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[Fwd: Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/]

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  • Trent Shipley
    ... From: - Sun Dec 27 19:10:30 2009 X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00800000 X-Mozilla-Keys: Message-ID: Date: Sun,
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 27, 2009
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      -------- Original Message --------
      From: - Sun Dec 27 19:10:30 2009
      X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
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      X-Mozilla-Keys:
      Message-ID: <4B38138E.1030807@...>
      Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:10:22 -0700
      From: Trent Shipley <tshipley@...>
      User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817)
      MIME-Version: 1.0
      To: sendai <sendai@...>
      Subject: Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
      References:
      <1114620827-1261963340-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-666953140-@...>
      <43B7D2E7-9BE1-4E9E-A5F5-1E1152FE2DA1@...>
      In-Reply-To: <43B7D2E7-9BE1-4E9E-A5F5-1E1152FE2DA1@...>
      X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7
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      A quick Google doesn't turn up any strong scifi literary wikis. Given
      the structure of a well designed wiki, David Brin's Uplift Universe
      should be a viable category effectively acting as a sub-wiki. In short,
      you can have both.



      sendai wrote:

      > On 28/12/2009, at 11:23 AM, tshipley@... wrote:
      >
      >> Let's be more ambitious.
      >>
      > I've gone the other way and reduced the scope to just Uplift.
      >
      > It's currently hosted on Wikia, and I've only just started dumping some of the lists (along with the Alvin stub) from Wikipedia to it, so it's not an issue if Nick wishes to host it on the same server as the list.
      >
      > http://uplift.wikia.com/wiki/Uplift_Wiki
      >
      >
      >> A science fiction and fantasy literary wiki! (And just when I needed a new project too.)
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >> ------Original Message------
      >> From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
      >> To: Brin-L
      >> ReplyTo: Brin-L
      >> Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
      >> Sent: Dec 27, 2009 4:56 PM
      >>
      >> Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what
      >> I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(
      >>
      >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
      >>
      >> Maybe it's time to setup a Brin wiki
      >>
      >> Alberto Monteiro
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >




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    • Dave Land
      I found most of what I wanted to know about Anathem on the Anathem Wiki at wikia.com. Maybe that s a good place for us? Dave ...
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 27, 2009
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        I found most of what I wanted to know about Anathem on the Anathem
        Wiki at wikia.com.

        Maybe that's a good place for us?

        Dave

        On Dec 27, 2009, at 6:20 PM, Trent Shipley wrote:

        >
        >
        > -------- Original Message --------
        > From: - Sun Dec 27 19:10:30 2009
        > X-Mozilla-Status: 0001
        > X-Mozilla-Status2: 00800000
        > X-Mozilla-Keys:
        > Message-ID: <4B38138E.1030807@...>
        > Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2009 19:10:22 -0700
        > From: Trent Shipley <tshipley@...>
        > User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.23 (X11/20090817)
        > MIME-Version: 1.0
        > To: sendai <sendai@...>
        > Subject: Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
        > References:
        > <1114620827-1261963340-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-666953140-@...
        > >
        > <43B7D2E7-9BE1-4E9E-A5F5-1E1152FE2DA1@...>
        > In-Reply-To: <43B7D2E7-9BE1-4E9E-A5F5-1E1152FE2DA1@...>
        > X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7
        > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
        > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
        >
        >
        >
        > A quick Google doesn't turn up any strong scifi literary wikis. Given
        > the structure of a well designed wiki, David Brin's Uplift Universe
        > should be a viable category effectively acting as a sub-wiki. In
        > short,
        > you can have both.
        >
        >
        >
        > sendai wrote:
        >
        >> On 28/12/2009, at 11:23 AM, tshipley@... wrote:
        >>
        >>> Let's be more ambitious.
        >>>
        >> I've gone the other way and reduced the scope to just Uplift.
        >>
        >> It's currently hosted on Wikia, and I've only just started dumping
        >> some of the lists (along with the Alvin stub) from Wikipedia to it,
        >> so it's not an issue if Nick wishes to host it on the same server
        >> as the list.
        >>
        >> http://uplift.wikia.com/wiki/Uplift_Wiki
        >>
        >>
        >>> A science fiction and fantasy literary wiki! (And just when I
        >>> needed a new project too.)
        >>>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>> ------Original Message------
        >>> From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
        >>> To: Brin-L
        >>> ReplyTo: Brin-L
        >>> Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again :-/
        >>> Sent: Dec 27, 2009 4:56 PM
        >>>
        >>> Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what
        >>> I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(
        >>>
        >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
        >>>
        >>> Maybe it's time to setup a Brin wiki
        >>>
        >>> Alberto Monteiro
        >>>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > _______________________________________________
        > http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
        >


        _______________________________________________
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      • David Hobby
        Trent Shipley wrote: ... ... Alberto-- Hi. I think you can make a good case to keep it, since it involves a major character in a series of popular science
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 27, 2009
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          Trent Shipley wrote:
          ...
          > A quick Google doesn't turn up any strong scifi literary wikis. Given
          > the structure of a well designed wiki, David Brin's Uplift Universe
          > should be a viable category effectively acting as a sub-wiki. In short,
          > you can have both.
          ...
          >>> From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro
          ...
          >>> Article Alvin Hph-wayuo was proposed for elimination. From what
          >>> I know about such things, it will be eliminated :-(
          >>>
          >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
          ...

          Alberto--

          Hi. I think you can make a good case to keep it,
          since it involves a major character in a series
          of popular science fiction novels.

          If we want to keep
          it, the thing to do would be to tie it in better
          with other articles. The Hoon article at
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoon_(fiction)
          could say something like "The most detailed
          references to the Hoon appear in the Jijo
          series. The major Hoon character in those
          books is Alvin Hph-wayuo, who..."

          (This should be brief, but lets you link to the
          Alvin page.)

          The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's
          page. But wait, the entry at
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore
          is just a stub...

          O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually
          be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that
          the related pages aren't detailed enough yet. I
          can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift
          Universe in the meantime, and copying its content
          onto Wikipedia as time passes.

          ---David


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        • Alberto Monteiro
          ... No, not my language, not my place to battle. I ve tried to keep the Portuguese language trolls away from deleting relevant material - I can say I have been
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 28, 2009
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            David Hobby wrote:
            >
            >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
            >
            > Alberto--
            >
            > Hi. I think you can make a good case to keep it,
            > since it involves a major character in a series
            > of popular science fiction novels.
            >
            No, not my language, not my place to battle. I've tried
            to keep the Portuguese language trolls away from deleting
            relevant material - I can say I have been half-successful.

            > The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's
            > page. But wait, the entry at
            > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore
            > is just a stub...
            >
            Yes, it's a stub, and fortunately so. Another stupid decision
            made in the English wikipedia was that spoilers are _not_
            marked as such. Just take a look a the article about
            "The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" movie...
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
            ... or about the Titanic (the nazi rip-off by Cameron)...
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1997_film)
            ... and see how carelessly it gives the end of both movies without
            respect for those who don't know the stories!

            > O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually
            > be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that
            > the related pages aren't detailed enough yet. I
            > can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift
            > Universe in the meantime, and copying its content
            > onto Wikipedia as time passes.
            >
            I think the best would be to do the opposite: create an Uplift wiki,
            copy _from_ Wikipedia, and remove from Wikipedia.

            Alberto Monteiro


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          • David Hobby
            ... Alberto-- Wow, I guess it is my place to battle. I ve been going back and forth with the troll , at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 28, 2009
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              Alberto Monteiro wrote:
              > David Hobby wrote:
              >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
              >> Alberto--
              >>
              >> Hi. I think you can make a good case to keep it,
              >> since it involves a major character in a series
              >> of popular science fiction novels.
              >>
              > No, not my language, not my place to battle. I've tried
              > to keep the Portuguese language trolls away from deleting
              > relevant material - I can say I have been half-successful.

              Alberto--

              Wow, I guess it is my place to battle. I've been going
              back and forth with the "troll", at:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo

              Some of this is because I don't really understand his
              criteria, or what the problem is with having an entry.

              >> The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's
              >> page. But wait, the entry at
              >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore
              >> is just a stub...
              >>
              > Yes, it's a stub, and fortunately so. Another stupid decision
              > made in the English wikipedia was that spoilers are _not_
              > marked as such. Just take a look a the article about
              > "The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" movie...
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
              > ... or about the Titanic (the nazi rip-off by Cameron)...
              > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1997_film)
              > ... and see how carelessly it gives the end of both movies without
              > respect for those who don't know the stories!

              Aren't they usually marked as plot synopses, or
              something? But you're right, I bet a lot of people
              don't care about avoiding spoilers.

              >> O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually
              >> be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that
              >> the related pages aren't detailed enough yet. I
              >> can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift
              >> Universe in the meantime, and copying its content
              >> onto Wikipedia as time passes.
              >>
              > I think the best would be to do the opposite: create an Uplift wiki,
              > copy _from_ Wikipedia, and remove from Wikipedia.

              And all the Wikipedia articles would have would be a
              link to the extra material? That seems fair, too.

              ---David

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            • Trent Shipley
              ... important enough to be in the English Wikipedia. Recently, the editors, powers that be, or what have you have taken a much more active interest in being a
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 28, 2009
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                David Hobby wrote:

                > Alberto Monteiro wrote:
                >> David Hobby wrote:
                >>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Hph-wayuo
                >>> Alberto--
                >>>
                >>> Hi. I think you can make a good case to keep it,
                >>> since it involves a major character in a series
                >>> of popular science fiction novels.
                >>>
                >> No, not my language, not my place to battle. I've tried
                >> to keep the Portuguese language trolls away from deleting
                >> relevant material - I can say I have been half-successful.
                >
                > Alberto--
                >
                > Wow, I guess it is my place to battle. I've been going
                > back and forth with the "troll", at:
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo
                >
                > Some of this is because I don't really understand his
                > criteria, or what the problem is with having an entry.
                >
                >>> The pages for the books should also link to Alvin's
                >>> page. But wait, the entry at
                >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinity%27s_Shore
                >>> is just a stub...
                >>>
                >> Yes, it's a stub, and fortunately so. Another stupid decision
                >> made in the English wikipedia was that spoilers are _not_
                >> marked as such. Just take a look a the article about
                >> "The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" movie...
                >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
                >> ... or about the Titanic (the nazi rip-off by Cameron)...
                >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1997_film)
                >> ... and see how carelessly it gives the end of both movies without
                >> respect for those who don't know the stories!
                >
                > Aren't they usually marked as plot synopses, or
                > something? But you're right, I bet a lot of people
                > don't care about avoiding spoilers.
                >
                >>> O.K., so maybe the problem is that a case can eventually
                >>> be made for Wikipedia to keep the page, but that
                >>> the related pages aren't detailed enough yet. I
                >>> can see developing a Wiki devoted to the Uplift
                >>> Universe in the meantime, and copying its content
                >>> onto Wikipedia as time passes.
                >>>
                >> I think the best would be to do the opposite: create an Uplift wiki,
                >> copy _from_ Wikipedia, and remove from Wikipedia.
                >
                > And all the Wikipedia articles would have would be a
                > link to the extra material? That seems fair, too.
                >
                > ---David
                >
                > _______________________________________________
                > http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
                >From what you've said, he's asking you to prove the Alvin article is
                important enough to be in the English Wikipedia. Recently, the editors,
                powers that be, or what have you have taken a much more active interest
                in being a "serious" encyclopedia. That means, for example, if I
                created an article on Trent Shipley, it would be removed since I don't
                merit mention in an encyclopedia.

                David Brin is an important science fiction author so he merits mention
                in Wikipedia.
                The Jijo trilogy merits mention.
                Each book in the trilogy merits an article.
                However, each book is based on an ensemble cast.
                Alvin is an ensemble character in trilogy by an author of moderate
                importance in a work of moderate importance.
                Thus, Alvin is too trivial to be in Wikipedia.

                If he were a Shakespeare character, no matter how minor, he would be in
                Wikipedia, because Shakespeare is a very important author.
                If he were a minor Naruto character he might rate an article because
                Naruto is very popular.
                But as it is, Alvin doesn't meet the criteria for important enough.


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              • Charlie Bell
                ... Maybe it should be merged into a List of Characters in the Second Uplift Trilogy page, however. I get the notability issue - Brin is notable, his books
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 28, 2009
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                  On 29/12/2009, at 3:44 AM, David Hobby wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Alberto--
                  >
                  > Wow, I guess it is my place to battle. I've been going
                  > back and forth with the "troll", at:
                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo
                  >
                  > Some of this is because I don't really understand his
                  > criteria, or what the problem is with having an entry.

                  Maybe it should be merged into a "List of Characters in the Second Uplift Trilogy" page, however.

                  I get the notability issue - Brin is notable, his books are, but all the characters getting an individual entry, or even many of them?

                  Charlie.
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                • Max Battcher
                  ... English Wikipedia does provide standard spoiler warning templates, but unlike some of the other (*cough*less useful*cough*) templates, like the lack of
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 28, 2009
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                    On 12/28/2009 5:18, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
                    > Yes, it's a stub, and fortunately so. Another stupid decision
                    > made in the English wikipedia was that spoilers are _not_
                    > marked as such. Just take a look a the article about

                    English Wikipedia does provide standard spoiler warning templates, but
                    unlike some of the other (*cough*less useful*cough*) templates, like the
                    lack of citation and "just a stub" warnings, to my knowledge there
                    aren't Spoiler nazis in En.Wikipedia plugging them into every article in
                    existence.

                    > "The Jesus Chainsaw Massacre" movie...
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Passion_of_the_Christ
                    > ... or about the Titanic (the nazi rip-off by Cameron)...
                    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanic_(1997_film)
                    > ... and see how carelessly it gives the end of both movies without
                    > respect for those who don't know the stories!

                    To be fair, the statute of spoiler limitations has run out on both of
                    them, being semi-historical in nature. I also don't think the
                    intentionally fictional elements of Titanic are substantial enough to be
                    spoiled, but that's just my opinion.

                    --
                    --Max Battcher--
                    http://worldmaker.net

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                  • David Hobby
                    ... Charlie-- I agree, one has to draw the line some place. Though this guy does seem to be a stickler about notability. ...
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 28, 2009
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                      Charlie Bell wrote:
                      > On 29/12/2009, at 3:44 AM, David Hobby wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Alberto--
                      >>
                      >> Wow, I guess it is my place to battle. I've been going back and
                      >> forth with the "troll", at:
                      >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alvin_Hph-wayuo
                      >>
                      >> Some of this is because I don't really understand his criteria, or
                      >> what the problem is with having an entry.
                      >
                      > Maybe it should be merged into a "List of Characters in the Second
                      > Uplift Trilogy" page, however.
                      >
                      > I get the notability issue - Brin is notable, his books are, but all
                      > the characters getting an individual entry, or even many of them?

                      Charlie--

                      I agree, one has to draw the line some place.
                      Though this guy does seem to be a stickler about
                      notability.

                      ---David


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                    • Alberto Monteiro
                      ... This is not what the owner of that thing said. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_is_not_paper There is no reason why there shouldn t be a page for every
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                        Trent Shipley wrote:
                        >
                        > David Brin is an important science fiction author so he merits
                        > mention in Wikipedia. The Jijo trilogy merits mention. Each book in
                        > the trilogy merits an article. However, each book is based on an
                        > ensemble cast. Alvin is an ensemble character in trilogy by an
                        > author of moderate importance in a work of moderate importance. Thus,
                        > Alvin is too trivial to be in Wikipedia.
                        >
                        > If he were a Shakespeare character, no matter how minor, he would be
                        > in Wikipedia, because Shakespeare is a very important author. If he
                        > were a minor Naruto character he might rate an article because
                        > Naruto is very popular. But as it is, Alvin doesn't meet the
                        > criteria for important enough.
                        >
                        This is not what the owner of that thing said.

                        http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_is_not_paper

                        "There is no reason why there shouldn't be a page for every
                        Simpsons character, and even a table listing every episode,
                        all neatly cross-linked and introduced by a shorter central
                        page. Every episode name in the list could link to a separate
                        page for each of those episodes, with links to reviews and
                        trivia. Each of the 100+ poker games can have its own page
                        with rules, history, and strategy. Jimbo Wales has agreed:
                        Hard disks are cheap."

                        So, it's just trolls that want to remove fictional character pages;
                        after all, Dei Lucrii, Time Regained (film), Jia Xiaozhong,
                        Montesquieu-Guittaut, Märkische Schweiz (Amt), Homage for Satan,
                        and Pudian Road (Shanghai Metro) could be more important than Alvin?

                        Alberto Monteiro


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                      • Alberto Monteiro
                        It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker. I will save the articles
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                          It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
                          stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.

                          I will save the articles in txt files; when the Brin wiki is set up
                          I will recreate them. It's a pity that the history will be
                          lost - I created those two articles, but they have expanded beyond
                          what I wrote.

                          Alberto Monteiro


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                        • Alberto Monteiro
                          ... The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo. It must be a Brin-hater.
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                            > It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
                            > stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
                            >
                            The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi,
                            Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.

                            It must be a Brin-hater.
                            http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
                            title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive

                            Alberto Monteiro




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                            http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
                          • Julia
                            ... From: brin-l-bounces@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-bounces@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Alberto Monteiro Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:35 AM To: Killer Bs
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: brin-l-bounces@... [mailto:brin-l-bounces@...] On
                              Behalf Of Alberto Monteiro
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:35 AM
                              To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
                              Subject: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/


                              > It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
                              > stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
                              >
                              The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi,
                              Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.

                              It must be a Brin-hater.
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
                              title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive

                              Alberto Monteiro




                              _______________________________________________


                              Any clue to the identity of the troll?

                              Julia


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                            • Alberto Monteiro
                              ... Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there s nothing we could do. Alberto Monteiro _______________________________________________
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                Julia wrote:
                                >
                                >> The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan,
                                >> Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
                                >
                                >> It must be a Brin-hater.
                                >
                                > Any clue to the identity of the troll?
                                >
                                Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there's nothing
                                we could do.

                                Alberto Monteiro


                                _______________________________________________
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                              • David Hobby
                                ... So the user is Abductive , and he seems to spend a lot of time proposing articles for deletion. All except Streaker now just have notability tags,
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                  ...
                                  >> It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
                                  >> stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
                                  >>
                                  > The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan, Tymbrimi,
                                  > Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
                                  >
                                  > It must be a Brin-hater.
                                  > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
                                  > title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive

                                  So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot
                                  of time proposing articles for deletion. All except
                                  Streaker now just have "notability" tags, which seem
                                  mild enough to leave. But it could well be the first
                                  step in a campaign. He seems to not have status much
                                  higher than the rest of us editors, so the articles won't
                                  be deleted without due process.

                                  If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the
                                  best defense is references to them in books not written
                                  by David Brin. Does anybody know any?

                                  ---David

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                                • Alberto Monteiro
                                  ... It s probably an attack account : a sock puppet of a known user, created to give anonimity to a coward behavior (if it used the _real_ account, we might
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                    David Hobby wrote:
                                    >
                                    > So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot
                                    > of time proposing articles for deletion.
                                    >
                                    It's probably an "attack account": a sock puppet of a known
                                    user, created to give anonimity to a coward behavior (if it
                                    used the _real_ account, we might retaliate by proposing for
                                    deletion _its_ articles!).

                                    In the Portuguese wikipedia those trolls are severely
                                    repressed; one editor who abused sock-puppeteering was
                                    banned until after 2012-12-21.

                                    > If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the
                                    > best defense is references to them in books not written
                                    > by David Brin. Does anybody know any?
                                    >
                                    Probably some science fiction magazines have material about
                                    Brin's characters, races, etc. Also, there's GURPS Uplift,
                                    who is _not_ by Him.

                                    (and I still think Category should not be in the magma table!!!)

                                    Alberto Monteiro


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                                  • Matt Grimaldi
                                    Don t you also need a picture of his face for that? -- Matt ... From: Alberto Monteiro To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                      Don't you also need a picture of his face for that?

                                      -- Matt



                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: Alberto Monteiro <albmont@...>
                                      To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion <brin-l@...>
                                      Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 8:08:00 AM
                                      Subject: RE: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/


                                      Julia wrote:
                                      >
                                      >> The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan,
                                      >> Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
                                      >
                                      >> It must be a Brin-hater.
                                      >
                                      > Any clue to the identity of the troll?
                                      >
                                      Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there's nothing
                                      we could do.

                                      Alberto Monteiro


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                                    • Alberto Monteiro
                                      ... Yes - but it s easier to get the picture from the name than the name from the picture, unless you have Shinigami eyes. Alberto Monteiro
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                        Matt Grimaldi wrote:
                                        >
                                        >>>> It must be a Brin-hater.
                                        >>>
                                        >>> Any clue to the identity of the troll?
                                        >>>
                                        >> Who cares? Unless you are the owner of a Death Note, there's nothing
                                        >> we could do.
                                        >
                                        > Don't you also need a picture of his face for that?
                                        >
                                        Yes - but it's easier to get the picture from the name than the
                                        name from the picture, unless you have Shinigami eyes.

                                        Alberto Monteiro


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                                      • Trent Shipley
                                        ... All of which does not change the fact that Abductive is correct. The articles previously mentioned in this family of threads simply do not meet
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                          Alberto Monteiro wrote:

                                          > David Hobby wrote:
                                          >
                                          >> So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot
                                          >> of time proposing articles for deletion.
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          > It's probably an "attack account": a sock puppet of a known
                                          > user, created to give anonimity to a coward behavior (if it
                                          > used the _real_ account, we might retaliate by proposing for
                                          > deletion _its_ articles!).
                                          >
                                          > In the Portuguese wikipedia those trolls are severely
                                          > repressed; one editor who abused sock-puppeteering was
                                          > banned until after 2012-12-21.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >> If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the
                                          >> best defense is references to them in books not written
                                          >> by David Brin. Does anybody know any?
                                          >>
                                          >>
                                          > Probably some science fiction magazines have material about
                                          > Brin's characters, races, etc. Also, there's GURPS Uplift,
                                          > who is _not_ by Him.
                                          >
                                          > (and I still think Category should not be in the magma table!!!)
                                          >
                                          > Alberto Monteiro
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > _______________________________________________
                                          > http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          All of which does not change the fact that Abductive is correct. The
                                          articles previously mentioned in this family of threads simply do not
                                          meet en-Wikipedia's notablity guidelines.

                                          See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29

                                          gives:

                                          *This page in a nutshell:* A book is generally notable if it verifiably
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:V> meets through reliable
                                          sources <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources>, *one*
                                          or more of the following criteria:

                                          1. The book has been the subject^[1]
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-subject-0>
                                          of multiple, non-trivial^[2]
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-nontrivial-1>
                                          published works whose sources are independent of the book
                                          itself,^[3]
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-independent-2>
                                          with at least some of these works serving a general audience. This
                                          includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles,
                                          other books, television documentaries and reviews. Some of these
                                          works should contain sufficient critical commentary to allow the
                                          article to grow past a simple plot summary
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:PLOT>.
                                          * The immediately preceding criterion excludes media re-prints
                                          of press releases, flap copy, or other publications where
                                          the author, its publisher, agent, or other self-interested
                                          parties advertise or speak about the book.^[4]
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-selfpromotion-3>

                                          2. The book has won a major literary award
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Literary_awards>.
                                          3. The book has been considered by reliable sources to have made a
                                          significant contribution to a notable motion picture, or other art
                                          form, or event or political or religious movement.
                                          4. The book is the subject of instruction at multiple grade schools,
                                          high schools, universities /or/ post-graduate programs in any
                                          particular country.^[5]
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-textbooks-4>

                                          5. The book's author is so historically significant that any of his
                                          or her written works may be considered notable.^[6]
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28books%29#cite_note-study-5>




                                          And


                                          Derivative articles

                                          Shortcut <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Shortcut>:
                                          WP:BKD <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BKD>

                                          It is a general consensus on Wikipedia that articles should not be split
                                          and split again into ever more minutiae of detail treatment, with each
                                          split normally lowering the level of notability. What this means is that
                                          while a book may be notable, it is not normally advisable to have a
                                          separate article on a character or thing from the book, and it is often
                                          the case that despite the book being manifestly notable, a derivative
                                          article from it is not. Exceptions do, of course, exist—especially in
                                          the case of very famous books. For example few would argue that Charles
                                          Dickens <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Dickens>' /A Christmas
                                          Carol <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Christmas_Carol>/ does not warrant
                                          a 'subarticle' on its protagonist, Ebenezer Scrooge
                                          <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebenezer_Scrooge>.

                                          In some situations, where the book itself does not fit the established
                                          criteria for notability, or if the book is notable but the author has an
                                          article in Wikipedia, it may be better to feature material about the
                                          book in the author's article, rather than creating a separate article
                                          for that book.


                                          ----------------------------------------


                                          So there would seem to be a hierarchy acceptable to en-Wikipedia's
                                          content guidelines.


                                          Article/biography on David Brin preferably written by an objective party.

                                          Uplift universe

                                          Section on Brightness Reef Universe

                                          Section on Jijo Universe.

                                          NOTABLE books by David Brin.

                                          David Brin's contribution to the concept of uplift.


                                          All "trivia" -- characters, places, races, star ships -- rolled up under
                                          either the article on a book or an article on the uplift universe.


                                          You will loose a lot of information this way as sizable articles get
                                          reduced to three sentences in an annotated list of trivia.


                                          I have worked with Wikimedia before. The believe (but I am not certain)
                                          the admins can extract articles complete with history, et cetera. I
                                          would inform the Wikipedia admins that you represent a community of
                                          David Brin fans and you want to move content to a new MediaWiki based
                                          site with a compatible Creative Commons license that _likes_ science
                                          fiction trivia.




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                                        • Julia Thompson
                                          ... From: brin-l-bounces@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-bounces@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of David Hobby Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:42 PM To: Killer Bs
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 31, 2009
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                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: brin-l-bounces@... [mailto:brin-l-bounces@...] On
                                            Behalf Of David Hobby
                                            Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:42 PM
                                            To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
                                            Subject: Re: The wikipedia trolls may win again (III) :-/

                                            ...
                                            >> It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
                                            >> stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
                                            >>
                                            > The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan,
                                            > Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
                                            >
                                            > It must be a Brin-hater.
                                            > http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?
                                            > title=Special:Contributions&limit=50&target=Abductive

                                            So the user is "Abductive", and he seems to spend a lot of time proposing
                                            articles for deletion. All except Streaker now just have "notability" tags,
                                            which seem mild enough to leave. But it could well be the first step in a
                                            campaign. He seems to not have status much higher than the rest of us
                                            editors, so the articles won't be deleted without due process.

                                            If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the best defense is
                                            references to them in books not written by David Brin. Does anybody know
                                            any?

                                            ---David

                                            _______________________________________________

                                            Jumping in here without reading the whole thread (bad form, I know, but I
                                            have no time to even be reading what I've read and replying *now*), but an
                                            amazon.com search might turn something up. It's given me stupid references
                                            to things inside books when I've been looking for just one thing in
                                            particular, so, at least in theory, that should work now.

                                            Julia

                                            and no, I don't have time to do the searches myself any time this week


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                                          • David Hobby
                                            ... ... Julia-- Thanks for the suggestion. Google Book Search seems better, though. I found a synopsis in _What do I read next? 97_ that way. (Or little
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jan 1, 2010
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                                              ...
                                              >>> It seems like they are running a seek-and-destroy against every Brin
                                              >>> stuff in wikipedia. After Alvin, the trolls will delete Streaker.
                                              >>>
                                              >> The Troll is targeting for deletion: Gubru, G'Kek, EarthClan,
                                              >> Tymbrimi, Streaker (David Brin), Jophur, and Alvin Hph-wayuo.
                                              ...
                                              > If we want the articles to stay up on Wikipedia, the best defense is
                                              > references to them in books not written by David Brin. Does anybody know
                                              > any?
                                              >
                                              > ---David
                                              >
                                              > _______________________________________________
                                              >
                                              > Jumping in here without reading the whole thread (bad form, I know, but I
                                              > have no time to even be reading what I've read and replying *now*), but an
                                              > amazon.com search might turn something up. It's given me stupid references
                                              > to things inside books when I've been looking for just one thing in
                                              > particular, so, at least in theory, that should work now.
                                              >
                                              > Julia
                                              ...

                                              Julia--

                                              Thanks for the suggestion. Google Book Search seems better, though.
                                              I found a synopsis in _What do I read next? 97_ that way.
                                              (Or little snippets of it, since that's what the search returned.)

                                              So I put that and some other references in the Alvin article, removed
                                              the tags from it, and put it (and 15 more Brin-related pages) on my
                                              watchlist.

                                              The sense I get is that Abductive is on a crusade against poorly-sourced
                                              articles. It's silly in a way, since it's easy enough to hunt up
                                              sources, and putting them in doesn't really improve the articles.
                                              The best spin I can put on his actions are that he's trying to get
                                              people to improve "their" articles. Once people have put enough
                                              effort into an article to add references, it WILL probably be a
                                              good article.

                                              ---David

                                              Oh, and Happy New Year to everybody!

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