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RE: Colonization of the Solar System & Beyond

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  • Curtis Burisch
    ... I m pretty new here too ... I haven t seen anything of this kind of conversation. But maybe sci-fi has moved on a bit beyond merely banal spaceflight --
    Message 1 of 30 , Mar 1, 2008
      Wayne wrote:

      >Has the list discussed what it will take to colonise the solar system in
      >the past or is that too almost on topic?

      I'm pretty new here too ... I haven't seen anything of this kind of
      conversation. But maybe sci-fi has moved on a bit beyond merely banal
      spaceflight -- perhaps the topic had become a bit too commonplace, and the
      genre as a whole has moved onto other more sophisticated foci?

      >It seems to me any colonisation of space will be doomed while it is
      >dependent on any more than token amounts of equipment manufactured on
      >earth, and that with current technology it would take hundreds or perhaps
      >thousands of missions to Mars say, before there would be much chance of
      >building the infrastructure to bootstrap an independent technological
      >civilization.

      It's pretty well accepted that using resources found in-situ is the only
      far-sighted way to progress space travel. As you've pointed out, heaving
      everything with you from the bottom of this gravity well is a fairly tough
      prospect, so any bootstrap program would be far more likely to succeed if
      the location chosen is not a planet & doesn't have the associated arduous
      gravity field.

      >Therefore, it seems to me that the colonisation of space something that is
      >going to have to wait until the singularity starts to kick in.

      Whether the singularity would want to have anything to do with colonizing
      space, as we see it today, is debatable. Transcendent technology would be
      capable of so much more, it's hard to see a reason for space colonization in
      a traditional 'sci-fi' sense.

      Thus, in my view, space colonization by Homo Sapiens Sapiens is only likely
      to happen before the singularity occurs.

      You hit the nail on the head in your posting, in that space exploration (on
      a human scale) is only feasible if we make the right choice on how to
      bootstrap.

      This is why we must make asteroids our first priority! They are the most
      accessible resource we have in near-earth space, and only by exploiting them
      can we have a sufficiently large space-borne economy to enable colonization
      of the solar system. (& beyond?)

      In order to achieve this dream, we need to develop technologies to allow us
      to make use of these resources. In the case of most metals, this is a
      process of crushing the ore rock, and smelting the ore. Starting with small
      quantities of material processed using earth-origin machinery (small factory
      / smelter ship), refine enough raw materials to manufacture more capable
      facilities, which in turn allows an increase in material output, which
      enables bigger smelters, and so on and so on. Smelters would be solar
      powered, using very large paraboloid mirrors of lightweight construction. It
      is likely that the operation would be crewed, with the heavy work done by
      tele-operated robots and machines.

      Most ore-processing and steel-working machinery is heavy and cumbersome, and
      currently works only under earth-gravity conditions. New techniques will
      have to be devised to deal with the challenge of microgravity materials
      processing. If a particular process cannot be adapted to micro-g conditions,
      we could always fall back on using centripetal force to simulate gravity,
      which would allow us to use the same old kinds of machines that work here on
      earth.

      I find it pretty sad that nobody is working toward this goal. The current US
      space program is doing some good work, but sadly the mission profiles target
      the moon and mars -- not asteroids.

      Many forward-thinking engineers in the space industry have noticed this, and
      are trying to do something about it. There is now a fairly strong movement
      to have the whole US space program repurposed toward asteroid habitation /
      exploitation. I wish them every success.

      C

      Rock 'n' Roll Maru


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    • Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
      Life After People will air on 2008-03-10 21:00 on brazilian s tetrahydrocanabiol oops... The History Channel. Alberto Monteiro
      Message 2 of 30 , Mar 1, 2008
        Life After People will air on 2008-03-10 21:00 on brazilian's
        tetrahydrocanabiol oops... The History Channel.

        Alberto Monteiro
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      • Curtis Burisch
        It s tetrahydrocannabinol! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol c History is dope Maru ... From: brin-l-bounces@mccmedia.com
        Message 3 of 30 , Mar 1, 2008
          It's tetrahydrocannabinol!

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol

          c

          History is dope Maru

          -----Original Message-----
          From: brin-l-bounces@... [mailto:brin-l-bounces@...] On
          Behalf Of Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
          Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 6:35 PM
          To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
          Subject: Brin: Life after People

          Life After People will air on 2008-03-10 21:00 on brazilian's
          tetrahydrocanabiol oops... The History Channel.

          Alberto Monteiro
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        • Curtis Burisch
          I thought you might like to know of the full-text copy of Aldous Huxley s The Doors of Perception is online at
          Message 4 of 30 , Mar 1, 2008
            I thought you might like to know of the full-text copy of Aldous Huxley's
            "The Doors of Perception" is online at
            http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/lsd/doors.htm

            Hth,
            C

            One thing leads to another Maru.

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          • David Brin
            So the lesson is get high on life... after people...! ... _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
            Message 5 of 30 , Mar 1, 2008
              So the lesson is get high on life... after people...!


              --- Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
              <albmont@...> wrote:

              > Life After People will air on 2008-03-10 21:00 on
              > brazilian's
              > tetrahydrocanabiol oops... The History Channel.
              >
              > Alberto Monteiro
              > _______________________________________________
              > http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
              >

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            • David Brin
              Oh... I appear on several episodes of the new History Channel show The Universe starting with one on March 11. (USA)
              Message 6 of 30 , Mar 1, 2008
                Oh...
                I appear on several episodes of the new History
                Channel show "The Universe" starting with one on March
                11. (USA)


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              • Jim Sharkey
                ... I just finished Cormac McCarthy s _The Road_. I ve had as much life after people as my psyche can handle for a few days. :-p Great book, by the by. If
                Message 7 of 30 , Mar 1, 2008
                  Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote:
                  >Life After People will air on 2008-03-10 21:00 on brazilian's
                  >tetrahydrocanabiol oops... The History Channel.

                  I just finished Cormac McCarthy's _The Road_. I've had as much life
                  after people as my psyche can handle for a few days. :-p

                  Great book, by the by. If there's a chance that anyone here hasn't
                  read it, you should fix that.

                  Jim
                  Carrying the fire Maru

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                • jon louis mann
                  Life After People will air on 2008-03-10 21:00 on brazilian s tetrahydrocanabiol oops... The History Channel. Alberto Monteiro already aired in california.
                  Message 8 of 30 , Mar 1, 2008
                    Life After People will air on 2008-03-10 21:00 on brazilian's
                    tetrahydrocanabiol oops... The History Channel.

                    Alberto Monteiro


                    already aired in california. good program and good riddance to the human race!~)
                    jon




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                  • Doug Pensinger
                    ... Tout au contraire. All is Brin, as the saying goes. Please feel free to discuss anything and everything you wish to. And welcome to the list to both
                    Message 9 of 30 , Mar 1, 2008
                      Curtis wrote:

                      >
                      > I'm pretty new here too ... I haven't seen anything of this kind of
                      > conversation. But maybe sci-fi has moved on a bit beyond merely banal
                      > spaceflight -- perhaps the topic had become a bit too commonplace, and the
                      > genre as a whole has moved onto other more sophisticated foci?
                      >

                      Tout au contraire. All is Brin, as the saying goes. Please feel free to
                      discuss anything and everything you wish to.

                      And welcome to the list to both yourself and Wayne.

                      As for colonization of the solar system, I'm not sure how it will play out,
                      but I think that one way or the other humans will colonize or at least
                      explore the solar system, pre or post singularity. The way I picture it, a
                      person could sublime without impacting his/her human life. Not only that,
                      but it would be possible to make physical copies of yourself wherever you
                      wanted them to be (given the necessary resources and compatible environment.

                      The staple in SF that I think is doomed is the ship that transports physical
                      humans from place to place. Here I picture trancendant individuals able to
                      transport themselves at near light speed to wherever they wanted to go
                      without the need for a protective environment.

                      Doug
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                    • Dave Land
                      ... Some just pronounce his name Bernor Binge to avoid confusion. ... Unless you can find a way to turn it into (a) a tirade against religion, (b) a tirade
                      Message 10 of 30 , Mar 3, 2008
                        On Feb 29, 2008, at 1:29 PM, Wayne Eddy wrote:

                        > I am new to the list, but a long time fan of the ...... what do you
                        > call
                        > the Killer B's, now that you have inducted Vernor Vinge?

                        Some just pronounce his name "Bernor Binge" to avoid confusion.

                        > Has the list discussed what it will take to colonise the solar
                        > system in
                        > the past or is that too almost on topic?

                        Unless you can find a way to turn it into (a) a tirade against religion,
                        (b) a tirade against tirades against religion, (c) a tirade against
                        Wal-Mart or (d) a tirade against tirades against Wal-Mart, I'm not sure
                        how much traction you'll get... :-)

                        Seriously, occasional discussions of "real science" fiction have
                        occurred
                        here, but understand that some people on this list are pretty heavy
                        hitters in the science department, while others are heavier on the
                        fiction.

                        > It seems to me any colonisation of space will be doomed while it is
                        > dependent on any more than token amounts of equipment manufactured on
                        > earth, and that with current technology it would take hundreds or
                        > perhaps thousands of missions to Mars say, before there would be much
                        > chance of building the infrastructure to bootstrap an independent
                        > technological civilization.

                        And many hundreds of years, probably, too. If there is one lesson from
                        "Guns, Germs and Steel" (which I just finished reading, about a decade
                        after everybody else, evidently), it is that environmental factors,
                        such as being along the same latitude, and geographical factors, such as
                        the 40-odd million miles between Earth and Mars, are highly effective
                        barriers to migration.

                        Dave

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                      • Mauro Diotallevi
                        ... Depending on what part of South or Central America you re from, that is how it is actually pronounced :-) ... But a small scientific colony is possible
                        Message 11 of 30 , Mar 4, 2008
                          On Mon, Mar 3, 2008 at 11:32 AM, Dave Land <dmland@...> wrote:
                          > On Feb 29, 2008, at 1:29 PM, Wayne Eddy wrote:
                          >
                          > > I am new to the list, but a long time fan of the ...... what do you
                          > > call
                          > > the Killer B's, now that you have inducted Vernor Vinge?
                          >
                          > Some just pronounce his name "Bernor Binge" to avoid confusion.

                          Depending on what part of South or Central America you're from, that
                          is how it is actually pronounced :-)

                          > > It seems to me any colonisation of space will be doomed while it is
                          > > dependent on any more than token amounts of equipment manufactured on
                          > > earth, and that with current technology it would take hundreds or
                          > > perhaps thousands of missions to Mars say, before there would be much
                          > > chance of building the infrastructure to bootstrap an independent
                          > > technological civilization.

                          But a small scientific colony is possible with modern technology. It
                          wouldn't be self-sufficient or necessarily self-sustaining, but it is
                          not outside the reach of today's tech. It would be stupidly expensive
                          at this point, but if Bill Gates decided to take three or four of his
                          best friends and move permanently to Mars, or the moon, or even a
                          space station, he could certainly pony up the cash and make it happen.
                          They would be dependent on his terrestrial wealth, but that could
                          certainly be the seed of an eventual self-sustaining, self-sufficient
                          colony.

                          --
                          Mauro Diotallevi
                          Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive.
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                        • John Horn
                          I felt bad that the other scientists got to talk about dogs and cats and rust and stuff... What did David get left with? Cockroaches. No respect for the
                          Message 12 of 30 , Mar 10, 2008
                            I felt bad that the other scientists got to talk about dogs and cats
                            and rust and stuff... What did David get left with? Cockroaches.

                            No respect for the science fiction writer!

                            - jmh
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                          • Alberto Monteiro
                            ... Save the cockroaches, save the world! I bet in 20 or 30 years, cockroaches will be in danger, and ecologists will campaign for them :-) Alberto Monteiro
                            Message 13 of 30 , Mar 10, 2008
                              John Horn wrote:
                              >
                              > I felt bad that the other scientists got to talk about dogs and cats
                              > and rust and stuff... What did David get left with? Cockroaches.
                              >
                              > No respect for the science fiction writer!
                              >
                              Save the cockroaches, save the world!

                              I bet in 20 or 30 years, cockroaches will be in danger,
                              and ecologists will campaign for them :-)

                              Alberto Monteiro

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                            • David Brin
                              I talked about lots of great stuff! Monkeys and cats might use our old towers to farm birds... just guard one staircase and you ve got it... letting the
                              Message 14 of 30 , Mar 10, 2008
                                I talked about lots of great stuff! Monkeys and cats
                                might use our old towers to "farm" birds... just guard
                                one staircase and you've got it... letting the cats or
                                monkeys evolve smarts, till they build tower houses of
                                their own!

                                But that wasn't the tilt the producers wanted.

                                Anyone see "my" show "The Architechs"?
                                (http://htyp.org/The_ArchiTECHS)
                                Copies can be ordered from the HC web site.
                                http://store.aetv.com/html/product/index.jhtml?id=75873

                                I'm running a comedy SF serial on Baen's UNIVERSE
                                Magazine, online.

                                Oh, speaking of 10,000 BC...

                                Game studio owner Steve Jackson and I have been
                                working together for more than a decade, refining an
                                "anthropology game". "Tribes!" is a realistic
                                role-playing game (formerly called "Darwinopoly"),
                                that is loads of fun for six to eight players (or
                                multiple tribes of 8 players each) who follow simple
                                rules to simulate life as it must have been for our
                                ancestors, anywhere from 10,000 to 500,000 years ago
                                -- hunting, foraging, mating, and occasionally
                                fighting.

                                (And, yes, it does seem relevant to 10,000 BC mania.)

                                Can you figure out how to survive... and have
                                successful offspring... in a world where only your own
                                wits stand between you and harshness of nature?
                                Tribes! has been created with the advice of several
                                prominent anthropologists, as well as one of the most
                                experienced game designers on the planet. (For more
                                information see the web site for Steve Jackson Games.
                                http://www.sjgames.com/tribes/)

                                Among the things people have found most fascinating is
                                the sexual politics that can arise from a very simple
                                rule set.

                                We’re interested in finding a few anthropology
                                professors who might like to try the game out on
                                students, perhaps as a classroom exercise.

                                Folks are always welcome at
                                http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/

                                Thrive all!

                                > I felt bad that the other scientists got to talk
                                > about dogs and cats
                                > and rust and stuff... What did David get left with?
                                > Cockroaches.
                                >
                                > No respect for the science fiction writer!
                                >
                                > - jmh
                                > _______________________________________________
                                > http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
                                >

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                              • Wayne Eddy
                                Life after people screened here in Australia last night. It was interesting to watch after reading all the comments on the list a while back. The narration
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 27, 2008
                                  "Life after people" screened here in Australia last night. It was
                                  interesting to watch after reading all the comments on the list a while
                                  back.

                                  The narration seems to have been redubbed - I think to try and give it more
                                  of an Australian flavour, so perhaps it has been totally re-edited. From
                                  memory there were about five interview snippets with our patron, including
                                  the very first one.

                                  At one point the narrator said something along the lines of "it is
                                  inevitable that one day that mankind will disappear from the world". That
                                  may be true, but IMHO that time is a long way off and the Earth, the
                                  biosphere & building design, etc., will be changed beyond recognition by
                                  that time and that any predictions should take that into account.

                                  The segment about abandoned city near Chernobyl was very interesting. It
                                  would an interesting project for someone to take a series of photos over the
                                  next fifty or a hundred and then make it into a time lapse film.

                                  Regards,

                                  Wayne Eddy

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                                • David Brin
                                  Wayne Eddy, and gang, Yeah, Life After People was a fun show, though I had no actual control over it. In fact, I think the time scales are 10-100x too short.
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 27, 2008
                                    Wayne Eddy, and gang,

                                    Yeah, Life After People was a fun show, though I had no actual control over it. In fact, I think the time scales are 10-100x too short. It was tasty that they left it vague WHY we were gone. We might even have become gods and simply moved away!

                                    Anyway, it got huge ratings so there'll be a spinoff series!

                                    db





                                    ________________________________
                                    From: Wayne Eddy <weddy@...>
                                    To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion <brin-l@...>
                                    Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 11:41:24 AM
                                    Subject: Brin: Life after People

                                    "Life after people" screened here in Australia last night. It was
                                    interesting to watch after reading all the comments on the list a while
                                    back.

                                    The narration seems to have been redubbed - I think to try and give it more
                                    of an Australian flavour, so perhaps it has been totally re-edited. From
                                    memory there were about five interview snippets with our patron, including
                                    the very first one.

                                    At one point the narrator said something along the lines of "it is
                                    inevitable that one day that mankind will disappear from the world". That
                                    may be true, but IMHO that time is a long way off and the Earth, the
                                    biosphere & building design, etc., will be changed beyond recognition by
                                    that time and that any predictions should take that into account.

                                    The segment about abandoned city near Chernobyl was very interesting. It
                                    would an interesting project for someone to take a series of photos over the
                                    next fifty or a hundred and then make it into a time lapse film.

                                    Regards,

                                    Wayne Eddy

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                                  • Ronn! Blankenship
                                    ... Sounds like we re going to make a Mormon out of Dr. Brin yet! ... And a Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours and all on the list . . . (Those of you aren t
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 27, 2008
                                      At 02:39 PM Thursday 11/27/2008, David Brin wrote:
                                      >Wayne Eddy, and gang,
                                      >
                                      >Yeah, Life After People was a fun show, though I had no actual
                                      >control over it. In fact, I think the time scales are 10-100x too
                                      >short. It was tasty that they left it vague WHY we were gone. We
                                      >might even have become gods and simply moved away!


                                      Sounds like we're going to make a Mormon out of Dr. Brin yet!

                                      :D

                                      And a Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours and all on the list . . .

                                      (Those of you aren't who celebrating Thanksgiving today, hope you
                                      have a happy day anyway!)


                                      . . . ronn! :)



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                                    • Medievalbk@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dbrin@sbcglobal.net writes: We might even have become gods and simply moved away! Only
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Nov 27, 2008
                                        In a message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
                                        dbrin@... writes:

                                        We might even have become gods and simply moved away!



                                        Only if we've paid off the mortgage.

                                        Hmm..... story idea there somewhere.

                                        Vilyehm
                                        **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
                                        AOL.com.
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                                      • Dave Land
                                        ... More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway, that seems to be something like how the story ends in various religions. Who is the mortgagee, and
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Nov 28, 2008
                                          On Nov 27, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Medievalbk@... wrote:

                                          >
                                          > In a message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
                                          > dbrin@... writes:
                                          >
                                          >> We might even have become gods and simply moved away!
                                          >>
                                          >
                                          > Only if we've paid off the mortgage.
                                          >
                                          > Hmm..... story idea there somewhere.

                                          More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway, that seems
                                          to be something like how the story ends in various religions.

                                          Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?

                                          Dave

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                                        • Medievalbk@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 11/28/2008 4:37:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dmland@gmail.com writes: ... More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway,
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Nov 28, 2008
                                            In a message dated 11/28/2008 4:37:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
                                            dmland@... writes:

                                            On Nov 27, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Medievalbk@... wrote:

                                            >
                                            > In a message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
                                            > dbrin@... writes:
                                            >
                                            >> We might even have become gods and simply moved away!
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            > Only if we've paid off the mortgage.
                                            >
                                            > Hmm..... story idea there somewhere.

                                            More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway, that seems
                                            to be something like how the story ends in various religions.

                                            Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?

                                            Dave




                                            In Uplift, The Progenitors and our long lost Patrons.

                                            (Beware of Rothen with carpetbags and long thin
                                            mustaches.)

                                            I'm now going to go hide in the belly of a whale fighting a
                                            giant squid.

                                            Vilyehm
                                            **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
                                            AOL.com.
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                                          • Euan Ritchie
                                            Recently some physicists announced the result of some serious number crunching that is evidence that the majority of the universes mass is the interaction
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Nov 28, 2008
                                              Recently some physicists announced the result of some serious number
                                              crunching that is evidence that the majority of the universes mass is
                                              the interaction between quarks that form protons and neutrons.

                                              Made of gluons that transmit the strong nuclear force this interaction
                                              is the 'quantum foam' of bubbling particles popping in and out of
                                              existence - in theory.

                                              I don't like that theory. Not that I'm even remotely qualified to have
                                              much of an opinion. I find the concept of particles popping in and out
                                              of existence unsatisfying and inelegant. I would only accept it
                                              as true if it's merely a way of expressing something deeper (m-branes
                                              bending in and out of our dimension for instance).

                                              I'd be much happier if the explanation was about more about the shaping
                                              of space than the exchange of particles.

                                              Here's a page summarising the news...

                                              http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16095-its-confirmed-matter-is-merely-vacuum-fluctuations.html
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                                            • Euan Ritchie
                                              Ooops, that non-sequitor was meant for another list. _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Nov 28, 2008
                                                Ooops, that non-sequitor was meant for another list.
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                                              • William T Goodall
                                                ... It was perfectly suitable for here actually. All topics Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : wtg@wtgab.demon.co.uk Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog :
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Nov 28, 2008
                                                  On 29 Nov 2008, at 00:06, Euan Ritchie wrote:

                                                  > Ooops, that non-sequitor was meant for another list.
                                                  > _______________________________________________
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                                                  It was perfectly suitable for here actually.

                                                  All topics Maru
                                                  --
                                                  William T Goodall
                                                  Mail : wtg@...
                                                  Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
                                                  Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

                                                  Most people have more than the average number of legs.


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                                                • Julia Thompson
                                                  ... It was fine here, as far as I m concerned. Julia _______________________________________________ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Nov 29, 2008
                                                    On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, Euan Ritchie wrote:

                                                    > Ooops, that non-sequitor was meant for another list.

                                                    It was fine here, as far as I'm concerned.

                                                    Julia

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                                                  • jamespv@bellsouth.net
                                                    ... To answer the question about the story or about gods or about mortgagee who is the mortgagee? Now that is a question about Gods and Dogs The same word you
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Nov 29, 2008
                                                      >Dave said
                                                      >More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway,
                                                      >that seems to be something like how the story ends in various
                                                      >religions. Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?
                                                      To answer the question about the story or about gods or about mortgagee
                                                      who is the mortgagee? Now that is a question about Gods and Dogs
                                                      The same word you see because we come from beyond the sun
                                                      After our planet blew up in this same galaxy beyond the dog star
                                                      And rode the debris like it was a space ship to earth and found these
                                                      Cave dwellers Knee Ander Thralls if you will Ice me doing they thang
                                                      As we dance and sing and built the great Helios pads mapping stars
                                                      Trying to get home and mocking our pass and travels to this terror
                                                      Affirma and so it is and so it shall be we are the extra terror arresta
                                                      We built the great Peril Amid the unicorn Ah Hiss that dance like
                                                      Snakes in the cutie and map the mirrors of the sky and invented
                                                      The greater calendars of the MY Ions and eons and so we are the creators
                                                      Of worlds before this world and we rose from our rocks and come
                                                      To the new beginning where the light travel with the lesser speed than me
                                                      And they come to envy us and wish to belong to us and become our
                                                      Domesticates so they mortgage they souls for the gold and silver stuff
                                                      Which were the remnants of our world and this is how it was to be
                                                      We confounded they tongues and created another language for them
                                                      And enslaved them to our epic oracles and so it was and so it is
                                                      That they stole our ideas as we evolved from their dead planet
                                                      To compete with their virus and our germ the sperm made
                                                      The journey from the hot rocks now cold and in their water
                                                      We found our first home and paid our first mortgages and so
                                                      It was and yet shall it be that one come out to evolve from gods to men
                                                      Morris J. Peavey, Jr.
                                                      >From Ghettonomics to the Kinky Nashun where treat stories are told
                                                      http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Ghettonomics/Morris-J-Peavey/e/9781410721006
                                                      This is a part of the story of the answer to the story about extraterrestrials
                                                      But the plot thickens as we move from a world of slaves [and indentures]
                                                      To the present day wage slaves where we must assume the cost to bear
                                                      Our own huddles built by the great white god fathers founding our
                                                      Domesticates dumdomes and marking the paths with their names
                                                      And polluting our sanctuaries with places to hide somewhere in cavern
                                                      Or should I say oracles of Diana or OH Dell Fire hell fire realities
                                                      We got da sum for the ole hum bugs and lady bugs and scarabs
                                                      also
                                                      Well if you are real travelers meet me half way and see the trick ah trick
                                                      Let me show you a mortgagee and I tell you another story about
                                                      A homeless veteran and homeless morgagee
                                                      There are a million stories in this world about
                                                      Lying and taking or property that goes back
                                                      To when slaves all lived in bunkhouses like
                                                      American soldiers and never owned what we
                                                      Got nerves to think we are losing and the world
                                                      Is bam bam bozzled again and again run amuck
                                                      >From Ah Kinky Nashun where life is lived to
                                                      http://mahsstoryy.wordpress.com/category/religion/
                                                      The great stories have already been told by the science
                                                      And fiction bluffs! Read and comment!
                                                      -------------- Original message from Dave Land <dmland@...>: --------------


                                                      > On Nov 27, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Medievalbk@... wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > >
                                                      > > In a message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
                                                      > > dbrin@... writes:
                                                      > >
                                                      > >> We might even have become gods and simply moved away!
                                                      > >>
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Only if we've paid off the mortgage.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > Hmm..... story idea there somewhere.
                                                      >
                                                      > More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway, that seems
                                                      > to be something like how the story ends in various religions.
                                                      >
                                                      > Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?
                                                      >
                                                      > Dave
                                                      >
                                                      > _______________________________________________
                                                      > http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
                                                      _______________________________________________
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                                                    • Dave Land
                                                      ... Coordinated nicely with Rob s Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations post of yesterday. Dave What Does it Matter Maru
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Nov 29, 2008
                                                        On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:08 AM, Julia Thompson wrote:

                                                        > On Sat, 29 Nov 2008, Euan Ritchie wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >> Ooops, that non-sequitor was meant for another list.
                                                        >
                                                        > It was fine here, as far as I'm concerned.

                                                        Coordinated nicely with Rob's "Matter is merely vacuum fluctuations"
                                                        post of yesterday.

                                                        Dave

                                                        What Does it Matter Maru

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                                                      • Dave Land
                                                        See, (Top-posting. So sue me.) This is why, after all the fussin and a-feudin , we stay on this list: to read a post like this one. Thanks, James! Dave ...
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Nov 29, 2008
                                                          See,

                                                          (Top-posting. So sue me.)

                                                          This is why, after all the fussin' and a-feudin', we stay
                                                          on this list: to read a post like this one. Thanks, James!

                                                          Dave

                                                          On Nov 29, 2008, at 6:17 AM, jamespv@... wrote:

                                                          >> Dave said
                                                          >> More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway,
                                                          >> that seems to be something like how the story ends in various
                                                          >> religions. Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?
                                                          > To answer the question about the story or about gods or about
                                                          > mortgagee
                                                          > who is the mortgagee? Now that is a question about Gods and Dogs
                                                          > The same word you see because we come from beyond the sun
                                                          > After our planet blew up in this same galaxy beyond the dog star
                                                          > And rode the debris like it was a space ship to earth and found these
                                                          > Cave dwellers Knee Ander Thralls if you will Ice me doing they thang
                                                          > As we dance and sing and built the great Helios pads mapping stars
                                                          > Trying to get home and mocking our pass and travels to this terror
                                                          > Affirma and so it is and so it shall be we are the extra terror
                                                          > arresta
                                                          > We built the great Peril Amid the unicorn Ah Hiss that dance like
                                                          > Snakes in the cutie and map the mirrors of the sky and invented
                                                          > The greater calendars of the MY Ions and eons and so we are the
                                                          > creators
                                                          > Of worlds before this world and we rose from our rocks and come
                                                          > To the new beginning where the light travel with the lesser speed
                                                          > than me
                                                          > And they come to envy us and wish to belong to us and become our
                                                          > Domesticates so they mortgage they souls for the gold and silver stuff
                                                          > Which were the remnants of our world and this is how it was to be
                                                          > We confounded they tongues and created another language for them
                                                          > And enslaved them to our epic oracles and so it was and so it is
                                                          > That they stole our ideas as we evolved from their dead planet
                                                          > To compete with their virus and our germ the sperm made
                                                          > The journey from the hot rocks now cold and in their water
                                                          > We found our first home and paid our first mortgages and so
                                                          > It was and yet shall it be that one come out to evolve from gods to
                                                          > men
                                                          > Morris J. Peavey, Jr.
                                                          >> From Ghettonomics to the Kinky Nashun where treat stories are told
                                                          > http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Ghettonomics/Morris-J-Peavey/e/9781410721006
                                                          > This is a part of the story of the answer to the story about
                                                          > extraterrestrials
                                                          > But the plot thickens as we move from a world of slaves [and
                                                          > indentures]
                                                          > To the present day wage slaves where we must assume the cost to bear
                                                          > Our own huddles built by the great white god fathers founding our
                                                          > Domesticates dumdomes and marking the paths with their names
                                                          > And polluting our sanctuaries with places to hide somewhere in cavern
                                                          > Or should I say oracles of Diana or OH Dell Fire hell fire realities
                                                          > We got da sum for the ole hum bugs and lady bugs and scarabs
                                                          > also
                                                          > Well if you are real travelers meet me half way and see the trick ah
                                                          > trick
                                                          > Let me show you a mortgagee and I tell you another story about
                                                          > A homeless veteran and homeless morgagee
                                                          > There are a million stories in this world about
                                                          > Lying and taking or property that goes back
                                                          > To when slaves all lived in bunkhouses like
                                                          > American soldiers and never owned what we
                                                          > Got nerves to think we are losing and the world
                                                          > Is bam bam bozzled again and again run amuck
                                                          >> From Ah Kinky Nashun where life is lived to
                                                          > http://mahsstoryy.wordpress.com/category/religion/
                                                          > The great stories have already been told by the science
                                                          > And fiction bluffs! Read and comment!
                                                          > -------------- Original message from Dave Land <dmland@...>:
                                                          > --------------
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >> On Nov 27, 2008, at 1:37 PM, Medievalbk@... wrote:
                                                          >>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> In a message dated 11/27/2008 1:39:50 P.M. US Mountain Standard
                                                          >>> Time,
                                                          >>> dbrin@... writes:
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>>> We might even have become gods and simply moved away!
                                                          >>>>
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> Only if we've paid off the mortgage.
                                                          >>>
                                                          >>> Hmm..... story idea there somewhere.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> More likely that the mortgagee foreclosed on us. Anyway, that seems
                                                          >> to be something like how the story ends in various religions.
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Who is the mortgagee, and who the mortgage holder?
                                                          >>
                                                          >> Dave
                                                          >>
                                                          >> _______________________________________________
                                                          >> http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
                                                          > _______________________________________________
                                                          > http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l

                                                          _______________________________________________
                                                          http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
                                                        • dsummersminet@comcast.net
                                                          ... From: Euan Ritchie euan@ritchie.net.nz Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:56:55 +1300 To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Quantum physics ... Well, that s not really
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Nov 29, 2008
                                                            Original Message:
                                                            -----------------
                                                            From: Euan Ritchie euan@...
                                                            Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 12:56:55 +1300
                                                            To: brin-l@...
                                                            Subject: Quantum physics


                                                            >Recently some physicists announced the result of some serious number
                                                            >crunching that is evidence that the majority of the universes mass is
                                                            >the interaction between quarks that form protons and neutrons.

                                                            Well, that's not really news, right? We've known ever since the quark
                                                            theory was well established (with the November 1974 revolution in particle
                                                            physics), that the pion was a quark-antiquark pair (ups and downs) with a
                                                            mass of 140 Mev, while the proton and neutron had 3 quarks (ups and downs)
                                                            and a mass close to 940 Mev.

                                                            Made of gluons that transmit the strong nuclear force this interaction
                                                            is the 'quantum foam' of bubbling particles popping in and out of
                                                            existence - in theory.

                                                            >I don't like that theory. Not that I'm even remotely qualified to have
                                                            >much of an opinion. I find the concept of particles popping in and out
                                                            >of existence unsatisfying and inelegant. I would only accept it
                                                            >as true if it's merely a way of expressing something deeper (m-branes
                                                            >bending in and out of our dimension for instance).

                                                            So, I take it you don't even like QED, which has been verified to a zillion
                                                            places, because the polarization of the vacume and renormalization? It's
                                                            been around for 50-60 years. Indeed, virtual particles are so inherent in
                                                            quantum theory, I can't think of how to explain the last 80 years of
                                                            physics without them. Maybe Rich knows of such a theory, but I know how
                                                            Weinberg talked about the fact that while one can come up with different
                                                            theories slighly different than special and general relativity that are
                                                            close to right, that one cannot do the same with QM.

                                                            You need to remember that the only purpose of physics is to model
                                                            observations. Discussion what is real and what isn't is metaphysics. Thus,
                                                            the arguements over the interpretation of QM are metaphysical arguements.

                                                            Dan M.

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                                                          • Nick Arnett
                                                            I can t believe nobody mentioned Stephen Baxter s book (he is one of the Bs, after all!). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_Diagrams Now somebody has. I
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Nov 29, 2008
                                                              I can't believe nobody mentioned Stephen Baxter's book (he is one of the Bs,
                                                              after all!).

                                                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_Diagrams

                                                              Now somebody has.

                                                              I certainly enjoyed the book, especially the title story.

                                                              Weird, being on-topic, isn't it?

                                                              Nick
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