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electrodes

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  • yaniv_vi@yahoo.com
    could somebody check what s the standard electrodes connector . where to get it from, and how much t costs -so wwe ll have a definition and source ? i tried to
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 7, 2000
      could somebody check what's the standard electrodes connector .
      where to get it from, and how much t costs -so wwe'll have a
      definition and source ?
      i tried to did it on time , but i didn't sucseed very well.

      thanks
      yaniv v.
    • Moritz v. Buttlar
      Hi ! Today I scanned my electrodes so that you can have a look. Maybe the experts here can say if they think this kind of electrode is good. I hope you don´t
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 23 10:25 AM
        Hi !

        Today I scanned my electrodes so that you can have a look. Maybe the experts
        here can say if they think this kind of electrode is good.
        I hope you don�t mind the attachment (80kb).

        Moritz


        --
        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
        Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-Development
        http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
      • peterson@discover-net.net
        ... the experts ... Vielleicht ko nnten Sie zwei Reisszwecken, mit Drahten an die Ko pfe gelo tet, benu tzen. Das Blut wu rde ein guten Kontakt machen.--Jim
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 23 4:18 PM
          --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi !
          >
          > Today I scanned my electrodes so that you can have a look. Maybe
          the experts
          > here can say if they think this kind of electrode is good.
          > I hope you don´t mind the attachment (80kb).
          >
          > Moritz

          Vielleicht ko"nnten Sie zwei Reisszwecken, mit Drahten an die Ko"pfe
          gelo"tet, benu"tzen. Das Blut wu"rde ein guten Kontakt machen.--Jim
        • peterson@discover-net.net
          ... Ko pfe ... Actually, Moritz, I don t know how to tell how effective your electrodes might be just from looking at them. The real issues are, 1) do they
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 24 6:42 PM
            --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
            > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi !
            > >
            > > Today I scanned my electrodes so that you can have a look. Maybe
            > the experts
            > > here can say if they think this kind of electrode is good.
            > > I hope you don´t mind the attachment (80kb).
            > >
            > > Moritz
            >
            > Vielleicht ko"nnten Sie zwei Reisszwecken, mit Drahten an die
            Ko"pfe
            > gelo"tet, benu"tzen. Das Blut wu"rde ein guten Kontakt machen.--Jim

            Actually, Moritz, I don't know how to tell how effective your
            electrodes might be just from looking at them. The real issues are,
            1) do they make adequate contact (say, not over 10 or 20 K ohms), and
            are they comfortable enough to be worn for a half hour or so at a
            time? --Jim
          • Rob Sacks
            Hi Moritz, It looks like your electrodes require a saline electrolyte, like many electrodes in use today for neurofeedback. I d like to suggest that
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 24 8:15 PM
              Hi Moritz,

              It looks like your electrodes require a saline
              electrolyte, like many electrodes in use today
              for neurofeedback.

              I'd like to suggest that neurofeedback will
              never be popular until better electrodes are
              invented. Both types in current use -- saline and
              disk -- are too messy and inconvenient. Nobody
              except a small number of hard-core hobbyists
              will ever be willing to put up with them.

              The East3 company, which seems be making the
              most sophisticated attempt to date to bring
              neurofeedback to the mass market, seems to
              agree with this. Their new machine has been
              introduced with a new type of electrode (actually,
              they call it a "sensor") which is supposed to be
              more convenient than disk or saline.

              For a picture of East3's sensor, see
              http://east3.com/technology_sensors.html

              I'd like to propose a challenge for you and other
              engineers in the group: invent a new type of
              electrode for neurofeedback that requires no
              electrolyte.

              The goal (an ideal goal) would be a headset
              that is as easy to put on as the headset of a
              Walkman.

              Regards,

              Rob




              ----- Original Message -----
              > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi !
              > >
              > > Today I scanned my electrodes so that you can have a look. Maybe
              > the experts
              > > here can say if they think this kind of electrode is good.
              > > I hope you don´t mind the attachment (80kb).
              > >
              > > Moritz



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • yaniv_vi@yahoo.com
              hi before anybody starts to think how to invent a new electrode , could somebody please make a summary of all current electrodes techniques availble today ,
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 25 7:17 AM
                hi
                before anybody starts to think how to invent a new electrode ,
                could somebody please make a summary of all current electrodes
                techniques availble today , with pluses minuses , links etc .
                and maybe some info on the design of electrodes .
                then the group could start inventing .

                also it would be good to form contact with people who do this .
                maybe at universitis or companies.

                and also interest some bioengineers in this ?

                sincerly
                yaniv v.
                --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> wrote:
                > Hi Moritz,
                >
                > It looks like your electrodes require a saline
                > electrolyte, like many electrodes in use today
                > for neurofeedback.
                >
                > I'd like to suggest that neurofeedback will
                > never be popular until better electrodes are
                > invented. Both types in current use -- saline and
                > disk -- are too messy and inconvenient. Nobody
                > except a small number of hard-core hobbyists
                > will ever be willing to put up with them.
                >
                > The East3 company, which seems be making the
                > most sophisticated attempt to date to bring
                > neurofeedback to the mass market, seems to
                > agree with this. Their new machine has been
                > introduced with a new type of electrode (actually,
                > they call it a "sensor") which is supposed to be
                > more convenient than disk or saline.
                >
                > For a picture of East3's sensor, see
                > http://east3.com/technology_sensors.html
                >
                > I'd like to propose a challenge for you and other
                > engineers in the group: invent a new type of
                > electrode for neurofeedback that requires no
                > electrolyte.
                >
                > The goal (an ideal goal) would be a headset
                > that is as easy to put on as the headset of a
                > Walkman.
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Rob
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Hi !
                > > >
                > > > Today I scanned my electrodes so that you can have a look. Maybe
                > > the experts
                > > > here can say if they think this kind of electrode is good.
                > > > I hope you don´t mind the attachment (80kb).
                > > >
                > > > Moritz
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • peterson@discover-net.net
                ... I, for one, had been completely unaware of this company and its technology. It would really be a good idea for everyone to have a look at it. They may
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 25 6:02 PM
                  --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The East3 company, which seems be making the
                  > > most sophisticated attempt to date to bring
                  > > neurofeedback to the mass market, seems to
                  > > agree with this. Their new machine has been
                  > > introduced with a new type of electrode (actually,
                  > > they call it a "sensor") which is supposed to be
                  > > more convenient than disk or saline.
                  > >
                  > > For a picture of East3's sensor, see
                  > > http://east3.com/technology_sensors.html
                  > >

                  I, for one, had been completely unaware of this company and its
                  technology. It would really be a good idea for everyone to have a
                  look at it. They may have solved the electrode problem once and for
                  all. I wonder if they'd sell them, how much, etc. I'm afraid,
                  though that they are very likely to see us as competitors.


                  > > Regards,
                  > >
                  > > Rob
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi !
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Today I scanned my electrodes so that you can have a look.
                  Maybe
                  > > > the experts
                  > > > > here can say if they think this kind of electrode is good.
                  > > > > I hope you don´t mind the attachment (80kb).
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Moritz
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Rob Sacks
                  Hi Jim, ... In addition to the address I posted earlier, the company has a second website that s aimed more at marketing the device to consumers. You might
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 25 7:05 PM
                    Hi Jim,

                    > I, for one, had been completely unaware of this company
                    > and its technology. It would really be a good idea for
                    > everyone to have a look at it.

                    In addition to the address I posted earlier, the
                    company has a second website that's aimed
                    more at marketing the device to consumers. You
                    might want to look at that one also.

                    http://www.attention.com

                    > They may have solved the electrode problem once and for
                    > all. I wonder if they'd sell them, how much, etc.

                    Their website used to say (maybe still does) that they've
                    applied for a patent on the electrodes. I just did a quick
                    search to see if the patent has issued and found something
                    else that may be equally relevant.

                    A company called Physiometrix (which makes
                    specialized EEG equipment for monitoring anesthesia
                    levels during surgery) got a patent last October that
                    discloses "Braille-tip electrodes" that incorporate a
                    gel reservoir. I don't know how East3's design works,
                    but judging from the illustration on East3's site, it
                    could be similar to Physiometrix's.

                    If anybody wants to take a look at the patent, it's
                    U.S. patent number 6,128,521. (Folks can look up
                    it up on the U.S. Patent Office website at
                    http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html.)

                    Regards,

                    Rob


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <peterson@...>
                    To: <buildcheapeeg@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 9:02 PM
                    Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: electrodes


                    --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The East3 company, which seems be making the
                    > > most sophisticated attempt to date to bring
                    > > neurofeedback to the mass market, seems to
                    > > agree with this. Their new machine has been
                    > > introduced with a new type of electrode (actually,
                    > > they call it a "sensor") which is supposed to be
                    > > more convenient than disk or saline.
                    > >
                    > > For a picture of East3's sensor, see
                    > > http://east3.com/technology_sensors.html
                    > >

                    I, for one, had been completely unaware of this company and its
                    technology. It would really be a good idea for everyone to have a
                    look at it. They may have solved the electrode problem once and for
                    all. I wonder if they'd sell them, how much, etc. I'm afraid,
                    though that they are very likely to see us as competitors.


                    > > Regards,
                    > >
                    > > Rob
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi !
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Today I scanned my electrodes so that you can have a look.
                    Maybe
                    > > > the experts
                    > > > > here can say if they think this kind of electrode is good.
                    > > > > I hope you don´t mind the attachment (80kb).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Moritz
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



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                  • peterson@discover-net.net
                    ... Rob--Actually, I did track my way through to this site, and I find what they re doing to be very interesting. I see they re also talking about peak
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 26 11:28 AM
                      --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> wrote:
                      > Hi Jim,
                      >
                      > > I, for one, had been completely unaware of this company
                      > > and its technology. It would really be a good idea for
                      > > everyone to have a look at it.
                      >
                      > In addition to the address I posted earlier, the
                      > company has a second website that's aimed
                      > more at marketing the device to consumers. You
                      > might want to look at that one also.
                      >
                      > http://www.attention.com

                      Rob--Actually, I did track my way through to this site, and I find
                      what they're doing to be very interesting. I see they're also
                      talking about peak performance, which would be a natural for the kind
                      of equipment they seem to have here.

                      >
                      > A company called Physiometrix (which makes
                      > specialized EEG equipment for monitoring anesthesia
                      > levels during surgery) got a patent last October that
                      > discloses "Braille-tip electrodes" that incorporate a
                      > gel reservoir. I don't know how East3's design works,
                      > but judging from the illustration on East3's site, it
                      > could be similar to Physiometrix's.
                      >
                      > If anybody wants to take a look at the patent, it's
                      > U.S. patent number 6,128,521. (Folks can look up
                      > it up on the U.S. Patent Office website at
                      > http://www.uspto.gov/patft/index.html.)
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Rob
                      >
                      Rob--Thanks for this one too. I haven't searched it out yet, but
                      will when I get a few minutes.--Jim
                    • Waldemar Neto
                      Most of professional equipment usually has an electrode tester , which we can use for test or include in our cheapEeg Aparatus : the measures of resistance
                      Message 10 of 16 , May 21, 2001
                        Most of professional equipment usually has an electrode tester , which we can use for test or include in our
                        cheapEeg "Aparatus" : 
                        the  measures of resistance of each electrode  shall be less than 3 kOhms (from ground in monopolar derivation ) -  preferably less than 2 kOhms .
                        In a few cases where the signal is very weak it mays be necessary less than 1 kOhm - the ideal - ( like "brain silence"  by tumors or CET,  extremely fat bald skin, anencephalia and other  )
                         
                        Do you think that would  be  interesting to include a little level ( Ohmmeter ) with LED activated threshold  for that electrode levels ?
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:29 PM
                        Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: electrodes

                        --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., jiva@h... wrote:
                        >
                        > > > ...
                        > > > > 2) i wonder if the choice of electrodes might influence
                        > > > >    the issue?
                        > > >
                        > > > Different electrode types might have different impedances,
                        >     because. R and C parts of the impedance will vary depending
                        on   
                        >     electrode area, material and used electrolyte / conductive gel.

                        > > Sometimes it's hard to get the same impedance out of the same
                        > > electrode on two different scalps, or even on 2 different spots
                        on
                        > > the same scalp.
                        >
                        > Would any of the list members who work with electrodes care to
                        > choose which to use for this project?

                        I think that this electrode issue is going to turn out to be less
                        critical than everybody thinks. I've heard of people mixing tin and
                        silver electrodes (10 mm disk kind) in the same montage, and people
                        commonly change from all-tin to all-silver or gold with the same
                        equipment. The trick is to get the same impedance at all the
                        electrodes in the montage.  I think that just about any kind of
                        electrode you pick will work.  There is probably a lot more impedance
                        variation between the bald, exposed skin on top of my head at Cz and
                        the skin at my haired-over mastoid process behind my ear than there
                        is between any two different electrode types you are likely to see in
                        common use.  Just choose something and go with it.


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                        buildcheapeeg-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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                      • Waldemar Neto
                        Most of professional equipment usually has an electrode tester , which we can use for test or include in our cheapEeg Aparatus : the measures of resistance
                        Message 11 of 16 , May 21, 2001
                          Most of professional equipment usually has an electrode tester , which we can use for test or include in our
                          cheapEeg "Aparatus" : 
                          the  measures of resistance of each electrode  shall be less than 3 kOhms (from ground in monopolar derivation ) -  preferably less than 2 kOhms .
                          In a few cases where the signal is very weak it mays be necessary less than 1 kOhm - the ideal - ( like "brain silence"  by tumors or CET,  extremely fat bald skin, anencephalia and other  )
                           
                          Do you think that would  be  interesting to include a little level ( Ohmmeter ) with LED activated threshold  for that electrode levels ?
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:29 PM
                          Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: electrodes

                          --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., jiva@h... wrote:
                          >
                          > > > ...
                          > > > > 2) i wonder if the choice of electrodes might influence
                          > > > >    the issue?
                          > > >
                          > > > Different electrode types might have different impedances,
                          >     because. R and C parts of the impedance will vary depending
                          on   
                          >     electrode area, material and used electrolyte / conductive gel.

                          > > Sometimes it's hard to get the same impedance out of the same
                          > > electrode on two different scalps, or even on 2 different spots
                          on
                          > > the same scalp.
                          >
                          > Would any of the list members who work with electrodes care to
                          > choose which to use for this project?

                          I think that this electrode issue is going to turn out to be less
                          critical than everybody thinks. I've heard of people mixing tin and
                          silver electrodes (10 mm disk kind) in the same montage, and people
                          commonly change from all-tin to all-silver or gold with the same
                          equipment. The trick is to get the same impedance at all the
                          electrodes in the montage.  I think that just about any kind of
                          electrode you pick will work.  There is probably a lot more impedance
                          variation between the bald, exposed skin on top of my head at Cz and
                          the skin at my haired-over mastoid process behind my ear than there
                          is between any two different electrode types you are likely to see in
                          common use.  Just choose something and go with it.


                          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          buildcheapeeg-unsubscribe@egroups.com



                          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                        • Waldemar Neto
                          Most of professional equipment usually has an electrode tester , which we can use for test or include in our cheapEeg Aparatus : the measures of resistance
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 21, 2001
                            Most of professional equipment usually has an electrode tester , which we can use for test or include in our
                            cheapEeg "Aparatus" : 
                            the  measures of resistance of each electrode  shall be less than 3 kOhms (from ground in monopolar derivation ) -  preferably less than 2 kOhms .
                            In a few cases where the signal is very weak it mays be necessary less than 1 kOhm - the ideal - ( like "brain silence"  by tumors or CET,  extremely fat bald skin, anencephalia and other  )
                             
                            Do you think that would  be  interesting to include a little level ( Ohmmeter ) with LED activated threshold  for that electrode levels ?
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Monday, May 21, 2001 7:29 PM
                            Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: electrodes

                            --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., jiva@h... wrote:
                            >
                            > > > ...
                            > > > > 2) i wonder if the choice of electrodes might influence
                            > > > >    the issue?
                            > > >
                            > > > Different electrode types might have different impedances,
                            >     because. R and C parts of the impedance will vary depending
                            on   
                            >     electrode area, material and used electrolyte / conductive gel.

                            > > Sometimes it's hard to get the same impedance out of the same
                            > > electrode on two different scalps, or even on 2 different spots
                            on
                            > > the same scalp.
                            >
                            > Would any of the list members who work with electrodes care to
                            > choose which to use for this project?

                            I think that this electrode issue is going to turn out to be less
                            critical than everybody thinks. I've heard of people mixing tin and
                            silver electrodes (10 mm disk kind) in the same montage, and people
                            commonly change from all-tin to all-silver or gold with the same
                            equipment. The trick is to get the same impedance at all the
                            electrodes in the montage.  I think that just about any kind of
                            electrode you pick will work.  There is probably a lot more impedance
                            variation between the bald, exposed skin on top of my head at Cz and
                            the skin at my haired-over mastoid process behind my ear than there
                            is between any two different electrode types you are likely to see in
                            common use.  Just choose something and go with it.


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                            buildcheapeeg-unsubscribe@egroups.com



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                          • Andres Calderon
                            A very interesting electrode type: The Active Electrodes : http://www.biosemi.com/publications/artikel1.htm http://www.biosemi.com/active_electrode.htm
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 28, 2002
                            • sleeper75se
                              ... Hi Andres, Yes, they are very good. The hardware people on this list are aware of those, but thanks anyway! :-) For simplicity, I think we ve decided not
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 28, 2002
                                --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "Andres Calderon" <andresfc@i...> wrote:
                                >
                                > A very interesting electrode type:
                                >
                                > The Active Electrodes :
                                >
                                > http://www.biosemi.com/publications/artikel1.htm

                                Hi Andres,

                                Yes, they are very good. The hardware people on this list are aware
                                of those, but thanks anyway! :-)

                                For simplicity, I think we've decided not to build them. Also, the
                                risk of shortcircuits (or electrocution) is higher if the circuitry
                                is close to water or electrolyte.

                                Regards,

                                Andreas
                              • DAVE
                                Has anyone built an eeg using a national instruments daq card... ? and using labview ? I am considering it.....any thoughts ot there ? Dave
                                Message 15 of 16 , Nov 5, 2003
                                  Has anyone built an eeg using a national instruments daq card... ?
                                  and using labview ?

                                  I am considering it.....any thoughts ot there ?

                                  Dave
                                • Moritz von Buttlar
                                  ... Labview is a good idea. But with the modularEEG you don t need an extra DAQ card. The problem with the DAQ card is electric safety. Most of them don t have
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Nov 6, 2003
                                    Am Mittwoch, 5. November 2003 23:25 schrieb DAVE:
                                    > Has anyone built an eeg using a national instruments daq card... ?
                                    > and using labview ?
                                    >
                                    > I am considering it.....any thoughts ot there ?

                                    Labview is a good idea. But with the modularEEG you don't need an extra DAQ
                                    card. The problem with the DAQ card is electric safety. Most of them don't
                                    have isolation amplifiers build in. Also, they're expensive. We try to make
                                    cheap eegs.

                                    Moritz
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