- Jul 1, 2001--- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
>Let us simply be thankful that we don't have to rely on my
> Hi Peterson,
> I think whe (you and i) have a little comunication
> problem. I think (as a ducht man) i cannot express
> my-self clearly in englisch).
nonexistent knowledge of Dutch for communication.
> * i am not angry, why should I ????I apparently misunderstood the tone of what you wrote, and apologize.
> * Whe don't steal if whe would use Toms Paper.Why rewrite something that has already been done so well? We can at
> The things he wrote can be found everywhere on
> the net.
> * I wrote: eventual whe can make a reverent to Tom
> So whe would not steal from Tom. I think you don't
> understand me.
least link to it, and probably get permission to use it as is if we
provide a link to Tom's BM sites.
> * I did not steal anything.Of course not--but using it on our site without crediting it would be
stealing. I just didn't want us to ever "take the low road" on the
> *check-out: weird science, alternatieve science,Thanks--I've had some fun with these sites.
> keely-net, tesla, w. reich, orgone therapy, ruth
> brown (radionica), magnetic wave oscillator, etc..
> you will find a real battle of freedom there...you will
> find lots of cases about fda.
I do not hate or attack BM. Why ????
> I only pointing out that Tom has his own project.I certainly have no objection in principle to getting FDA
> Working with us could only replace the old BM.
> *If i am rigth, then the BM starded the same way as the
> *I respect Tom for what he has been doing all those
> years. Why do you think i cannot see that ?
> *whe are not concurent for at the moment. But if rs232
> would come to the marked, then BM would be to ex-
> pencive. People would by rs232.
> *I wrote about the time and money Tom invested.
> In fact, to point out that it is only fear to make
> some money !!!!!.(for him)
> * the BM project is nice, i like the project.
> In fact, i once asked if i still could have the
> technical details. they send me back my mail.
> with no detail or no answer nothing..
> * Peterson, i have the bleu print of the BM, in fact its
> a simple machine (old technology). So i know that the
> BM would be no match for rs232.
> Thats why i try to make it clear that if Tom would
> join us, whe could work toward a new EEG. Whe
> then could name it BM-2 or so. The reason for that
> is that a cheap (modern) machine with al lot of people
> working on it would damage the BM project.
> Tom would benefit from our group. If you read again
> you can see that i pointed out the benefits for both of
> us. I am not saying he need to...only that is would
> be in-logic to wait until a better machine comes.
> * You can also read that i wrote: whe could talk to Tom...
> * Even if there would be two project, why should i care.
> I did not attack Tom, only pointed out that all his work
> would be in danger because of a large group working
> for free, and building cheap machines.
> * I don't know if the group would like to build a EEG
> for professionals.
> * Today i found a site from an ex-FDA member who
> now offering help to people. (speed up fda)
> I wrote him al letter to find out more. If you don't make
> medical claims then how will you sell the system to
> Health-professionals ?. I will send his mail to the group.
certification, but really don't think it is necessary. The
professional market is tiny in comparison to the potential home-user
market. I don't know how many EEG-certified therapists there are in
the U.S., but bet that the number is not over 2,000. At this point in
our development, I would not want to see us putting a huge amount of
energy into getting FDA cert rather than releasing something for home
use as an educational device. And I will say thatI woiuld see no
particular problem in using an undertified machine in the clinic, as
long as it is a physically safe device. One can always say it is
being used as a psychoeducational tool. I train temperature all the
time with simple little thermometers & thermocouple devices that have
never been near an FDA certification process.
> *to avoid mis-interpretations in he future, i willFrans, I value your contributions very much. I really did not mean to
> not interfere with organisation, lega stuff anymore.
inhibit you in this way or to make you feel bad. I hope you will
continue to offer your thoughts.
> please forgive me if my englisch is not correct.available
> Regards, Frans
> From: peterson@d...
> To: buildcheapeeg@y...
> Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 8:42 PM
> Subject: [buildcheapeeg] Re: LEGAL/FDA
> --- In buildcheapeeg@y..., "frans" <f.smith@c...> wrote:
> > Hi Moritz,
> > I found the paper in files from canadian hackers !!!!
> > All the files had tho do with hacking and freaking, but
> > there where some files about electronics. I found two
> > files about biofeedback. The files where written by
> > Tom collura. (brainmaster). Whe from buildcheapeeg
> > are not bound to ask Tom for permission. In fact whe
> > could just re-write the paper, and eventual make a re-
> > verent to Tom Collura.
> Frans--You are generally a wonderful and idealistic fellow, but I
> believe you are wrong here. Why are you angry? Tom has put an
> immense amount of work into the BM project, made his design
> to others for years, did not steal anything from anybody, andlow-
> eventually developed his device into what is arguably the best
> cost EEG training device on the market. He continues to improveit,
> as witness the new version that handles coherence. If he makes afew
> $$ to offset the tremendous work he has done, good for him. Idon't
> really see us as in competition with him; we are filling adifferent
> niche. I also don't want to see us use other people's propertyourselves
> without permission. Let's find that article on the BM website if
> it's still there, and link to it; or otherwise, publish it
> only with Tom's permission and with a link to the BM home page.I
> have followed developments in the BM world for years, and havealways
> been impressed by Tom's character and generosity. And at somepoint
> in the next year, I expect that I will buy a BM, even though Ihave
> every hope for the success of our OpenEEG. There really need notbe
> a conflict between the two camps.corresponded
> > I don't think Tom would like to to help us. Not because
> > he don't want to, but the brainmaster is an other project.
> > It is still running (software). So our group will at the end
> > re-place the expencive and old brainmaster.
> Tom has no obligation to help us. Nevertheless, he is (or was; I
> haven't checked lately) a member of this group, and has
> with Yaniv.starded a
> > As a matter of fact, ideal would have been when Tom again
> new project for a new device. But he didfact
> > not do so. They (BM) starded software projects.
> > So when his project was running they had no reason to
> > develop a newer system. Then came others who
> > starded a new project (buildcheapeeg). You understand
> > that this could be the end of BM. Suppose if Tom had
> > contacted our group, then ther would be no problem, for
> > the rs232 could replace BM in time, lets say up-grade BM. In
> when Tom would be a member, whe wouldevil
> > have already a channel for marketing. RS232 would then
> > be the test-name, and BM could then promote the new
> > machine. So all BM users and new users could by a much
> > cheaper device. The software project from BM could then be
> compatible with rs232. Its a fact that an new
> > device is only so for some years, like a computer.
> > Tom did not joined the group, he could have done so.
> > I don't know if he likes the project, but he could know
> > that just as his old 486-pc would had to go because of
> > pentium, the BM would have to make place for rs232.
> > The succes of rs232 together with modern computers
> > (and lower cost for pc's), and better software could make
> > BM a second choice. for the machine uses old technolgy,
> > while rs232 is modern, at the same time the price is
> > about 800.00 US dollar !!!. No normal thinking man
> > would by a BM.
> > It seems that in the past the BM was patented. So some-
> > one (Tom) had to pay for the patend. Also for FDA
> > approvement, production, marketing etc..So a lot of in-
> > vestment. Is only fair then that Tom would have to ask
> > a price so as to earn back all the time and money.
> > Therefore a compleet new device, much cheaper would be but an
> concurent. (afther all, those man stardedneed
> > BFB/NFB al long time ago).
> > If Tom would think logic, he would participate in the
> > project. None of us would be against it. In fact, afther
> > all the basics (fda approvement, patent etc) Tom could
> > try to sell the system as the new BM. None of us need
> > to make a living out of it. In fact, whe would support Tom
> > where ever whe could. Make the sytem 100% compatible
> > with the BM-open sourche project etc.
> > Perhaps whe should talk with Tom about this, in time.
> > For me it is not logic to wait until some engineers finally
> > succeed in building an selling an new device.
> > Information about FDA can also be found at there web-
> > site. Or whe could write to BFB organisations etc.
> > however, a FDA approvement could take a long time and
> > money. This is where the project could end up dead.
> I have argued before, and will continue to argue, that we don't
> FDA approval to develop and put forward our device, provided wedon't
> make medical claims for it. That's what the disclaimers you andI
> worked on are all about.Maybe we
> > for now its the members like me who build those machines for
> personal use, and to fool arround..
> > If however the project must end up...in the market then
> > whe need more members (not technologist) to bring in
> > some use-full stuf.
> > I don't know if i have posted a message about FDA,
> > but i did investigate something like ECG at there site.
> > I look if i can find it and post it again.
> > regards. Frans.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Moritz v. Buttlar
> > To: buildcheapeeg@y...
> > Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 9:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: [buildcheapeeg] LEGAL/FDA
> > Hi frans !
> > Great text you posted there ! Where did you pick it up ?
> could ask the----
> > author if we could post in on our website ?
> > Moritz
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------http://www.openeeg.org !>
> > Baltic Microsolutions / Flash Microcontroller Custom-
> > http://www.baltic-microsolutions.de
> > < open-source neurofeedback project at
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