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Re: Once more into the 9-11 breach

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  • Gibson Jonathan
    Hello, I see we are going to focus on the mechanical rather than political here. ... OK, what you ve said is reasonable except for the timing and extent of
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 2, 2006
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      Hello,
      I see we are going to focus on the mechanical rather than political
      here.


      On Aug 2, 2006, at 5:25 PM, Robert Seeberger wrote:

      >
      > I think I can explain explosions in the basement, though I would need
      > the electrical plans to the building to verify this but.............
      >
      > When the plane crashes into the building it is quite possible that
      > electrical mains on the affected floors and electrical mains feeding
      > floors higher in the building could be severed.
      > Generally, in a tall building such as the WTC buildings, the main
      > electrical feed (Service Entrance or Service Lateral) and switchgear
      > is located in the basement. When several lines are cut (and shorted
      > certainly), it is quite possible that rather than simply tripping, the
      > breakers exploded and started a fire in the basement.
      > Such an explosion would and could be quite energetic and extremely
      > loud.
      >
      > I've been in a room when a main breaker suffered a direct short, and I
      > can tell you it is like a gunshot going off next to your head. You can
      > feel the shockwave internally and your hearing will be impaired for a
      > couple of hours. (After the TS Allison flood we had a problem with a
      > tripping breaker similarly where this occurred several times over 2
      > hours. When we were ready to try to energize the breaker for the third
      > time, the General Contractors people were running for the door. It is
      > *that* loud and *that* scary.)
      >
      > Now this is all strictly conjecture, but I can envision that after the
      > impact, the main for the entire building might have tripped, and
      > panicked maintenance people might have tried to re-energize the
      > building quickly. In such a situation the breaker might have exploded
      > spewing molten copper and plastic over the people in the area with a
      > plasma fireball possibly 15 to 20 feet in diameter. This would cause
      > very serious injuries if not death. If the voltages were in the medium
      > to high voltage range (4160V to 20,000 V or so) the temperature of the
      > plasma would be as hot as the surface of the sun. A bad situation to
      > find yourself in and many people have died under just such
      > circumstances.
      >
      >

      OK, what you've said is reasonable except for the timing and extent of
      damage to those lower levels. As I mentioned this is a witness telling
      how it went down as he saw it and you really ought to give it a listen.
      He explains much of the structure he was intimately familiar with and
      you can infer more from this than many of the reports one might have
      heard. Frankly, it wasn't until I heard firsthand testimony {firemen}
      that I began to feel my half-hidden questions about the physics should
      be re-examined. I'd note he was lauded in a ceremony by GwB and
      beseeched by numerous Republicans to run for office - except he's a
      democratic sort and declined. It's when he actually started telling
      this tale widely that FBI types began flanking and preceding his
      appearances to intimidate event personnel - at least that's what he has
      relayed in various talks.
      Here's a written account for the auditory handicapped.
      http://www.freezerbox.com/archive/article.php?id=401

      As relayed by Rodriguez he arrived late for work or he'd have been on
      the top floor. He was at the top level of six the basement floors had
      where the maintenance offices were when he felt the explosion about
      8:46 and heard a massive boom and felt an upwelling force move him and
      his co-workers who had been chit-chatting. Walls crack, ceiling fell
      on top of them and THEN they heard the distant pop and tremble from the
      plane hitting above. The skin was hanging off of someone emerging from
      the lower sub-levels that made up the basement levels calling out
      "bomb". This sounds seriously larger than an electrical condenser
      exploding. It took out entire floors filled with tons of heavy HVAC
      gear and presses and metal shops all gone... somewhere. I've tried to
      reconcile the above impact maybe vibrating the base enough to destroy
      the lobby, but something also burst elevator doors out and upward, few
      pieces of the lobby's marble wall cladding remained attached, it
      doesn't add up - to me.
      After many travails and rescuing scores of people unfamiliar with the
      building Rodriguez finally hid under a fire truck when the buildings
      fell.

      One thing nobody in this conversation has taken up is the amazing
      amount of damage to the interior lobby area. Firemen teams who arrived
      found scores of injured in the ruined lobby {not dead smooshed people
      having jumped to their death outside}. Here's some oral histories by
      the firemen and others as MP3:
      http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-WTC-Twin-Towers26jan06.htm

      - Jonathan -
      _______________________________________________
      http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
    • Brother John
      ... Of course, everyone knows that I am just a right-wing crackpot and conspiracy nut, so no one has to pay any attention to me. But my son and I knew that
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 3, 2006
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        Gibson Jonathan wrote:
        > Greetings compatriots,
        >
        > I note the last few days have seen a small wave of 9-11
        > collusion/conspiracy events worth bringing up as they appear to shed
        > yet more light on this heated topic. I'm still digesting what we've
        > already been writing and following up on and I'd rather stew on it
        > further, but events appear to be accelerating. Although there are many
        > fine ideas expressed by our group around what mechanisms, natural -or-
        > otherwise, could have brought the buildings down what is notable is
        > the sheer number and severity of anomalies in timing and eye-witness
        > accounts of these events only makes me ever-more suspicious.
        >
        >
        > First things this morning my news aggregators popped up a Washington
        > Post story stating the 9-11 Commission debated hard over repeated lies
        > and falsehoods put forward by the Pentagon about what and why the
        > military was prevented from following regular procedures for
        > interception that day.
        > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/01/AR2006080101300.html
        >
        > It was argued hard that criminal proceedings should be brought, but
        > politics ruled the day and they deferred action to {executive branch}
        > departments to investigate - if they felt such a whimsy.
        >
        >
        > Last night C-SPAN carried a rare public discussion of the event by
        > some of the figures that members of this discussion group have been
        > quick to demean and they present themselves and {new} facts well.
        > Before you chomp hard on my very short notes please watch the whole
        > segment as there are certainly clues I did not pick up on that will
        > inform this debate. RealVideo = 1:45 minutes. C-SPAN has this in the
        > temp-bin which typically goes away in 60 days.
        > rtsp://video.c-span.org/60days/ap072906_theories.rm?mode=compact
        >
        > Rough highlights:
        > Dr Jones: Where does the molten metal found under World Trade Center 7
        > come from if it wasn't hit by a plane - yet fell symmetrically with
        > all the signs of controlled demolition? Jones claims the substance he
        > found on metal samples from WTC1+2 demonstrate not that Thermite was
        > used, but the patented version known as Thermate - a super
        > demolition-specific version. Sulfer, Manganese, and other elements
        > confirm the yellow-red color of aluminum photographed is Thermate -vs-
        > Themite which runs silvery when it melts aluminum. I'm waiting for my
        > nay-sayer discussion-mates to chime in with another alternative
        > explanation, but I hope they watch the entire show as my notes are
        > cursory and not rigorous.
        >
        > Lt. Col. Bowman: "The truth about 9-11 is we don't know the truth
        > about 9-11."
        > An old interceptor pilot who ran the initial Star Wars program asks,
        > "why were these planes not intercepted?" Bowman is more about heat
        > than light as he's runninng for Congress in Florida, so he's
        > less-filling on the facts side, but well-stocked on the moving forward
        > checklist, "It's time the oil mafia was removed from office and
        > indicted for treason"
        >
        > Tarpley: "It took me 30 seconds to determine this was done as an
        > inside job due to the resources required and location limited just
        > which organizations could make such things happen... This was a coup
        > d'etat. ... Awareness now of these actions will immunize us from
        > future false-flag operations imminently due to push us into war with
        > Iran.
        >
        > Dr Fetzer: Top-Ten reasons hijackers are fake:
        > 10) names of hijackers NOT on airline manifests - not easy to do
        > 9) no bodies available for autopsy
        > 8) 5-7 of these people turning up alive in mid-east & UK
        > 7) FBI suspect lists not modified by these people turning up
        > 6) FBI knew immediately names of all hijackers by Atta's luggage with
        > lists and documents
        > 5) These figures could not have flown the commercial jets.
        > 4) Cell phones don't work at the altitude & speed flying.
        > 3) Cockpit recorders don't record
        > 2) 'Allah Akbar' are not the last words a devout muslim says when
        > confronting death: bad script writing is his suggestion.
        > 1) Moussari confessed to a different crime than what the Government
        > finally convicted him on and FBI spies following him told their
        > superiors 70 times that this man was part of a deadly plot to crash a
        > plane into the White House. Conclusion: he was allowed to roam as a
        > patsy held in reserve. Compare and contrast how Nichols was given
        > decades of prison essentially for not telling anyone McViegh was about
        > to bomb Oklahoma City.
        >
        > Alex Jones: Why did the head of the CIA-centric Defense Language
        > Institute {here in Monterey, California} immediately claim the
        > goivernment was behind this and that three of the hijackers had been
        > studying at his school?
        >
        >
        > I recently listened to WTC survivor and certified hero William
        > Rodriguez describe his actions and what he witnessed that day. It is
        > truly remarkable as a story of repeatedly rescuing people from inside
        > the buildings by someone who worked there for a decade. For years he
        > cleaned the stairwells starting from the top floors working down and
        > was intimately familiar with the structure and procedures which helped
        > him assist firemen and save many lives. What he describes is
        > hair-raising: explosions in the basement that had wounded people
        > piling up in the broken lobby interior even before the firemen arrived
        > {corroborating testimony I have previously heard from the first
        > firemen to arrive}, and odd goings on just up to the few days before
        > it all happened. The sequence of multiple explosions he describes also
        > jibe with the testimony of firemen who survived. It's riveting.
        > http://www.kpfa.org/cgi-bin/gen-mpegurl.m3u?server=157.22.130.4&port=80&file=dummy.m3u&mount=/data/20060726-Wed1300.mp3
        >
        >
        >
        > And Dr Jones talks in depth about the metal analysis he's done. This
        > covers the chemical composition of samples and peculiar angled slicing
        > of steel supports that weakened structure. It's nuanced beyond my
        > familiarity, but perhaps our crew can shed light?
        > http://www.kpfa.org/cgi-bin/gen-mpegurl.m3u?server=157.22.130.4&port=80&file=dummy.m3u&mount=/data/20060802-Wed1300.mp3
        >
        > He mentions URLs for pix and papers, but I didn't note them down.
        >
        >
        > Then there is the Scripps survey out this AM describing 1/3 of
        > Americans now believe something much more odd was going on that day
        > than the official story would have it. Granted this is a measure of
        > the rumor mill and other factors, but consistent with the growing
        > concerns ordinary people are having with this issue.
        > http://www.scrippsnews.com/911poll
        Of course, everyone knows that I am just a right-wing crackpot and
        conspiracy nut, so no one has to pay any attention to me. But my son and
        I knew that 9-11 was an inside job as we watched the towers fall on live
        TV on 9-11. GW and his neocon friends in the oil business obviously
        needed some pretext for starting an ongoing, never ending, perpetual war
        for perpetual peace. Most wars are started by wicked men in high places
        for similar reasons. All of the reasons given are just propaganda to get
        the masses to go along with them. If those who actually run America, and
        I'm not talking about Congress and the White House, really wanted to
        secure this country against terrorism, what would be the first thing
        they would do? Yep, screen everyone who comes and goes just as carefully
        as they currently screen grandmothers in our nation's airports. Is that
        being done? Is it even being attempted? No, of course not. If containers
        coming into our ports are not inspected and screened, and if our borders
        are not secure so that everyone coming in has to go through a proper
        screening, then we haven't got the slightest idea who or what is coming
        and going. *The fact that we still have virtually unlimited entry into
        the country through our ports and across our borders is proof positive
        that the government isn't honest when it talks about fighting terrorism.

        *And if the government isn't serious about terrorism, then what was 9-11
        all about? What is the Iraq war all about? What was the Afghanistan war
        all about? The American people are obviously being played for complete
        suckers, and nearly all of them are blindly going along with it. It is
        hard to imagine how intelligent and educated people can be so gullible,
        but there is the proof, right before our eyes.

        John W. Redelfs jredelfs@...
        ============================================
        "Since we are all children of the same Heavenly Father,
        we really are all brothers and sisters." --Uncle Bob
        ============================================
        All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

        _______________________________________________
        http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
      • Gibson Jonathan
        Greetings, What a week for this topic! This entry is big, so brace for impact. - JG - ... I agree with you to a very large degree. What I ve been trying to
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 4, 2006
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          Greetings,
          What a week for this topic!
          This entry is big, so brace for impact.
          - JG -

          On Aug 3, 2006, at 3:37 PM, Brother John wrote:
          > Of course, everyone knows that I am just a right-wing crackpot and
          > conspiracy nut, so no one has to pay any attention to me. But my son
          > and I knew that 9-11 was an inside job as we watched the towers fall
          > on live TV on 9-11. GW and his neocon friends in the oil business
          > obviously needed some pretext for starting an ongoing, never ending,
          > perpetual war for perpetual peace. Most wars are started by wicked men
          > in high places for similar reasons. All of the reasons given are just
          > propaganda to get the masses to go along with them. If those who
          > actually run America, and I'm not talking about Congress and the White
          > House, really wanted to secure this country against terrorism, what
          > would be the first thing they would do? Yep, screen everyone who comes
          > and goes just as carefully as they currently screen grandmothers in
          > our nation's airports. Is that being done? Is it even being attempted?
          > No, of course not. If containers coming into our ports are not
          > inspected and screened, and if our borders are not secure so that
          > everyone coming in has to go through a proper screening, then we
          > haven't got the slightest idea who or what is coming and going. *The
          > fact that we still have virtually unlimited entry into the country
          > through our ports and across our borders is proof positive that the
          > government isn't honest when it talks about fighting terrorism.
          >
          > *And if the government isn't serious about terrorism, then what was
          > 9-11 all about? What is the Iraq war all about? What was the
          > Afghanistan war all about? The American people are obviously being
          > played for complete suckers, and nearly all of them are blindly going
          > along with it. It is hard to imagine how intelligent and educated
          > people can be so gullible, but there is the proof, right before our
          > eyes.
          >

          I agree with you to a very large degree.
          What I've been trying to divine from all these entrails is the big
          picture, nay grand design, to explain the some of the oddities of GwB
          that day and other mysteries. Watching the 9-11 Truth Symposium is
          useful, but mostly a recap for those of us digging into this with any
          vigor while trying to keep a level head above murky waters. Last night
          I heard Webster Tarpley speak in depth and great length about this and
          it is stunning. I find myself speaking in the present because it has
          been reverberating in my head ever since. His delivery is thankfully
          clear and relatively simple although the topic convoluted. This
          probably saved me getting apoplectic or going ballistic with agitation.
          He ends with a real note of hopeful optimism I resonate with and hope
          all of you will too. I've been feeling this must transcend political
          flavors if we are going to resolve what has been done to us. I feel
          certain some important ground was shifted this week.


          But first, I spent some unexpected idle moments yesterday to going over
          the just-revealed NORAD clips and transcripts from Vanity Fair. This
          is significant as it dents a number of assertions this administration
          has put forth with vigor. Give it a read/listen.
          http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01
          As an invaluable aid, check out the Cooperative Research
          minute-by-minute timeline as you work through the Vanity Fair piece.
          http://complete911timeline.org/timeline.jsp?
          timeline=complete_911_timeline&day_of_9/11=dayOf911


          Since I don't have Webster Tarpey's book to quote, here's the White
          Rose Society clip of the interview {skip 1st 1/2 of three-hour show}
          http://server4.WhiteRoseSociety.org/content/malloy/MalloyShow-(03-08
          -2006).mp3
          and my own snipped version w/o commercials {down to 1 1/2 hours}
          http://www.formandfunction.com/word/wordbits/MalloyShow-(03-08-2006).mov
          I can't listen to Mike Malloy every day, nor for long, as he has a
          rather strong, shall we call it "Altoid," flavor that takes getting
          used to, but he's in restrained mode in this lengthy interview.

          Webster claims this organization has been around since Grover Cleveland
          & JP Morgan tracing its use of the USS Maine explosion as pretext to
          launch the Great White Fleet in America's first imperialist power play,
          behind a fascist march to take over DC in 1933, to Gulf of Tonkin, JFK
          assassination, Iran-Contra... and now 9-11.
          He started on this trail when the Red Brigade kidnapped the Italian
          Foreign Minister in the 70's and his body was found a few blocks from
          where he was working - the Italian government asked him to investigate
          and he found the actual backers of this group were NATO intelligence
          gone bad... the Red Brigade and other shadowy groups, like P2 Lodge &
          Gladio, set up as fall-back terrorist harassment networks in case the
          Soviets rolled through Europe, but they took matters into their own
          hands early.

          Why was Able Danger set up? This was apparently run by those case
          officers who set up the patsy network needed to misdirect outrage
          externally to the alien brown people... and thus appeal to emotional
          stimulas & tribal instincts of implicit mistrust of the Other when
          one's group is attacked {my inferrence, not Websters}.
          Who were the patsies? These "terrorists" were probably a troupe of
          characters normally posed, deputized, by the FBI to play roles in
          hijacking drills. Several were here in Monterey at the Defense
          Language Institute, staying on bases in Florida, living with FBI
          informants. At some point the official, legal, drill is flipped and a
          few changes make them into unwitting punching bags at a fixed fight.
          Moles protect the patsies until they are turned on for sacrifice to
          their grand story line.
          The day of 9-11 is notable as the greatest density of military/security
          drills for America in all of US history. Fifteen operations - maybe
          more - were in motion that morning across the nation. Between drills,
          electronic spoofs and military craft with faked transponders Web states
          it would not be that hard to whisk away or mislabel planeloads of
          people to explain where-away the apparently hapless victims of {at
          least some of} those jets. By the time the FAA is busy sorting out
          what is real and what is not there are some 29 hijacked planes
          supposedly being tracked - which leads to an intended paralysis. Moles
          within our military and civil structures complete the hoax for those
          operating levers in honest efforts to follow procedures and stand ready
          to thwart them if need be. The recent NORAD tapes are unravelling the
          Big Lie as repeatedly presented by this White House.
          Russian, French, and other intelligence networks note that from the
          earliest hours of that morning B1 + B52's where sent skyward & all
          nuked-up, submarines were wired for a showdown and at active high-alert
          status long before the Towers were hit. And there were apparently
          attack plans for Afghanistan presented to Bush that weekend before this
          operation so they would be fresh in his mind.
          Bush is an expendable fop in the eyes of this cabal and why he is
          pointedly left vulnerable at that schoolhouse long after it was clear
          an attack was in progress when by normal procedures he should have been
          whisked away after the first plane - and certainly by the second hit.
          The head of the Secret Service that day should be brought in leg irons
          before a court. When GwB finally leaves he has NO FIGHTER ESCORT and
          spends the day flying to command bunkers to assert his nuclear
          authority while he accedes to his puppet-master's demands. Why would he
          need to do this? Because, the code word "Angel" {this is Air Force One}
          and a bevy of other God-level type C&C codes were sent him to declare
          they were in charge and if he wanted to live through the day he needed
          to blame 9-11 on Arab crazies and get set to take over central Asia.
          By issuing these trigger words directly to Air Force One the hidden
          hand of those black hearts within our midst reveal they have
          deliberately hijacked our country for their own narrow nefarious
          purposes.
          This is a classic - if high-tech - coup d'etat.

          ... I agree with Webster that this is our chance to set things right.
          9-11 truth shall illuminate a political landscape made murky and dim
          over the decades and we are due for a re-aligment that will throw these
          neo-slaver shackles off our video-soaked eyes. Here is our last best
          opportunity to thwart those who would engineer WWIII upon us. As
          Tarpley puts it, we have two roads ahead: take the 9-11 Truth Movement
          path and survive by disarming the mantra of 9-11, 9-11, 9-11
          fear-reflex acting upon America -or- all hold hands and jump into a
          nuclear lake of fire spreading global aggression heedless of the sharp
          hidden objects called 'unintended responses' that will appear as the
          other global players try to stop our madness.
          This is a political earthquake rumbling through our system and growing
          strength - almost daily. This is so clearly beyond the Right and Left,
          Republican -v- Democrat, bipolar norms of civic discourse we've been
          operating under that we should take heart and see this as a real
          optimistic chance to start setting things right, redeem ourselves, and
          our good name before the world.
          Before our lives change beyond recognition.

          There's more... Oh, so much more to digest.
          I've blogged all this today in greater depth, if anyone is interested.
          I didn't want this letter to get Homeric and my wee head is over-full.
          www.formandfunction.com/word

          - Jonathan -
          _______________________________________________
          http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
        • Robert Seeberger
          http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060805/ap_on_go_ot/sept11_commission_7 The Sept. 11 commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements by the Pentagon and
          Message 4 of 7 , Aug 5, 2006
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            http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060805/ap_on_go_ot/sept11_commission_7

            The Sept. 11 commission was so frustrated with repeated misstatements
            by the Pentagon and FAA about their response to the 2001 terror
            attacks that it considered an investigation into possible deception,
            the panel's chairmen say in a new book.

            Republican Thomas Kean and Democrat Lee Hamilton also say in "Without
            Precedent" that their panel was too soft in questioning former New
            York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani � and that the 20-month investigation may
            have suffered for it.

            The book, a behind-the-scenes look at the investigation, recounts
            obstacles the authors say were thrown up by the Bush administration,
            internal disputes over President Bush's use of the attacks as a reason
            for invading Iraq, and the way the final report avoided questioning
            whether U.S. policy in the Middle East may have contributed to the
            attacks.

            Kean and Hamilton said the commission found it mind-boggling that
            authorities had asserted during hearings that their air defenses had
            reacted quickly and were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight
            93, which appeared headed toward Washington.

            In fact, the commission determined � after it subpoenaed audiotapes
            and e-mails of the sequence of events � that the shootdown order did
            not reach North American Aerospace Command pilots until after all of
            the hijacked planes had crashed.

            The book states that commission staff, "exceedingly frustrated" by
            what they thought could be deception, proposed a full review into why
            the FAA and the Pentagon's NORAD had presented inaccurate information.
            That ultimately could have led to sanctions.

            Due to a lack of time, the panel ultimately referred the matter to the
            inspectors general at the Pentagon and Transportation Department. Both
            are preparing reports, spokesmen said this week.

            "Fog of war could explain why some people were confused on the day of
            9/11, but it could not explain why all of the after-action reports,
            accident investigations and public testimony by FAA and NORAD
            officials advanced an account of 9/11 that was untrue," the book
            states.

            The questioning of Giuliani was considered by Kean and Hamilton "a low
            point" in the commission's examination of witnesses during public
            hearings. "We did not ask tough questions, nor did we get all of the
            information we needed to put on the public record," they wrote.

            Commission members backed off, Kean and Hamilton said, after drawing
            criticism in newspaper editorials for sharp questioning of New York
            fire and police officials at earlier hearings. The editorials said the
            commission was insensitive to the officials' bravery on the day of the
            attacks.

            "It proved difficult, if not impossible, to raise hard questions about
            9/11 in New York without it being perceived as criticism of the
            individual police and firefighters or of Mayor Giuliani," Kean and
            Hamilton said.

            Congress established the commission in 2002 to investigate government
            missteps leading to the Sept. 11 attacks. Its 567-page unanimous
            report, which was released in July 2004 and became a national best
            seller, does not blame Bush or former President Clinton but does say
            they failed to make anti-terrorism a high priority before the attacks.

            The panel of five Republicans and five Democrats also concluded that
            the Sept. 11 attacks would not be the nation's last, noting that
            al-Qaida had tried for at least 10 years to acquire weapons of mass
            destruction.

            In their book, which goes on sale Aug. 15, Kean and Hamilton recap
            obstacles they say the panel faced in putting out a credible report in
            a presidential election year, including fights for access to
            government documents and an effort to reach unanimity.

            Among the issues:

            � Iraq. The commission threatened to splinter over the question of
            investigating the administration's use of 9/11 as a reason for going
            to war. The strongest proponent was original member Max Cleland, a
            Democratic former senator who later stepped down for separate reasons.

            If Cleland had not resigned, the commission probably would not have
            reached unanimity, according to the book. Ultimately, commissioners
            decided to touch briefly on the Iraq war by concluding there was no
            "collaborative relationship" between Saddam Hussein and al-Qaida; the
            administration had asserted there were substantial contacts between
            the two.

            � Israel. The commission disagreed as to how to characterize
            al-Qaida's motives for attacking the U.S., with Hamilton arguing that
            the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the presence of U.S. forces in
            the Middle East were major contributors.

            Unidentified members believed that "listing U.S. support for Israel as
            a root cause of al-Qaida's opposition to the United States indicated
            that the United States should reassess that policy," which those
            commission members did not want.

            Ultimately, the panel made a brief statement noting that U.S. policy
            regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and Iraq are "dominant
            staples of popular commentary across the Arab and Muslim world."

            � Access to detainees. The panel pushed for direct access to
            detainees, at one point proposing to be at least physically present or
            to listen by telephone during interrogations so they could gauge
            credibility and get unvarnished accounts.

            The administration resisted, citing concerns about national security.
            Officials also said they feared setting a precedent of access by a
            nongovernment entity that could undermine the administration's
            position that the Geneva Conventions did not apply to detainees
            classified as "enemy combatants."

            The commission agreed to submit questions and receive written
            responses. Later, allegations emerged of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib
            and Guantanamo Bay that probably played a factor in the government's
            resistance, the book states.



            xponent

            A Deepness In The Story Maru

            rob


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          • Horn, John
            ... people ... by ... http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-WTC-Twin-Towers26jan06.htm Did anyone survey these people to determine where they were when they
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 7, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              > On Behalf Of Gibson Jonathan
              >
              > One thing nobody in this conversation has taken up is the amazing
              > amount of damage to the interior lobby area. Firemen teams
              > who arrived
              > found scores of injured in the ruined lobby {not dead smooshed
              people
              > having jumped to their death outside}. Here's some oral histories
              by
              > the firemen and others as MP3:
              >
              http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2006/911-WTC-Twin-Towers26jan06.htm

              Did anyone survey these people to determine where they were when
              they were injured? Or asked them what happened? Some of them must
              have survived. Yet none of these stories seem to do that. Maybe
              these folks were hurt up higher and came down?

              Immediately after 9-11 I heard some people speculate that the
              explosions were channeled down the elevator shafts and blew out the
              elevators in the lobby. I haven't heard anything more about that, I
              don't believe.

              - jmh


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