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RE: [bugclub] Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius (??) - needs ID confirmation

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  • julie nicholson
    Why could you not have just left it where it was? To: bugclub@yahoogroups.comFrom: papillon_iii@yahoo.co.ukDate: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:52:38 +0000Subject:
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 15, 2007
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      Why could you not have just left it where it was?


      To: bugclub@yahoogroups.com
      From: papillon_iii@...
      Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:52:38 +0000
      Subject: [bugclub] Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius (??) - needs ID confirmation

      I was out for a drive and noticed a stick insect on a shoot of a shrub.
      The stick insect is primarily (all over ecept some small exceptions) pale-grass green, 72mm length body with a cream/yellow stripe down each side. It has dark reddish-brown patches on the legs where they attach to the body. It has light-brown 6mm antenae the first 1mm of which is green. It has 52mm long forelegs. It appears to be female. 
      It was feeding/basking in the late afternoon sun on a cold windless day.
      From my internet searches it appears to be B. rossius.
      http://www.biolib. cz/en/taxon/ id100335/
      I have the find in a large box on watered foodplant using an oasis.
      Before I can go any further I need +ve expert identification. I live on the Hampshire south coast.
      Please would Phasmid identificaction experts contact me for discussion & photos.
      Has this ever been seen wild in the UK before now? 
       



      The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail
    • Bug Club
      Well if it is that species it has either escaped from captivity or been deliberately released - they are not a native species and should not be released in the
      Message 2 of 7 , Nov 16, 2007
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        Well if it is that species it has either escaped from captivity or
        been deliberately released - they are not a native species and should
        not be released in the wild (See The Amazing World of Stick and Leaf-insects by Paul Brock. Published by the AES).

        Hampshire (UK) has never had any native (or introduced) stick insect
        species.



        On 16 Nov 2007, at 07:31, julie nicholson wrote:

        > Why could you not have just left it where it was?
        >
        >
        > To: bugclub@yahoogroups.com
        > From: papillon_iii@...
        > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:52:38 +0000
        > Subject: [bugclub] Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius
        > (??) - needs ID confirmation
        >
        > I was out for a drive and noticed a stick insect on a shoot of a
        > shrub.
        > The stick insect is primarily (all over ecept some small
        > exceptions) pale-grass green, 72mm length body with a cream/yellow
        > stripe down each side. It has dark reddish-brown patches on the
        > legs where they attach to the body. It has light-brown 6mm antenae
        > the first 1mm of which is green. It has 52mm long forelegs. It
        > appears to be female.
        > It was feeding/basking in the late afternoon sun on a cold windless
        > day.
        > From my internet searches it appears to be B. rossius.
        > http://www.biolib.cz/en/taxon/id100335/
        > I have the find in a large box on watered foodplant using an oasis.
        > Before I can go any further I need +ve expert identification. I
        > live on the Hampshire south coast.
        > Please would Phasmid identificaction experts contact me for
        > discussion & photos.
        > Has this ever been seen wild in the UK before now?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail
        >
        >
      • Kieren Pitts
        Hi All ... Absolutely, if it s a deliberate release then it s an offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981:
        Message 3 of 7 , Nov 16, 2007
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          Hi All

          Bug Club wrote:
          > Well if it is that species it has either escaped from captivity or
          > been deliberately released - they are not a native species and should
          > not be released in the wild (See The Amazing World of Stick and Leaf-insects by Paul Brock. Published by the AES).
          >

          Absolutely, if it's a deliberate release then it's an offence under the
          Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981:

          http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/gm/nonnav/02.htm

          Cheers

          Kieren

          > Hampshire (UK) has never had any native (or introduced) stick insect
          > species.
          >
          >
          >
          > On 16 Nov 2007, at 07:31, julie nicholson wrote:
          >
          >> Why could you not have just left it where it was?
          >>
          >>
          >> To: bugclub@yahoogroups.com
          >> From: papillon_iii@...
          >> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:52:38 +0000
          >> Subject: [bugclub] Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius
          >> (??) - needs ID confirmation
          >>
          >> I was out for a drive and noticed a stick insect on a shoot of a
          >> shrub.
          >> The stick insect is primarily (all over ecept some small
          >> exceptions) pale-grass green, 72mm length body with a cream/yellow
          >> stripe down each side. It has dark reddish-brown patches on the
          >> legs where they attach to the body. It has light-brown 6mm antenae
          >> the first 1mm of which is green. It has 52mm long forelegs. It
          >> appears to be female.
          >> It was feeding/basking in the late afternoon sun on a cold windless
          >> day.
          >> From my internet searches it appears to be B. rossius.
          >> http://www.biolib.cz/en/taxon/id100335/
          >> I have the find in a large box on watered foodplant using an oasis.
          >> Before I can go any further I need +ve expert identification. I
          >> live on the Hampshire south coast.
          >> Please would Phasmid identificaction experts contact me for
          >> discussion & photos.
          >> Has this ever been seen wild in the UK before now?
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live Hotmail
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ========================================================================
          > Members photos of insects and articles etc. can be viewed via the Files and Photos area - see the home page of the forum at:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bugclub
          >
          > Pictures of the eggs, larvae and pupae of UK Lepidoptera can be viewed at:
          > http://www.ukleps.org/
          >
          >
          >
          > The next AES Exhibition at Kempton Park Racecourse, Middlesex, is on Saturday 22 September 2007, open from 11.00 am to 5.00pm. For further details and information on membership of the AES see the AES Website at http://www.amentsoc.org/.
          >
          > For advice on insects and membership of the AES Bug Club (open to those under 13) see the AES Bug Club website at
          > http://www.ex.ac.uk/bugclub
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Kieren Pitts
          Hi ... A quick google search shows BugLife considers it non-native, knows about its presence in the UK and considers it to be introduced:
          Message 4 of 7 , Nov 16, 2007
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            Hi

            papillon_iii wrote:
            > But what you say is not really true. There is at least 2 other
            > possible source/solutions to this find.
            >
            >
            > Backgrounder to B. rossius..
            >
            > This species is found all across Europe (France, Italy etc) on sea-
            > frontage locations. It survives in mainly warmer locations but I
            > guess its sea-side habitat provides a good buffer from prevailing
            > weather condition extremes of hot and cold.. If any species was
            > native then this would be it.


            A quick google search shows BugLife considers it non-native, knows about
            its presence in the UK and considers it to be introduced:

            http://www.buglife.org.uk/discoverbugs/knowledge/typesofinvertebratesbyhabitat/terrestrial/stickinsects.htm

            It does not fly so its not a migrant.
            > It feeds on bramble and wild rose. This species is parthenogenic.
            >
            >
            > Other soucres/solutions..
            >
            > Another source: eggs laid on plant material brought back/imported
            > from continental europe.
            >
            > Another solution: its been native all the time.
            >
            > At the moment from just one individual it is not possible to say
            > there is a breeding colony. But its located on ancient ground that
            > has mainly -never- been disturbed by man. The odds are though that
            > its just come in on plant material in recent years. It takes just one
            > egg!
            >

            If you weigh up the options then it's *extremely* unlikely that this is
            native and previously undiscovered - especially as BugLife are already
            aware of other colonies and state it to be an introduced species.

            The most likely cause is the accidental release of a pet - either as a
            nymph thrown away with old foodplant or disposal of eggs in domestic
            rubbish (without freezing them first).

            You should report the finding to Hampshire Biodiversity Information Centre:

            http://www3.hants.gov.uk/biodiversity/hbic.htm

            if they can't ID it then you could try the PSG:

            http://www.stickinsect.org.uk/


            > [This is not specifically addressed to this post but a general
            > comment on posts so far...
            >
            > Really, I was after comments on identification. Its far too early yet
            > to comment on the find itself. And moralising at this early really is
            > a stinker.]
            >
            >

            With regard to the earlier post, I wasn't "moralising" - merely pointing
            out that the UK has laws on the release of non-natives. Given that
            BugLife consider it an introduced species these laws are clearly relevant.

            My post addressed the query questioning your actions in removing the
            individual from the wild. I think it important to highlight the legal
            frameworks in place within the UK designed to stop introductions of
            non-natives (accidental or otherwise) and why its important to identify
            it and report its occurrence at HBIC.

            Cheers

            Kieren


            >
            > --- In bugclub@yahoogroups.com, Bug Club <bugclubquestions@...> wrote:
            >> Well if it is that species it has either escaped from captivity or
            >> been deliberately released - they are not a native species and
            > should
            >> not be released in the wild (See The Amazing World of Stick and
            > Leaf-insects by Paul Brock. Published by the AES).
            >> Hampshire (UK) has never had any native (or introduced) stick
            > insect
            >> species.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> On 16 Nov 2007, at 07:31, julie nicholson wrote:
            >>
            >>> Why could you not have just left it where it was?
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> To: bugclub@yahoogroups.com
            >>> From: papillon_iii@...
            >>> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:52:38 +0000
            >>> Subject: [bugclub] Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius
            >>> (??) - needs ID confirmation
            >>>
            >>> I was out for a drive and noticed a stick insect on a shoot of a
            >>> shrub.
            >>> The stick insect is primarily (all over ecept some small
            >>> exceptions) pale-grass green, 72mm length body with a
            > cream/yellow
            >>> stripe down each side. It has dark reddish-brown patches on the
            >>> legs where they attach to the body. It has light-brown 6mm
            > antenae
            >>> the first 1mm of which is green. It has 52mm long forelegs. It
            >>> appears to be female.
            >>> It was feeding/basking in the late afternoon sun on a cold
            > windless
            >>> day.
            >>> From my internet searches it appears to be B. rossius.
            >>> http://www.biolib.cz/en/taxon/id100335/
            >>> I have the find in a large box on watered foodplant using an
            > oasis.
            >>> Before I can go any further I need +ve expert identification. I
            >>> live on the Hampshire south coast.
            >>> Please would Phasmid identificaction experts contact me for
            >>> discussion & photos.
            >>> Has this ever been seen wild in the UK before now?
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>>
            >>> The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live
            > Hotmail
            >>>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ========================================================================
            > Members photos of insects and articles etc. can be viewed via the Files and Photos area - see the home page of the forum at:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bugclub
            >
            > Pictures of the eggs, larvae and pupae of UK Lepidoptera can be viewed at:
            > http://www.ukleps.org/
            >
            >
            >
            > The next AES Exhibition at Kempton Park Racecourse, Middlesex, is on Saturday 22 September 2007, open from 11.00 am to 5.00pm. For further details and information on membership of the AES see the AES Website at http://www.amentsoc.org/.
            >
            > For advice on insects and membership of the AES Bug Club (open to those under 13) see the AES Bug Club website at
            > http://www.ex.ac.uk/bugclub
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >

            --
            _____________________________________________________
            Dr Kieren Pitts
            Kieren.Pitts@...
            Senior Analyst/Programmer
            Institute for Learning and Research Technology
            University of Bristol
            8-10 Berkeley Square
            Bristol
            BS8 1HH
            Tel: 0117 9287120 (Direct)

            Work blog - http://kieren.blogs.ilrt.org
            Latest posting - Losing the 404 File not found error

            http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/aboutus/staff?search=bzkmp
            http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/id/
          • Shaun Wall
            Following the stick insect discussion with amusement. If it s not too facetious may I suggest that there have been stick insects in England since Adrian Mole
            Message 5 of 7 , Nov 16, 2007
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              Following the stick insect discussion with amusement. If it's not too facetious may I suggest that there have been stick insects in England since Adrian Mole was 13.1/2. In fact there is mention of a stick insect in his diaries as far back as the early seventies if my memory serves me right.
               
              Shaun (GoFor) Wall

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Kieren Pitts <Kieren.Pitts@...>
              To: bugclub@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, 16 November, 2007 12:29:53 PM
              Subject: Re: [bugclub] Re: Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius (??) - needs ID confirmation

              Hi

              papillon_iii wrote:

              > But what you say is not really true. There is at least 2 other
              > possible source/solutions to this find.
              >
              >
              > Backgrounder to B. rossius..
              >
              > This species is found all across Europe (France, Italy etc) on sea-
              > frontage locations. It survives in mainly warmer locations but I
              > guess its sea-side habitat provides a good buffer from prevailing
              > weather condition extremes of hot and cold.. If any species was
              > native then this would be it.

              A quick google search shows BugLife considers it non-native, knows about
              its presence in the UK and considers it to be introduced:

              http://www.buglife. org.uk/discoverb ugs/knowledge/ typesofinvertebr atesbyhabitat/ terrestrial/ stickinsects. htm

              It does not fly so its not a migrant.
              > It feeds on bramble and wild rose. This species is parthenogenic.
              >
              >
              > Other soucres/solutions. .
              >
              > Another source: eggs laid on plant material brought back/imported
              > from continental europe.
              >
              > Another solution: its been native all the time.
              >
              > At the moment from just one individual it is not possible to say
              > there is a breeding colony. But its located on ancient ground that
              > has mainly -never- been disturbed by man. The odds are though that
              > its just come in on plant material in recent years. It takes just one
              > egg!
              >

              If you weigh up the options then it's *extremely* unlikely that this is
              native and previously undiscovered - especially as BugLife are already
              aware of other colonies and state it to be an introduced species.

              The most likely cause is the accidental release of a pet - either as a
              nymph thrown away with old foodplant or disposal of eggs in domestic
              rubbish (without freezing them first).

              You should report the finding to Hampshire Biodiversity Information Centre:

              http://www3. hants.gov. uk/biodiversity/ hbic.htm

              if they can't ID it then you could try the PSG:

              http://www.stickins ect.org.uk/

              > [This is not specifically addressed to this post but a general
              > comment on posts so far...
              >
              > Really, I was after comments on identification. Its far too early yet
              > to comment on the find itself. And moralising at this early really is
              > a stinker.]
              >
              >

              With regard to the earlier post, I wasn't "moralising" - merely pointing
              out that the UK has laws on the release of non-natives. Given that
              BugLife consider it an introduced species these laws are clearly relevant.

              My post addressed the query questioning your actions in removing the
              individual from the wild. I think it important to highlight the legal
              frameworks in place within the UK designed to stop introductions of
              non-natives (accidental or otherwise) and why its important to identify
              it and report its occurrence at HBIC.

              Cheers

              Kieren

              >
              > --- In bugclub@yahoogroups .com, Bug Club <bugclubquestions@ ...> wrote:
              >> Well if it is that species it has either escaped from captivity or
              >> been deliberately released - they are not a native species and
              > should
              >> not be released in the wild (See The Amazing World of Stick and
              > Leaf-insects by Paul Brock. Published by the AES).
              >> Hampshire (UK) has never had any native (or introduced) stick
              > insect
              >> species.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> On 16 Nov 2007, at 07:31, julie nicholson wrote:
              >>
              >>> Why could you not have just left it where it was?
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> To: bugclub@yahoogroups .com
              >>> From: papillon_iii@ ...
              >>> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:52:38 +0000
              >>> Subject: [bugclub] Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius
              >>> (??) - needs ID confirmation
              >>>
              >>> I was out for a drive and noticed a stick insect on a shoot of a
              >>> shrub.
              >>> The stick insect is primarily (all over ecept some small
              >>> exceptions) pale-grass green, 72mm length body with a
              > cream/yellow
              >>> stripe down each side. It has dark reddish-brown patches on the
              >>> legs where they attach to the body. It has light-brown 6mm
              > antenae
              >>> the first 1mm of which is green. It has 52mm long forelegs. It
              >>> appears to be female.
              >>> It was feeding/basking in the late afternoon sun on a cold
              > windless
              >>> day.
              >>> From my internet searches it appears to be B. rossius.
              >>> http://www.biolib. cz/en/taxon/ id100335/
              >>> I have the find in a large box on watered foodplant using an
              > oasis.
              >>> Before I can go any further I need +ve expert identification. I
              >>> live on the Hampshire south coast.
              >>> Please would
              Phasmid identificaction experts contact me for
              >>> discussion & photos.
              >>> Has this ever been seen wild in the UK before now?
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>>
              >>> The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live
              > Hotmail
              >>>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======
              > Members photos of insects and articles etc. can be viewed via the Files and Photos area - see the home page of the forum at:
              > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/bugclub
              >
              > Pictures of the eggs, larvae and pupae of UK Lepidoptera can be viewed at:
              > http://www.ukleps. org/
              >
              >
              >
              > The next AES Exhibition at
              Kempton Park Racecourse, Middlesex, is on Saturday 22 September 2007, open from 11.00 am to 5.00pm. For further details and information on membership of the AES see the AES Website at http://www.amentsoc .org/.
              >
              > For advice on insects and membership of the AES Bug Club (open to those under 13) see the AES Bug Club website at
              > http://www.ex. ac.uk/bugclub
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >

              --
              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____
              Dr Kieren Pitts
              Kieren.Pitts@ bristol.ac. uk
              Senior Analyst/Programmer
              Institute for Learning and Research Technology
              University of Bristol
              8-10 Berkeley Square
              Bristol
              BS8 1HH
              Tel: 0117 9287120 (Direct)

              Work blog - http://kieren. blogs.ilrt. org
              Latest posting - Losing the 404 File not found error

              http://www.ilrt. bris.ac.uk/ aboutus/staff? search=bzkmp
              http://www.ilrt. bris.ac.uk/ id/



              Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
            • Bug Club
              Some were here long before Adrian Mole but the long standing native populations have been mainly restricted to Devon, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. In Paul
              Message 6 of 7 , Nov 16, 2007
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                Some were here long before Adrian Mole but the long standing native populations have been mainly restricted to Devon, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly.

                In Paul Brocks excellent handbook he notes that the first species resident in Britain was recorded in the early 1900s and two other species were found in 1950 and 1987.

                He also notes that deliberate releases/escapees of Bacillus rossius and Carausius morosus (the 'Laboratory or Indian Stick Insect' which is often reared in schools) and other species have been reported many times.

                As for comments on identification - I don't think anyone would be prepared to be certain about its ID without seeing it  - but I will ask Paul if I can contact him.

                Cheers

                Reg


                On 16 Nov 2007, at 13:37, Shaun Wall wrote:


                Following the stick insect discussion with amusement. If it's not too facetious may I suggest that there have been stick insects in England since Adrian Mole was 13.1/2. In fact there is mention of a stick insect in his diaries as far back as the early seventies if my memory serves me right.
                 
                Shaun (GoFor) Wall

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Kieren Pitts <Kieren.Pitts@ bristol.ac. uk>
                To: bugclub@yahoogroups .com
                Sent: Friday, 16 November, 2007 12:29:53 PM
                Subject: Re: [bugclub] Re: Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius (??) - needs ID confirmation

                Hi

                papillon_iii wrote:
                > But what you say is not really true. There is at least 2 other 
                > possible source/solutions to this find.
                > 
                > 
                > Backgrounder to B. rossius..
                > 
                > This species is found all across Europe (France, Italy etc) on sea-
                > frontage locations. It survives in mainly warmer locations but I 
                > guess its sea-side habitat provides a good buffer from prevailing 
                > weather condition extremes of hot and cold.. If any species was 
                > native then this would be it.

                A quick google search shows BugLife considers it non-native, knows about 
                its presence in the UK and considers it to be introduced:

                http://www.buglife. org.uk/discoverb ugs/knowledge/ typesofinvertebr atesbyhabitat/ terrestrial/ stickinsects. htm

                It does not fly so its not a migrant.
                > It feeds on bramble and wild rose. This species is parthenogenic.
                > 
                > 
                > Other soucres/solutions. .
                > 
                > Another source: eggs laid on plant material brought back/imported 
                > from continental europe. 
                > 
                > Another solution: its been native all the time.
                > 
                > At the moment from just one individual it is not possible to say 
                > there is a breeding colony. But its located on ancient ground that 
                > has mainly -never- been disturbed by man. The odds are though that 
                > its just come in on plant material in recent years. It takes just one 
                > egg!
                > 

                If you weigh up the options then it's *extremely* unlikely that this is 
                native and previously undiscovered - especially as BugLife are already 
                aware of other colonies and state it to be an introduced species.

                The most likely cause is the accidental release of a pet - either as a 
                nymph thrown away with old foodplant or disposal of eggs in domestic 
                rubbish (without freezing them first).

                You should report the finding to Hampshire Biodiversity Information Centre:

                http://www3. hants.gov. uk/biodiversity/ hbic.htm

                if they can't ID it then you could try the PSG:

                http://www.stickins ect.org.uk/

                > [This is not specifically addressed to this post but a general 
                > comment on posts so far...
                > 
                > Really, I was after comments on identification. Its far too early yet
                > to comment on the find itself. And moralising at this early really is 
                > a stinker.]
                > 
                > 

                With regard to the earlier post, I wasn't "moralising" - merely pointing 
                out that the UK has laws on the release of non-natives. Given that 
                BugLife consider it an introduced species these laws are clearly relevant.

                My post addressed the query questioning your actions in removing the 
                individual from the wild. I think it important to highlight the legal 
                frameworks in place within the UK designed to stop introductions of 
                non-natives (accidental or otherwise) and why its important to identify 
                it and report its occurrence at HBIC.

                Cheers

                Kieren

                > 
                > --- In bugclub@yahoogroups .com, Bug Club <bugclubquestions@ ...> wrote:
                >> Well if it is that species it has either escaped from captivity or 
                >> been deliberately released - they are not a native species and 
                > should 
                >> not be released in the wild (See The Amazing World of Stick and 
                > Leaf-insects by Paul Brock. Published by the AES).
                >> Hampshire (UK) has never had any native (or introduced) stick 
                > insect 
                >> species.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> On 16 Nov 2007, at 07:31, julie nicholson wrote:
                >>
                >>> Why could you not have just left it where it was?
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> To: bugclub@yahoogroups .com
                >>> From: papillon_iii@ ...
                >>> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:52:38 +0000
                >>> Subject: [bugclub] Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius 
                >>> (??) - needs ID confirmation
                >>>
                >>> I was out for a drive and noticed a stick insect on a shoot of a 
                >>> shrub.
                >>> The stick insect is primarily (all over ecept some small 
                >>> exceptions) pale-grass green, 72mm length body with a 
                > cream/yellow 
                >>> stripe down each side. It has dark reddish-brown patches on the 
                >>> legs where they attach to the body. It has light-brown 6mm 
                > antenae 
                >>> the first 1mm of which is green. It has 52mm long forelegs. It 
                >>> appears to be female.
                >>> It was feeding/basking in the late afternoon sun on a cold 
                > windless 
                >>> day.
                >>> From my internet searches it appears to be B. rossius.
                >>> http://www.biolib. cz/en/taxon/ id100335/
                >>> I have the find in a large box on watered foodplant using an 
                > oasis.
                >>> Before I can go any further I need +ve expert identification. I 
                >>> live on the Hampshire south coast.
                >>> Please would Phasmid identificaction experts contact me for 
                >>> discussion & photos.
                >>> Has this ever been seen wild in the UK before now?
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>>
                >>> The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live 
                > Hotmail
                >>>
                > 
                > 
                > 
                > 
                > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======
                > Members photos of insects and articles etc. can be viewed via the Files and Photos area - see the home page of the forum at:
                > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/bugclub
                > 
                > Pictures of the eggs, larvae and pupae of UK Lepidoptera can be viewed at:
                > http://www.ukleps. org/
                > 
                > 
                > 
                > The next AES Exhibition at Kempton Park Racecourse, Middlesex, is on Saturday 22 September 2007, open from 11.00 am to 5.00pm. For further details and information on membership of the AES see the AES Website at http://www.amentsoc .org/.
                > 
                > For advice on insects and membership of the AES Bug Club (open to those under 13) see the AES Bug Club website at
                > http://www.ex. ac.uk/bugclub
                > 
                > 
                > 
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > 
                > 
                > 

                -- 
                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____
                Dr Kieren Pitts
                Kieren.Pitts@ bristol.ac. uk
                Senior Analyst/Programmer
                Institute for Learning and Research Technology
                University of Bristol
                8-10 Berkeley Square
                Bristol
                BS8 1HH
                Tel: 0117 9287120 (Direct)

                Work blog - http://kieren. blogs.ilrt. org
                Latest posting - Losing the 404 File not found error

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              • Shaun Wall
                Thanks Reg! I happen to believe exactly what you are saying. I always believed the stick insect was domiciled in Southern England. SW -- Original Message ----
                Message 7 of 7 , Nov 19, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks Reg!
                  I happen to believe exactly what you are saying.
                  I always believed the stick insect was domiciled
                  in Southern England. SW 
                   
                   
                  -- Original Message ----
                  From: Bug Club <bugclubquestions@...>
                  To: bugclub@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, 16 November, 2007 4:52:16 PM
                  Subject: Re: [bugclub] Re: Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius (??) - needs ID confirmation

                  Some were here long before Adrian Mole but the long standing native populations have been mainly restricted to Devon, Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly.


                  In Paul Brocks excellent handbook he notes that the first species resident in Britain was recorded in the early 1900s and two other species were found in 1950 and 1987.

                  He also notes that deliberate releases/escapees of Bacillus rossius and Carausius morosus (the 'Laboratory or Indian Stick Insect' which is often reared in schools) and other species have been reported many times.

                  As for comments on identification - I don't think anyone would be prepared to be certain about its ID without seeing it  - but I will ask Paul if I can contact him.

                  Cheers

                  Reg


                  On 16 Nov 2007, at 13:37, Shaun Wall wrote:


                  Following the stick insect discussion with amusement. If it's not too facetious may I suggest that there have been stick insects in England since Adrian Mole was 13.1/2. In fact there is mention of a stick insect in his diaries as far back as the early seventies if my memory serves me right.
                   
                  Shaun (GoFor) Wall

                  ----- Original Message ----
                  From: Kieren Pitts <Kieren.Pitts@ bristol.ac. uk>
                  To: bugclub@yahoogroups .com
                  Sent: Friday, 16 November, 2007 12:29:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: [bugclub] Re: Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius (??) - needs ID confirmation

                  Hi

                  papillon_iii wrote:
                  > But what you say is not really true. There is at least 2 other 
                  > possible source/solutions to this find.
                  > 
                  > 
                  > Backgrounder to B. rossius..
                  > 
                  > This species is found all across Europe (France, Italy etc) on sea-
                  > frontage locations. It survives in mainly warmer locations but I 
                  > guess its sea-side habitat provides a good buffer from prevailing 
                  > weather condition extremes of hot and cold.. If any species was 
                  > native then this would be it.

                  A quick google search shows BugLife considers it non-native, knows about 
                  its presence in the UK and considers it to be introduced:

                  http://www.buglife. org.uk/discoverb ugs/knowledge/ typesofinvertebr atesbyhabitat/ terrestrial/ stickinsects. htm

                  It does not fly so its not a migrant.
                  > It feeds on bramble and wild rose. This species is parthenogenic.
                  > 
                  > 
                  > Other soucres/solutions. .
                  > 
                  > Another source: eggs laid on plant material brought back/imported 
                  > from continental europe. 
                  > 
                  > Another solution: its been native all the time.
                  > 
                  > At the moment from just one individual it is not possible to say 
                  > there is a breeding colony. But its located on ancient ground that 
                  > has mainly -never- been disturbed by man. The odds are though that 
                  > its just come in on plant material in recent years. It takes just one 
                  > egg!
                  > 

                  If you weigh up the options then it's *extremely* unlikely that this is 
                  native and previously undiscovered - especially as BugLife are already 
                  aware of other colonies and state it to be an introduced species.

                  The most likely cause is the accidental release of a pet - either as a 
                  nymph thrown away with old foodplant or disposal of eggs in domestic 
                  rubbish (without freezing them first).

                  You should report the finding to Hampshire Biodiversity Information Centre:

                  http://www3. hants.gov. uk/biodiversity/ hbic.htm

                  if they can't ID it then you could try the PSG:

                  http://www.stickins ect.org.uk/

                  > [This is not specifically addressed to this post but a general 
                  > comment on posts so far...
                  > 
                  > Really, I was after comments on identification. Its far too early yet
                  > to comment on the find itself. And moralising at this early really is 
                  > a stinker.]
                  > 
                  > 

                  With regard to the earlier post, I wasn't "moralising" - merely pointing 
                  out that the UK has laws on the release of non-natives. Given that 
                  BugLife consider it an introduced species these laws are clearly relevant.

                  My post addressed the query questioning your actions in removing the 
                  individual from the wild. I think it important to highlight the legal 
                  frameworks in place within the UK designed to stop introductions of 
                  non-natives (accidental or otherwise) and why its important to identify 
                  it and report its occurrence at HBIC.

                  Cheers

                  Kieren

                  > 
                  > --- In bugclub@yahoogroups .com, Bug Club <bugclubquestions@ ...> wrote:
                  >> Well if it is that species it has either escaped from captivity or 
                  >> been deliberately released - they are not a native species and 
                  > should 
                  >> not be released in the wild (See The Amazing World of Stick and 
                  > Leaf-insects by Paul Brock. Published by the AES).
                  >> Hampshire (UK) has never had any native (or introduced) stick 
                  > insect 
                  >> species.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> On 16 Nov 2007, at 07:31, julie nicholson wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> Why could you not have just left it where it was?
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> To: bugclub@yahoogroups .com
                  >>> From: papillon_iii@ ...
                  >>> Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 20:52:38 +0000
                  >>> Subject: [bugclub] Wild phasmid capture in UK - Bacillus rossius 
                  >>> (??) - needs ID confirmation
                  >>>
                  >>> I was out for a drive and noticed a stick insect on a shoot of a 
                  >>> shrub.
                  >>> The stick insect is primarily (all over ecept some small 
                  >>> exceptions) pale-grass green, 72mm length body with a 
                  > cream/yellow 
                  >>> stripe down each side. It has dark reddish-brown patches on the 
                  >>> legs where they attach to the body. It has light-brown 6mm 
                  > antenae 
                  >>> the first 1mm of which is green. It has 52mm long forelegs. It 
                  >>> appears to be female.
                  >>> It was feeding/basking in the late afternoon sun on a cold 
                  > windless 
                  >>> day.
                  >>> From my internet searches it appears to be B. rossius.
                  >>> http://www.biolib. cz/en/taxon/ id100335/
                  >>> I have the find in a large box on watered foodplant using an 
                  > oasis.
                  >>> Before I can go any further I need +ve expert identification. I 
                  >>> live on the Hampshire south coast.
                  >>> Please would Phasmid identificaction experts contact me for 
                  >>> discussion & photos.
                  >>> Has this ever been seen wild in the UK before now?
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> The next generation of MSN Hotmail has arrived - Windows Live 
                  > Hotmail
                  >>>
                  > 
                  > 
                  > 
                  > 
                  > ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= ======
                  > Members photos of insects and articles etc. can be viewed via the Files and Photos area - see the home page of the forum at:
                  > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/bugclub
                  > 
                  > Pictures of the eggs, larvae and pupae of UK Lepidoptera can be viewed at:
                  > http://www.ukleps. org/
                  > 
                  > 
                  > 
                  > The next AES Exhibition at Kempton Park Racecourse, Middlesex, is on Saturday 22 September 2007, open from 11.00 am to 5.00pm. For further details and information on membership of the AES see the AES Website at http://www.amentsoc .org/.
                  > 
                  > For advice on insects and membership of the AES Bug Club (open to those under 13) see the AES Bug Club website at
                  > http://www.ex. ac.uk/bugclub
                  > 
                  > 
                  > 
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > 
                  > 
                  > 

                  -- 
                  ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _____
                  Dr Kieren Pitts
                  Kieren.Pitts@ bristol.ac. uk
                  Senior Analyst/Programmer
                  Institute for Learning and Research Technology
                  University of Bristol
                  8-10 Berkeley Square
                  Bristol
                  BS8 1HH
                  Tel: 0117 9287120 (Direct)

                  Work blog - http://kieren. blogs.ilrt. org
                  Latest posting - Losing the 404 File not found error

                  http://www.ilrt. bris.ac.uk/ aboutus/staff? search=bzkmp
                  http://www.ilrt. bris.ac.uk/ id/



                  Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger .yahoo.com




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