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Gay Marriage

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  • MironMurcury@aol.com
    Gay Marriage! Haven t we done enough to those people already! Asked a New Yorker cartoon. The gay marriage issue is, to me, somewhat akin to trying to argue
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 5, 2004
      "Gay Marriage! Haven't we done enough to those people already!" Asked a New
      Yorker cartoon.

      The gay marriage issue is, to me, somewhat akin to trying to argue about
      race. Race does not exist, sexuality is fluid, and, as far as I can tell,
      preordained.
      I would prefer government helps people, not artificially hinders them.

      There is a much greater threat to our social fabric. A threat as real as
      a time bomb waiting to explode: Education, or rather, the lack there of.
      In my local school district the percentage of students receiving grades
      of D and F is, alarmingly high.

      Stupidity is a greater threat to or nation then alien terrorists. Home
      grown terrorists, druggies with guns and to much testosterone, should be
      eliminated, making America a safe country to live in.

      Yours,
      MM
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    • Warren Ockrassa
      ... Actually the amendments that passed generally block *all* kinds of marriage by proclaiming it s one man:one woman only. Plural marriage is out, and there s
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 5, 2004
        On Nov 5, 2004, at 4:51 PM, MironMurcury@... wrote:

        > "Gay Marriage! Haven't we done enough to those people already!" Asked
        > a New
        > Yorker cartoon.

        Actually the amendments that passed generally block *all* kinds of
        marriage by proclaiming it's one man:one woman only. Plural marriage is
        out, and there's lots of room to wrangle what "man" and "woman"
        actually mean legally. At the very least it is arguable that no one
        under 18 can be married in those states either now.

        > There is a much greater threat to our social fabric. A threat as real
        > as
        > a time bomb waiting to explode: Education, or rather, the lack there
        > of.

        [The pedant in me wants to point out that the term is "thereof", not
        "there of".]

        > In my local school district the percentage of students receiving grades
        > of D and F is, alarmingly high.

        Not around here; they've just lowered standards to the point that
        students pass anyway.

        Mind you that's at the local charter school. The public schools are
        being abandoned in droves by students who whine that the curriculum is
        "too hard" and whose parents are tired of having their kids flunk.

        When students become customers, education is doomed.

        > Stupidity is a greater threat to or nation then alien terrorists. Home
        > grown terrorists, druggies with guns and to much testosterone, should
        > be
        > eliminated, making America a safe country to live in.

        How do you propose doing the above?


        --
        Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books
        http://books.nightwares.com/
        Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror"
        http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf

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      • Deborah Harrell
        Warren Ockrassa wrote: ... Or to emulate your choice of wording: When patients become customers, medicine is doomed. Vioxx.
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 29, 2004
          Warren Ockrassa <warren@...> wrote:
          <snippage>

          > Mind you that's at the local charter school. The
          > public schools are
          > being abandoned in droves by students who whine that
          > the curriculum is
          > "too hard" and whose parents are tired of having
          > their kids flunk.
          >
          > When students become customers, education is doomed.

          Or to emulate your choice of wording:
          When patients become customers, medicine is doomed.

          Vioxx.
          Toenail fungus.
          Major medical centers that offer unproven therapies as
          viable alternatives.

          Wishful thinking does not equal scientific evidence.
          Expunging the _art_ of medicine from "healthcare
          delivery" benefits corporations, but not the ill.

          I never did bet any quatloos on the outcome of thrall
          combat, yet was designated a "provider." >:/
          Oddly, it didn't say that on my diploma.

          I was told in school that one of the major functions
          of an internist was to educate patients about their
          disease and health, but in practice was criticised for
          taking the time to do so. Silly me! Didn't I see that
          an uninformed - or even better, *misinformed* - ill
          person is a much better consumer of miracle drugs,
          sure-fire diets and wondrous contraptions!? Why
          should anyone have to _work_ at being healthy, when
          it's so much more *convenient* to pop a pill?!

          Debbi
          who still has 2000+ List posts to peruse <sigh>
          ...and is only joking a teensy bit...



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        • Erik Reuter
          ... You lost me at Toenail fungus . Are we being given a test, which one of these does not belong? :-) My best guess is that you referring to the FDA s
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 29, 2004
            On Wed, Dec 29, 2004 at 01:50:14PM -0800, Deborah Harrell wrote:
            > Or to emulate your choice of wording:
            > When patients become customers, medicine is doomed.
            >
            > Vioxx.
            > Toenail fungus.
            > Major medical centers that offer unproven therapies as
            > viable alternatives.
            >
            > Wishful thinking does not equal scientific evidence.
            > Expunging the _art_ of medicine from "healthcare
            > delivery" benefits corporations, but not the ill.

            You lost me at "Toenail fungus". Are we being given a test, which one of
            these does not belong? :-) My best guess is that you referring to the
            FDA's warning in 2001 about Lamisil possibly causing liver damage? If
            so, how is that the "customers" or "patients" fault? If the FDA has good
            evidence for danger, why is it still allowing Lamisil to be sold (and
            heavily advertised)?


            --
            Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/
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          • Deborah Harrell
            ... ... Now you re going to make that song play in my head all the way home! The library s closing, so I can t give you the full cite press, but
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 29, 2004
              > Erik Reuter <ereuter@...> wrote:
              > >Deborah Harrell wrote:

              > > Or to emulate your choice of wording:
              > > When patients become customers, medicine is
              > doomed.
              > >
              > > Vioxx.
              > > Toenail fungus.
              > > Major medical centers that offer unproven
              > therapies as
              > > viable alternatives.
              <sniplet>

              > You lost me at "Toenail fungus". Are we being given
              > a test, which one of
              > these does not belong? :-) My best guess is that you
              > referring to the
              > FDA's warning in 2001 about Lamisil possibly causing
              > liver damage? If
              > so, how is that the "customers" or "patients" fault?
              > If the FDA has good
              > evidence for danger, why is it still allowing
              > Lamisil to be sold (and heavily advertised)?

              Now you're going to make that song play in my head all
              the way home!

              The library's closing, so I can't give you the full
              cite press, but mostly 'yep.' In the side effect
              profile for Lamisil (and most if not all antifungals
              that are taken internally), liver damage is listed.
              This has to do with the cell membrane construction of
              fungi, which IIRC has more in common with mammalian
              cells...cholesterol-based compounds? (I'll look that
              up.)

              My point is more that it's a cosmetic problem if you
              like to show off your feet (could be more serious for
              the severely immunosuppressed, of course), yet the
              advertising implies that because it's an infection (I
              prefer to call it an infestation since it's
              superficial, and perhaps b/c I've had a problem with
              one
              horse-stepped-upon-and-susequently-ripped-off-toenail!),
              *it needs to be treated with an expensive and
              potentially harmful* drug. It doesn't. But unless
              you do your homework, you'd agree with that worried
              lady in the ad who mutters "Infection...?"

              Must go now!

              Debbi
              Closin' Down The Library Maru :)



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            • Damon Agretto
              ... It may be a cosmetic problem, but its also a real pain. I sometimes have problems with my *toes* hurting because the nails are too thick, and filing them
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 29, 2004
                >My point is more that it's a cosmetic problem if you
                >like to show off your feet (could be more serious for
                >the severely immunosuppressed, of course), yet the
                >advertising implies that because it's an infection (I
                >prefer to call it an infestation since it's
                >superficial, and perhaps b/c I've had a problem with
                >one
                >horse-stepped-upon-and-susequently-ripped-off-toenail!),
                >*it needs to be treated with an expensive and
                >potentially harmful* drug. It doesn't. But unless
                >you do your homework, you'd agree with that worried
                >lady in the ad who mutters "Infection...?"

                It may be a cosmetic problem, but its also a real pain. I sometimes have
                problems with my *toes* hurting because the nails are too thick, and filing
                them down is tedious and time consuming (that said, I did get a Dremel
                mototool for Xmas, so that might help out...as long as I don't cut my toes
                off!). I've considered taking the "curative" to get rid of it, though with
                this knowledge I'd reconsider. But really, what other type of cure is
                available? The creams are not nearly as effective, and can't do anything
                with the infestation under the nail...

                Damon, recipient of yet another gift from the Army...

                ------------------------------------------------------------
                Damon Agretto
                dcaa@...
                "Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum."
                http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html
                Now Building: Revell of Germany's M60A3
                ------------------------------------------------------------

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              • Warren Ockrassa
                ... The image that spawns -- you carving away at your toes with a small rotary power tool, toenail dust flying all over -- is a cross between hilarious and
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 30, 2004
                  On Dec 29, 2004, at 7:00 PM, Damon Agretto wrote:

                  > that said, I did get a Dremel mototool for Xmas

                  The image that spawns -- you carving away at your toes with a small
                  rotary power tool, toenail dust flying all over -- is a cross between
                  hilarious and disgusting.

                  Thanks! :D


                  --
                  Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books
                  http://books.nightwares.com/
                  Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror"
                  http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf

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                • Robert Seeberger
                  ... From: Warren Ockrassa To: Killer Bs Discussion Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 6:53 PM Subject: Re:
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 30, 2004
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Warren Ockrassa" <warren@...>
                    To: "Killer Bs Discussion" <brin-l@...>
                    Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2004 6:53 PM
                    Subject: Re: Education - or lack thereof (was: Gay Marriage)


                    > On Dec 29, 2004, at 7:00 PM, Damon Agretto wrote:
                    >
                    > > that said, I did get a Dremel mototool for Xmas
                    >
                    > The image that spawns -- you carving away at your toes with a small
                    > rotary power tool, toenail dust flying all over -- is a cross
                    between
                    > hilarious and disgusting.
                    >

                    I imagine that toenail dust (with real fungus included) would be great
                    for your lungs.

                    xponent
                    My Other Lung Is A Smoker Maru
                    rob


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                  • Bryon Daly
                    ... It s been done before... My wife got a pedicure a few weeks ago and was quite surprised when the man doing it whipped out a Dremel and promised he d be
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 30, 2004
                      On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:00:43 -0500, Damon Agretto <dcaa@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > It may be a cosmetic problem, but its also a real pain. I sometimes have
                      > problems with my *toes* hurting because the nails are too thick, and filing
                      > them down is tedious and time consuming (that said, I did get a Dremel
                      > mototool for Xmas, so that might help out...as long as I don't cut my toes
                      > off!). I've considered taking the "curative" to get rid of it, though with

                      It's been done before...
                      My wife got a pedicure a few weeks ago and was quite surprised when
                      the man doing it whipped out a Dremel and promised he'd be done twice
                      as fast that way. None of the women giving pedicures were using
                      Dremels. He did a good job, though, and was done quickly, and with no
                      dismemberments, etc. to speak of.
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                    • Reggie Bautista
                      ... filing ... toes ... with ... The vet that we take our guinea pigs and pygmie hedgehog to see uses a Dremel to do their nails. Also, the long front teath
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jan 2, 2005
                        > On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 21:00:43 -0500, Damon Agretto <dcaa@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > It may be a cosmetic problem, but its also a real pain. I sometimes have
                        > > problems with my *toes* hurting because the nails are too thick, and
                        filing
                        > > them down is tedious and time consuming (that said, I did get a Dremel
                        > > mototool for Xmas, so that might help out...as long as I don't cut my
                        toes
                        > > off!). I've considered taking the "curative" to get rid of it, though
                        with

                        Bryon Daly replied:

                        > It's been done before...
                        > My wife got a pedicure a few weeks ago and was quite surprised when
                        > the man doing it whipped out a Dremel and promised he'd be done twice
                        > as fast that way. None of the women giving pedicures were using
                        > Dremels. He did a good job, though, and was done quickly, and with no
                        > dismemberments, etc. to speak of.

                        The vet that we take our guinea pigs and pygmie hedgehog to see uses a
                        Dremel to do their nails. Also, the long front teath of guinea pigs
                        continue to grow their entire life, and when they are not in the wild they
                        often grow long enough to become a problem. Our vet uses her Dremel to file
                        those down too.

                        Reggie
                        <relurking>


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                      • Doug Pensinger
                        ... We use dremels to cope talons and beaks at the wildlife rescue. I coped a barn owl this morning in fact. We use the battery powered dremels that don t
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jan 2, 2005
                          Reggie wrote:

                          > The vet that we take our guinea pigs and pygmie hedgehog to see uses a
                          > Dremel to do their nails. Also, the long front teath of guinea pigs
                          > continue to grow their entire life, and when they are not in the wild
                          > they
                          > often grow long enough to become a problem. Our vet uses her Dremel to
                          > file
                          > those down too.

                          We use dremels to cope talons and beaks at the wildlife rescue. I coped a
                          barn owl this morning in fact. We use the battery powered dremels that
                          don't really have much torque and aren't as noisy.

                          --
                          Doug
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                        • Deborah Harrell
                          ... ... But then I should have had *4* things listed, to give you the full choice range! :) ... Here s a bit of an overview:
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jan 3, 2005
                            >I wrote:
                            > > Erik Reuter <ereuter@...> wrote:
                            > > >Deborah Harrell wrote:

                            <snippage throughout>
                            > > > Toenail fungus.

                            > > You lost me at "Toenail fungus". Are we being
                            > given
                            > > a test, which one of
                            > > these does not belong? :-) My best guess is that
                            > > referring to the
                            > > FDA's warning in 2001 about Lamisil possibly
                            > >causing liver damage? If
                            > > so, how is that the "customers" or "patients"
                            > >fault? If the FDA has good
                            > > evidence for danger, why is it still allowing
                            > > Lamisil to be sold (and heavily advertised)?

                            > Now you're going to make that song play in my head
                            > all the way home!

                            But then I should have had *4* things listed, to give
                            you the full choice range! :)

                            > .....mostly 'yep.' In the side effect
                            > profile for Lamisil (and most if not all antifungals
                            > that are taken internally), liver damage is listed.
                            > This has to do with the cell membrane construction
                            > of
                            > fungi, which IIRC has more in common with mammalian
                            > cells...cholesterol-based compounds? (I'll look
                            > that up.)

                            Here's a bit of an overview:
                            http://gsbs.utmb.edu/microbook/ch076.htm
                            "Amphotericin, nystatin, and pimaricin interact with
                            sterols in the cell membrane (ergosterol in fungi,
                            cholesterol in humans) to form channels through which
                            small molecules leak from the inside of the fungal
                            cell to the outside.

                            "Fluconazole, itraconazole, and ketoconazole inhibit
                            cytochrome P450-dependent enzymes (particularly
                            C14-demethylase) involved in the biosynthesis of
                            ergosterol, which is required for fungal cell membrane
                            structure and function.

                            "Allylamines (naftifine, terbinafine) inhibit
                            ergosterol biosynthesis at the level of squalene
                            epoxidase. The morpholine drug, amorolfine, inhibits
                            the same pathway at a later step...

                            "...The development of antifungal agents has lagged
                            behind that of antibacterial agents. This is a
                            predictable consequence of the cellular structure of
                            the organisms involved. Bacteria are prokaryotic and
                            hence offer numerous structural and metabolic targets
                            that differ from those of the human host. Fungi, in
                            contrast, are eukaryotes, and consequently most agents
                            toxic to fungi are also toxic to the host.
                            Furthermore, because fungi generally grow slowly and
                            often in multicellular forms, they are more difficult
                            to quantify than bacteria..."

                            > My point is more that it's a cosmetic
                            problem....[advertising suggests that]
                            > *it needs to be treated with an expensive and
                            > potentially harmful* drug. It doesn't. But unless
                            > you do your homework, you'd agree with that worried
                            > lady in the ad who mutters "Infection...?"

                            Damon's query and the subsequent responses re: dremels
                            noted... <grin>

                            I personally use an exacto knife to pare down the
                            offending toenail; I keep threatening to try my
                            dogshowing friend's 'Happy Jack' treatment for dognail
                            fungus...I'll let you know if I do, and the outcome!

                            It's not that I'm against treating nail fungi; I just
                            want folks to be properly aware of what the
                            _potential_ consequences are. Lamisil is much less
                            toxic than frex Amphotericin B, which we nicknamed
                            'amphoterrible' b/c of its many nasty side effects (of
                            course, fungal infection of the brain is just a tad
                            more serious than that of the toenail, and you can't
                            do without a brain, unlike pretty feet...).

                            And drugs like Accutane, a definite teratogen, are
                            justified in being used only for truly dreadful cases
                            of acne [I do not consider _severe_ acne merely
                            cosmetic, but actually disfiguring, and so increased
                            risk, if properly explained, can be acceptable].

                            Debbi
                            Off To Another Lesson Maru UU



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                          • Ronn!Blankenship
                            ... I dunno. Many models and actresses seem to have made just that choice . . . Though Admittedly With Most Of Them It Is Not The Appearance Of Their *Feet*
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 3, 2005
                              At Monday 04:38 PM 1/3/2005, Deborah Harrell wrote:
                              >Lamisil is much less
                              >toxic than frex Amphotericin B, which we nicknamed
                              >'amphoterrible' b/c of its many nasty side effects (of
                              >course, fungal infection of the brain is just a tad
                              >more serious than that of the toenail, and you can't
                              >do without a brain, unlike pretty feet...).



                              I dunno. Many models and actresses seem to have made just that choice . . .


                              Though Admittedly With Most Of Them It Is Not The Appearance Of Their
                              *Feet* Which Is Bankable Maru


                              -- Ronn! :)


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                            • Warren Ockrassa
                              ... You might want to forward this to president@whitehouse.gov. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 4, 2005
                                On Jan 3, 2005, at 3:38 PM, Deborah Harrell wrote:

                                > of
                                > course, fungal infection of the brain is just a tad
                                > more serious than that of the toenail, and you can't
                                > do without a brain, unlike pretty feet...

                                You might want to forward this to president@....


                                --
                                Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books
                                http://books.nightwares.com/
                                Current work in progress "The Seven-Year Mirror"
                                http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf

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