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Re: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous

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  • KZK
    ... So, we should just ignore it when Obama is worse, in this case on spying on Americans, than Bush was, just because he has a (D) after his name? We should
    Message 1 of 7 , Aug 23, 2010
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      On 8/21/2010 10:14 PM, Chris Frandsen wrote:
      > This is the same anti government pitch being pushed right now to hamstring this administration.

      So, we should just ignore it when Obama is worse, in this case on spying
      on Americans, than Bush was, just because he has a (D) after his name?

      We should just ignore it when Obama does the opposite of what he
      campaigned on, just because he has a (D) after his name?

      We should Shut our mouths over things that when Bush did them, were
      completely outrageous, just because he has a (D) after his name?

      So we should just turn of four brains and accept everything he does as
      good, and just and right, and beyond criticism, just because he has a
      (D) after his name?

      >

      > Chris
      >
      > On Aug 21, 2010, at 21:51, David Brin<dbrin@...> wrote:
      >
      >> Whine, moan bitch complain without any sensible suggestions... yep, that's the Cato way.
      >>
      >> Above all, aim all suspicion-of-authority at some vague "government" and ignore all other forces.
      >>
      >> From: KZK<evil.kezik@...>
      >> To: brin-l@...
      >> Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 6:42:35 PM
      >> Subject: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous
      >>
      >> http://www.cato-unbound.org/2010/08/09/glenn-greenwald/the-digital-surveillance-state-vast-secret-and-dangerous/
      >>

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    • David Brin
      You got me. I skimmed. the modern sin. If you had any idea how many people I must respond to. ________________________________ From: KZK
      Message 2 of 7 , Aug 23, 2010
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        You got me.  I skimmed.  the modern sin.  If you had any idea how many people I must respond to.


        From: KZK <evil.kezik@...>
        To: brin-l@...
        Sent: Mon, August 23, 2010 12:24:31 AM
        Subject: Re: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous

        On 8/21/2010 10:14 PM, Chris Frandsen wrote:
        > This is the same anti government pitch being pushed right now to hamstring this administration.

        So, we should just ignore it when Obama is worse, in this case on spying
        on Americans, than Bush was, just because he has a (D) after his name?

        We should just ignore it when Obama does the opposite of what he
        campaigned on, just because he has a (D) after his name?

        We should Shut our mouths over things that when Bush did them, were
        completely outrageous, just because he has a (D) after his name?

        So we should just turn of four brains and accept everything he does as
        good, and just and right, and beyond criticism, just because he has a
        (D) after his name?

        >

        > Chris
        >
        > On Aug 21, 2010, at 21:51, David Brin<dbrin@...>  wrote:
        >
        >> Whine, moan bitch complain without any sensible suggestions... yep, that's the Cato way.
        >>
        >> Above all, aim all suspicion-of-authority at some vague "government" and ignore all other forces.
        >>
        >> From: KZK<evil.kezik@...>
        >> To: brin-l@...
        >> Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 6:42:35 PM
        >> Subject: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous
        >>
        >> http://www.cato-unbound.org/2010/08/09/glenn-greenwald/the-digital-surveillance-state-vast-secret-and-dangerous/
        >>

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      • Bruce Bostwick
        ... I have to admit, one reason I voted for Obama (and I did vote for him, both in the primaries and in the general election) was my belief that at the very
        Message 3 of 7 , Aug 23, 2010
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          On Aug 23, 2010, at 2:24 AM, KZK wrote:

          >> On Aug 21, 2010, at 21:51, David Brin<dbrin@...> wrote:
          >>
          >>> Whine, moan bitch complain without any sensible suggestions...
          >>> yep, that's the Cato way.
          >>>
          >>> Above all, aim all suspicion-of-authority at some vague
          >>> "government" and ignore all other forces.
          >>>
          >>> From: KZK<evil.kezik@...>
          >>> To: brin-l@...
          >>> Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 6:42:35 PM
          >>> Subject: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and
          >>> Dangerous
          >>>
          >>> http://www.cato-unbound.org/2010/08/09/glenn-greenwald/the-digital-surveillance-state-vast-secret-and-dangerous/
          >>
          > On 8/21/2010 10:14 PM, Chris Frandsen wrote:
          >> This is the same anti government pitch being pushed right now to
          >> hamstring this administration.
          >
          > So, we should just ignore it when Obama is worse, in this case on
          > spying on Americans, than Bush was, just because he has a (D) after
          > his name?
          >
          > We should just ignore it when Obama does the opposite of what he
          > campaigned on, just because he has a (D) after his name?
          >
          > We should Shut our mouths over things that when Bush did them, were
          > completely outrageous, just because he has a (D) after his name?
          >
          > So we should just turn of four brains and accept everything he does
          > as good, and just and right, and beyond criticism, just because he
          > has a (D) after his name?

          I have to admit, one reason I voted for Obama (and I did vote for him,
          both in the primaries and in the general election) was my belief that
          at the very least, he would partially if not completely dismantle the
          invasive "security" apparatus that Bush/Cheney were so eager to put
          into place the day after 9/11/01, and if nothing else, call for the
          repeal of at least portions of the USA PATRIOT Act and the illegal (by
          the actual FISA statute, if I remember correctly) "warrantless
          wiretapping" practices used by the domestic security/intel agencies
          and restore some accountability to government surveillance of citizens.

          The fact that he did nothing of the sort, and in fact took steps to
          further entrench that policy of surveillance and extrajudicial "anti-
          terrorism" measures that ultimately completely bypass due process, by
          itself makes me regret ever supporting him. It's a largely
          inexplicable discrepancy between the policy promises he campaigned on
          and the actual policies he put in place once in office.

          As far as I know, Cheney's shadow Situation Room, PEOC, and secure
          communications facilities are still in place at One Observatory
          Circle, as I've heard no mention anywhere of those being
          decommissioned or removed. Granted, Joe Biden doesn't seem to be the
          type of VP who would take advantage of having those facilities there,
          but that hinges on a gut-level read of the man that may be wildly if
          not totally inaccurate.

          We still only have simple good-faith assertions by the various three
          letter agencies involved that they will not use the largely
          unaccountable surveillance powers they have for reprisals against
          citizens' criticism of the apparatus itself or of Congress' or
          presidential administrations' use or misuse of it. So far I haven't
          seen any evidence of its misuse, but a great deal of such misuse could
          be going out without any news of it ever surfacing, the way it's
          structured from what's been disclosed. And given that we're talking
          about a system that can data-mine the entire US telecommunications
          infrastructure in real time, under software control, on fairly
          abstract semantic levels, the potential for virtually untraceable
          abuse is significant indeed. Which is what disappoints and concerns
          me about what *hasn't* happened to correct this during this
          administration.

          (And the irony is that the same neoconservatives who couldn't be
          enthusiastic enough about the expansion of government power after
          9/11, while Bush II was in office, are suddenly completely against it
          now that Obama is in office. Seems they forgot the rule that you
          should never give a government powers you wouldn't want your worst
          nightmare of a government to have..)

          "Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual
          ignorance." -- H. L. Mencken


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