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RE: Strike Zone

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  • Horn, John
    ... especially ... their ... People try to finesse the system we have NOW. Of course players will try to finesse it. That s the nature of sports. That s
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 27, 2004
      > Behalf Of Erik Reuter
      >
      > I think you underestimate the difficulty of the problem,
      especially
      > when people have an incentive to try to "finesse" the system to
      their
      > advantage.

      People try to finesse the "system" we have NOW. Of course players
      will try to finesse it. That's the nature of sports. That's why we
      have rules.

      Actually, I don't have as much of a problem with one umpire having a
      different strike zone from another umpire. As long as he is
      consistent. But to vary based on who is batting or who is pitching
      is unacceptable. Maybe MLB could use the system Dan is describing
      to get the umpires to be more consistent if it can't actually be
      used in a game.

      - jmh
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    • Bemmzim@aol.com
      In a message dated 9/26/2004 10:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, brighto@zo.com writes: Hey, who needs dyslexics. I challenge Dan and Zim to a creative
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 27, 2004
        In a message dated 9/26/2004 10:28:14 PM Eastern Standard Time,
        brighto@... writes:

        Hey, who needs dyslexics. I challenge Dan and Zim to a creative spelling
        competition here and now. Zim's the odds on favorite though. 8^)




        eye bag ore pare done
        i;m verry goud speiler
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      • Bryon Daly
        ... As I see it, an umpire needs to judge both were the strike zone is for a player, and if the ball passed through it. Either or both of those judgements can
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 27, 2004
          On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:26:49 -0400, Erik Reuter <ereuter@...> wrote:
          > On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 04:19:33PM -0500, Horn, John wrote:
          >
          > >From what I have read here, it would only be more consistent to the
          > extent that the umpires can't tell the path of the ball. It seems there
          > is still a judgement call about the vertical position and height of the
          > strike zone. Now, if you also had a prior agreement on the vertical
          > position and height of the strike zone FOR EACH PLAYER among umpires,
          > then consistency would be better. But this could be done even without
          > the technology being discussed.
          >
          > I think I am not expressing my point very well. Briefly, it seems to me
          > the real problem isn't technology or lack of it, but rather agreement on
          > defining the strike zone for each player.

          As I see it, an umpire needs to judge both were the strike zone is for
          a player, and if the ball passed through it. Either or both of those
          judgements can be mistaken or biased by the ump's respect for the
          player or pitcher, etc.

          With the machine, the question of bias is removed, as is the ball's
          position, leaving only the strike zone question.

          My guess is the system uses the side cameras to analyze the batter's
          stance and pick out notable points like overall height, the elbow and
          shoulder heights and knee bend height. From these, it could calculate
          what the strike zone should be to some reasonable approximation.
          Given that (despite the rulebook) real umpires' strike zones are quite
          subjective, I don't think that exact precision or an exact match to
          some umpire's preference is required. Of course, since the machine is
          being used to grade umpire's calls, that would have the effect of
          encouraging umps to match the machine's strike zone. Whether that's
          good or bad depends on how good a job it does and how consistent the
          machine is in picking strike zones. Both of those criteria should be
          testable, though, by analyzing the film footage and the machine's
          choices.
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        • Erik Reuter
          ... If so, then there would be some major gaming of the system. It is much easier to fool a machine than a human. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 28, 2004
            On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 09:38:42PM -0400, Bryon Daly wrote:

            > My guess is the system uses the side cameras to analyze the batter's
            > stance and pick out notable points like overall height, the elbow and
            > shoulder heights and knee bend height. From these, it could calculate
            > what the strike zone should be to some reasonable approximation.

            If so, then there would be some major gaming of the system. It is much
            easier to fool a machine than a human.



            --
            Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/
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          • Doug Pensinger
            On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:06:52 -0400, Erik Reuter ... It would be simple to have a player database with each player s exact dimensions.
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 28, 2004
              On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:06:52 -0400, Erik Reuter <ereuter@...>
              wrote:

              > On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 09:38:42PM -0400, Bryon Daly wrote:
              >
              >> My guess is the system uses the side cameras to analyze the batter's
              >> stance and pick out notable points like overall height, the elbow and
              >> shoulder heights and knee bend height. From these, it could calculate
              >> what the strike zone should be to some reasonable approximation.
              >
              > If so, then there would be some major gaming of the system. It is much
              > easier to fool a machine than a human.

              It would be simple to have a player database with each player's exact
              dimensions. An operator could program the system for the player and the
              Ump could verify that the correct player was entered via a small remote
              display.

              Also, I think a system like this would have to be tested and proven in the
              minors and only brought up to the big leagues when proven reliable.

              I don't think you should get rid of the home plate ump as he's doing a
              good deal more than calling balls and strikes. The system should give him
              an immediate audio or visual cue.


              --
              Doug
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            • Robert Seeberger
              ... batter s ... exact ... a ... I ve hesitated to jump into this one, but....... Considering the sophistication of facial recognition systems, could this tech
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 28, 2004
                Doug Pensinger wrote:
                > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 06:06:52 -0400, Erik Reuter
                > <ereuter@...> wrote:
                >
                >> On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 09:38:42PM -0400, Bryon Daly wrote:
                >>
                >>> My guess is the system uses the side cameras to analyze the
                batter's
                >>> stance and pick out notable points like overall height, the elbow
                >>> and shoulder heights and knee bend height. From these, it could
                >>> calculate what the strike zone should be to some reasonable
                >>> approximation.
                >>
                >> If so, then there would be some major gaming of the system. It is
                >> much easier to fool a machine than a human.
                >
                > It would be simple to have a player database with each player's
                exact
                > dimensions. An operator could program the system for the player and
                > the Ump could verify that the correct player was entered via a small
                > remote display.
                >
                > Also, I think a system like this would have to be tested and proven
                > in the minors and only brought up to the big leagues when proven
                > reliable.
                >
                > I don't think you should get rid of the home plate ump as he's doing
                a
                > good deal more than calling balls and strikes. The system should
                > give him an immediate audio or visual cue.

                I've hesitated to jump into this one, but.......
                Considering the sophistication of facial recognition systems, could
                this tech not be modified to reliably recognize the strike zone of
                individual players?

                How about RFID tags in the knees and shoulders of uniforms? And on the
                ball?



                xponent
                Jigger It Maru
                rob


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              • Erik Reuter
                ... It would be simple, IF everyone agreed on the player s dimensions. As I said, the problem is NOT technology, it is agreement on the strike zone vertical
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 29, 2004
                  On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 07:01:59PM -0700, Doug Pensinger wrote:

                  > It would be simple to have a player database with each player's exact
                  > dimensions.

                  It would be simple, IF everyone agreed on the player's dimensions. As
                  I said, the problem is NOT technology, it is agreement on the strike
                  zone vertical size and position. If you got everyone to agree on each
                  player's dimensions, then you are in great shape, with or without the
                  technology.


                  --
                  Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/
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                • Doug Pensinger
                  ... The strike zone is from the knees to the chest. If you measure the distance between the crook of a players knees and his arm pit, your probably pretty
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 1 6:37 PM
                    Erik wrote:

                    > On Tue, Sep 28, 2004 at 07:01:59PM -0700, Doug Pensinger wrote:
                    >
                    >> It would be simple to have a player database with each player's exact
                    >> dimensions.
                    >
                    > It would be simple, IF everyone agreed on the player's dimensions. As
                    > I said, the problem is NOT technology, it is agreement on the strike
                    > zone vertical size and position. If you got everyone to agree on each
                    > player's dimensions, then you are in great shape, with or without the
                    > technology.
                    >

                    The strike zone is from the knees to the chest. If you measure the
                    distance between the crook of a players knees and his arm pit, your
                    probably pretty close - you might have to subtract a percent of the total
                    distance from the top of the zone to get it right, but once you determine
                    the criteria it should be the same for all players. This would be to the
                    disadvantage of those that attempt to compress their zone by hunching down
                    (Ricky Henderson), but that's kind of a cheat anyway.

                    As an aside, are there any other professional _team_ sports that handicap
                    their participants the way baseball does its batters?

                    --
                    Doug
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