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Re: Response to sorryeverybody

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  • JDG
    ... You got me! I was thinking that a response would be something to the effect of www.sorelosers.com . Suffice to say that I was disappointed..... :-(
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 1, 2004
      At 08:29 AM 12/1/2004 EST Kanandarqu@... wrote:
      >A response to sorryeverybody.com-
      >
      >www.apologiesaccepted.com

      You got me! I was thinking that a "response" would be something to the
      effect of www.sorelosers.com . Suffice to say that I was
      disappointed..... :-(

      Anyhow, this stuff has got me thinking again.... there is a certain cadre
      of Kerry-supporters who get quite agitated about every perceived slight
      against the "patriotism" of their fellow Kerry-supporters.

      Yet, isn't there something slighlty unpatriotic about apologizing to the
      world for the results of the election? And for feeling ashamed about the
      political preferences of a majority of American voters? Wouldn't
      patriotism ordinarily suggest that as Americans we work out our differences
      "in house" (or "in the family" if you will)?

      Just a thought.....

      JDG - No Apologies, Maru.....

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    • Kanandarqu@aol.com
      ... Quick answer, not the wisest, but I am living dangerously today...... Oh good golly, where do I get stock in those soap boxes you stand on? Sorry is a
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
        >John wrote-
        >You got me! I was thinking that a "response" would be something to the
        >effect of www.sorelosers.com . Suffice to say that I was
        >disappointed..... :-(
        >
        >Anyhow, this stuff has got me thinking again.... there is a certain cadre
        >of Kerry-supporters who get quite agitated about every perceived slight
        >against the "patriotism" of their fellow Kerry-supporters.
        >
        >Yet, isn't there something slighlty unpatriotic about apologizing to the
        >world for the results of the election? And for feeling ashamed about the
        >political preferences of a majority of American voters? Wouldn't
        >patriotism ordinarily suggest that as Americans we work out our differences
        >"in house" (or "in the family" if you will)?

        Quick answer, not the wisest, but I am living dangerously today......

        Oh good golly, where do I get stock in those soap boxes you stand on?

        "Sorry" is a personal word, it rests in individual hopes and dreams and
        letdowns of countrymen/women. I think "ashamed" is interpretive(?). I think you
        read way too much into this and should maybe revisit the site and read the FAQ
        without that chip on your shoulder. You don't feel the need to apologize to
        anyone and that is your perogative

        A gallery is art, art has personal meaning. Heck, I have never given much
        thought to it but there is quite a bit of election art as much as buttons, signs
        etc- this is just an extension of that to post election art (just because the
        signs are all out of the yards and the airwaves are not full of mud slinging,
        it doesn't mean there isn't a "recovery" period after an election.)

        Trying to keep it "all in the family" and not respond to the "outsiders"
        hopes and dreams is like ignoring an elephant in the room. Trying to recognize
        opinions around the globe is like recognizing feelings in a family- bury them,
        ignore them, etc and it doesn't help keep the family "functional". Ahhhh, the
        website says it probably better than I could. I am not a "disciple", I do
        think the concept is neat.

        I saw F-9/11 with Canadian, Australian and a Netherlander (?), which led to
        great dialog that broadened my perspectives without changing my love of this
        country. Dialog is not about "trashing and rehashing". The movie was a great
        way for us to talk and have a bit of fun, I was also glad it wasn't going to be
        entered for awards as a "documentary". All this art keeps us talking about
        things that enrich me more than just election results.

        Dee
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      • Warren Ockrassa
        ... What does a backyard movie have to do with what we re discussing here? ... No, that s isolationism, not patriotism. You might not want to admit it, but we
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
          On Dec 1, 2004, at 10:38 PM, JDG wrote:

          > At 08:29 AM 12/1/2004 EST Kanandarqu@... wrote:
          >> A response to sorryeverybody.com-
          >>
          >> www.apologiesaccepted.com
          >
          > You got me! I was thinking that a "response" would be something to
          > the
          > effect of www.sorelosers.com . Suffice to say that I was
          > disappointed..... :-(

          What does a backyard movie have to do with what we're discussing here?

          > Yet, isn't there something slighlty unpatriotic about apologizing to
          > the
          > world for the results of the election? And for feeling ashamed
          > about the
          > political preferences of a majority of American voters? Wouldn't
          > patriotism ordinarily suggest that as Americans we work out our
          > differences
          > "in house" (or "in the family" if you will)?

          No, that's isolationism, not patriotism. You might not want to admit
          it, but we are living *on a planet* with *other nations* comprised of
          *other people*. And there are more of them than there are of us. At the
          very least it behooves us to not act with arbitrary arrogance; while
          this is not a lesson yet understood by the goons in the US government,
          I'd hope individuals, who are not bound by their own actions into a set
          course from which no deviance is possible, might be capable of seeing a
          larger picture.

          Duh-bya is stuck. Cheney's hand is so deep in his backside he has no
          choice but to do what he does, even if it means destroying essentially
          every alliance we've made in the last fifty years. That problem,
          however, is not yours, nor mine nor anyone else's.

          How do you rationally think we can "fight" a "war on terror" without
          allies? Take it a step further: How can we possibly win allies with the
          creeps we have in charge now? The world is NOT going to change for the
          sake of the US. You might want to absorb that fact.

          This is real grassroots patriotism. The kind you're suggesting we
          follow is much closer to nationalism, and I for one refuse to march in
          lockstep with current policy, because I am certain to my core that it
          is wrong in every aspect.

          "My country, right or wrong" is not thinking. It's not even an
          argument. It's just plain dumb.


          --
          Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books
          http://books.nightwares.com/
          Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror"
          http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf

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        • Warren Ockrassa
          ... This is an excellent point. To the extent that family secrets are treated as shameful, and to the extent that keep it in the family is used as a
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
            On Dec 2, 2004, at 8:37 AM, Kanandarqu@... wrote:

            > Trying to recognize
            > opinions around the globe is like recognizing feelings in a family-
            > bury them,
            > ignore them, etc and it doesn't help keep the family "functional".

            This is an excellent point. To the extent that "family secrets" are
            treated as shameful, and to the extent that "keep it in the family" is
            used as a control measure, there's a long history of abuse and misery
            found in closed, secretive families.

            Looking at this from a national perspective, then, we have some
            arguments against being secretive or acting as though we're isolated.
            For one thing, liberty and secrecy cannot co-reside. The more emphasis
            that is placed on secrecy, the less liberty is available. I'm not
            interested in watching this society tumble into that abyss.

            More importantly, secrets fester. (Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo.) Terrible
            things happen quickly behind walls of isolation.

            What happens, for instance, when a person, an individual, withdraws
            from the world, isolates himself from outside views, separates himself
            from everyone around him? We tend to mistrust such people, and rightly
            so; Ted Kaczynski was such a person. So was Jeff Dahmer.

            What happens when leaders do the same? Only surround themselves with
            people who support their views, who offer them filtered news accounts?
            They end up nuts, like Hitler was, like Saddam was. (And yes, I am
            aware that GWB spends an inordinate amount of time on his ranch, that
            he admits to not reading the newspapers, that he has deliberately
            surrounded himself with cronies and yes-men, and it should scare the
            hell out of everyone to consider that.)

            Going beyond the fact that is is IMPOSSIBLE for problems in the US to
            be solved "in the family" -- since everything we do does tend to affect
            the rest of the world -- there is plenty of precedent to argue that
            anything but an open society, anything that involves secrecy to an
            obsessive degree -- is toxic or contributes to a toxic atmosphere.

            How toxic? It even seems reasonable, for some, to argue that the act of
            caring about international opinion is unpatriotic. John's opinion seems
            to be a product of an unhealthy obsession with isolation, secrecy and
            nationalistic hubris. His point of view alone is really sufficient
            argument against itself, to anyone who considers it for a few minutes.


            --
            Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books
            http://books.nightwares.com/
            Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror"
            http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf

            _______________________________________________
            http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
          • JDG
            ... Really? ... FAQ ... Well, Dee, I read the FAQ, and here is what I found: 4 years ago, it was a strange sight for us to see the American people putting a
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
              At 10:37 AM 12/2/2004 EST Kanandarqu@... wrote:
              >"Sorry" is a personal word, it rests in individual hopes and dreams and
              >letdowns of countrymen/women. I think "ashamed" is interpretive(?).

              Really?

              >I think you
              >read way too much into this and should maybe revisit the site and read the
              FAQ
              >without that chip on your shoulder.

              Well, Dee, I read the FAQ, and here is what I found:

              "4 years ago, it was a strange sight for us to see the American people
              putting a monkey in the White House."

              "Sorryeverybody.com was an American initiative to show that this view needs
              some adjustment. 48% of those who voted against Bush uttered their shame by
              simply displaying themselves along with a written note that expresses that
              shame"

              Apparently, "shame" was an interpretive shared by the leaders of this site
              that you reccomended, so I don't think that my interpretation was too far
              off base.

              JDG

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            • Kanandarqu@aol.com
              ... Here is the merican site, the sorry site (versus the apologies accepted site) http://www.sorryeverybody.com/faq/ Dee
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 2, 2004
                >John wrote-
                >Well, Dee, I read the FAQ, and here is what I found

                Here is the 'merican site, the "sorry" site
                (versus the apologies accepted site)

                http://www.sorryeverybody.com/faq/

                Dee
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