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Re: Hardware status (cheapeeg)

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  • e_e_ling@hotmail.com
    Moritz Thanks for your detailed reply, I am now using your information for the news page. Does IrDA mean the eeg can only be used with a notebook pc? If that
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 1, 2001
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      Moritz

      Thanks for your detailed reply, I am now using your information for
      the news page.

      Does IrDA mean the eeg can only be used with a notebook pc? If that
      is the case, I think it would really restrict public interest in the
      system as most people have desktop PCs. The brainmaster works on a
      desktop so for most desktop owners it would be cheaper to buy a
      brainmaster for their existing pc ($1000) than to buy our system and a
      new notebook ($2000?). Did I understand you correctly or can IrDA be
      used with desktops?

      I agree that we need to fulfil some kind of safety criteria, but maybe
      it doesn't have to be done immediately. As long as the eeg is safe,
      i.e. won't blow up/electrocute us, it should be ok for us each to own
      a test version for a few weeks; then we can make further improvements
      to the design and research safety standards before releasing it to the
      public... what do people think?

      As for the manufacturers of expensive EEG and the pharmaceutical
      companies... of course they won't like our cheapeeg! So yes, we have
      to be careful, but we have to remember one thing: an EEG provides
      information. It measures brainwaves. That's it. It has no effect on
      the user at all, unless that user actively engages in biofeedback
      training. I don't believe biofeedback can have any harmful
      consequences but in any case it is the user's choice, so I really
      don't think we should be worried about this.

      What are "mignon NiMH" batteries? I did a web search and all the
      matching sites were in Germany - is it a german battery? Will this be
      a problem for the rest of us?

      Finally, you mentioned you were in discussion with an electrode
      supplier. What kind of electrodes are you thinking of using? Is it
      possible to use flextrodes (from Brainmaster) which require no gel?

      Regards

      Eric

      > There are also people who might not like our
      > cheapeeg. (The manufacturers of expensive EEG maybe or the pharam
      industry as
      > well)

      --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi !
      >
      > I´m sending you now the current status of the hardware (the part I´m
      working on)
      > Joerg will probably do the same.
      >
      > I´m trying now to implement IrDA. It´s quite difficult and I´m not
      sure yet if
      > it will work and whether it´s a good idea in the first place.
      > The alternative would be to use very good optocouplers and connect
      the EEG by
      > cable to the computer. This is a safety issue. If we use IrDA nobody
      can make
      > serious mistakes by connecting something wrongly. Many small
      notebook computers
      > are equipped with IrDA connectors, but many desktop PC´s aren´t.
      > We have to find out what the people want :)
      > And also what kind of safety norm we have to fulfill if the eeg
      should ever be
      > manufactured and sold. We really should try to find somebody who has
      knowledge
      > about all the legal issues we face with our project.
      >
      > What do we have to write on the website in order to make sure that
      we don´t
      > get into trouble if somebody gets hurt when trying to build the
      cheapeeg from
      > our plans ? Or if somebody claims that he got schizophrenia by using
      our device
      > ?
      > I don´t think it´ll ever happen but there are quite ignorant people
      > on this planet....
      > There are also people who might not like our
      > cheapeeg. (The manufacturers of expensive EEG maybe or the pharam
      industry as
      > well)
      >
      > I´m also trying to add a very good AD converter featuring 20bit /
      25kHz
      > (ADS1250). This allows a better dynamic range. The ADC also includes
      a digitally
      > programmable amplifier stage. Therefore we can control the
      amplification by
      > software (no more manual adjustment necessary). It costs only 6$ and
      is one of
      > the best ADC available. I know that 20bit aren´t really necessary.
      But the
      > additional bits can be used for amplification as well (just shift
      the result to
      > the left and you get an amplification by 2). Our design probably
      won´t be good
      > enough to get 20bit resolution, but maybe 18bit-16bit.
      >
      > Further changes to the current design:
      >
      > - battery supply (4 mignon NiMH batteries), no more DC/DC converter
      that brings
      > noise and is expensive and has only 1000V isolation. This will allow
      about 8hrs
      > continual operation.
      >
      > - New microcontroller: Ubicom (former Scenix) 50Mips
      microcontroller. Costs the
      > same as the Atmel and IrDA stack is available for download from
      Ubicom. That´s
      > why I´m quite sure the IrDA part will work sometime :). It´s 5 times
      faster than
      > the Atmel microcontroller.
      >
      > Right now I´m working on a CNC (computer numerical control) machine
      which can
      > automaticly manufacture printed circuit boards. It´s controlled by
      my PC.
      > Therefore I´ll be able to design the board on my PC and then
      manufacture it
      > automatically.
      >
      > Software: IMHO all the software designed for the EEG should be
      > Gnu-public-licensed. Only if we have a complete open software source
      code,
      > people will start writing their own improvements for the software.
      > It would be good if we had something like the Gnu-license for the
      hardware part
      > as well.
      >
      > The prototype by Joerg that´s already working features:
      >
      > - RS232 connection using opto-isolation
      > - 2 channels / 10 bit (using the µC-internal ADC)
      > - works with PC-Software by Rob Sacks
      > - Power supply with DC/DC converter
      > - it works :) !!!
      >
      > The new philosophy is:
      >
      > We want to separate the analog and digital part. This will allow
      enhancement of
      > the analog/digital parts separately without the need to redesign
      the whole
      > system.
      >
      > Joerg developed the state machine for EEG/PC communication. This
      protocol
      > should also be published on the website. It allows programmers to
      communicate
      > with our device.
      >
      > If you want me to, I can buy the website. You can send me some bucks
      by post
      > if you want to chip in. Regarding the name: let´s start a new vote.
      Is it
      > possible to allow 2 votes for everybody ?
      >
      > Maybe Joerg can send some photographs of his design. Maybe we could
      include
      > a to-do list on the website to recruit people ? And a list of the
      people
      > already involoved with email-addresses and a description of what
      they are doing
      > ?
      >
      > Write me if you want more information about the hardware design.
      >
      > Moritz
      >
      >
      > --
      >
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      ----
      > Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-Development
      > http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
    • peterson@discover-net.net
      Eric & Company--A couple of thoughts: First, on the issue of safety--it may very well be possible for someone to come to harm with brainwave training. For
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 1, 2001
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        Eric & Company--A couple of thoughts:
        First, on the issue of safety--it may very well be possible for
        someone to come to harm with brainwave training. For example, Theta
        is reported by some to be a somewhat seizure-genic state, so a person
        (such as an epileptic) who increases his theta production may be
        putting himself at somewhat higher risk of seizures. Also, people
        with traumatic histories who do alpha-theta training may increase the
        likelihood of getting flashbacks or other highly unpleasant PTSD
        symptoms. These are very useful effects when they occur in therapy,
        but can be quite rough on someone who doesn't know what they are or
        why they are happening.
        Second, on the IR versus optic isolation issue, I agree that IR
        may be a problem for some people, although I guess that there are
        ways of getting a desktop to work with an IR keyboard, etc. How
        expensive is an add-on like this? Anybody know?

        --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., e_e_ling@h... wrote:
        > Moritz
        >
        > Thanks for your detailed reply, I am now using your information for
        > the news page.
        >
        > Does IrDA mean the eeg can only be used with a notebook pc? If
        that
        > is the case, I think it would really restrict public interest in
        the
        > system as most people have desktop PCs. The brainmaster works on a
        > desktop so for most desktop owners it would be cheaper to buy a
        > brainmaster for their existing pc ($1000) than to buy our system
        and a
        > new notebook ($2000?). Did I understand you correctly or can IrDA
        be
        > used with desktops?
        >
        > I agree that we need to fulfil some kind of safety criteria, but
        maybe
        > it doesn't have to be done immediately. As long as the eeg is
        safe,
        > i.e. won't blow up/electrocute us, it should be ok for us each to
        own
        > a test version for a few weeks; then we can make further
        improvements
        > to the design and research safety standards before releasing it to
        the
        > public... what do people think?
        >
        > As for the manufacturers of expensive EEG and the pharmaceutical
        > companies... of course they won't like our cheapeeg! So yes, we
        have
        > to be careful, but we have to remember one thing: an EEG provides
        > information. It measures brainwaves. That's it. It has no effect
        on
        > the user at all, unless that user actively engages in biofeedback
        > training. I don't believe biofeedback can have any harmful
        > consequences but in any case it is the user's choice, so I really
        > don't think we should be worried about this.
        >
        > What are "mignon NiMH" batteries? I did a web search and all the
        > matching sites were in Germany - is it a german battery? Will this
        be
        > a problem for the rest of us?
        >
        > Finally, you mentioned you were in discussion with an electrode
        > supplier. What kind of electrodes are you thinking of using? Is
        it
        > possible to use flextrodes (from Brainmaster) which require no gel?
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > Eric
        >
      • e_e_ling@hotmail.com
        OK, I stand corrected - neurofeedback *can* be bad for you. I stick by my original point though, someone has a seizure through eeg training has *chosen* to
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 1, 2001
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          OK, I stand corrected - neurofeedback *can* be bad for you. I stick
          by my original point though, someone has a seizure through eeg
          training has *chosen* to use the eeg information for neurofeedback. I
          don't think that person has the right to blame the machine or the
          manufacturers, as the eeg is only providing information. Imagine if a
          sportsman used a heart-rate monitor to see how high he could get his
          heart-rate up, and had a heart attack. Can he blame the
          manufacturers? I think not!

          Thanks for the points though, and I'll stand back on the technical
          issues as I don't know what I'm talking about! I would say, however,
          that I believe we should aim to produce a device that everyone can
          use, not just those with the right hardware.

          Regards

          Eric

          --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
          > Eric & Company--A couple of thoughts:
          > First, on the issue of safety--it may very well be possible for
          > someone to come to harm with brainwave training. For example, Theta
          > is reported by some to be a somewhat seizure-genic state, so a
          person
          > (such as an epileptic) who increases his theta production may be
          > putting himself at somewhat higher risk of seizures. Also, people
          > with traumatic histories who do alpha-theta training may increase
          the
          > likelihood of getting flashbacks or other highly unpleasant PTSD
          > symptoms. These are very useful effects when they occur in therapy,
          > but can be quite rough on someone who doesn't know what they are or
          > why they are happening.
          > Second, on the IR versus optic isolation issue, I agree that IR
          > may be a problem for some people, although I guess that there are
          > ways of getting a desktop to work with an IR keyboard, etc. How
          > expensive is an add-on like this? Anybody know?
        • lucas darten
          ... I have to agree, I think it is absolutely vital to have a common interface. If we use an interface that only a small percentage of users have, we might be
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 1, 2001
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            > Thanks for the points though, and I'll stand back on the
            > technical issues as I don't know what I'm talking about!  I
            > would say, however, that I believe we should aim to produce a
            > device that everyone can use, not just those with the right
            > hardware.
            > Regards
            > Eric
            I have to agree, I think it is absolutely vital to have a common interface. If we use an interface that only a small percentage of users have, we might be making a dead product.
             
            Lucas.
             
          • Moritz v. Buttlar
            ... Anybody here who could write some legal disclaimer text ? I think if we put the schematics in the net we should also include some kind of text just to make
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 2, 2001
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              Am Mon, 02 Apr 2001 schrieben Sie:
              > Eric & Company--A couple of thoughts:
              > First, on the issue of safety--it may very well be possible for
              > someone to come to harm with brainwave training. For example, Theta
              > is reported by some to be a somewhat seizure-genic state, so a person
              > (such as an epileptic) who increases his theta production may be
              > putting himself at somewhat higher risk of seizures. Also, people
              > with traumatic histories who do alpha-theta training may increase the
              > likelihood of getting flashbacks or other highly unpleasant PTSD
              > symptoms. These are very useful effects when they occur in therapy,
              > but can be quite rough on someone who doesn't know what they are or
              > why they are happening.

              Anybody here who could write some legal disclaimer text ? I think if we put the
              schematics in the net we should also include some kind of text just to make
              sure.

              > Second, on the IR versus optic isolation issue, I agree that IR
              > may be a problem for some people, although I guess that there are
              > ways of getting a desktop to work with an IR keyboard, etc. How
              > expensive is an add-on like this? Anybody know?

              There are IrDA Add-ons available. Most mainboards have an IrDA connector
              on board. You just have to buy a little box with the sensor and a cable and
              plug it into the mainboard. I think it costs 20-40$.

              Moritz

              --
              --------------------------------------------------------------------------
              Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-Development
              http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
            • rfphill@hotmail.com
              ... it ... In response to your question about flextrodes. A quick evaluation of this item and one might quickly realize how easily they can be constructed
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 2, 2001
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                You said:
                > Finally, you mentioned you were in discussion with an electrode
                > supplier. What kind of electrodes are you thinking of using? Is
                it
                > possible to use flextrodes (from Brainmaster) which require no gel?


                In response to your question about flextrodes. A quick evaluation of
                this item and one might quickly realize how easily they can be
                constructed with the right materials. The electrodes themselves are
                standard cup types wrapped in a sponge (I think a cotton felt). The
                electrode holder itself might be difficult to duplicate as it might
                be a custom design. But careful inspection could yield a few
                alternatives for the mechanically minded. The holders are by far the
                most engineered aspect of the headgear, and it's two pieces of
                plastic (not to belittle it by any way, I would buy Flextrodes in a
                second if 200 dollars were easy to come by). That's an
                oversimplification of course, but I think an mechanical engineer
                could find a alternative design using off the shelf items in any
                hardware store. Add elastic and velcro and viola! Again, I think
                it's creator did a great job of designing a simple but effective
                alternative to the goop methods.

                The idea of using an electrolyte soaked sponge as a substitute for a
                dollop of paste is not new is it? I'm asking. In my web searches in
                search of an alternative to paste/gels without the cost of
                Flextrodes, I think I've seen a few ideas that were similar.
                Brainmaster has simply packaged the idea up in a sensible device in a
                sensible manner.

                I'm no engineer and a relative newcomer to NF so take my comments
                with a grain of salt, I guess. I'm just envisioning a companion
                design doc illustrating the building of a cheap "flextrode"-type
                headgear using readily available items (to go along with a cheap eeg
                design doc).
              • Moritz v. Buttlar
                ... The electrodes I ordered are called EEG-Pilzelektrode gesintert . They have ... that can be wrapped around. This material can be soaked in saltwater. No
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 2, 2001
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                  Am Die, 03 Apr 2001 schrieben Sie:
                  > You said:
                  > > Finally, you mentioned you were in discussion with an electrode
                  > > supplier. What kind of electrodes are you thinking of using? Is
                  > it

                  The electrodes I ordered are called "EEG-Pilzelektrode gesintert". They have
                  the following shape:

                  | <--- this holder has a hole inside to plug in a cable
                  |
                  ------ <--- round (10mm) plate with special sponge-like material
                  that can be wrapped around. This material can be soaked in saltwater. No gel
                  needed !

                  Then there�s a headband with holes in it that can be wrapped around the head.
                  At the required position the holder part of the electrode can be put in the
                  hole of the headband.

                  Maybe I can send a picture when I get the electrodes. You can look at them (in
                  german) at http://www.lazina.de/page_d/page_ele/eeg2_ele.htm

                  About the website: Maybe we could start a manual voting. Everybody could send
                  his/her favorite 3 names to me and I count them. What do you think ?

                  Moritz
                  --
                  --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-Development
                  http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
                • Moritz v. Buttlar
                  ... Most PCs have conventional 9pin RS232 serial interfaces. If we use this - without any IrDA infrared communication - and use simple optocoupler-isolation,
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 4, 2001
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                    >> I
                    > > would say, however, that I believe we should aim to produce a
                    > > device that everyone can use, not just those with the right
                    > > hardware.
                    > > Regards
                    > > Eric
                    >
                    > I have to agree, I think it is absolutely vital to have a common interface. If we use an interface that only a small percentage of users have, we might be making a dead product.


                    Most PCs have conventional 9pin RS232 serial interfaces. If we use this -
                    without any IrDA infrared communication - and use simple optocoupler-isolation,
                    I�m not sure if the design would be safe enough to meet safety norms.
                    It would be possible to make a design that exists of two modules. One IrDA
                    module that can be connected to the PC and one EEG module. People who own
                    Notebooks with built-in IrDA don�t have to build the IrDA module.
                    It�s possible to buy the IrDA module for a normal PC in a computer store, it
                    costs approx. 20-30$.

                    What do you think ? Would it be too expensive to spend 30$ on an IrDA module ?
                    How many people have a notebook computer with IrDA in this group ?


                    Moritz


                    --
                    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-Development
                    http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
                  • peterson@discover-net.net
                    Just what is it you folks have against goop anyway? I ve been using electrodes with abrasive goop, with sticky goop, and with just plain gooey goop for
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 4, 2001
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                      Just what is it you folks have against "goop" anyway? I've been
                      using electrodes with abrasive goop, with sticky goop, and with just
                      plain gooey goop for years, and if the alternative is expensive wet
                      (rather than gooey) electrodes, I guess my patients (and I) will just
                      have to put up with goop for another bunch of years.
                      Jim


                      --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., rfphill@h... wrote:
                      > You said:
                      > > Finally, you mentioned you were in discussion with an electrode
                      > > supplier. What kind of electrodes are you thinking of using? Is
                      > it
                      > > possible to use flextrodes (from Brainmaster) which require no
                      gel?
                      >
                      >
                      > In response to your question about flextrodes. A quick evaluation
                      of
                      > this item and one might quickly realize how easily they can be
                      > constructed with the right materials. The electrodes themselves
                      are
                      > standard cup types wrapped in a sponge (I think a cotton felt).
                      The
                      > electrode holder itself might be difficult to duplicate as it might
                      > be a custom design. But careful inspection could yield a few
                      > alternatives for the mechanically minded. The holders are by far
                      the
                      > most engineered aspect of the headgear, and it's two pieces of
                      > plastic (not to belittle it by any way, I would buy Flextrodes in a
                      > second if 200 dollars were easy to come by). That's an
                      > oversimplification of course, but I think an mechanical engineer
                      > could find a alternative design using off the shelf items in any
                      > hardware store. Add elastic and velcro and viola! Again, I think
                      > it's creator did a great job of designing a simple but effective
                      > alternative to the goop methods.
                      >
                      > The idea of using an electrolyte soaked sponge as a substitute for
                      a
                      > dollop of paste is not new is it? I'm asking. In my web searches
                      in
                      > search of an alternative to paste/gels without the cost of
                      > Flextrodes, I think I've seen a few ideas that were similar.
                      > Brainmaster has simply packaged the idea up in a sensible device in
                      a
                      > sensible manner.
                      >
                      > I'm no engineer and a relative newcomer to NF so take my comments
                      > with a grain of salt, I guess. I'm just envisioning a companion
                      > design doc illustrating the building of a cheap "flextrode"-type
                      > headgear using readily available items (to go along with a cheap
                      eeg
                      > design doc).
                    • peterson@discover-net.net
                      ... interface. If we use an interface that only a small percentage of users have, we might be making a dead product. ... this - ... optocoupler-isolation, ...
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 4, 2001
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                        --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                        > >> I
                        > > > would say, however, that I believe we should aim to produce a
                        > > > device that everyone can use, not just those with the right
                        > > > hardware.
                        > > > Regards
                        > > > Eric
                        > >
                        > > I have to agree, I think it is absolutely vital to have a common
                        interface. If we use an interface that only a small percentage of
                        users have, we might be making a dead product.
                        >
                        >
                        > Most PCs have conventional 9pin RS232 serial interfaces. If we use
                        this -
                        > without any IrDA infrared communication - and use simple
                        optocoupler-isolation,
                        > I´m not sure if the design would be safe enough to meet safety
                        norms.
                        >
                        > What do you think ? Would it be too expensive to spend 30$ on an
                        IrDA module ?
                        > How many people have a notebook computer with IrDA in this group ?
                        >
                        >
                        > Moritz

                        I have 1 laptop with & 1 without IrDA & don't think $30 is
                        unreasonable, but it _is_ proabably a significant cost for some
                        people, especially considering how cheap the rest of the devide will
                        be. I think there are a lot of other machines on the market using
                        serial connections w. optic coupling. Rex Hartzell's Discovery
                        Engineering Inc. machine, for example. Lexicor connects their stuff
                        to the parallel port. As a non-geek, I don't know why you would want
                        to use serial rather than parallel, since I always though parallel
                        was inherently faster, carrying 8 bits at once instead of 1.
                        Jim
                      • rfphill@hotmail.com
                        I find it a pain when I m trying to place trodes on myself. I find that sometimes I move around and yank them from my head and have to start over again. I
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 4, 2001
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                          I find it a pain when I'm trying to place 'trodes on myself. I find
                          that sometimes I move around and yank them from my head and have to
                          start over again. I find sometimes that I look in the mirror, pull
                          hair back, abrade, swab, apply goop and get a bad connection. Oops!
                          I must have put the electrode a few millimeters away from the spot I
                          prepped... Who the f knows... Guess I'll start again, maybe this
                          time I'll get lucky and actually put the 'trode on the exact location
                          I prepped.

                          Sometimes I think, "Wow, I've got a spare 45 minutes, maybe I'll do
                          some training." Then I think, "Naw, it'll take me freakin 15 minutes
                          just to prep myself, forget it." Opportunity lost, game over. Hey,
                          at least I don't have to wash my hair again today. The only
                          conceivable benefit to baldness is not having to wash the trendy
                          10/20 "mousse" from my hair.

                          No, for the practitioner it's a no brainer, the goop method is not a
                          problem. For the home trainer, the flextrodes or a reasonable
                          facsimile is just what the doctor ordered. I can live with a little
                          saltwater in my hair, in a short time it's dry. Not da goop, not da
                          goop, gotta wash da goop out. So, add a wash, dry, set... Another
                          20 minutes and I look like I did when I started. I'm just not real
                          good at putting them on myself and keeping the whole process clean.
                          Not to mention I like the idea of some kind of head gear that can
                          make placement fairly consistent as well.

                          I ain't got anything against the goop, friend. But I only apply
                          these 'trodes to myself, and I'm looking for an easier way, thanks.
                          Not disrespectin' the goop, just supplying my opinion 'bout the
                          differences it will make in my simple little life (and maybe a few
                          others).

                          Now, cost is a whole other matter, which leads me back to my original
                          post. It seems that there is a way to build one on these
                          contraptions for a fraction of 200 clams...

                          It seems that I'm running a little low on Alpha... :-)



                          --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., peterson@d... wrote:
                          > Just what is it you folks have against "goop" anyway? I've been
                          > using electrodes with abrasive goop, with sticky goop, and with
                          just
                          > plain gooey goop for years, and if the alternative is expensive wet
                          > (rather than gooey) electrodes, I guess my patients (and I) will
                          just
                          > have to put up with goop for another bunch of years.
                          > Jim
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., rfphill@h... wrote:
                          > > You said:
                          > > > Finally, you mentioned you were in discussion with an electrode
                          > > > supplier. What kind of electrodes are you thinking of using?
                          Is
                          > > it
                          > > > possible to use flextrodes (from Brainmaster) which require no
                          > gel?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > In response to your question about flextrodes. A quick
                          evaluation
                          > of
                          > > this item and one might quickly realize how easily they can be
                          > > constructed with the right materials. The electrodes themselves
                          > are
                          > > standard cup types wrapped in a sponge (I think a cotton felt).
                          > The
                          > > electrode holder itself might be difficult to duplicate as it
                          might
                          > > be a custom design. But careful inspection could yield a few
                          > > alternatives for the mechanically minded. The holders are by far
                          > the
                          > > most engineered aspect of the headgear, and it's two pieces of
                          > > plastic (not to belittle it by any way, I would buy Flextrodes in
                          a
                          > > second if 200 dollars were easy to come by). That's an
                          > > oversimplification of course, but I think an mechanical engineer
                          > > could find a alternative design using off the shelf items in any
                          > > hardware store. Add elastic and velcro and viola! Again, I
                          think
                          > > it's creator did a great job of designing a simple but effective
                          > > alternative to the goop methods.
                          > >
                          > > The idea of using an electrolyte soaked sponge as a substitute
                          for
                          > a
                          > > dollop of paste is not new is it? I'm asking. In my web
                          searches
                          > in
                          > > search of an alternative to paste/gels without the cost of
                          > > Flextrodes, I think I've seen a few ideas that were similar.
                          > > Brainmaster has simply packaged the idea up in a sensible device
                          in
                          > a
                          > > sensible manner.
                          > >
                          > > I'm no engineer and a relative newcomer to NF so take my comments
                          > > with a grain of salt, I guess. I'm just envisioning a companion
                          > > design doc illustrating the building of a cheap "flextrode"-type
                          > > headgear using readily available items (to go along with a cheap
                          > eeg
                          > > design doc).
                        • Moritz v. Buttlar
                          ... My point is that we want to make a machine people can build by their own by using our plans. This is different from designing a product that will be
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 5, 2001
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                            > I have 1 laptop with & 1 without IrDA & don't think $30 is
                            > unreasonable, but it _is_ proabably a significant cost for some
                            > people, especially considering how cheap the rest of the devide will
                            > be. I think there are a lot of other machines on the market using
                            > serial connections w. optic coupling.

                            My point is that we want to make a machine people can build by their own by
                            using our plans. This is different from designing a product that will be
                            manufactured in a factory. If we want to recommend people to build their own
                            from our plans, we have to make sure that they choose the right housing, only
                            use exactly the same parts we used and so on. If they don�t follow our orders
                            100% or if they decide on their own that some of our safety options aren�t
                            necessary then the machine might be quite dangerous to use.
                            That�s why I think if we implement batteries and infrared data communications
                            people can make less mistakes when they build the device.

                            If we want to mass-produce most of the devices then it wouldn�t make much of a
                            difference.

                            > Rex Hartzell's Discovery
                            > Engineering Inc. machine, for example. Lexicor connects their stuff
                            > to the parallel port. As a non-geek, I don't know why you would want
                            > to use serial rather than parallel, since I always though parallel
                            > was inherently faster, carrying 8 bits at once instead of 1.

                            It�s because the serial port is fast enough for our purpose. It�s easier
                            to isolate because only 3 wires are necessary. And it doesn�t interfere with
                            printers. There are also more computer-brands equipped with standard RS232
                            ports then with parallel ports.


                            Moritz
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                            Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-Development
                            http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
                          • e_e_ling@hotmail.com
                            Moritz ... own by ... will be ... Is this our plan? If so, why are we doing this? The brainmaster designs are already free and cost $200 to build. I thought
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 5, 2001
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                              Moritz

                              --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                              > My point is that we want to make a machine people can build by their
                              own by
                              > using our plans. This is different from designing a product that
                              will be
                              > manufactured in a factory.

                              Is this our plan? If so, why are we doing this? The brainmaster
                              designs are already free and cost $200 to build. I thought that the
                              idea was to design a product and get it produced for us. Yaniv has
                              approached manufacturers about building it (although I don't know how
                              that's going). The only reason I haven't built a brainmaster myself
                              is that I am too stupid to understand the instructions! Is our eeg
                              for electronics experts only?

                              Eric
                            • peterson@discover-net.net
                              ... their ... the ... how ... myself ... Precisely. My development as an electronics geek came to a halt at about age 12, shortly after I figured out how to
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 5, 2001
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                                --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., e_e_ling@h... wrote:
                                > Moritz
                                >
                                > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                                > > My point is that we want to make a machine people can build by
                                their
                                > own by
                                > > using our plans. This is different from designing a product that
                                > will be
                                > > manufactured in a factory.
                                >
                                > Is this our plan? If so, why are we doing this? The brainmaster
                                > designs are already free and cost $200 to build. I thought that
                                the
                                > idea was to design a product and get it produced for us. Yaniv has
                                > approached manufacturers about building it (although I don't know
                                how
                                > that's going). The only reason I haven't built a brainmaster
                                myself
                                > is that I am too stupid to understand the instructions! Is our eeg
                                > for electronics experts only?
                                >
                                > Eric

                                Precisely. My development as an electronics geek came to a halt at
                                about age 12, shortly after I figured out how to wire an antenna, a
                                diode, a headphone and a ground in series to create a crude radio. I
                                want somebody to build these things for me. I would also hope to get
                                a bunch of them into the hands of non-technically inclined therapists
                                & others. The reason lots more people aren't using these things is
                                that they can't afford them. In about 2 qweeks I will be doing a 2-
                                day training for therapists on how to treat addictions & PTSD. They
                                will probably be going together to buy one DEI or Brainmaster or
                                Lexicor 2D that they can share.
                                --Jim
                              • Moritz v. Buttlar
                                Hi ! Maybe we should start a general discussion about this to get some new ideas and to see what everybody thinks. I thought the cheapeeg was meant as a
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 8, 2001
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                                  Hi !

                                  Maybe we should start a general discussion about this to
                                  get some new ideas and to see what everybody thinks.
                                  I thought the cheapeeg was meant as a do-it-yourself kit in order to avoid
                                  all kind of hassels associated with manufacturing and selling of medical
                                  equipment.

                                  If you sell a device you are the manufacturer and therefore responsible. If you
                                  sell the parts separately and the buyer assembles it, he�s the manufacturer and
                                  therefore responsible for the device.

                                  > > My point is that we want to make a machine people can build by their
                                  > own by
                                  > > using our plans. This is different from designing a product that
                                  > will be
                                  > > manufactured in a factory.
                                  >
                                  > Is this our plan? If so, why are we doing this? The brainmaster
                                  > designs are already free and cost $200 to build. I thought that the
                                  > idea was to design a product and get it produced for us. Yaniv has
                                  > approached manufacturers about building it (although I don't know how
                                  > that's going). The only reason I haven't built a brainmaster myself
                                  > is that I am too stupid to understand the instructions! Is our eeg
                                  > for electronics experts only?

                                  I didn�t know the brainmaster design is freely available. In my opinion it�s no
                                  big deal to get an eeg manufactured from our plans. There are a lot of companys
                                  around specialised in this: you send them the plan, wait a month and get a
                                  couple of hundreds (or thousands) of devices. Maybe financing it would be a
                                  problem. But in order to sell the devices legally it must be (at least in
                                  germany) tested by a special organization to comply to safety norms.
                                  That�s the expensive part ! You have to give it to somebody who certifies it.
                                  I think it costs maybe 10000$ or more. It also has to comply to electromagnetic
                                  norms (different test).
                                  After it has been certified the hardware design mustn�t be changed (or you have
                                  to certify it again).

                                  That�s how I think the system works. But I�m not an expert on this and I think
                                  our next step would be to find such an expert who could help us.

                                  Maybe we could distribute it from a country which doesn�t have such laws :)

                                  There�s also a special newsgroup about these topics.
                                  ( sci.engr.electrical.compliance)
                                  Maybe we should try to get help from there ?

                                  Moritz


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                                  Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-Development
                                  http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
                                • e_e_ling@hotmail.com
                                  A very important point, and I guess it s about time we addressed it. I found out about this project from reading through the brainmaster mailing list archives
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 8, 2001
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                                    A very important point, and I guess it's about time we addressed it.

                                    I found out about this project from reading through the brainmaster
                                    mailing list archives and seeing several of Yaniv's posts. Yaniv was
                                    asking why the price of a pre-built brainmaster was so high
                                    ($1000) when the designs were free. From what I understand, the
                                    original aims of this project were for a cheap, bre-built eeg to be
                                    available to the public.

                                    I think this should not be much of a problem. I am no expert in this
                                    field, but I believe that a product has to be officially certified if
                                    we are making some kind of claim, e.g. "this is a medical device", etc
                                    etc. The Brainmaster is registered for clinical use and that is why
                                    the cost is so high. If you want a certified, recognised piece of
                                    hardware, you buy a brainmaster. If all you want is to measure your
                                    brainwaves, you buy our EEG.

                                    Also, *we* would not be selling the product. Our concern is not to
                                    make money for ourselves, or to set ourselves up as some kind of
                                    organisation, but to make EEG equipment available to whoever wants one
                                    (including us). There are 40 of us in this group, all with an
                                    interest in EEG. If we decide to have 40 machines made by a factory
                                    for our personal use, there should be no legal problem. Nobody is
                                    "selling" the EEG. If this is true (and we should check) then it
                                    should be the same with 100, 500, 1000 people.

                                    By the way, what do you mean by a do-it-yourself kit? Is it something
                                    that only an electronics expert can put together, or something that
                                    anyone can do given a little time and effort? If an idiot like me
                                    could do it then I guess we don't need to get them pre-made!

                                    Regards

                                    Eric

                                    --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi !
                                    >
                                    > Maybe we should start a general discussion about this to
                                    > get some new ideas and to see what everybody thinks.
                                    > I thought the cheapeeg was meant as a do-it-yourself kit in order to
                                    avoid
                                    > all kind of hassels associated with manufacturing and selling of
                                    medical
                                    > equipment.
                                    >
                                    > If you sell a device you are the manufacturer and therefore
                                    responsible. If you
                                    > sell the parts separately and the buyer assembles it, he´s the
                                    manufacturer and
                                    > therefore responsible for the device.
                                    >
                                    > I didn´t know the brainmaster design is freely available. In my
                                    opinion it´s no
                                    > big deal to get an eeg manufactured from our plans. There are a lot
                                    of companys
                                    > around specialised in this: you send them the plan, wait a month and
                                    get a
                                    > couple of hundreds (or thousands) of devices. Maybe financing it
                                    would be a
                                    > problem. But in order to sell the devices legally it must be (at
                                    least in
                                    > germany) tested by a special organization to comply to safety norms.
                                    > That´s the expensive part ! You have to give it to somebody who
                                    certifies it.
                                    > I think it costs maybe 10000$ or more. It also has to comply to
                                    electromagnetic
                                    > norms (different test).
                                    > After it has been certified the hardware design mustn´t be changed
                                    (or you have
                                    > to certify it again).
                                  • Moritz v. Buttlar
                                    Hi ! ... Could you please point me to the free plans of the brainmaster ? I´m curious what kind of isolation (optocoupers) they´re using for safety. Moritz
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 9, 2001
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                                      Hi !

                                      > Is this our plan? If so, why are we doing this? The brainmaster
                                      > designs are already free and cost $200 to build. I thought that the

                                      Could you please point me to the free plans of the brainmaster ?
                                      I�m curious what kind of isolation (optocoupers) they�re using for safety.


                                      Moritz


                                      --
                                      --------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-Development
                                      http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
                                    • e_e_ling@hotmail.com
                                      Moritz, Apparently you have to subscribe to the brainmaster mailing list and ask for the plans... unfortunately they seem to have re-done threir website and I
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Apr 9, 2001
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                                        Moritz,

                                        Apparently you have to subscribe to the brainmaster mailing list and
                                        ask for the plans... unfortunately they seem to have re-done threir
                                        website and I couldn't find details of the mailing list on there.
                                        Does anybody in this group have the brainmaster design plans? Does
                                        anybody know how to get on the mailing list?

                                        I don't know what an optocoupler is so I don't know if this is what
                                        you mean, but I remember that a home-build brainmaster must be used
                                        with a laptop pc for safety reasons because of the built-in
                                        transformer... or something. Does that help?

                                        Regards

                                        Eric

                                        --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                                        > Could you please point me to the free plans of the brainmaster ?
                                        > I´m curious what kind of isolation (optocoupers) they´re using for
                                        safety.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Moritz
                                      • jimmyb_101@yahoo.com
                                        ... IR ... connector ... cable and ... one example is sold by cyberguys.com. $40, they are not especially discount. It fits in a 3.5 drive bay. item 204 0535.
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Apr 25, 2001
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                                          --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > > Second, on the IR versus optic isolation issue, I agree that
                                          IR
                                          > > may be a problem for some people, although I guess that there are
                                          > > ways of getting a desktop to work with an IR keyboard, etc. How
                                          > > expensive is an add-on like this? Anybody know?
                                          >
                                          > There are IrDA Add-ons available. Most mainboards have an IrDA
                                          connector
                                          > on board. You just have to buy a little box with the sensor and a
                                          cable and
                                          > plug it into the mainboard. I think it costs 20-40$.
                                          >

                                          one example is sold by cyberguys.com. $40, they are not
                                          especially discount. It fits in a 3.5" drive bay.
                                          item 204 0535.
                                        • jiva@humboldt1.com
                                          Might I ask where the brainmaster plans are located? ... their ... how
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Apr 25, 2001
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                                            Might I ask where the brainmaster plans are located?

                                            --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., e_e_ling@h... wrote:
                                            > Moritz
                                            >
                                            > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                                            > > My point is that we want to make a machine people can build by
                                            their
                                            > own by
                                            > > using our plans. This is different from designing a product that
                                            > will be
                                            > > manufactured in a factory.
                                            >
                                            > Is this our plan? If so, why are we doing this? The brainmaster
                                            > designs are already free and cost $200 to build. I thought that the
                                            > idea was to design a product and get it produced for us. Yaniv has
                                            > approached manufacturers about building it (although I don't know
                                            how
                                            > that's going). The only reason I haven't built a brainmaster myself
                                            > is that I am too stupid to understand the instructions! Is our eeg
                                            > for electronics experts only?
                                            >
                                            > Eric
                                          • yaniv_vi@yahoo.com
                                            hi according to my knowldge our aim ( and i think is really possible ) is that people will buy the complete machine . yaniv ... that ... the ... has ... myself
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Apr 27, 2001
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                                              hi
                                              according to my knowldge our aim ( and i think is really possible )
                                              is that people will buy the complete machine .
                                              yaniv
                                              --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., jiva@h... wrote:
                                              > Might I ask where the brainmaster plans are located?
                                              >
                                              > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., e_e_ling@h... wrote:
                                              > > Moritz
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., Moritz v. Buttlar <info@b...> wrote:
                                              > > > My point is that we want to make a machine people can build by
                                              > their
                                              > > own by
                                              > > > using our plans. This is different from designing a product
                                              that
                                              > > will be
                                              > > > manufactured in a factory.
                                              > >
                                              > > Is this our plan? If so, why are we doing this? The brainmaster
                                              > > designs are already free and cost $200 to build. I thought that
                                              the
                                              > > idea was to design a product and get it produced for us. Yaniv
                                              has
                                              > > approached manufacturers about building it (although I don't know
                                              > how
                                              > > that's going). The only reason I haven't built a brainmaster
                                              myself
                                              > > is that I am too stupid to understand the instructions! Is our
                                              eeg
                                              > > for electronics experts only?
                                              > >
                                              > > Eric
                                            • jiva@humboldt1.com
                                              Judging by what I see at brainmaster, if you build and certify a medical device then you can only sell it to medical professionals.
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Apr 27, 2001
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                                                Judging by what I see at brainmaster, if you build and certify
                                                a medical device then you can only sell it to medical professionals.

                                                --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., yaniv_vi@y... wrote:
                                                > hi
                                                > according to my knowldge our aim ( and i think is really possible )
                                                > is that people will buy the complete machine .
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