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Re: Brin: Singularities, Nightmares, and Japanese Sci-Fi

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  • David Brin
    I exclude positive intervention in order to let them - or God - off the hook. There is (1) no evidence for such events and (b) had others the power to
    Message 1 of 17 , Mar 29 12:35 PM
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      I exclude positive intervention in order to let them -
      or God - off the hook. There is (1) no evidence for
      such events and (b) had others the power to intervent,
      there have been mega tragedies they could have helped
      us to avoid. Just the availablity of glass lenses,
      would have let us skip past a thousand hellish years.

      See http://ieti.org/articles/brin.htm

      Hey, if I were anti-Japan, do you think they'd have
      made me guest of honor for their biggest show ever,
      the World SF Convention, in Yokohama, last year?

      I've seen a couple of the movies you cite. And
      thanks, I'll look into more.

      Alas, I must tell you that storytelling logic often
      seems deeply lacking. PlanetS actually had some
      elements I quite liked, though.

      What I am trying to learn more about is the rising
      KOREAN sci fi film renaissance. I glimpsed one live
      action time travel story, set in a parallel univ where
      Japan still dominated Korea nowadays. Lots of verve.
      Wish I knew the name.

      ANyway, thanks and keep spreading the memes.

      db



      --- KZK <evil.kezik@...> wrote:

      > In your article on Singularities and Nightmares, you
      > briefly discuss
      > negative intervention by outsiders (i.e. Aliens or
      > so-called deities),
      > but you didn't really discuss positive /
      > preventative intervention or
      > even neutral intervention by aliens. Granted you
      > explore those
      > scenarios in depth in your uplift novels, but I
      > would have thought you
      > would be more of a completest in your non-fiction
      > works.
      >
      > But Actually I write because you say this Dr. Brin:
      >
      > "For those of you who like Japanese-oriented sci
      > fi... like monsters
      > that stomp cities... or just cool mythology, have a
      > look at a small
      > webzine called Daikaijuzine. "
      >
      > And you have also attacked anime and manga on
      > several other occasions.
      > I just want to set the record straight. Their is an
      > enormous amount of
      > japanese sci-fi and it isn't all just monsters
      > destroying cities or
      > giant robots. It runs the full range and explores
      > every facet of hard
      > sci-fi. Most japanese sci-fi TV / Movies comes from
      > adaptations of
      > manga and light novels, usually but not always into
      > Animated Shows or
      > Animated Theatrical Movies. Their are actually >
      > 10,000 Anime shows /
      > movies that have been produced in japan over the
      > years-A large fraction
      > of which are science fiction. There are even more
      > manga / novel series
      > that never get animated.
      >
      > Heh, even you are probably more likely to see one of
      > your own Sci-Fi
      > books made into a japanese animated movie than a
      > live action hollywood one.
      >
      > Here is a short list of good anime sci-fi
      > shows/movies you *might*
      > actually be interested in, based on what you have
      > written in the past,
      > all available in America:
      >
      > -Post Singularity:
      > Blame! (very short)
      > Noein
      > Ergo Proxy
      >
      > -Post Apocalyptic:
      > Scrapped Princess (don't be fooled it's not really a
      > fantasy show)
      > The Big O (I even threw in a not-so stereotypical
      > giant robot /
      > monsters stomping cities show)
      > Interlude
      > Avenger
      > Trigun
      >
      > -Existentialist / Becoming "God":
      > Serial Experiments Lain
      > Ergo Proxy
      > The Big O
      > Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
      > Kamichu!
      >
      > -Polymorphic Necro-Regeneracy:
      > Gungrave
      >
      > -Other Good Sci-Fi Movies:
      > The Place Promised in our early days
      > Paprika
      > [Voices of a Distant Star]
      > Ghost in The Shell (inspiration for the matrix)
      > Metropolis
      > NausicaA of the valley of the Wind
      > Castle in the Sky
      > _______________________________________________
      > http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
      >

      _______________________________________________
      http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
    • KZK
      In your article on Singularities and Nightmares, you briefly discuss negative intervention by outsiders (i.e. Aliens or so-called deities), but you didn t
      Message 2 of 17 , Mar 29 12:56 PM
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        In your article on Singularities and Nightmares, you briefly discuss
        negative intervention by outsiders (i.e. Aliens or so-called deities),
        but you didn't really discuss positive / preventative intervention or
        even neutral intervention by aliens. Granted you explore those
        scenarios in depth in your uplift novels, but I would have thought you
        would be more of a completest in your non-fiction works.

        But Actually I write because you say this Dr. Brin:

        "For those of you who like Japanese-oriented sci fi... like monsters
        that stomp cities... or just cool mythology, have a look at a small
        webzine called Daikaijuzine. "

        And you have also attacked anime and manga on several other occasions.
        I just want to set the record straight. Their is an enormous amount of
        japanese sci-fi and it isn't all just monsters destroying cities or
        giant robots. It runs the full range and explores every facet of hard
        sci-fi. Most japanese sci-fi TV / Movies comes from adaptations of
        manga and light novels, usually but not always into Animated Shows or
        Animated Theatrical Movies. Their are actually > 10,000 Anime shows /
        movies that have been produced in japan over the years-A large fraction
        of which are science fiction. There are even more manga / novel series
        that never get animated.

        Heh, even you are probably more likely to see one of your own Sci-Fi
        books made into a japanese animated movie than a live action hollywood one.

        Here is a short list of good anime sci-fi shows/movies you *might*
        actually be interested in, based on what you have written in the past,
        all available in America:

        -Post Singularity:
        Blame! (very short)
        Noein
        Ergo Proxy

        -Post Apocalyptic:
        Scrapped Princess (don't be fooled it's not really a fantasy show)
        The Big O (I even threw in a not-so stereotypical giant robot /
        monsters stomping cities show)
        Interlude
        Avenger
        Trigun

        -Existentialist / Becoming "God":
        Serial Experiments Lain
        Ergo Proxy
        The Big O
        Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
        Kamichu!

        -Polymorphic Necro-Regeneracy:
        Gungrave

        -Other Good Sci-Fi Movies:
        The Place Promised in our early days
        Paprika
        [Voices of a Distant Star]
        Ghost in The Shell (inspiration for the matrix)
        Metropolis
        NausicaA of the valley of the Wind
        Castle in the Sky
        _______________________________________________
        http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
      • Rceeberger
        ... There are 2 similar movies that I have watched recently. One is Yesterday , but the one I think you are speaking of is 2009-Lost Memories . xponent
        Message 3 of 17 , Mar 29 2:06 PM
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          On 3/29/2008 2:35:36 PM, David Brin (dbrin@...) wrote:
          > I exclude positive intervention in order to let them -
          > or God - off the hook. There is (1) no evidence for
          > such events and (b) had others the power to intervent,
          > there have been mega tragedies they could have helped
          > us to avoid. Just the availablity of glass lenses,
          > would have let us skip past a thousand hellish years.
          >
          > See http://ieti.org/articles/brin.htm
          >
          > Hey, if I were anti-Japan, do you think
          > they'd have
          > made me guest of honor for their biggest show ever,
          > the World SF Convention, in Yokohama, last year?
          >
          > I've
          > seen a couple of the movies you cite. And
          > thanks,
          > I'll look into more.
          >
          > Alas, I must tell you that storytelling logic often
          > seems deeply lacking. PlanetS actually had some
          > elements I quite liked, though.
          >
          > What I am trying to learn more about is the rising
          > KOREAN sci fi film renaissance. I glimpsed one live
          > action time travel story, set in a parallel univ where
          > Japan still dominated Korea nowadays. Lots of verve.
          > Wish I knew the name.
          >
          > ANyway, thanks and keep spreading the memes.

          There are 2 similar movies that I have watched recently. One is "Yesterday", but the one I think you are speaking of is "2009-Lost Memories".


          xponent
          Korean Bondage Maru
          rob
          _______________________________________________
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        • Wayne Eddy
          Hi David, everyone. The footnote on the ieti.org article about Startide Rising being in pre-production in 1999 left me feeling a bit sad. Is there any chance
          Message 4 of 17 , Mar 29 3:46 PM
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            Hi David, everyone.

            The footnote on the ieti.org article about Startide Rising being in
            pre-production in 1999 left me feeling a bit sad. Is there any chance at
            all of the Startide movie being resurrected before aliens make contact or we
            are caught up in the Singularity?

            If Paramount aren't going to make it, perhaps the Japanese or the Koreans
            will take up the challenge. I have only ever seen one Korean film (Musa -
            The Warrior). It wasn't Science Fiction, but it was interesting and
            featured very good Cinematography. A Korean Startide might be very
            interesting.

            I have enjoyed all the Uplift novels, but ever since I first read Startide,
            I have been waiting for a sequel that shed some light on the fate of the
            crew of the skiff. I suppose the scale of the events in the second
            Triology, make their story trivial, but all the same if you revisited that
            particular sub plot, I could guarantee you at least one enthusiastic reader.

            As for the possibility of lurkers, I am of the opinion that they don't
            exist. I suspect that intelligent life is rare and that interstellar travel
            very difficult, and that's the simple if sad answer to the Fermi Paradox.

            Regards,

            Wayne Eddy.


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "David Brin" <dbrin@...>
            To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion" <brin-l@...>
            Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 5:35 AM
            Subject: Re: Brin: Singularities, Nightmares, and Japanese Sci-Fi


            >I exclude positive intervention in order to let them -
            > or God - off the hook. There is (1) no evidence for
            > such events and (b) had others the power to intervent,
            > there have been mega tragedies they could have helped
            > us to avoid. Just the availablity of glass lenses,
            > would have let us skip past a thousand hellish years.
            >
            > See http://ieti.org/articles/brin.htm

            _______________________________________________
            http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
          • Charlie Bell
            ... Indeed. I watched The Host a couple of nights ago. Fun mutant monster romp (but not of the city stomping type...) Charlie.
            Message 5 of 17 , Mar 29 6:10 PM
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              On 30/03/2008, at 6:35 AM, David Brin wrote:
              >
              > What I am trying to learn more about is the rising
              > KOREAN sci fi film renaissance.

              Indeed. I watched "The Host" a couple of nights ago. Fun mutant
              monster romp (but not of the city stomping type...)

              Charlie.
              _______________________________________________
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            • Rceeberger
              ... I ve got that one too. Not bad at all and pretty funny at the right times. xponent Prehensiles Maru rob _______________________________________________
              Message 6 of 17 , Mar 29 6:17 PM
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                On 3/29/2008 8:10:19 PM, Charlie Bell (charlie@...) wrote:
                > On 30/03/2008, at 6:35 AM, David Brin wrote:
                > >
                > > What I am trying to learn more about is the rising
                > > KOREAN sci fi film renaissance.
                >
                > Indeed. I watched "The Host" a couple of nights ago. Fun mutant
                > monster romp (but not of the city stomping type...)
                >
                I've got that one too. Not bad at all and pretty funny at the right times.


                xponent
                Prehensiles Maru
                rob
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              • Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
                ... There are many hints in _Heaven s Reach_ about that fate. For example, there s a description of Tom s house O:-) Alberto Monteiro
                Message 7 of 17 , Mar 30 12:40 PM
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                  Wayne Eddy wrote:
                  >
                  > I have enjoyed all the Uplift novels, but ever since I first read Startide,
                  > I have been waiting for a sequel that shed some light on the fate of the
                  > crew of the skiff.
                  >
                  There are many hints in _Heaven's Reach_ about that fate. For example,
                  there's a description of Tom's house O:-)

                  Alberto Monteiro

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                • David Brin
                  Thanks guys. I keep expecting that the new computer graphics would empower semi-professionals to start a golden age of animated SF... But it hasn t happened
                  Message 8 of 17 , Mar 30 1:03 PM
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                    Thanks guys.

                    I keep expecting that the new computer graphics would
                    empower semi-professionals to start a golden age of
                    animated SF...

                    But it hasn't happened yet, alas...

                    Maybe some of the graphics challenge winners will
                    spark something!
                    _______________________________________________
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                  • John Garcia
                    It s possible. The director of Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow created his demo on a Mac with a couple of actors in front of a blue screen. Hopefully,
                    Message 9 of 17 , Mar 30 1:19 PM
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                      It's possible. The director of Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow created
                      his demo on a Mac with a couple of actors in front of a blue screen.
                      Hopefully, any CGI created characters will look better than the ones in
                      Final Fantasy:The Spirits Within.
                      My preference would be to have human actors in front of a blue screen and
                      all others animated. I seem to remember Himself once writing that he'd like
                      to see Cate Blanchett play Gillian. Now I'd pay 10 bucks to see that.

                      john

                      On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 4:03 PM, David Brin <dbrin@...> wrote:

                      > Thanks guys.
                      >
                      > I keep expecting that the new computer graphics would
                      > empower semi-professionals to start a golden age of
                      > animated SF...
                      >
                      > But it hasn't happened yet, alas...
                      >
                      > Maybe some of the graphics challenge winners will
                      > spark something!
                      > _______________________________________________
                      > http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
                      >
                      _______________________________________________
                      http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
                    • KZK
                      ... Perhaps mere human tragedies are not enough to get get the neutral / semi-neutral Aliens to intervene. I would expect them to only intervene if they had
                      Message 10 of 17 , Mar 30 2:27 PM
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                        > I exclude positive intervention in order to let them -
                        > or God - off the hook. There is (1) no evidence for
                        > such events and (b) had others the power to intervent,
                        > there have been mega tragedies they could have helped
                        > us to avoid. Just the availablity of glass lenses,
                        > would have let us skip past a thousand hellish years.

                        Perhaps mere human tragedies are not enough to get get the neutral /
                        semi-neutral Aliens to intervene. I would expect them to only intervene
                        if they had to, not because they particularly wanted to. (I'm also
                        partial to the Matrix within a matrix scenario's. You can never prove
                        you're actually on the top level, just as any so-called deity can't
                        prove it's the highest deity either.).

                        > See http://ieti.org/articles/brin.htm

                        > Hey, if I were anti-Japan, do you think they'd have
                        > made me guest of honor for their biggest show ever,
                        > the World SF Convention, in Yokohama, last year?

                        Stereotypes. And you have attacked anime/manga in the past.

                        I stupidly forgot to mention sci-fi games, since most games have been
                        made in Japan since the 80's. Me Dumb.

                        > I've seen a couple of the movies you cite. And
                        > thanks, I'll look into more.

                        > Alas, I must tell you that storytelling logic often
                        > seems deeply lacking. PlanetS actually had some
                        > elements I quite liked, though.

                        I think that's "Planetes". As with most things 99% is not so great.
                        http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=2654

                        Now if you a looking for examples of various animation studio's quality,
                        for say a 13 or 26 episode widescreen adaptation of _Startide Rising_:

                        --Sunrise does a lot space opera and mecha type shows and probably does
                        it the best. Shows that would serve as good examples of the quality of
                        Sunrise work include: _Planetes_ , _Crest of the Stars_ / _Banner of the
                        Stars I + II + III_, _Outlaw Star_, _The Big O_, and their masterpiece
                        _Cowboy Bebop_ (altho most of the staff that made _Cowboy Bebop_ great
                        moved to studio Bones).

                        --Bones (Spinoff company from Sunrise) does a lot of good work.
                        Examples of the quality found in studio Bones work include _Cowboy
                        Bebop_, _Cowboy Bebop The Movie_, and _Scrapped Princess_.

                        --J.C. Staff has been impressing me lately. _Shakugan no Shana_ (Not
                        Sci-fi) is a good example of their recent quality.

                        --Madhouse does fantastic work. _Trigun_, _Gungrave_, _Death Note_ (Not
                        really Sci-fi) are all great.

                        --Gonzo does a lot of CGI / Traditional animation mix, some of it pretty
                        good, some not so good. _Kiddy Grade_ is a good example of their quality.

                        --Production I.G. does a lot of high quality animation and CGI mixed.
                        _Ghost in The Shell_, and it's even better animated TV series is their work.

                        --Bee Train (Spinoff Company of Production I.G.), does very Good Work.
                        _Noir_ (not sci-fi) is their best work.

                        --Studio DEEN does OK work. _Simoun_ is a recent show of theirs that
                        can be used to gauge their quality.

                        --Studio Comet does OK work. _Peach Girl_ (not sci-fi) looks great and
                        follows the original manga almost exactly.

                        --Gainax does some interesting Work. _Noein_, and _Neon Genesis
                        Evangelion_, are their best work. Speaking of City / Planet stomping
                        monsters..

                        --Toei Does OK work. Their Best work Recently is _Air, The Motion
                        Picture_ (Not Sci-Fi).

                        --Studio Pierrot Does OK work. Sometimes the animation is really Good,
                        other times it's not so good. They do Shows like _Bleach_ (not sci-fi).

                        --Studio Fantasia Does OK work. _"Rumbling Hearts"_ (not sci-fi) is
                        their great work.

                        And of course Ghibli does the best work of all (but you already knew that).

                        Their are others..

                        Basically the Quality of any anime comes down to
                        1. Who The Director(s) are.
                        2. Who The Character / Mechanical Designers are.
                        3. Who The Composer(s) are.
                        4. Which studio is animating it.
                        5. and how much $ is spent per episode. For example, an average anime
                        episode costs about $100,000, whereas a _Big O_ Episode costs upwards of
                        $400,000 per episode.

                        The Great thing about Japan is that creators can't be forced to give up
                        their rights. So if someone is mistreating a property, the author can
                        put the kibosh on the whole the thing, etc. Which is why you can
                        actually get good long running drama series, and series / movies that
                        are relatively faithful to the original work in Japan instead of the
                        by-committee-tries-to-please-everyone-but-actually-pleases-no-one crap
                        that usually comes out of Hollywood.

                        > What I am trying to learn more about is the rising
                        > KOREAN sci fi film renaissance. I glimpsed one live
                        > action time travel story, set in a parallel univ where
                        > Japan still dominated Korea nowadays. Lots of verve.
                        > Wish I knew the name.

                        So here's my two favorite grandfather paradox scenarios:
                        1. Send a Less than critical-mass amount of plutonium or uranium back in
                        time to near where it originally was. Combine, critical-mass with self,
                        Boom, and paradox.
                        2. Send a very large star into the past, to approximately where it was
                        before it was sent, collapse, super-nova, black hole forms, paradox.

                        Most stories that deal with time travel forget that we are also moving
                        very rapidly in space, so if you were to travel in time you wouldn't be
                        in the relative vicinity of where you traveled from..


                        It seems to me, the biggest problem with faster than light travel (and
                        time travel) is traveling at exactly the speed of light (which is
                        division by zero). If you could 'jump' over close to exactly c you
                        could avoid most of the unpleasantries.

                        > ANyway, thanks and keep spreading the memes.
                        _______________________________________________
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                      • David Brin
                        KZK thanks for interesting and thought-provoking stuff. Look, I like Miazaki and I have enjoyed a lot of other anime. Still, there seems to be a deep and
                        Message 11 of 17 , Mar 30 3:54 PM
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                          KZK thanks for interesting and thought-provoking
                          stuff.

                          Look, I like Miazaki and I have enjoyed a lot of other
                          anime. Still, there seems to be a deep and abiding
                          reluctance to do SF that I would call "for grownups".


                          Look, I know I have a lot more to see! Thanks for the
                          viewing assignment. I will work my way thru it
                          (slowly.)

                          >>Most stories that deal with time travel forget that
                          we are also moving very rapidly in space, so if you
                          were to travel in time you wouldn't bein the relative
                          vicinity of where you traveled from..

                          See Benford"s TIMESCAPE that actually uses this as
                          part of the plot.

                          >>It seems to me, the biggest problem with faster than
                          light travel (and time travel) is traveling at exactly
                          the speed of light (which is
                          division by zero). If you could 'jump' over close to
                          exactly c you
                          could avoid most of the unpleasantries.

                          Which is why some people believe there may be
                          tachyons.

                          Thanks for the comprehensive run down of Japanimation
                          studios!

                          As for amateur CGI sf films... they do NOT have to be
                          of the same rendering quality as Beowulf! A helluva
                          market niche awaits decent "cartoon" level renderings
                          of really good stories.

                          db


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                        • KZK
                          ... Hate to burst your bubble Dr. Brin, but, no that is not going to happen. It takes enormous amounts of work (man hours) / CPU time and Money even to do
                          Message 12 of 17 , Mar 30 3:57 PM
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                            > Thanks guys.
                            >
                            > I keep expecting that the new computer graphics would
                            > empower semi-professionals to start a golden age of
                            > animated SF...
                            >
                            > But it hasn't happened yet, alas...
                            >
                            > Maybe some of the graphics challenge winners will
                            > spark something!


                            Hate to burst your bubble Dr. Brin, but, no that is not going to happen.
                            It takes enormous amounts of work (man hours) / CPU time and Money
                            even to do small scale stuff. You should watch the making of
                            documentary for the sci-fi movie movie _Sky Captain and the World of
                            Tomorrow_, about how much effort that 100% CGI (sans actors) movie took
                            to make. The guy who created the film was original working alone and
                            thought that it would take him 10-15+ years to finish the product.
                            Their are just way too many things for 1 person, or even a small team to
                            handle. That is why dedicated professional studio's will always be
                            necessary for that kind of project.

                            Also, how many serious animated drama's have come out of hollywood over
                            the last ten years? I can count on one hand with fingers left over.
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                          • KZK
                            ... I try. ... I tried to list ones that were mostly fairly serious drama s with very little super deformed animation. ... Start with _Trigun_. It s the
                            Message 13 of 17 , Mar 30 6:17 PM
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                              > KZK thanks for interesting and thought-provoking
                              > stuff.

                              I try.

                              > Look, I like Miazaki and I have enjoyed a lot of other
                              > anime. Still, there seems to be a deep and abiding
                              > reluctance to do SF that I would call "for grownups".

                              I tried to list ones that were mostly fairly serious drama's with very
                              little "super deformed" animation.

                              > Look, I know I have a lot more to see! Thanks for the
                              > viewing assignment. I will work my way thru it
                              > (slowly.)

                              Start with _Trigun_. It's the best of the ones I listed. It starts
                              goofy, but gets more & more serious.

                              > >>Most stories that deal with time travel forget that
                              > we are also moving very rapidly in space, so if you
                              > were to travel in time you wouldn't bein the relative
                              > vicinity of where you traveled from..

                              > See Benford"s TIMESCAPE that actually uses this as
                              > part of the plot.

                              Time travel is my favorite Genre of Science Fiction.

                              Speaking of Time-Travel and Japanese games, The best one was released a
                              few years ago for the Playstation called _Chrono Trigger_.

                              > >>It seems to me, the biggest problem with faster than
                              > light travel (and time travel) is traveling at exactly
                              > the speed of light (which is
                              > division by zero). If you could 'jump' over close to
                              > exactly c you
                              > could avoid most of the unpleasantries.

                              > Which is why some people believe there may be
                              > tachyons.

                              I never knew that!

                              > Thanks for the comprehensive run down of Japanimation
                              > studios!

                              Animation Quality has come a long way over just the past 10 years.
                              Compare the quality of the Show _Trigun_ (1998), to _Gungrave_ (2003?),
                              same studio and same author.

                              > As for amateur CGI sf films... they do NOT have to be
                              > of the same rendering quality as Beowulf! A helluva
                              > market niche awaits decent "cartoon" level renderings
                              > of really good stories.

                              For 2d it already exists. It's called Flash animation. There are even
                              several shows made that way on cartoon network and nickelodeon (_Mucha
                              Lucha_, _Handy Manny_, _fosters home for imaginary friends_, _sealab
                              2021_, _harvey birdman attorney at law_, etc.). The animation is very
                              awkward and unnatural, and generally doesn't look very good (fosters and
                              birdman being the best animated, and most expensive).

                              As for 3d, it took the guy who made _Sky Captain and the World of
                              Tomorrow_ something like a year and half to make what amounted to a 3
                              minute trailer. It was really good, for one man working alone, but it
                              didn't scale up. In order to make the movie, he basically had to create
                              his own studio with hundreds of employee's.
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                            • David Brin
                              kewl! ... _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
                              Message 14 of 17 , Mar 30 7:32 PM
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                                kewl!



                                --- KZK <evil.kezik@...> wrote:

                                > > KZK thanks for interesting and thought-provoking
                                > > stuff.
                                >
                                > I try.
                                >
                                > > Look, I like Miazaki and I have enjoyed a lot of
                                > other
                                > > anime. Still, there seems to be a deep and
                                > abiding
                                > > reluctance to do SF that I would call "for
                                > grownups".
                                >
                                > I tried to list ones that were mostly fairly serious
                                > drama's with very
                                > little "super deformed" animation.
                                >
                                > > Look, I know I have a lot more to see! Thanks
                                > for the
                                > > viewing assignment. I will work my way thru it
                                > > (slowly.)
                                >
                                > Start with _Trigun_. It's the best of the ones I
                                > listed. It starts
                                > goofy, but gets more & more serious.
                                >
                                > > >>Most stories that deal with time travel forget
                                > that
                                > > we are also moving very rapidly in space, so if
                                > you
                                > > were to travel in time you wouldn't bein the
                                > relative
                                > > vicinity of where you traveled from..
                                >
                                > > See Benford"s TIMESCAPE that actually uses this
                                > as
                                > > part of the plot.
                                >
                                > Time travel is my favorite Genre of Science Fiction.
                                >
                                > Speaking of Time-Travel and Japanese games, The best
                                > one was released a
                                > few years ago for the Playstation called _Chrono
                                > Trigger_.
                                >
                                > > >>It seems to me, the biggest problem with faster
                                > than
                                > > light travel (and time travel) is traveling at
                                > exactly
                                > > the speed of light (which is
                                > > division by zero). If you could 'jump' over
                                > close to
                                > > exactly c you
                                > > could avoid most of the unpleasantries.
                                >
                                > > Which is why some people believe there may be
                                > > tachyons.
                                >
                                > I never knew that!
                                >
                                > > Thanks for the comprehensive run down of
                                > Japanimation
                                > > studios!
                                >
                                > Animation Quality has come a long way over just the
                                > past 10 years.
                                > Compare the quality of the Show _Trigun_ (1998), to
                                > _Gungrave_ (2003?),
                                > same studio and same author.
                                >
                                > > As for amateur CGI sf films... they do NOT have
                                > to be
                                > > of the same rendering quality as Beowulf! A
                                > helluva
                                > > market niche awaits decent "cartoon" level
                                > renderings
                                > > of really good stories.
                                >
                                > For 2d it already exists. It's called Flash
                                > animation. There are even
                                > several shows made that way on cartoon network and
                                > nickelodeon (_Mucha
                                > Lucha_, _Handy Manny_, _fosters home for imaginary
                                > friends_, _sealab
                                > 2021_, _harvey birdman attorney at law_, etc.). The
                                > animation is very
                                > awkward and unnatural, and generally doesn't look
                                > very good (fosters and
                                > birdman being the best animated, and most
                                > expensive).
                                >
                                > As for 3d, it took the guy who made _Sky Captain and
                                > the World of
                                > Tomorrow_ something like a year and half to make
                                > what amounted to a 3
                                > minute trailer. It was really good, for one man
                                > working alone, but it
                                > didn't scale up. In order to make the movie, he
                                > basically had to create
                                > his own studio with hundreds of employee's.
                                > _______________________________________________
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                                >

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                              • Wayne Eddy
                                Hi, KZK, everyone, Just because animation is so labour intensive now, doesn t mean that it will be in 5 or 10 or 15 years time. In fact it almost certainly
                                Message 15 of 17 , Mar 31 12:43 AM
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                                  Hi, KZK, everyone,

                                  Just because animation is so labour intensive now, doesn't mean that it will
                                  be in 5 or 10 or 15 years time. In fact it almost certainly won't be. To
                                  say that a dedicated professional studio will always be necessary to produce
                                  a quality animated features fails to take into account the current rate of
                                  technological progess. Eventually expert systems will enable a single
                                  person to do the work of a team, and not long after that AI's will be
                                  capable of reading a script and then generating a feature film without any
                                  human input.

                                  If on the first draft the Soro look a bit too skiny or Gubru plumage not
                                  quite what the doctor ordered, it will be a matter of saying so, and it will
                                  pop up a few possible variations on the screen and regenerate the whole film
                                  over night or in a few minutes depending how far into the future we are
                                  talking.

                                  We may never travel faster than light, or time travel, but we will be able
                                  to see whatever we want to on the big screen.

                                  Regards,

                                  Wayne Eddy.

                                  > Hate to burst your bubble Dr. Brin, but, no that is not going to happen.
                                  > It takes enormous amounts of work (man hours) / CPU time and Money
                                  > even to do small scale stuff. You should watch the making of
                                  > documentary for the sci-fi movie movie _Sky Captain and the World of
                                  > Tomorrow_, about how much effort that 100% CGI (sans actors) movie took
                                  > to make. The guy who created the film was original working alone and
                                  > thought that it would take him 10-15+ years to finish the product.
                                  > Their are just way too many things for 1 person, or even a small team to
                                  > handle. That is why dedicated professional studio's will always be
                                  > necessary for that kind of project.
                                  >
                                  > Also, how many serious animated drama's have come out of hollywood over
                                  > the last ten years? I can count on one hand with fingers left over.

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                                • Julia Thompson
                                  ... Just seeing what the time decrease has been in 3 years for static digital art, I believe you. Your timeline may not be quite right, but Moore s Law plus
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Mar 31 9:13 AM
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                                    On Mon, 31 Mar 2008, Wayne Eddy wrote:

                                    > Hi, KZK, everyone,
                                    >
                                    > Just because animation is so labour intensive now, doesn't mean that it
                                    > will be in 5 or 10 or 15 years time. In fact it almost certainly won't
                                    > be. To say that a dedicated professional studio will always be
                                    > necessary to produce a quality animated features fails to take into
                                    > account the current rate of technological progess. Eventually expert
                                    > systems will enable a single person to do the work of a team, and not
                                    > long after that AI's will be capable of reading a script and then
                                    > generating a feature film without any human input.

                                    Just seeing what the time decrease has been in 3 years for static digital
                                    art, I believe you. Your timeline may not be quite right, but Moore's Law
                                    plus software improvements plus more software specially written for the
                                    purpose will lead there.

                                    Julia

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                                  • Alberto Monteiro
                                    ... The Sims 2 (the only reason I still use Windows at home) includes a very large range of movements, and they are triggered by only a few commands. Maybe
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Mar 31 9:48 AM
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                                      Julia Thompson wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> Eventually expert
                                      >> systems will enable a single person to do the work of a team, and not
                                      >> long after that AI's will be capable of reading a script and then
                                      >> generating a feature film without any human input.
                                      >
                                      > Just seeing what the time decrease has been in 3 years for static
                                      > digital art, I believe you. Your timeline may not be quite right,
                                      > but Moore's Law plus software improvements plus more software
                                      > specially written for the purpose will lead there.
                                      >
                                      "The Sims 2" (the only reason I still use Windows at home) includes
                                      a very large range of movements, and they are triggered by
                                      only a few commands. Maybe that's the near-future of animations:
                                      a Sims2-like interface, and reprogram an action into more detail
                                      whenever necessary.

                                      Alberto Monteiro

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