thought
      patterns.

      -- Jeff

      > 2) What software platforms

      I'd say just make it run on Win98/ME/2000 and that'll handle
      95% of the current desires. Make it run on Linux in addition,
      and you'll be at the 99% level likely for at least 10 years.

      > 3) What is the precision needed? sampling rates?

      Professional stuff starts at 12 bits-per-sample, two channels,
      256 samples-per-second (on each). The analog/digital stuff in
      the proposed circuits here seem to target 10 bits-per-sample.
      That's probably fine, since a couple of actual low-end clinical
      systems just use 8 bits-per-sample, though that's pushing it.
      The 256 samples-per-second seems to be acceptable, as the highest
      frequency most people ever use is 42Hz, and 256/sec seems to be
      the standard export format. Four channels is probably all that
      could ever be asked for for NFB, though QEEG'ers might want 32.
      I'd settle for two. Even handling two sets of electrodes starts
      not being fun.

      > 4) An output API

      There need to be two windows that provide feedback. One for
      the subject, one for the operator. Even for non-clinical use,
      and for subect-is-the-operator, I'd say this is the case. The
      subject screen has some kind of games/animation -- with sound.
      This should be handled via plug-in modules to allow flexibility,
      as "games" covers a lot. The operator screen should also be via
      plug-ins, as handling operator info has a lot of variability,
      depending, at least, on how many channels are implemented. One
      really useful operator screen is a "bilateral frequency mirror"
      as the operator view for a two-channel system. The Windows
      systems I specified can automatically use multiple display-cards,
      so the two windows can easily be separated onto two monitors.
      Everything beyond this is gravy.


      - Lenny Gray -



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    • Joel Eriksson
      ... I would be surprised if anyone have even considered any other language than C/C++.. :-) Hmm, it may be true that DOS and Windows 9x/ME is obsolete now and
      Message 2 of 18 , Jul 12, 2001
        On Thu, Jul 12, 2001 at 02:45:10PM -0400, dev wrote:
        > Software needs to be Windows 2000 or WindowsXP based, all DOS and windows
        > 9x/ME is obsolete already. As for linux, I love it, but unless you have a
        > competent programmer in C/C++ as well as GTK or any of the 30 GUI language
        > for X-Windows, you will be wasting a lot of time. If you want to go that
        > route, make sure you use C/C++ so it can be easily ported back and forth.

        I would be surprised if anyone have even considered any other language than
        C/C++.. :-) Hmm, it may be true that DOS and Windows 9x/ME is obsolete now
        and that new software for MS-users should be for Windows 2000 or Windows XP,
        but that says more about MS than anything else .. Just make sure the code is
        POSIX- and ANSI C compatible and use a portable GUI library like SDL (libsdl.org)
        for applications with visual interfaces.

        > And how do you plan on analyzing the data? Or are you just displaying it
        > with a GUI first? I have seen some that feed 16 inputs from 32 electrodes
        > into a Back prop Neural Network that can be trained for certain thought
        > patterns.

        I think the base software should be CLI based, then GUI:s could just be
        frontends and it would be easy for knowledgable users to build their own
        software (CLI or GUI) to analyze the data and do whatever with it.

        --
        Joel Eriksson
      • yaniv_vi@yahoo.com
        hi it s really cool that your all starting to work seriously on specs!!! i have one comment : when you think about this software , i think it should be fit to
        Message 3 of 18 , Jul 12, 2001
          hi
          it's really cool that your all starting to work seriously on specs!!!

          i have one comment :
          when you think about this software , i think it should be fit to
          next version of cheapeeg.
          my view of the next versions are (just ideas)
          1. very low cost version , that the input to pc will come from
          soundblaster input .
          2. a neurofeedback+biofeedback device . i read some abstarct that
          combining nfb and bfb is much faster way to learn self control on
          both . i don't know exactly how it would be implemented ,
          but i think minimum 8 channels , with sampling rate that would
          make emg (muscle) feedback available .
          i'll post some message to our nfb pros and ask .
          does it make it alot more complicated ? why ?

          so if the sw could fit top this it would be much better .
          also i thin it should be build in such a way the all or at least
          most companies with nfb /bfb device could work with it by just
          writing the sw driver .

          also one little idea : is there as possible interface to some kind of
          math language like matlab / some grapick programming language , etc ?
          because it would be much easier for research and trying all sort
          of things , like fuzzy logic or many others , and after some new idea
          shown it's worth - then some programmer could code it .
          this is a vey good way to promote innovation .
          the only problm that might be is real time . how do you sole such
          problem ?


          sincerly yaniv vilnai .
          --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Buttlar <mb981282@m...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi !
          >
          > Great that you start getting together the specifications :)
          >
          > >As a project leader in several previous development efforts I
          begin
          > >by asking questions revolving around previous design decisions
          > >especially about hardware. Although my expertise is not in
          interface
          > >APIs I can ask a few pertinent questions.
          > >
          > >1) I understand by reading many of the posts that the hardware
          will
          > >contain the A/D converters and an RS-232 serial port is the
          expected
          > >output method. If I am wrong, please correct me. Why is this
          method
          > >chosen? Have you considered a USB port? parallel port? Have you
          > >considered using a well designed sound card to perform the A/D
          > >conversion? What were the critical design constrains that lead to
          > >this choice? Answers to these questions can help with the
          definition
          > >of requirements for the software interface API.
          >
          > RS232 is available on most systems. It´s fast enough for our
          purpose, easy
          > to design the hardware and the software,
          > easy to isolate (at least easier then USB), easy to debug, cheap.
          Soundcard
          > was considered but it has a lot of disadvantages regarding
          > optical, linear isolation and an built-in bandwith limit for low
          frequency
          > signals. Parallel port would be possible but it doesn´t give
          advantage over
          > the serial port except higher bandwith for data (but we don´t need
          higher
          > bandwith). We also considered IrDA.
          > This would be a great alternative to RS232 because it has inherent
          > isolation safety which would maybe decrease the amount of safety
          testing
          > required.
          > The problem is that the implementation of the complete IrDA software
          > architecture (IrCOMM layer) is quite difficult on a microcontroller
          > and there´s no GPL/open source code available. The question is if
          there´s
          > some direct access to the raw data received by the host PC
          > so that it would be possible to develop one´s own protocol. If this
          is
          > possible, IrDA would be a great choice. Maybe you could check that
          out
          > somehow ? The implementation of the hardware IrDA specifications is
          quite
          > easy.
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > >2) What software platforms and OSs does the CheapEEG software need
          to
          > >support? This will require a variety of input for each additional
          > >configuration needed.
          >
          > I´d like Linux and Windows support. It would be great if we could
          develop
          > the software using gcc and then compile it
          > for windows and linux without changing much of the code.
          >
          >
          > >Is there any on-board memory or CPU control
          > >expectations for the hardware sensing unit?
          >
          >
          > The cheapeeg can also receive commands. Once sampling is started,
          the
          > cheapeeg will send data on it´s own without any
          > special commands/timing or whatever needed.
          >
          >
          > >
          > >3) What is the precision needed? sampling rates? quantity of data
          > >expected? timing constraints?
          >
          > It would be great if the software would process at least 16 bit
          data so
          > that we can upgrade the cheapeeg later without
          > rewriting the software. Sampling frequency <=256Hz, 2-4 channels
          >
          >
          > >
          > >4) For neurofeedback, an output API will be needed in addition to
          an
          > >input API. What are the expected output mechanisms? visual?
          audible
          > >or EM signal? What devices are expected to be used for
          entrainment?
          > >Computer screen? headphones? Light glasses? Mag-stim headset?
          > >combination of above?
          >
          >
          > Probably a combination of the above. Maybe we could use fuzzy-logic
          to
          > trigger the feedback devices ?
          > I think that would be a great technique to use for triggering only
          when
          > multiple requirements are fulfilled.
          > Did anybody ever use fuzzy logic for neurofeedback ? I´d like to
          experiment
          > with that.
          >
          >
          > >
          > >5) What kind of user interface is expected to operate the unit?
          DOS
          > >or LINUX textbased? control only? Windows XX, BEOS or LINUX GUI
          with
          > >graphical display and sophisticated recording, management and
          control?
          >
          > X-Windows/Linux and Windows. Graphical display would be desirable.
          >
          > Moritz
        • yaniv_vi@yahoo.com
          hi it s really cool that your all starting to work seriously on specs!!! i have one comment : when you think about this software , i think it should be fit to
          Message 4 of 18 , Jul 12, 2001
            hi
            it's really cool that your all starting to work seriously on specs!!!

            i have one comment :
            when you think about this software , i think it should be fit to
            next version of cheapeeg.
            my view of the next versions are (just ideas)
            1. very low cost version , that the input to pc will come from
            soundblaster input .
            2. a neurofeedback+biofeedback device . i read some abstarct that
            combining nfb and bfb is much faster way to learn self control on
            both . i don't know exactly how it would be implemented ,
            but i think minimum 8 channels , with sampling rate that would
            make emg (muscle) feedback available .
            i'll post some message to our nfb pros and ask .
            does it make it alot more complicated ? why ?

            so if the sw could fit top this it would be much better .
            also i thin it should be build in such a way the all or at least
            most companies with nfb /bfb device could work with it by just
            writing the sw driver .

            also one little idea : is there as possible interface to some kind of
            math language like matlab / some grapick programming language , etc ?
            because it would be much easier for research and trying all sort
            of things , like fuzzy logic or many others , and after some new idea
            shown it's worth - then some programmer could code it .
            maybe also find some tool/language that a nfb practicioner could use
            very easily and have the option to connect it to the sw.
            this is a very good way to promote innovation .
            the only problm that might be is real time . how do you sole such
            problem ?


            sincerly yaniv vilnai .
            --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Buttlar <mb981282@m...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi !
            >
            > Great that you start getting together the specifications :)
            >
            > >As a project leader in several previous development efforts I
            begin
            > >by asking questions revolving around previous design decisions
            > >especially about hardware. Although my expertise is not in
            interface
            > >APIs I can ask a few pertinent questions.
            > >
            > >1) I understand by reading many of the posts that the hardware
            will
            > >contain the A/D converters and an RS-232 serial port is the
            expected
            > >output method. If I am wrong, please correct me. Why is this
            method
            > >chosen? Have you considered a USB port? parallel port? Have you
            > >considered using a well designed sound card to perform the A/D
            > >conversion? What were the critical design constrains that lead to
            > >this choice? Answers to these questions can help with the
            definition
            > >of requirements for the software interface API.
            >
            > RS232 is available on most systems. It´s fast enough for our
            purpose, easy
            > to design the hardware and the software,
            > easy to isolate (at least easier then USB), easy to debug, cheap.
            Soundcard
            > was considered but it has a lot of disadvantages regarding
            > optical, linear isolation and an built-in bandwith limit for low
            frequency
            > signals. Parallel port would be possible but it doesn´t give
            advantage over
            > the serial port except higher bandwith for data (but we don´t need
            higher
            > bandwith). We also considered IrDA.
            > This would be a great alternative to RS232 because it has inherent
            > isolation safety which would maybe decrease the amount of safety
            testing
            > required.
            > The problem is that the implementation of the complete IrDA software
            > architecture (IrCOMM layer) is quite difficult on a microcontroller
            > and there´s no GPL/open source code available. The question is if
            there´s
            > some direct access to the raw data received by the host PC
            > so that it would be possible to develop one´s own protocol. If this
            is
            > possible, IrDA would be a great choice. Maybe you could check that
            out
            > somehow ? The implementation of the hardware IrDA specifications is
            quite
            > easy.
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            > >2) What software platforms and OSs does the CheapEEG software need
            to
            > >support? This will require a variety of input for each additional
            > >configuration needed.
            >
            > I´d like Linux and Windows support. It would be great if we could
            develop
            > the software using gcc and then compile it
            > for windows and linux without changing much of the code.
            >
            >
            > >Is there any on-board memory or CPU control
            > >expectations for the hardware sensing unit?
            >
            >
            > The cheapeeg can also receive commands. Once sampling is started,
            the
            > cheapeeg will send data on it´s own without any
            > special commands/timing or whatever needed.
            >
            >
            > >
            > >3) What is the precision needed? sampling rates? quantity of data
            > >expected? timing constraints?
            >
            > It would be great if the software would process at least 16 bit
            data so
            > that we can upgrade the cheapeeg later without
            > rewriting the software. Sampling frequency <=256Hz, 2-4 channels
            >
            >
            > >
            > >4) For neurofeedback, an output API will be needed in addition to
            an
            > >input API. What are the expected output mechanisms? visual?
            audible
            > >or EM signal? What devices are expected to be used for
            entrainment?
            > >Computer screen? headphones? Light glasses? Mag-stim headset?
            > >combination of above?
            >
            >
            > Probably a combination of the above. Maybe we could use fuzzy-logic
            to
            > trigger the feedback devices ?
            > I think that would be a great technique to use for triggering only
            when
            > multiple requirements are fulfilled.
            > Did anybody ever use fuzzy logic for neurofeedback ? I´d like to
            experiment
            > with that.
            >
            >
            > >
            > >5) What kind of user interface is expected to operate the unit?
            DOS
            > >or LINUX textbased? control only? Windows XX, BEOS or LINUX GUI
            with
            > >graphical display and sophisticated recording, management and
            control?
            >
            > X-Windows/Linux and Windows. Graphical display would be desirable.
            >
            > Moritz
          • frans
            Hi Yaniv and other members, I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM. *Computer interface including . * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback. * Module 2, ECG *
            Message 5 of 18 , Jul 13, 2001
               
               
              Hi Yaniv and other members,
               
              I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM.
               
              *Computer interface including .
              * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback.
              * Module  2, ECG
              * Module 3, GSR (very effective for anxiety)
              * Module 4, Temperature FB.
              * Module 5, EMG
               
              If one suffers from high blood pressure or anxiety one can choose the best module.
              In such cases one can experience BFB for this is not
              only effective, but also easy to do. NFB is not some-
              thing you can do just like that.
              Also if you read different cases, you would find that
              a combination of NFB/BFB is common use.
               
              For example: a jong man with attention dissorder
              was trained with NFB, but the therapist also found
              some anxiety, therefore using Temp. FB to compleet
              the therapy.
               
              To make NFB accessible for everyone is okay, but
              its also common use that professionals first study BFB.
              I think a good basic foundation in general BFB will
              be best for all non-professionals.
               
              I am aware of the fact that such a design brings a lot
              of problems, sinds- for example- amp-input/design
              depents on what data to process (EEG,EMG).
               
               
              Perhaps EEG, EMG, GSR, TEMP, ECG modules
              each a compleet set/analog part.
              A multi-functional digital interface (without analog part).
              In this case one can buy or build the pc-interface and
              then choos a module, to start with.
               
              Such a system would be accessible for everyone.
              Software design incl. games would be better sinds
              SW-members could concentrate on a specific module,
              become more professional in that area of BFB.
              This is for the benefit of the group.
               
              A this moment everyone would try to build SW for
              only one system. SW for EEG would be much more
              complex for some members who would like to help programming but cannot match up with EEG. A module for only blood pressure or hearbeat (not ECG) is simple
              but would give less experienced programmers a change
              to improve there skills, and also would make those
              active members. Working on different modules would
              then result in lots of SW so as to find the best SW or
              to compare/change/improve designs.
               
              The project then would be accessible for starters
              in HW/SW/microcontroller tech/digital systems...
              All could learn al lot in this case.
              Also the experience with the modules by all members
              - once build in proto- would give all of us practical
              information to improve our overall skills and knowlegde.
               
              Finally, a starters module like GSR would be not so
              expencive and therefore ideal for beginner/student or
              experimenter with low-budget.
               
              So my fellow-members, a modulair system would
              reach more people, poor, rich, student, proffesional,
              HW/SW builders/constructors, potential customers,
              people with special demands (illness, peak performance).............
               
              Thanks..
              Best Regards.
              Frans.
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Friday, July 13, 2001 8:28 AM
              Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: Software requirements

              hi
              it's really cool that your all starting to work seriously on specs!!!

              i have one comment :
              when you think about this software , i think it should be fit  to
              next version of cheapeeg.
              my view of the next versions are (just ideas)
              1. very low cost version , that the input to pc will come from
                 soundblaster input .
              2. a neurofeedback+biofeedback device . i read some abstarct that
                 combining nfb and bfb is much faster way to learn self control on
                 both .  i don't know exactly how it would be implemented ,
                 but i think minimum 8 channels , with sampling rate that would
                 make emg (muscle) feedback available .
                 i'll post some message to our nfb pros and  ask .
                 does it make it alot more complicated ? why ?

              so if the sw could fit top this it would be much better .
              also i thin it should  be build in such a way the all or at least
              most companies with nfb /bfb device could work with it by just
              writing the sw driver .

              also one little idea : is there as possible interface to some kind of
              math language like matlab / some grapick programming language , etc ?
              because it would be much easier for research and trying all sort
              of things , like fuzzy logic or many others , and after some new idea
              shown  it's worth - then some programmer could code it .
              maybe also find some tool/language that a nfb practicioner could use
              very easily and have the  option to connect it to the sw.
              this is a very good way to promote innovation .
              the only problm that might be is real time . how do you sole such
              problem ?


              sincerly yaniv vilnai .
              --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Buttlar <mb981282@m...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi !
              >
              > Great that you start getting together the specifications :)
              >
              > >As a project leader in several previous development efforts I
              begin
              > >by asking questions revolving around previous design decisions
              > >especially about hardware. Although my expertise is not in
              interface
              > >APIs I can ask a few pertinent questions.
              > >
              > >1) I understand by reading many of the posts that the hardware
              will
              > >contain the A/D converters and an RS-232 serial port is the
              expected
              > >output method. If I am wrong, please correct me. Why is this
              method
              > >chosen? Have you considered a USB port? parallel port? Have you
              > >considered using a well designed sound card to perform the A/D
              > >conversion? What were the critical design constrains that lead to
              > >this choice? Answers to these questions can help with the
              definition
              > >of requirements for the software interface API.
              >
              > RS232 is available on most systems. It´s fast enough for our
              purpose, easy
              > to design the hardware and the software,
              > easy to isolate (at least easier then USB), easy to debug, cheap.
              Soundcard
              > was considered but it has a lot of disadvantages regarding
              > optical, linear isolation and an built-in bandwith limit for low
              frequency
              > signals. Parallel port would be possible but it doesn´t give
              advantage over
              > the serial port except higher bandwith for data (but we don´t need
              higher
              > bandwith). We also considered IrDA.
              > This would be a great alternative to RS232 because it has inherent
              > isolation safety which would maybe decrease the amount of safety
              testing
              > required.
              > The problem is that the implementation of the complete IrDA software
              > architecture (IrCOMM layer) is quite difficult on a microcontroller
              > and there´s no GPL/open source code available. The question is if
              there´s
              > some direct access to the raw data received by the host PC
              > so that it would be possible to develop one´s own protocol. If this
              is
              > possible, IrDA would be a great choice. Maybe you could check that
              out
              > somehow ? The implementation of the hardware IrDA specifications is
              quite
              > easy.
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > >2) What software platforms and OSs does the CheapEEG software need
              to
              > >support? This will require a variety of input for each additional
              > >configuration needed.
              >
              > I´d like Linux and Windows support. It would be great if we could
              develop
              > the software using gcc and then compile it
              > for windows and linux without changing much of the code.
              >
              >
              > >Is there any on-board memory or CPU control
              > >expectations for the hardware sensing unit?
              >
              >
              > The cheapeeg can also receive commands. Once sampling is started,
              the
              > cheapeeg will send data on it´s own without any
              > special commands/timing or whatever needed.
              >
              >
              > >
              > >3) What is the precision needed? sampling rates? quantity of data
              > >expected? timing constraints?
              >
              > It would be great if the software would process at least 16 bit
              data so
              > that we can upgrade the cheapeeg later without
              > rewriting the software. Sampling frequency <=256Hz, 2-4 channels
              >
              >
              > >
              > >4) For neurofeedback, an output API will be needed in addition to
              an
              > >input API. What are the expected output mechanisms? visual?
              audible
              > >or EM signal? What devices are expected to be used for
              entrainment?
              > >Computer screen? headphones? Light glasses? Mag-stim headset?
              > >combination of above?
              >
              >
              > Probably a combination of the above. Maybe we could use fuzzy-logic
              to
              > trigger the feedback devices ?
              > I think that would be a great technique to use for triggering only
              when
              > multiple requirements are fulfilled.
              > Did anybody ever use fuzzy logic for neurofeedback ? I´d like to
              experiment
              > with that.
              >
              >
              > >
              > >5) What kind of user interface is expected to operate the unit?
              DOS
              > >or LINUX textbased? control only? Windows XX, BEOS or LINUX GUI
              with
              > >graphical display and sophisticated recording, management and
              control?
              >
              > X-Windows/Linux and Windows. Graphical display would be desirable.
              >
              >  Moritz



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            • peterson@discover-net.net
              ... This is an absolutely fascinating idea. I think most of the biofeedback equipment on the market is grossly overpriced, and if it were more commonly
              Message 6 of 18 , Jul 13, 2001
                --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Yaniv and other members,
                >
                > I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM.
                >
                > *Computer interface including .
                > * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback.
                > * Module 2, ECG
                > * Module 3, GSR (very effective for anxiety)
                > * Module 4, Temperature FB.
                > * Module 5, EMG
                >
                This is an absolutely fascinating idea. I think most of the
                biofeedback equipment on the market is grossly overpriced, and if it
                were more commonly available a whole lot of people would be better
                served. This would by no means reduce the need for therapists, who
                would be able to keep themselves very busy as "coaches." One very
                interesting new area is heart rate variability (based either on
                EKG/ecg or on a finger pulse sensor), which seems to be important in
                reducing the potential for heart attacks, etc. The process of
                learning to increase your heart rate variability apparently involves
                learning to be less angry. I don't really understand the whole
                psychophysiology of it, but there is a website, www.heartmath.com,
                that I think some of us might find interesting to check out.

                Nevertheless, I really hope these side excursions do not distract us
                from accomplishing our main purpose of developing the openEEG system.
                --Jim Peterson
              • yaniv_vi@yahoo.com
                hi 1. about my goal - it was just to design the s.w. with some option that in future it could be used for bfb/nfb . just not to do the same work twice in the
                Message 7 of 18 , Jul 14, 2001
                  hi
                  1. about my goal - it was just to design the s.w. with some option
                  that in future it could be used for bfb/nfb . just not to do the same
                  work twice in the future . i know it delays in some when open source
                  s.w. is ready but , we have some nfb soft and second it's the right
                  way to work .
                  2.about bfb , there's on type of bfb that is very simple to do -
                  hand temperature biofeedback. the tools are cheap and availble
                  - a simple digital thermometer .but still it's not very used
                  technique . why ? can anybody start working on this area ?
                  because to some extent i think the same things that prevent
                  nfb from bein popular , and the same things that prevent thermal
                  bfb from being popular .
                  and i think if we do some serious work on making thermal bfb
                  popular we have a stronger base for making nfb popular .
                  it might be very helpfull to our goal (giving the power of nfb
                  to public) .
                  3. on a personal note , could someone write a serious note on thermal
                  training ? because i have started on this , and i have a few
                  questions , like for example what temp should i achieve ?
                  what techinques can i use to achieve lowe temp ???



                  sincerly yaniv vilani

                  --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                  > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Hi Yaniv and other members,
                  > >
                  > > I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM.
                  > >
                  > > *Computer interface including .
                  > > * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback.
                  > > * Module 2, ECG
                  > > * Module 3, GSR (very effective for anxiety)
                  > > * Module 4, Temperature FB.
                  > > * Module 5, EMG
                  > >
                  > This is an absolutely fascinating idea. I think most of the
                  > biofeedback equipment on the market is grossly overpriced, and if
                  it
                  > were more commonly available a whole lot of people would be better
                  > served. This would by no means reduce the need for therapists, who
                  > would be able to keep themselves very busy as "coaches." One very
                  > interesting new area is heart rate variability (based either on
                  > EKG/ecg or on a finger pulse sensor), which seems to be important
                  in
                  > reducing the potential for heart attacks, etc. The process of
                  > learning to increase your heart rate variability apparently
                  involves
                  > learning to be less angry. I don't really understand the whole
                  > psychophysiology of it, but there is a website, www.heartmath.com,
                  > that I think some of us might find interesting to check out.
                  >
                  > Nevertheless, I really hope these side excursions do not distract
                  us
                  > from accomplishing our main purpose of developing the openEEG
                  system.
                  > --Jim Peterson
                • peterson@discover-net.net
                  ... same ... source ... thermal ... You re absolutely rightr about the value of temperature training, and the cheapness of the equipment. Actually, I use it a
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jul 14, 2001
                    --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                    > hi
                    > 1. about my goal - it was just to design the s.w. with some option
                    > that in future it could be used for bfb/nfb . just not to do the
                    same
                    > work twice in the future . i know it delays in some when open
                    source
                    > s.w. is ready but , we have some nfb soft and second it's the right
                    > way to work .
                    > 2.about bfb , there's on type of bfb that is very simple to do -
                    > hand temperature biofeedback. the tools are cheap and availble
                    > - a simple digital thermometer .but still it's not very used
                    > technique . why ? can anybody start working on this area ?
                    > because to some extent i think the same things that prevent
                    > nfb from bein popular , and the same things that prevent thermal
                    > bfb from being popular .
                    > and i think if we do some serious work on making thermal bfb
                    > popular we have a stronger base for making nfb popular .
                    > it might be very helpfull to our goal (giving the power of nfb
                    > to public) .
                    > 3. on a personal note , could someone write a serious note on
                    thermal
                    > training ? because i have started on this , and i have a few
                    > questions , like for example what temp should i achieve ?
                    > what techinques can i use to achieve lowe temp ???
                    >
                    >
                    You're absolutely rightr about the value of temperature training, and
                    the cheapness of the equipment. Actually, I use it a lot because the
                    equipment is so cheap that one can do it in groups, with an
                    instrument for each participant. You can use almost any thermometer
                    that you can hold in your fingers, such as a glass alcohol
                    thermometer with an exposed bulb you can grasp, but I buy simple $10
                    indoor-outdoor thermometers from Harbor Freight
                    (www.harborfreight.com). You switch the thermometer onto Outdoor and
                    hold the end of the probe with the thermocouple between your fingers.
                    These are good thermometers because they sample temperature every
                    couple of seconds. Many other I/O thermometers, like the ones Radio
                    Shack sells, only sample every 10 or 15 seconds and that's too slow
                    for feedback. We generally try to get people up to 96 F (35.5 C)
                    finger temperature. To accomplish this, you can use many approaches,
                    such as listening to a progressive muscle relaxation tape or an
                    autogenics tape. Or just keep repeating to yourself words
                    like "Soft, warm, heavy, limp" (limp as in loose, free of muscle
                    tension) and trying to increase these feelings in your body.

                    Hope this is helpful.
                    Jim



                    >

                    >
                    > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                    > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Yaniv and other members,
                    > > >
                    > > > I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM.
                    > > >
                    > > > *Computer interface including .
                    > > > * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback.
                    > > > * Module 2, ECG
                    > > > * Module 3, GSR (very effective for anxiety)
                    > > > * Module 4, Temperature FB.
                    > > > * Module 5, EMG
                    > > >
                    > > This is an absolutely fascinating idea. I think most of the
                    > > biofeedback equipment on the market is grossly overpriced, and if
                    > it
                    > > were more commonly available a whole lot of people would be
                    better
                    > > served. This would by no means reduce the need for therapists,
                    who
                    > > would be able to keep themselves very busy as "coaches." One
                    very
                    > > interesting new area is heart rate variability (based either on
                    > > EKG/ecg or on a finger pulse sensor), which seems to be important
                    > in
                    > > reducing the potential for heart attacks, etc. The process of
                    > > learning to increase your heart rate variability apparently
                    > involves
                    > > learning to be less angry. I don't really understand the whole
                    > > psychophysiology of it, but there is a website,
                    www.heartmath.com,
                    > > that I think some of us might find interesting to check out.
                    > >
                    > > Nevertheless, I really hope these side excursions do not distract
                    > us
                    > > from accomplishing our main purpose of developing the openEEG
                    > system.
                    > > --Jim Peterson
                  • frans
                    Hi, Temperature Feed Back. Lets asume the temperature of the human body is 37 degree s Celsius. A to high temp. would be fever. Raising only one or two
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jul 14, 2001
                      Hi,
                      Temperature Feed Back.
                       
                      Lets asume the temperature of the human body is
                      37 degree's Celsius. A to high temp. would be fever.
                       
                      Raising only one or two degree's celsius could be done,
                      but it works slowly. GSR for example react fast.
                      From all the bfb methods temp. is the slowest.
                      One can use temp. with succes, but the problem is dat it
                      works slow.
                      A therapist must convince a client he/she can control his/
                      her body. At least some parts of it.
                      If this would take to long, then the client would not be
                      building confidence.  A qiuck prove that one can influence
                      one's body-processes gives client confidence.
                       
                      Temp, is used in anxiety. There is some illness where
                      people suffer from bad blood circulation. Raising the
                      temp, in an given area can improve the condition.
                      A higher body temp. at a given location indicates more
                      blood circulation. Only logic then to use temp. for con-
                      ditions where you need to have better blood circulation.
                       
                      In my opinion Temp.FB, is only important in the above
                      conditions, and for experiments. In autogenic training people learn to relax, raise the temp. of arms and legs etc..
                      If you would try this you would notic its easy with arms and your feets. But if you try to raise the temp of any
                      onther part of the body it would be not that easy.
                       
                      For example, in mind-control class, i could feel heat in my
                      feets and lower legs, and in my hands. Notat the top of
                      my head, or in my neck....To become more sensitive to
                      other parts of the body temp.FB is ideal. But again, it
                      works slow.
                       
                      EEG can be used for depression sinds some wave patterns correlate to depression (according to rechearch).
                      GSR, Temp, ECG, EMG, are only physiological reactions
                      due to some problems like fear, stress etc...
                       
                      Most BFB learn us to react different to events, social or
                      psychological proplems. Controlling our reaction to some
                      event makes that a event does not control us anymore...
                       
                      F. smith
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:04 PM
                      Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: Software requirements

                      --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                      > hi
                      > 1. about my goal - it was just to design the s.w. with some option
                      > that in future it could be used for bfb/nfb . just not to do the
                      same
                      > work twice in the future . i know it delays in some when open
                      source
                      > s.w. is ready but , we have some nfb soft and second it's the right
                      > way to work .
                      > 2.about bfb , there's on type of bfb that is very simple to do -
                      >   hand temperature biofeedback. the tools are cheap and availble
                      >   - a simple digital thermometer .but still it's not very used
                      >   technique . why ? can anybody start working on this area ?
                      >   because to some extent i think the same things that prevent
                      >   nfb from bein popular , and the same things that prevent thermal
                      >   bfb from being popular .
                      >   and i think if we do some serious work on making thermal bfb
                      >   popular we have a stronger base for making nfb popular .
                      >   it might be very helpfull to our goal (giving the power of nfb 
                      >   to public) .
                      > 3. on a personal note , could someone write a serious note on
                      thermal
                      >    training ? because i have started on this , and  i have a few
                      >    questions , like for example what temp should i achieve ?
                      >    what techinques can i use to achieve lowe temp ???
                      >
                      >
                      You're absolutely rightr about the value of temperature training, and
                      the cheapness of the equipment.  Actually, I use it a lot because the
                      equipment is so cheap that one can do it in groups, with an
                      instrument for each participant. You can use almost any thermometer
                      that you can hold in your fingers, such as a glass alcohol
                      thermometer with an exposed bulb you can grasp, but I buy simple $10
                      indoor-outdoor thermometers from Harbor Freight
                      (www.harborfreight.com).  You switch the thermometer onto Outdoor and
                      hold the end of the probe with the thermocouple between your fingers.
                      These are good thermometers because they sample temperature every
                      couple of seconds.  Many other I/O thermometers, like the ones Radio
                      Shack sells, only sample every 10 or 15 seconds and that's too slow
                      for feedback. We generally try to get people up to 96 F (35.5 C)
                      finger temperature.  To accomplish this, you can use many approaches,
                      such as listening to a progressive muscle relaxation tape or an
                      autogenics tape.  Or just keep repeating to yourself words
                      like "Soft, warm, heavy, limp" (limp as in loose, free of muscle
                      tension) and trying to increase these feelings in your body.

                      Hope this is helpful.
                      Jim



                      >

                      >   
                      > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                      > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >   Hi Yaniv and other members,
                      > > >
                      > > >   I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM.
                      > > >
                      > > >   *Computer interface including .
                      > > >   * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback.
                      > > >   * Module  2, ECG
                      > > >   * Module 3, GSR (very effective for anxiety)
                      > > >   * Module 4, Temperature FB.
                      > > >   * Module 5, EMG
                      > > >
                      > > This is an absolutely fascinating idea.  I think most of the
                      > > biofeedback equipment on the market is grossly overpriced, and if
                      > it
                      > > were more commonly available a whole lot of people would be
                      better
                      > > served.  This would by no means reduce the need for therapists,
                      who
                      > > would be able to keep themselves very busy as "coaches."  One
                      very
                      > > interesting new area is heart rate variability (based either on
                      > > EKG/ecg or on a finger pulse sensor), which seems to be important
                      > in
                      > > reducing the potential for heart attacks, etc.  The process of
                      > > learning to increase your heart rate variability apparently
                      > involves
                      > > learning to be less angry.  I don't really understand the whole
                      > > psychophysiology of it, but there is a website,
                      www.heartmath.com,
                      > > that I think some of us might find interesting to check out. 
                      > >
                      > > Nevertheless, I really hope these side excursions do not distract
                      > us
                      > > from accomplishing our main purpose of developing the openEEG
                      > system.
                      > > --Jim Peterson


                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      buildcheapeeg-unsubscribe@egroups.com



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    • peterson@discover-net.net
                      ... I think that temperature is very much underrated as a biofeedback procedure--not just by you, Frans, butr by many professionals in the field as well.
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jul 14, 2001
                        --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                        > Hi,
                        > Temperature Feed Back.
                        >
                        > Lets asume the temperature of the human body is
                        > 37 degree's Celsius. A to high temp. would be fever.
                        >
                        > Raising only one or two degree's celsius could be done,
                        > but it works slowly. GSR for example react fast.
                        > From all the bfb methods temp. is the slowest.
                        > One can use temp. with succes, but the problem is dat it
                        > works slow.
                        >
                        I think that temperature is very much underrated as a biofeedback
                        procedure--not just by you, Frans, butr by many professionals in the
                        field as well. True, temperature responses are somewhat slow, but
                        that can actually be an advantage. If the instrumentation doesn't
                        pick up every fleeting change and orienting response like EDR does,
                        they are less distracted by the equipment and seem better able to
                        focus on the relaxation process. People in relatively high anxiety
                        states often start out with fingers at (or only slightly above) room
                        temperature (~20 C). To get from there to 35 C is pretty impressive,
                        and because the electronic thermometers read in 0.10 degree
                        increments, they get a lot of feedback about even very small
                        temperature changes. In my experience, it takes about 6 to 10
                        sessions of training before people learn to reliably get to the 35 or
                        35.5 degree criterion. I have had really wonderful clinical results
                        with these simple devices in many cases. At the AAPB convention in
                        Denver, Dr. Pat Norris (daugher of Elmer Green, a pioneer in EEG
                        biofeedback, who with her husband Steve Fahrion has done a lot of EEG
                        biofeedback work) presented a whole session on temperature training.
                        She ties it in with a variety of approaches including Assagioli's
                        psychosynthesis. Also, Gene Peniston (originator of neurotherapy for
                        addictions) always uses temperature training in the first few
                        sessions before putting his patients onto the EEG equipment, partly
                        because it helps them to see the connection between mind and body,
                        and partly because it helps prepare them for the alpha-theta training.

                        Get a cheap thermometer and try it. You may be surprised--but make
                        sure it amples temp every couple of seconds like the Harbor Freight
                        ones do, or like the ones commonly sold especially for biofeedback
                        do. Biomedical Instruments sells a special biofeedback thermometer
                        for about $20 if you want something a little fancier than the Harbor
                        Freight version I mentioned earlier.

                        A therapist must convince a client he/she can control his/
                        > her body. At least some parts of it.
                        > If this would take to long, then the client would not be
                        > building confidence. A qiuck prove that one can influence
                        > one's body-processes gives client confidence.

                        In my experience, people do learn to change finger temperature quite
                        easily and quickly. They almost always start getting useful results
                        in the first session, and these are only 15 or 20 minute sessions.
                        >
                        > Temp, is used in anxiety. There is some illness where
                        > people suffer from bad blood circulation. Raising the
                        > temp, in an given area can improve the condition.
                        > A higher body temp. at a given location indicates more
                        > blood circulation. Only logic then to use temp. for con-
                        > ditions where you need to have better blood circulation.
                        >
                        > In my opinion Temp.FB, is only important in the above
                        > conditions, and for experiments. In autogenic training people learn
                        to relax, raise the temp. of arms and legs etc..
                        > If you would try this you would notic its easy with arms and your
                        feets. But if you try to raise the temp of any
                        > onther part of the body it would be not that easy.
                        >
                        > For example, in mind-control class, i could feel heat in my
                        > feets and lower legs, and in my hands. Notat the top of
                        > my head, or in my neck....To become more sensitive to
                        > other parts of the body temp.FB is ideal. But again, it
                        > works slow.
                        >
                        > EEG can be used for depression sinds some wave patterns correlate
                        to depression (according to rechearch).
                        > GSR, Temp, ECG, EMG, are only physiological reactions
                        > due to some problems like fear, stress etc...
                        >
                        > Most BFB learn us to react different to events, social or
                        > psychological proplems. Controlling our reaction to some
                        > event makes that a event does not control us anymore...
                        >
                        > F. smith
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: peterson@d...
                        > To: buildcheapeeg@y...
                        > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:04 PM
                        > Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: Software requirements
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                        > > hi
                        > > 1. about my goal - it was just to design the s.w. with some
                        option
                        > > that in future it could be used for bfb/nfb . just not to do
                        the
                        > same
                        > > work twice in the future . i know it delays in some when open
                        > source
                        > > s.w. is ready but , we have some nfb soft and second it's the
                        right
                        > > way to work .
                        > > 2.about bfb , there's on type of bfb that is very simple to do -

                        > > hand temperature biofeedback. the tools are cheap and
                        availble
                        > > - a simple digital thermometer .but still it's not very used
                        > > technique . why ? can anybody start working on this area ?
                        > > because to some extent i think the same things that prevent
                        > > nfb from bein popular , and the same things that prevent
                        thermal
                        > > bfb from being popular .
                        > > and i think if we do some serious work on making thermal bfb
                        > > popular we have a stronger base for making nfb popular .
                        > > it might be very helpfull to our goal (giving the power of
                        nfb
                        > > to public) .
                        > > 3. on a personal note , could someone write a serious note on
                        > thermal
                        > > training ? because i have started on this , and i have a
                        few
                        > > questions , like for example what temp should i achieve ?
                        > > what techinques can i use to achieve lowe temp ???
                        > >
                        > >
                        > You're absolutely rightr about the value of temperature training,
                        and
                        > the cheapness of the equipment. Actually, I use it a lot because
                        the
                        > equipment is so cheap that one can do it in groups, with an
                        > instrument for each participant. You can use almost any
                        thermometer
                        > that you can hold in your fingers, such as a glass alcohol
                        > thermometer with an exposed bulb you can grasp, but I buy simple
                        $10
                        > indoor-outdoor thermometers from Harbor Freight
                        > (www.harborfreight.com). You switch the thermometer onto Outdoor
                        and
                        > hold the end of the probe with the thermocouple between your
                        fingers.
                        > These are good thermometers because they sample temperature every
                        > couple of seconds. Many other I/O thermometers, like the ones
                        Radio
                        > Shack sells, only sample every 10 or 15 seconds and that's too
                        slow
                        > for feedback. We generally try to get people up to 96 F (35.5 C)
                        > finger temperature. To accomplish this, you can use many
                        approaches,
                        > such as listening to a progressive muscle relaxation tape or an
                        > autogenics tape. Or just keep repeating to yourself words
                        > like "Soft, warm, heavy, limp" (limp as in loose, free of muscle
                        > tension) and trying to increase these feelings in your body.
                        >
                        > Hope this is helpful.
                        > Jim
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                        > > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Hi Yaniv and other members,
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > *Computer interface including .
                        > > > > * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback.
                        > > > > * Module 2, ECG
                        > > > > * Module 3, GSR (very effective for anxiety)
                        > > > > * Module 4, Temperature FB.
                        > > > > * Module 5, EMG
                        > > > >
                        > > > This is an absolutely fascinating idea. I think most of the
                        > > > biofeedback equipment on the market is grossly overpriced,
                        and if
                        > > it
                        > > > were more commonly available a whole lot of people would be
                        > better
                        > > > served. This would by no means reduce the need for
                        therapists,
                        > who
                        > > > would be able to keep themselves very busy as "coaches." One
                        > very
                        > > > interesting new area is heart rate variability (based either
                        on
                        > > > EKG/ecg or on a finger pulse sensor), which seems to be
                        important
                        > > in
                        > > > reducing the potential for heart attacks, etc. The process
                        of
                        > > > learning to increase your heart rate variability apparently
                        > > involves
                        > > > learning to be less angry. I don't really understand the
                        whole
                        > > > psychophysiology of it, but there is a website,
                        > www.heartmath.com,
                        > > > that I think some of us might find interesting to check out.
                        > > >
                        > > > Nevertheless, I really hope these side excursions do not
                        distract
                        > > us
                        > > > from accomplishing our main purpose of developing the openEEG
                        > > system.
                        > > > --Jim Peterson
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > buildcheapeeg-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        Service.
                      • frans
                        Hi, Again, some people suffer from a condition (i forgot the name) where the blood-circulation is in-correct. That is they suffer from cold hand or feets. The
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jul 14, 2001
                           
                           
                          Hi,
                           
                          Again, some people suffer from a condition (i forgot the
                          name) where the blood-circulation is in-correct.
                          That is they suffer from cold hand or feets. The use of
                          temp. FB makes is possible to learn to raise the temp.
                          Probally there are more conditions like this.
                           
                          BFB/NFB is used to learn to control or influence physiological systems like bloodcirculation, blood-
                          pressure, heart-beat,
                           
                           
                          --- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 8:37 AM
                          Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: Software requirements

                          hi
                          first ,when i do temp bfb  i usualy can get to around 96.6F -97.1F
                          there is a reason to try for more ?
                          i feel somewhat relaxed , but it's not such a unique thing-
                          i can meditate or just calm myself down to get to this , i think .
                          so maybe for this bfb i don't need .

                          but again - for most people - how usefull is temp bfb, how much it
                          attracts people to bfb ? what the change most people experience after
                          this ? is like that's the first time the feel the relaxtion response
                          or know how to go there ? 
                          what prevent temp bfb becoming very popular ?

                          many question , but i hope theyle be useful

                          sincerly yaniv 
                          --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                          > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                          > > Hi,
                          > > Temperature Feed Back.
                          > >
                          > > Lets asume the temperature of the human body is
                          > > 37 degree's Celsius. A to high temp. would be fever.
                          > >
                          > > Raising only one or two degree's celsius could be done,
                          > > but it works slowly. GSR for example react fast.
                          > > From all the bfb methods temp. is the slowest.
                          > > One can use temp. with succes, but the problem is dat it
                          > > works slow.
                          > >
                          > I think that temperature is very much underrated as a biofeedback
                          > procedure--not just by you, Frans, butr by many professionals in
                          the
                          > field as well.  True, temperature responses are somewhat slow, but
                          > that can actually be an advantage.  If the instrumentation doesn't
                          > pick up every fleeting change and orienting response like EDR does,
                          > they are less distracted by the equipment and seem better able to
                          > focus on the relaxation process. People in relatively high anxiety
                          > states often start out with fingers at (or only slightly above)
                          room
                          > temperature (~20 C).  To get from there to 35 C is pretty
                          impressive,
                          > and because the electronic thermometers read in 0.10 degree
                          > increments, they get a lot of feedback about even very small
                          > temperature changes.  In my experience, it takes about 6 to 10
                          > sessions of training before people learn to reliably get to the 35
                          or
                          > 35.5 degree criterion.  I have had really wonderful clinical
                          results
                          > with these simple devices in many cases.  At the AAPB convention in
                          > Denver, Dr. Pat Norris (daugher of Elmer Green, a pioneer in EEG
                          > biofeedback, who with her husband Steve Fahrion has done a lot of
                          EEG
                          > biofeedback work) presented a whole session on temperature
                          training.
                          > She ties it in with a variety of approaches including Assagioli's
                          > psychosynthesis. Also, Gene Peniston (originator of neurotherapy
                          for
                          > addictions) always uses temperature training in the first few
                          > sessions before putting his patients onto the EEG equipment, partly
                          > because it helps them to see the connection between mind and body,
                          > and partly because it helps prepare them for the alpha-theta
                          training.
                          >
                          > Get a cheap thermometer and try it. You may be surprised--but make
                          > sure it amples temp every couple of seconds like the Harbor Freight
                          > ones do, or like the ones commonly sold especially for biofeedback
                          > do.  Biomedical Instruments sells a special biofeedback thermometer
                          > for about $20 if you want something a little fancier than the
                          Harbor
                          > Freight version I mentioned earlier.
                          >
                          >  A therapist must convince a client he/she can control his/
                          > > her body. At least some parts of it.
                          > > If this would take to long, then the client would not be
                          > > building confidence.  A qiuck prove that one can influence
                          > > one's body-processes gives client confidence.
                          >
                          > In my experience, people do learn to change finger temperature
                          quite
                          > easily and quickly.  They almost always start getting useful
                          results
                          > in the first session, and these are only 15 or 20 minute sessions.
                          > >
                          > > Temp, is used in anxiety. There is some illness where
                          > > people suffer from bad blood circulation. Raising the
                          > > temp, in an given area can improve the condition.
                          > > A higher body temp. at a given location indicates more
                          > > blood circulation. Only logic then to use temp. for con-
                          > > ditions where you need to have better blood circulation.
                          > >
                          > > In my opinion Temp.FB, is only important in the above
                          > > conditions, and for experiments. In autogenic training people
                          learn
                          > to relax, raise the temp. of arms and legs etc..
                          > > If you would try this you would notic its easy with arms and your
                          > feets. But if you try to raise the temp of any
                          > > onther part of the body it would be not that easy.
                          > >
                          > > For example, in mind-control class, i could feel heat in my
                          > > feets and lower legs, and in my hands. Notat the top of
                          > > my head, or in my neck....To become more sensitive to
                          > > other parts of the body temp.FB is ideal. But again, it
                          > > works slow.
                          > >
                          > > EEG can be used for depression sinds some wave patterns correlate
                          > to depression (according to rechearch).
                          > > GSR, Temp, ECG, EMG, are only physiological reactions
                          > > due to some problems like fear, stress etc...
                          > >
                          > > Most BFB learn us to react different to events, social or
                          > > psychological proplems. Controlling our reaction to some
                          > > event makes that a event does not control us anymore...
                          > >
                          > > F. smith
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >   ----- Original Message -----
                          > >   From: peterson@d...
                          > >   To: buildcheapeeg@y...
                          > >   Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:04 PM
                          > >   Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: Software requirements
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >   --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                          > >   > hi
                          > >   > 1. about my goal - it was just to design the s.w. with some
                          > option
                          > >   > that in future it could be used for bfb/nfb . just not to do
                          > the
                          > >   same
                          > >   > work twice in the future . i know it delays in some when open
                          > >   source
                          > >   > s.w. is ready but , we have some nfb soft and second it's the
                          > right
                          > >   > way to work .
                          > >   > 2.about bfb , there's on type of bfb that is very simple to
                          do -

                          > >   >   hand temperature biofeedback. the tools are cheap and
                          > availble
                          > >   >   - a simple digital thermometer .but still it's not very
                          used
                          > >   >   technique . why ? can anybody start working on this area ?
                          > >   >   because to some extent i think the same things that prevent
                          > >   >   nfb from bein popular , and the same things that prevent
                          > thermal
                          > >   >   bfb from being popular .
                          > >   >   and i think if we do some serious work on making thermal
                          bfb
                          > >   >   popular we have a stronger base for making nfb popular .
                          > >   >   it might be very helpfull to our goal (giving the power of
                          > nfb 
                          > >   >   to public) .
                          > >   > 3. on a personal note , could someone write a serious note on
                          > >   thermal
                          > >   >    training ? because i have started on this , and  i have a
                          > few
                          > >   >    questions , like for example what temp should i achieve ?
                          > >   >    what techinques can i use to achieve lowe temp ???
                          > >   >
                          > >   >
                          > >   You're absolutely rightr about the value of temperature
                          training,
                          > and
                          > >   the cheapness of the equipment.  Actually, I use it a lot
                          because
                          > the
                          > >   equipment is so cheap that one can do it in groups, with an
                          > >   instrument for each participant. You can use almost any
                          > thermometer
                          > >   that you can hold in your fingers, such as a glass alcohol
                          > >   thermometer with an exposed bulb you can grasp, but I buy
                          simple
                          > $10
                          > >   indoor-outdoor thermometers from Harbor Freight
                          > >   (www.harborfreight.com).  You switch the thermometer onto
                          Outdoor
                          > and
                          > >   hold the end of the probe with the thermocouple between your
                          > fingers.
                          > >   These are good thermometers because they sample temperature
                          every
                          > >   couple of seconds.  Many other I/O thermometers, like the ones
                          > Radio
                          > >   Shack sells, only sample every 10 or 15 seconds and that's too
                          > slow
                          > >   for feedback. We generally try to get people up to 96 F (35.5
                          C)
                          > >   finger temperature.  To accomplish this, you can use many
                          > approaches,
                          > >   such as listening to a progressive muscle relaxation tape or an
                          > >   autogenics tape.  Or just keep repeating to yourself words
                          > >   like "Soft, warm, heavy, limp" (limp as in loose, free of
                          muscle
                          > >   tension) and trying to increase these feelings in your body.
                          > >
                          > >   Hope this is helpful.
                          > >   Jim
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >   >
                          > >
                          > >   >   
                          > >   > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                          > >   > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                          > >   > > >
                          > >   > > >
                          > >   > > >   Hi Yaniv and other members,
                          > >   > > >
                          > >   > > >   I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM.
                          > >   > > >
                          > >   > > >   *Computer interface including .
                          > >   > > >   * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback.
                          > >   > > >   * Module  2, ECG
                          > >   > > >   * Module 3, GSR (very effective for anxiety)
                          > >   > > >   * Module 4, Temperature FB.
                          > >   > > >   * Module 5, EMG
                          > >   > > >
                          > >   > > This is an absolutely fascinating idea.  I think most of
                          the
                          > >   > > biofeedback equipment on the market is grossly overpriced,
                          > and if
                          > >   > it
                          > >   > > were more commonly available a whole lot of people would be
                          > >   better
                          > >   > > served.  This would by no means reduce the need for
                          > therapists,
                          > >   who
                          > >   > > would be able to keep themselves very busy as "coaches." 
                          One
                          > >   very
                          > >   > > interesting new area is heart rate variability (based
                          either
                          > on
                          > >   > > EKG/ecg or on a finger pulse sensor), which seems to be
                          > important
                          > >   > in
                          > >   > > reducing the potential for heart attacks, etc.  The process
                          > of
                          > >   > > learning to increase your heart rate variability apparently
                          > >   > involves
                          > >   > > learning to be less angry.  I don't really understand the
                          > whole
                          > >   > > psychophysiology of it, but there is a website,
                          > >   www.heartmath.com,
                          > >   > > that I think some of us might find interesting to check
                          out. 
                          > >   > >
                          > >   > > Nevertheless, I really hope these side excursions do not
                          > distract
                          > >   > us
                          > >   > > from accomplishing our main purpose of developing the
                          openEEG
                          > >   > system.
                          > >   > > --Jim Peterson
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > >   buildcheapeeg-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >   Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          > Service.


                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          buildcheapeeg-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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                        • yaniv_vi@yahoo.com
                          hi first ,when i do temp bfb i usualy can get to around 96.6F -97.1F there is a reason to try for more ? i feel somewhat relaxed , but it s not such a unique
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jul 14, 2001
                            hi
                            first ,when i do temp bfb i usualy can get to around 96.6F -97.1F
                            there is a reason to try for more ?
                            i feel somewhat relaxed , but it's not such a unique thing-
                            i can meditate or just calm myself down to get to this , i think .
                            so maybe for this bfb i don't need .

                            but again - for most people - how usefull is temp bfb, how much it
                            attracts people to bfb ? what the change most people experience after
                            this ? is like that's the first time the feel the relaxtion response
                            or know how to go there ?
                            what prevent temp bfb becoming very popular ?

                            many question , but i hope theyle be useful

                            sincerly yaniv
                            --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                            > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                            > > Hi,
                            > > Temperature Feed Back.
                            > >
                            > > Lets asume the temperature of the human body is
                            > > 37 degree's Celsius. A to high temp. would be fever.
                            > >
                            > > Raising only one or two degree's celsius could be done,
                            > > but it works slowly. GSR for example react fast.
                            > > From all the bfb methods temp. is the slowest.
                            > > One can use temp. with succes, but the problem is dat it
                            > > works slow.
                            > >
                            > I think that temperature is very much underrated as a biofeedback
                            > procedure--not just by you, Frans, butr by many professionals in
                            the
                            > field as well. True, temperature responses are somewhat slow, but
                            > that can actually be an advantage. If the instrumentation doesn't
                            > pick up every fleeting change and orienting response like EDR does,
                            > they are less distracted by the equipment and seem better able to
                            > focus on the relaxation process. People in relatively high anxiety
                            > states often start out with fingers at (or only slightly above)
                            room
                            > temperature (~20 C). To get from there to 35 C is pretty
                            impressive,
                            > and because the electronic thermometers read in 0.10 degree
                            > increments, they get a lot of feedback about even very small
                            > temperature changes. In my experience, it takes about 6 to 10
                            > sessions of training before people learn to reliably get to the 35
                            or
                            > 35.5 degree criterion. I have had really wonderful clinical
                            results
                            > with these simple devices in many cases. At the AAPB convention in
                            > Denver, Dr. Pat Norris (daugher of Elmer Green, a pioneer in EEG
                            > biofeedback, who with her husband Steve Fahrion has done a lot of
                            EEG
                            > biofeedback work) presented a whole session on temperature
                            training.
                            > She ties it in with a variety of approaches including Assagioli's
                            > psychosynthesis. Also, Gene Peniston (originator of neurotherapy
                            for
                            > addictions) always uses temperature training in the first few
                            > sessions before putting his patients onto the EEG equipment, partly
                            > because it helps them to see the connection between mind and body,
                            > and partly because it helps prepare them for the alpha-theta
                            training.
                            >
                            > Get a cheap thermometer and try it. You may be surprised--but make
                            > sure it amples temp every couple of seconds like the Harbor Freight
                            > ones do, or like the ones commonly sold especially for biofeedback
                            > do. Biomedical Instruments sells a special biofeedback thermometer
                            > for about $20 if you want something a little fancier than the
                            Harbor
                            > Freight version I mentioned earlier.
                            >
                            > A therapist must convince a client he/she can control his/
                            > > her body. At least some parts of it.
                            > > If this would take to long, then the client would not be
                            > > building confidence. A qiuck prove that one can influence
                            > > one's body-processes gives client confidence.
                            >
                            > In my experience, people do learn to change finger temperature
                            quite
                            > easily and quickly. They almost always start getting useful
                            results
                            > in the first session, and these are only 15 or 20 minute sessions.
                            > >
                            > > Temp, is used in anxiety. There is some illness where
                            > > people suffer from bad blood circulation. Raising the
                            > > temp, in an given area can improve the condition.
                            > > A higher body temp. at a given location indicates more
                            > > blood circulation. Only logic then to use temp. for con-
                            > > ditions where you need to have better blood circulation.
                            > >
                            > > In my opinion Temp.FB, is only important in the above
                            > > conditions, and for experiments. In autogenic training people
                            learn
                            > to relax, raise the temp. of arms and legs etc..
                            > > If you would try this you would notic its easy with arms and your
                            > feets. But if you try to raise the temp of any
                            > > onther part of the body it would be not that easy.
                            > >
                            > > For example, in mind-control class, i could feel heat in my
                            > > feets and lower legs, and in my hands. Notat the top of
                            > > my head, or in my neck....To become more sensitive to
                            > > other parts of the body temp.FB is ideal. But again, it
                            > > works slow.
                            > >
                            > > EEG can be used for depression sinds some wave patterns correlate
                            > to depression (according to rechearch).
                            > > GSR, Temp, ECG, EMG, are only physiological reactions
                            > > due to some problems like fear, stress etc...
                            > >
                            > > Most BFB learn us to react different to events, social or
                            > > psychological proplems. Controlling our reaction to some
                            > > event makes that a event does not control us anymore...
                            > >
                            > > F. smith
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > From: peterson@d...
                            > > To: buildcheapeeg@y...
                            > > Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:04 PM
                            > > Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: Software requirements
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                            > > > hi
                            > > > 1. about my goal - it was just to design the s.w. with some
                            > option
                            > > > that in future it could be used for bfb/nfb . just not to do
                            > the
                            > > same
                            > > > work twice in the future . i know it delays in some when open
                            > > source
                            > > > s.w. is ready but , we have some nfb soft and second it's the
                            > right
                            > > > way to work .
                            > > > 2.about bfb , there's on type of bfb that is very simple to
                            do -
                            >
                            > > > hand temperature biofeedback. the tools are cheap and
                            > availble
                            > > > - a simple digital thermometer .but still it's not very
                            used
                            > > > technique . why ? can anybody start working on this area ?
                            > > > because to some extent i think the same things that prevent
                            > > > nfb from bein popular , and the same things that prevent
                            > thermal
                            > > > bfb from being popular .
                            > > > and i think if we do some serious work on making thermal
                            bfb
                            > > > popular we have a stronger base for making nfb popular .
                            > > > it might be very helpfull to our goal (giving the power of
                            > nfb
                            > > > to public) .
                            > > > 3. on a personal note , could someone write a serious note on
                            > > thermal
                            > > > training ? because i have started on this , and i have a
                            > few
                            > > > questions , like for example what temp should i achieve ?
                            > > > what techinques can i use to achieve lowe temp ???
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > You're absolutely rightr about the value of temperature
                            training,
                            > and
                            > > the cheapness of the equipment. Actually, I use it a lot
                            because
                            > the
                            > > equipment is so cheap that one can do it in groups, with an
                            > > instrument for each participant. You can use almost any
                            > thermometer
                            > > that you can hold in your fingers, such as a glass alcohol
                            > > thermometer with an exposed bulb you can grasp, but I buy
                            simple
                            > $10
                            > > indoor-outdoor thermometers from Harbor Freight
                            > > (www.harborfreight.com). You switch the thermometer onto
                            Outdoor
                            > and
                            > > hold the end of the probe with the thermocouple between your
                            > fingers.
                            > > These are good thermometers because they sample temperature
                            every
                            > > couple of seconds. Many other I/O thermometers, like the ones
                            > Radio
                            > > Shack sells, only sample every 10 or 15 seconds and that's too
                            > slow
                            > > for feedback. We generally try to get people up to 96 F (35.5
                            C)
                            > > finger temperature. To accomplish this, you can use many
                            > approaches,
                            > > such as listening to a progressive muscle relaxation tape or an
                            > > autogenics tape. Or just keep repeating to yourself words
                            > > like "Soft, warm, heavy, limp" (limp as in loose, free of
                            muscle
                            > > tension) and trying to increase these feelings in your body.
                            > >
                            > > Hope this is helpful.
                            > > Jim
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                            > > > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Hi Yaniv and other members,
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > *Computer interface including .
                            > > > > > * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback.
                            > > > > > * Module 2, ECG
                            > > > > > * Module 3, GSR (very effective for anxiety)
                            > > > > > * Module 4, Temperature FB.
                            > > > > > * Module 5, EMG
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > This is an absolutely fascinating idea. I think most of
                            the
                            > > > > biofeedback equipment on the market is grossly overpriced,
                            > and if
                            > > > it
                            > > > > were more commonly available a whole lot of people would be
                            > > better
                            > > > > served. This would by no means reduce the need for
                            > therapists,
                            > > who
                            > > > > would be able to keep themselves very busy as "coaches."
                            One
                            > > very
                            > > > > interesting new area is heart rate variability (based
                            either
                            > on
                            > > > > EKG/ecg or on a finger pulse sensor), which seems to be
                            > important
                            > > > in
                            > > > > reducing the potential for heart attacks, etc. The process
                            > of
                            > > > > learning to increase your heart rate variability apparently
                            > > > involves
                            > > > > learning to be less angry. I don't really understand the
                            > whole
                            > > > > psychophysiology of it, but there is a website,
                            > > www.heartmath.com,
                            > > > > that I think some of us might find interesting to check
                            out.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Nevertheless, I really hope these side excursions do not
                            > distract
                            > > > us
                            > > > > from accomplishing our main purpose of developing the
                            openEEG
                            > > > system.
                            > > > > --Jim Peterson
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > buildcheapeeg-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > Service.
                          • frans
                            Hi, sorry, is pushed the send-button by accident. okay: Temp FB. people who are atracted by Temp.FB, are people like us (experimenters), and people who NEED to
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jul 15, 2001
                               
                               
                               
                              Hi,
                              sorry, is pushed the send-button by accident.
                               
                              okay:
                              Temp FB. people who are atracted by Temp.FB,
                              are people like us (experimenters), and people who
                              NEED to learn to control blood circulation, because
                              of some condition. Some people suffer from cold hand
                              and feets due to poor circulation. (i forgot the name).
                               
                              If our group succeeds in making NFB/BFB available
                              for a wide public, then automaticly whe would attrack
                              different people. (our information then is important).
                               
                              ohter people belong to groups like:
                              BFB/NFB experimenters (like us)
                              Silva mind-control, autogenic training, sports-man,
                              hypno-therapists, psychotherapists, yogi etc.........
                               
                              Like i allready pointed out, i am able to generate heat
                              in my feets and hand. But not at the top of my head,
                              or lets say my schoulder. Why, whe are not that sensi-
                              tive at that point. In yoga people can focus on each
                              part of the body, making the body concious.
                              The use of Temp.FB then is a good tool to help in
                              becomming more aware of places like the top of my head.
                               
                              GSR is fine for anxiety etc...However, i leanr us to
                              change our reaction to some image or event.
                              Sportman can learn to relax while thinking of a game.
                              Students can learn to relax for there examination.
                               
                              Like Tem.FB GSR will not deal with (real) depression
                              However, all methods need relaxation, so relaxation
                              in-it-self would lower blood-pressure, bring down
                              hear-beat etc...
                               
                              Relaxation is only one part, but to learn to control
                              bloodpressure, brainwaves, tension (emg) etc....
                              at will is the challenge. In yoga this would take years.
                               
                              EMG is fantastic to learn to relax musles at will.
                              I have pain in my fore-head (tension), emg learns
                              to relax these muscles at will. There are specific
                              places where tension manifest (neck, back, head etc)
                              Relaxation would alter such a condition, but emg
                              would give you the power to control muscles.
                               
                              In one of my book (from the 70's) i could read
                              about a man who learned not to speak internally.
                              When whe read whe talk inside our head (sub-vocalisa-
                              tion).
                               
                              There are manny reason to use BFB. In yoga people
                              where able to raise the temp. of there hands in winter-
                              time.
                               
                              One thing is important. All methods result in relaxation.
                              Therefore the boy would be (tempor) free of tension,
                              fear, etc...
                              If some event brings fear, then GSR could alter this,
                              but Temp, or EMG could also.
                              Fear for example  changes hart-beat, realxation brings
                              it down. You could use GSR, EMG, TEMP to change
                              your reaction to fear/event. The choise is yours.
                               
                               
                              EMG is interesting sinds it can be used for rehabilitation
                              of muscles (injury), but also to alter tension, or just to
                              learn to control the muscles, to make the body more
                              sensitive.
                               
                               
                              In my case:
                               
                              main goal.....top focus (concentration).
                              Control the whole body as far as possible (mind over
                              matter idea).
                              Control over emotions.
                              NFB/BFB is fantastic...
                              GSR sensitive to emotions, if the GSR is of high
                              quality then its extremely usefull to change behaviour.
                              In psycholgy the term de-sensi-tation means that
                              a given event/image does not influence you (at least
                              not in the way is used to be).
                               
                              Whe could talk about all the possibillity's but would be
                              to long.
                              Try this one:
                              When you lie in bed, focus on your feets. You generate
                              heat. Now your hand, you generate heat.
                              Now try your butt, ah..you see...you cannot, try you
                              chest....your ellbow....you see you cannot...
                              You notice that your feet stay warm, cannot change
                              from feet to ellbow....
                              With Temp.FB you could learn it, also with yoga but
                              would take some years or so...
                               
                              There are a few groups:
                               
                              1. people suffering from some illness/condition,
                                  (mental or physical) Proff. Therapists/rechearch.
                              2. Mind over matter freaks, yogi, mind-control etc..
                              3. Peak-performance, sports, buissiness, ......
                              4. general therapists, hypno, psycho, counselers etc..
                              5. experimenters (like us)....
                              6. Technolgy (controlling motors, etc..).
                               
                               
                              Try visualisation, imagine you muscle using a weigth.
                              you will notic heat, and even can measure the result.
                              Imagine jogging, you boddy will react in the same way
                              asi in real-time. (afther some time however the heart
                              beat etc..lowers, i don't know why).
                              In yoga they allready used such a system. imagine
                              weigth lifting, the arm/muscle will grow. (perhaps not
                              as in boddy-building but it will).
                              In chi-gong whe learned to "open" vertebrea so as to
                              eleminate stagnation and make the chi flow.
                               
                              imagine a (blood) vene/arteria, can you contract it or
                              reverse the process ?? yes you can, NASA is doing this.( with VR/BFB)
                               
                              Can you infuence deep musles ? or a vene/arteria in the
                              head ???? you can, ask professionals.
                               
                              You understand that BFB can be dangerous.
                              Try to imagine Jennifer Anniston  getting small-poks for free...you can with no side-effects...but don't try to imagine a pulsating vene/arteria in your head for it migth work....don't try to exercise your heart if you don't
                              know why and what you are doing !!!!!!!!
                               
                              Its a fact that imagination is powerfull, even without
                              BFB/NFB you could change you bio-chemistry etc..
                              In fact, i believe that you could learn to change brain
                              waves without NFB. Yoga and other forms have pro-
                              ven this for hundreds of years.
                               
                              You could use BFB to help you with smoking-habbit.
                              You could also imagine your self free from smoking,
                              healthy, strong etc..with the same results....
                               
                              I guess NFB/BFB works faster sind whe are given
                              direct FEED-BACK at what whe are doing.
                               
                               
                               
                              Best Regards.
                              Frans.
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 8:37 AM
                              Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: Software requirements

                              hi
                              first ,when i do temp bfb  i usualy can get to around 96.6F -97.1F
                              there is a reason to try for more ?
                              i feel somewhat relaxed , but it's not such a unique thing-
                              i can meditate or just calm myself down to get to this , i think .
                              so maybe for this bfb i don't need .

                              but again - for most people - how usefull is temp bfb, how much it
                              attracts people to bfb ? what the change most people experience after
                              this ? is like that's the first time the feel the relaxtion response
                              or know how to go there ? 
                              what prevent temp bfb becoming very popular ?

                              many question , but i hope theyle be useful

                              sincerly yaniv 
                              --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                              > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                              > > Hi,
                              > > Temperature Feed Back.
                              > >
                              > > Lets asume the temperature of the human body is
                              > > 37 degree's Celsius. A to high temp. would be fever.
                              > >
                              > > Raising only one or two degree's celsius could be done,
                              > > but it works slowly. GSR for example react fast.
                              > > From all the bfb methods temp. is the slowest.
                              > > One can use temp. with succes, but the problem is dat it
                              > > works slow.
                              > >
                              > I think that temperature is very much underrated as a biofeedback
                              > procedure--not just by you, Frans, butr by many professionals in
                              the
                              > field as well.  True, temperature responses are somewhat slow, but
                              > that can actually be an advantage.  If the instrumentation doesn't
                              > pick up every fleeting change and orienting response like EDR does,
                              > they are less distracted by the equipment and seem better able to
                              > focus on the relaxation process. People in relatively high anxiety
                              > states often start out with fingers at (or only slightly above)
                              room
                              > temperature (~20 C).  To get from there to 35 C is pretty
                              impressive,
                              > and because the electronic thermometers read in 0.10 degree
                              > increments, they get a lot of feedback about even very small
                              > temperature changes.  In my experience, it takes about 6 to 10
                              > sessions of training before people learn to reliably get to the 35
                              or
                              > 35.5 degree criterion.  I have had really wonderful clinical
                              results
                              > with these simple devices in many cases.  At the AAPB convention in
                              > Denver, Dr. Pat Norris (daugher of Elmer Green, a pioneer in EEG
                              > biofeedback, who with her husband Steve Fahrion has done a lot of
                              EEG
                              > biofeedback work) presented a whole session on temperature
                              training.
                              > She ties it in with a variety of approaches including Assagioli's
                              > psychosynthesis. Also, Gene Peniston (originator of neurotherapy
                              for
                              > addictions) always uses temperature training in the first few
                              > sessions before putting his patients onto the EEG equipment, partly
                              > because it helps them to see the connection between mind and body,
                              > and partly because it helps prepare them for the alpha-theta
                              training.
                              >
                              > Get a cheap thermometer and try it. You may be surprised--but make
                              > sure it amples temp every couple of seconds like the Harbor Freight
                              > ones do, or like the ones commonly sold especially for biofeedback
                              > do.  Biomedical Instruments sells a special biofeedback thermometer
                              > for about $20 if you want something a little fancier than the
                              Harbor
                              > Freight version I mentioned earlier.
                              >
                              >  A therapist must convince a client he/she can control his/
                              > > her body. At least some parts of it.
                              > > If this would take to long, then the client would not be
                              > > building confidence.  A qiuck prove that one can influence
                              > > one's body-processes gives client confidence.
                              >
                              > In my experience, people do learn to change finger temperature
                              quite
                              > easily and quickly.  They almost always start getting useful
                              results
                              > in the first session, and these are only 15 or 20 minute sessions.
                              > >
                              > > Temp, is used in anxiety. There is some illness where
                              > > people suffer from bad blood circulation. Raising the
                              > > temp, in an given area can improve the condition.
                              > > A higher body temp. at a given location indicates more
                              > > blood circulation. Only logic then to use temp. for con-
                              > > ditions where you need to have better blood circulation.
                              > >
                              > > In my opinion Temp.FB, is only important in the above
                              > > conditions, and for experiments. In autogenic training people
                              learn
                              > to relax, raise the temp. of arms and legs etc..
                              > > If you would try this you would notic its easy with arms and your
                              > feets. But if you try to raise the temp of any
                              > > onther part of the body it would be not that easy.
                              > >
                              > > For example, in mind-control class, i could feel heat in my
                              > > feets and lower legs, and in my hands. Notat the top of
                              > > my head, or in my neck....To become more sensitive to
                              > > other parts of the body temp.FB is ideal. But again, it
                              > > works slow.
                              > >
                              > > EEG can be used for depression sinds some wave patterns correlate
                              > to depression (according to rechearch).
                              > > GSR, Temp, ECG, EMG, are only physiological reactions
                              > > due to some problems like fear, stress etc...
                              > >
                              > > Most BFB learn us to react different to events, social or
                              > > psychological proplems. Controlling our reaction to some
                              > > event makes that a event does not control us anymore...
                              > >
                              > > F. smith
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >   ----- Original Message -----
                              > >   From: peterson@d...
                              > >   To: buildcheapeeg@y...
                              > >   Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2001 6:04 PM
                              > >   Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: Software requirements
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >   --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                              > >   > hi
                              > >   > 1. about my goal - it was just to design the s.w. with some
                              > option
                              > >   > that in future it could be used for bfb/nfb . just not to do
                              > the
                              > >   same
                              > >   > work twice in the future . i know it delays in some when open
                              > >   source
                              > >   > s.w. is ready but , we have some nfb soft and second it's the
                              > right
                              > >   > way to work .
                              > >   > 2.about bfb , there's on type of bfb that is very simple to
                              do -

                              > >   >   hand temperature biofeedback. the tools are cheap and
                              > availble
                              > >   >   - a simple digital thermometer .but still it's not very
                              used
                              > >   >   technique . why ? can anybody start working on this area ?
                              > >   >   because to some extent i think the same things that prevent
                              > >   >   nfb from bein popular , and the same things that prevent
                              > thermal
                              > >   >   bfb from being popular .
                              > >   >   and i think if we do some serious work on making thermal
                              bfb
                              > >   >   popular we have a stronger base for making nfb popular .
                              > >   >   it might be very helpfull to our goal (giving the power of
                              > nfb 
                              > >   >   to public) .
                              > >   > 3. on a personal note , could someone write a serious note on
                              > >   thermal
                              > >   >    training ? because i have started on this , and  i have a
                              > few
                              > >   >    questions , like for example what temp should i achieve ?
                              > >   >    what techinques can i use to achieve lowe temp ???
                              > >   >
                              > >   >
                              > >   You're absolutely rightr about the value of temperature
                              training,
                              > and
                              > >   the cheapness of the equipment.  Actually, I use it a lot
                              because
                              > the
                              > >   equipment is so cheap that one can do it in groups, with an
                              > >   instrument for each participant. You can use almost any
                              > thermometer
                              > >   that you can hold in your fingers, such as a glass alcohol
                              > >   thermometer with an exposed bulb you can grasp, but I buy
                              simple
                              > $10
                              > >   indoor-outdoor thermometers from Harbor Freight
                              > >   (www.harborfreight.com).  You switch the thermometer onto
                              Outdoor
                              > and
                              > >   hold the end of the probe with the thermocouple between your
                              > fingers.
                              > >   These are good thermometers because they sample temperature
                              every
                              > >   couple of seconds.  Many other I/O thermometers, like the ones
                              > Radio
                              > >   Shack sells, only sample every 10 or 15 seconds and that's too
                              > slow
                              > >   for feedback. We generally try to get people up to 96 F (35.5
                              C)
                              > >   finger temperature.  To accomplish this, you can use many
                              > approaches,
                              > >   such as listening to a progressive muscle relaxation tape or an
                              > >   autogenics tape.  Or just keep repeating to yourself words
                              > >   like "Soft, warm, heavy, limp" (limp as in loose, free of
                              muscle
                              > >   tension) and trying to increase these feelings in your body.
                              > >
                              > >   Hope this is helpful.
                              > >   Jim
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >   >
                              > >
                              > >   >   
                              > >   > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                              > >   > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
                              > >   > > >
                              > >   > > >
                              > >   > > >   Hi Yaniv and other members,
                              > >   > > >
                              > >   > > >   I was thinking of a MODULAIR BFB/NFB SYSTEM.
                              > >   > > >
                              > >   > > >   *Computer interface including .
                              > >   > > >   * Module 1, EEG for neurofeedback.
                              > >   > > >   * Module  2, ECG
                              > >   > > >   * Module 3, GSR (very effective for anxiety)
                              > >   > > >   * Module 4, Temperature FB.
                              > >   > > >   * Module 5, EMG
                              > >   > > >
                              > >   > > This is an absolutely fascinating idea.  I think most of
                              the
                              > >   > > biofeedback equipment on the market is grossly overpriced,
                              > and if
                              > >   > it
                              > >   > > were more commonly available a whole lot of people would be
                              > >   better
                              > >   > > served.  This would by no means reduce the need for
                              > therapists,
                              > >   who
                              > >   > > would be able to keep themselves very busy as "coaches." 
                              One
                              > >   very
                              > >   > > interesting new area is heart rate variability (based
                              either
                              > on
                              > >   > > EKG/ecg or on a finger pulse sensor), which seems to be
                              > important
                              > >   > in
                              > >   > > reducing the potential for heart attacks, etc.  The process
                              > of
                              > >   > > learning to increase your heart rate variability apparently
                              > >   > involves
                              > >   > > learning to be less angry.  I don't really understand the
                              > whole
                              > >   > > psychophysiology of it, but there is a website,
                              > >   www.heartmath.com,
                              > >   > > that I think some of us might find interesting to check
                              out. 
                              > >   > >
                              > >   > > Nevertheless, I really hope these side excursions do not
                              > distract
                              > >   > us
                              > >   > > from accomplishing our main purpose of developing the
                              openEEG
                              > >   > system.
                              > >   > > --Jim Peterson
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >   To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > >   buildcheapeeg-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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                            • peterson@discover-net.net
                              ... I don t think there is much point in getting above temperatures like this. ... Of course you can reach this state easily. You re an experienced meditator,
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jul 15, 2001
                                --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                                > hi
                                > first ,when i do temp bfb i usualy can get to around 96.6F -97.1F
                                > there is a reason to try for more ?

                                I don't think there is much point in getting above temperatures like
                                this.

                                > i feel somewhat relaxed , but it's not such a unique thing-
                                > i can meditate or just calm myself down to get to this , i think .
                                > so maybe for this bfb i don't need .
                                >
                                Of course you can reach this state easily. You're an experienced
                                meditator, and long ago learned everything temperature training might
                                have to teach you. Think of temp. training as "training wheels" for
                                beginners who have no experience of self-regulation. These folk, and
                                they are the majority of humanity, have virtually no self-regulatory
                                skill, and the temp training is an excellent way to get them started
                                on the path.

                                > but again - for most people - how usefull is temp bfb, how much it
                                > attracts people to bfb ? what the change most people experience
                                after
                                > this ? is like that's the first time the feel the relaxtion
                                response
                                > or know how to go there ?
                                > what prevent temp bfb becoming very popular ?
                                >
                                > many question , but i hope theyle be useful
                                >
                                The people I have trained on temperature had little or no prior
                                experience with the Relaxation Response. Thermal training helped
                                them get there faster than they otherwise would have. They enjoy the
                                experience and begin using the relaxation skill in their daily lives,
                                and soon they have outgrown their need for the thermometer because
                                they have learned how to get there by themselves.
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