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Wikileaks

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  • Doug Pensinger
    There seems to be overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks release of confidential documents and I was wondering how people here (some of whom may have read
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 30, 2010
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      There seems to be overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks' release of
      confidential documents and I was wondering how people here (some of
      whom may have read Brin's Transparent Society) felt about it.

      I'm generally for transparency and haven't heard of anything yet that
      is beyond mildly embarrassing to the U. S. government. I do think
      where the safety of our troops is concerned confidentially is
      important, but that government secrets should have a relatively short
      shelf life in all cases.

      Doug

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    • Charlie Bell
      ... Judging by how they do it - letting the powers-that-be know quite a while in advance what they have and what they re planning to release, and giving time
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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        On 01/12/2010, at 3:51 PM, Doug Pensinger wrote:

        > There seems to be overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks' release of
        > confidential documents and I was wondering how people here (some of
        > whom may have read Brin's Transparent Society) felt about it.

        Judging by how they do it - letting the powers-that-be know quite a while in advance what they have and what they're planning to release, and giving time for operations to be moved/ended and some redactions to occur, I think it's a good thing that this material gets released.

        Also, it's not top secret - about 3 million US govt employees would have had access to most of this anyway, according to an article I was reading earlier.
        >
        > I'm generally for transparency and haven't heard of anything yet that
        > is beyond mildly embarrassing to the U. S. government. I do think
        > where the safety of our troops is concerned confidentially is
        > important, but that government secrets should have a relatively short
        > shelf life in all cases.

        Precisely.

        Situations like here in Victoria where the contracts for building the new railway station in Melbourne are sealed for FIFTY YEARS are ridiculous - they're anti-democratic and foster corruption.

        Charlie.
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      • Alberto Monteiro
        ... I think the worst source of embarassment is the use by .govs of security-weak softwares and OSes. What if this happened 70 years ago and Manhattan Project
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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          Doug Pensinger wrote:
          >
          > I'm generally for transparency and haven't heard of anything yet that
          > is beyond mildly embarrassing to the U. S. government. I do think
          > where the safety of our troops is concerned confidentially is
          > important, but that government secrets should have a relatively short
          > shelf life in all cases.
          >
          I think the worst source of embarassment is the use by .govs
          of security-weak softwares and OSes. What if this happened
          70 years ago and Manhattan Project was leaked to the nazis
          (or even the soviets)?

          Alberto Monteiro


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        • trent shipley
          The Manhattan Project was spied on by the Soviets. On Dec 1, 2010 4:18 AM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: ... I think the worst source of
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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            The Manhattan Project was spied on by the Soviets.

            On Dec 1, 2010 4:18 AM, "Alberto Monteiro" <albmont@...> wrote:


            Doug Pensinger wrote:
            >
            > I'm generally for transparency and haven't heard of anything yet that
            > ...

            I think the worst source of embarassment is the use by .govs
            of security-weak softwares and OSes. What if this happened
            70 years ago and Manhattan Project was leaked to the nazis
            (or even the soviets)?

            Alberto Monteiro



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          • Dan Minette
            What if this happened 70 years ago and Manhattan Project was leaked to the nazis (or even the soviets)? It was leaked to the Soviets. While Joe McCarthy was
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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              What if this happened
              70 years ago and Manhattan Project was leaked to the nazis
              (or even the soviets)?

              It was leaked to the Soviets. While Joe McCarthy was able to find 1000000%
              of the communist activists working for the Soviet Union in the United States
              (names kept in his locked briefcase), there were indeed sympathizers to the
              Soviet Union who got them some information. People were convicted of this.
              The latest I got was that the information given allowed them to skip the
              dangerous step of "tickling the dragon's tail" to determine experimentally
              what critical mass was.

              http://www.cfo.doe.gov/me70/manhattan/espionage.htm

              Dan M.


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            • Wayne Eddy
              It is interesting to hear that there is overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks in the US. From the comments I have read on newspaper articles about Wikileaks
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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                It is interesting to hear that there is overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks in the US.

                From the comments I have read on newspaper articles about Wikileaks here in Australia, I would think a majority of people here (maybe about 75%) are supportive.

                Personally, I think there is good and bad in what Julian Assange and his team are doing, but that the good definitely outweighs the bad.

                Regards,

                Wayne Eddy. 

                On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Doug Pensinger <brighto@...> wrote:
                There seems to be overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks' release of
                confidential documents and I was wondering how people here (some of
                whom may have read Brin's Transparent Society) felt about it.

                I'm generally for transparency and haven't heard of anything yet that
                is beyond mildly embarrassing to the U. S. government.  I do think
                where the safety of our troops is concerned confidentially is
                important, but that government secrets should have a relatively short
                shelf life in all cases.

                Doug

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              • Damon Agretto
                I don t know; I think it still remains to be seen if the good outweighs the bad. While so far the damage to the US appears to be fairly light, I have to wonder
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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                  I don't know; I think it still remains to be seen if the good outweighs the bad. While so far the damage to the US appears to be fairly light, I have to wonder about the damage done to US allies and other countries across the globe. I'm sure the Yemeni president (who has been allegedly lying to his parliament) probably looks at this a bit different, and the dynamic of the Iranian nuclear weapons issue might change with the revelations that many of the Arab states are largely aligned with Israel on this. Also, I have to wonder -- given current events -- how China's revelation to North Korea might pan out. While I'm optimistic and hope that goes for the best (and I think it likely will), I can also see it going for the worse too.
                   
                  Also there might be other revelations that come about that have yet to be revealed. Not to mention potential trust issues US allies might have because we're not able to safeguard their dirty laundry sufficiently...
                   
                  Damon.

                  On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Wayne Eddy <darkenfair@...> wrote:
                  It is interesting to hear that there is overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks in the US.

                  From the comments I have read on newspaper articles about Wikileaks here in Australia, I would think a majority of people here (maybe about 75%) are supportive.

                  Personally, I think there is good and bad in what Julian Assange and his team are doing, but that the good definitely outweighs the bad.

                  Regards,

                  Wayne Eddy. 


                  On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Doug Pensinger <brighto@...> wrote:
                  There seems to be overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks' release of
                  confidential documents and I was wondering how people here (some of
                  whom may have read Brin's Transparent Society) felt about it.

                  I'm generally for transparency and haven't heard of anything yet that
                  is beyond mildly embarrassing to the U. S. government.  I do think
                  where the safety of our troops is concerned confidentially is
                  important, but that government secrets should have a relatively short
                  shelf life in all cases.

                  Doug

                  _______________________________________________
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                • Dan Minette
                  ... Most of the critiques I read that see the leaks as harmful emphasize the fact that statements made to the US by various people in confidence are now out in
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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                    >I'm generally for transparency and haven't heard of anything yet that
                    >is beyond mildly embarrassing to the U. S. government. I do think
                    >where the safety of our troops is concerned confidentially is
                    >important, but that government secrets should have a relatively short
                    >shelf life in all cases.

                    Most of the critiques I read that see the leaks as harmful emphasize the
                    fact that statements made to the US by various people in confidence are now
                    out in the open. An example of this is the King of Saudi Arabia's repeated
                    worry about an Iranian nuclear weapon. This included his suggestion that
                    the US bomb their facilities and his promise to provide China with oil in
                    case Iran cuts off their oil supply after they failed to veto sanctions.

                    Or the embarrassment for the leader of Yeman who protested the US bombing of
                    AQ positions, while quietly telling the US he had to be "shocked shocked to
                    find gambling at Rick's Café Americana" but that was just a necessary
                    political fig leaf.

                    So, the real damage is that it is now reasonable to conclude that it is
                    impossible for the US to keep anything told it in confidence.

                    One very interesting fact is that they didn't come up with smoking guns
                    about secret illegal activities that Cheney authorized. I actually expected
                    to see something like that...if it's there, I haven't seen where it was
                    reported.

                    Dan M.


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                  • trent shipley
                    How many secrets does Australia have that are worth leaking. Does a significant fraction of the World s population believe it is The Great Satan? ...
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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                      How many secrets does Australia have that are worth leaking.  Does a significant fraction of the World's population believe it is The Great Satan?

                      On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 1:12 PM, Wayne Eddy <darkenfair@...> wrote:
                      It is interesting to hear that there is overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks in the US.

                      From the comments I have read on newspaper articles about Wikileaks here in Australia, I would think a majority of people here (maybe about 75%) are supportive.

                      Personally, I think there is good and bad in what Julian Assange and his team are doing, but that the good definitely outweighs the bad.

                      Regards,

                      Wayne Eddy. 


                      On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Doug Pensinger <brighto@...> wrote:
                      There seems to be overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks' release of
                      confidential documents and I was wondering how people here (some of
                      whom may have read Brin's Transparent Society) felt about it.

                      I'm generally for transparency and haven't heard of anything yet that
                      is beyond mildly embarrassing to the U. S. government.  I do think
                      where the safety of our troops is concerned confidentially is
                      important, but that government secrets should have a relatively short
                      shelf life in all cases.

                      Doug

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                    • Matt Grimaldi
                      Those are just the loudest voices at the moment. I m wondering, where are the juicy bits that would justify someone to turn whistleblower? Where are the docs
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 1, 2010
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                        Those are just the loudest voices at the moment.  I'm wondering, where are the juicy bits that would justify someone to turn whistleblower?  Where are the docs to prove that Soylent Green is really people?  It would be a shame to waste such an opportunity on something merely embarrassing.

                        -- Matt





                        From: Wayne Eddy <darkenfair@...>
                        To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion <brin-l@...>
                        Sent: Wed, December 1, 2010 12:12:23 PM
                        Subject: Re: Wikileaks

                        It is interesting to hear that there is overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks in the US.

                        From the comments I have read on newspaper articles about Wikileaks here in Australia, I would think a majority of people here (maybe about 75%) are supportive.

                        Personally, I think there is good and bad in what Julian Assange and his team are doing, but that the good definitely outweighs the bad.

                        Regards,

                        Wayne Eddy. 

                        On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Doug Pensinger <brighto@...> wrote:
                        There seems to be overwhelming sentiment against Wikileaks' release of
                        confidential documents and I was wondering how people here (some of
                        whom may have read Brin's Transparent Society) felt about it.

                        I'm generally for transparency and haven't heard of anything yet that
                        is beyond mildly embarrassing to the U. S. government.  I do think
                        where the safety of our troops is concerned confidentially is
                        important, but that government secrets should have a relatively short
                        shelf life in all cases.

                        Doug

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                      • Nick Arnett
                        ... Reminds me of the story of the lady who was applying for a visa to enter Australia. When the clerk asked her if she had a criminal record, she replied, I
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 5, 2010
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                          On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 3:29 PM, trent shipley <trent.shipley@...> wrote:
                          How many secrets does Australia have that are worth leaking.  Does a significant fraction of the World's population believe it is The Great Satan?

                          Reminds me of the story of the lady who was applying for a visa to enter Australia.  When the clerk asked her if she had a criminal record, she replied, "I had no idea one was still required."

                          Have I used that joke here before?  Well, if so, enjoy it again.

                          Nick
                        • Charlie Bell
                          ... Billy Connolly originally, I think. I think? Olllld anyway. Still funny though. Charlie _______________________________________________
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 6, 2010
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                            On 06/12/2010, at 8:46 AM, Nick Arnett wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > On Wed, Dec 1, 2010 at 3:29 PM, trent shipley <trent.shipley@...> wrote:
                            > How many secrets does Australia have that are worth leaking. Does a significant fraction of the World's population believe it is The Great Satan?
                            >
                            > Reminds me of the story of the lady who was applying for a visa to enter Australia. When the clerk asked her if she had a criminal record, she replied, "I had no idea one was still required."
                            >
                            > Have I used that joke here before? Well, if so, enjoy it again.

                            Billy Connolly originally, I think. I think? Olllld anyway. Still funny though.

                            Charlie
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                          • Charlie Bell
                            ... They released the list of blacklisted domains that was itself secret... stupid policy. Charlie. _______________________________________________
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 6, 2010
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                              On 02/12/2010, at 10:29 AM, trent shipley wrote:

                              > How many secrets does Australia have that are worth leaking. Does a significant fraction of the World's population believe it is The Great Satan?

                              They released the list of blacklisted domains that was itself secret... stupid policy.

                              Charlie.
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                            • Alberto Monteiro
                              ... They don t require a criminal record, but they also ban anyone whose family includes people with Down Syndrome:
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 6, 2010
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                                Nick Arnett wrote:
                                >
                                >> How many secrets does Australia have that are worth leaking.
                                >> Does a significant fraction of the World's population believe
                                >> it is The Great Satan?
                                >
                                > Reminds me of the story of the lady who was applying for a visa
                                > to enter Australia.  When the clerk asked her if she had a
                                > criminal record, she replied, "I had no idea one was still required."
                                >
                                > Have I used that joke here before?  Well, if so, enjoy it again.
                                >
                                They don't require a criminal record, but they also ban anyone
                                whose family includes people with Down Syndrome:

                                http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/world/asia/27australia.html

                                Alberto Monteiro


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                              • Charlie Bell
                                ... Ban ? No. Applications are much more likely to be rejected than those of applicants with no medical conditions, and I think that it s arguable that in
                                Message 15 of 15 , Dec 6, 2010
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                                  On 06/12/2010, at 10:39 PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

                                  > Nick Arnett wrote:
                                  >>
                                  >>> How many secrets does Australia have that are worth leaking.
                                  >>> Does a significant fraction of the World's population believe
                                  >>> it is The Great Satan?
                                  >>
                                  >> Reminds me of the story of the lady who was applying for a visa
                                  >> to enter Australia. When the clerk asked her if she had a
                                  >> criminal record, she replied, "I had no idea one was still required."
                                  >>
                                  >> Have I used that joke here before? Well, if so, enjoy it again.
                                  >>
                                  > They don't require a criminal record, but they also ban anyone
                                  > whose family includes people with Down Syndrome:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/26/world/asia/27australia.html

                                  "Ban"? No. Applications are much more likely to be rejected than those of applicants with no medical conditions, and I think that it's arguable that in many cases the rejections are arbitrary, wrong and unjustifiable. But there's no blanket ban on people with a disability.

                                  Canada has very similar guidelines to Australia, with the addition of an applicant being able to buy a bond that indemnifies against future medical expenses. New Zealand has quotas. I think there have to be SOME guidelines on immigration. Question is whether they're applied fairly and humanely, and in the case you cite they seemed to not be, especially as the ministerial appeal was successful. And the whole process is reviewed periodically - http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/mig/disability/report.htm is the most recent report on this issue.

                                  Charlie
                                  GCU Application Being Considered At The Moment




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