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Re: Obama and the 'Drug Killer'

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  • Andrew Crystall
    ... No, that s just a good argument for compulsory publishing of all drug studies (a very good idea being pushed on lots of other grounds as well), and a
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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      On 31 Oct 2008 at 12:48, John Williams wrote:

      > http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/10/30/obama-drug-medicine-oped-cx_ch_1031hooper.html
      >
      > Obama And The 'Drug Killer'
      > Charles Hooper 10.31.08, 12:00 AM ET

      No, that's just a good argument for compulsory publishing of all drug
      studies (a very good idea being pushed on lots of other grounds as
      well), and a strict "develop it or lose it" policy on the IP of
      drugs.

      AndrewC
      Dawn Falcon

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    • Bryon Daly
      On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 3:48 PM, John Williams ... So the claim here is that Americans are almost solely subsidizing the drug development costs for the entire
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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        On Fri, Oct 31, 2008 at 3:48 PM, John Williams
        <jwilliams42@...>wrote:

        >
        > http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/10/30/obama-drug-medicine-oped-cx_ch_1031hooper.html
        >
        >
        > As I wrote in the Concise Encyclopedia of Economics: "What complicates
        > the picture is socialized medicine, which exists in almost every country
        > outside the United States and even, with Medicare and Medicaid, in the
        > United States. Because governments in countries with socialized medicine
        > tend to be the sole bargaining agent in dealing with drug companies,
        > these governments often set prices that are low by U.S. standards. This
        > comes about because these governments have monopsony power--that is,
        > monopoly power on the buyer's side--and they use this power to get good
        > deals. These governments are, in effect, saying that if they can't buy
        > it cheaply, their citizens can't get it."
        >

        So the claim here is that Americans are almost solely subsidizing the drug
        development costs for the entire rest of the world? And by posting this, I
        assume you think this should remain status quo? Wow, you must really enjoy
        spreading our wealth around! Welcome to the liberal democratic elite! :-)


        >
        > Drugs are not too expensive in the U.S.; they're artificially cheap
        > elsewhere. It's also not much of an exaggeration to say that new drugs
        > are developed for, and as a result of, the American market because of
        > its pricing flexibility.
        >

        And yet the drug companies still sell those under priced drugs in those
        countries? Can't they just not sell them there if a fair price isn't met?
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      • John Williams
        Bryon Daly ... That is an odd way to phrase it. I would have paraphrased part of the article as, Americans are subsidizing drug
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 1, 2008
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          Bryon Daly <lintman@...>


          > So the claim here is that Americans are almost solely subsidizing the drug
          > development costs for the entire rest of the world?

          That is an odd way to phrase it. I would have paraphrased part of the article as,
          "Americans are subsidizing drug development costs for other countries." With
          subsidize being used in the sense of "to aid or promote".

          > And by posting this, I
          > assume you think this should remain status quo?

          No, in an ideal world I would like to see everyone move towards a more
          free system.

          > And yet the drug companies still sell those under priced drugs in those
          > countries? Can't they just not sell them there if a fair price isn't met?

          Drug development is an industry with high fixed costs. Once those fixed,
          or sunk, costs have been committed, the drugs are sold for the price that
          the market will bear. According to the expert who wrote the article, the
          more socialized markets settle on a lower price than the less socialized
          markets. If all markets were socialized, then all the prices would be lower.
          Then companies would not be able to justify committing the fixed costs
          on future development of some drugs, and some drugs would not be
          developed.




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        • Doug Pensinger
          ... What if there were government incentives/grants to develop the pharms? It seems to me that the free market does a poor job in this regard; emphasizing
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 3, 2008
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            John Williams wrote:

            > Drug development is an industry with high fixed costs. Once those fixed,
            > or sunk, costs have been committed, the drugs are sold for the price that
            > the market will bear. According to the expert who wrote the article, the
            > more socialized markets settle on a lower price than the less socialized
            > markets. If all markets were socialized, then all the prices would be lower.
            > Then companies would not be able to justify committing the fixed costs
            > on future development of some drugs, and some drugs would not be
            > developed.

            What if there were government incentives/grants to develop the pharms?
            It seems to me that the free market does a poor job in this regard;
            emphasizing stuff like boner pills because they're wildly profitable
            and in recycling previously developed drugs with slight adjustments in
            formulation or in combination with other drugs. There is a huge
            disincentive to develop something like a cure for the cold because
            over the counter remedies are a hugely profitable industry.

            Doug
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          • Andrew Crystall
            ... Frankly, sounds like a reasonable use of cash. Offer money for drug development with the caveat that any compounds developed would be jointly owned by the
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 3, 2008
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              On 3 Nov 2008 at 21:48, Doug Pensinger wrote:

              > John Williams wrote:
              >
              > > Drug development is an industry with high fixed costs. Once those fixed,
              > > or sunk, costs have been committed, the drugs are sold for the price that
              > > the market will bear. According to the expert who wrote the article, the
              > > more socialized markets settle on a lower price than the less socialized
              > > markets. If all markets were socialized, then all the prices would be lower.
              > > Then companies would not be able to justify committing the fixed costs
              > > on future development of some drugs, and some drugs would not be
              > > developed.
              >
              > What if there were government incentives/grants to develop the pharms?
              > It seems to me that the free market does a poor job in this regard;
              > emphasizing stuff like boner pills because they're wildly profitable
              > and in recycling previously developed drugs with slight adjustments in
              > formulation or in combination with other drugs. There is a huge
              > disincentive to develop something like a cure for the cold because
              > over the counter remedies are a hugely profitable industry.

              Frankly, sounds like a reasonable use of cash. Offer money for drug
              development with the caveat that any compounds developed would be
              jointly owned by the drug company and the government, or if the drug
              company backed out from that drug, they'd have to transfer the rights
              entirely to the government.

              AndrewC
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            • John Williams
              ... I don t want them doing that with my money! ... It seems to me the government does a poor job in this regard. I don t want a bunch of politicians deciding
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 4, 2008
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                On Mon, Nov 3, 2008 at 9:48 PM, Doug Pensinger <brighto@...> wrote:
                > What if there were government incentives/grants to develop the pharms?

                I don't want them doing that with my money!

                > It seems to me that the free market does a poor job in this regard;

                It seems to me the government does a poor job in this regard. I don't
                want a bunch of politicians deciding which drugs to spend my money on.
                I'm perfectly capable of deciding for myself.

                > There is a huge
                > disincentive to develop something like a cure for the cold because
                > over the counter remedies are a hugely profitable industry.

                Which is more than counter-balanced by the immense incentive of making
                a fortune by selling a cure, usurping all the profits from the various
                symptom alleviators. It seems more likely that people who talk about
                cures for the common cold don't really know what they are talking
                about and underestimate the complexity and difficulty of the
                situation, than that there is collusion to not develop such a drug in
                order to keep selling symptom alleviators.
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              • Andrew Crystall
                ... Well, that narrows down your profession nicely, Dr. Williams. AndrewC _______________________________________________
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 5, 2008
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                  On 4 Nov 2008 at 7:42, John Williams wrote:

                  > > It seems to me that the free market does a poor job in this regard;
                  >
                  > It seems to me the government does a poor job in this regard. I don't
                  > want a bunch of politicians deciding which drugs to spend my money on.
                  > I'm perfectly capable of deciding for myself.

                  Well, that narrows down your profession nicely, Dr. Williams.

                  AndrewC
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                • Curtis Burisch
                  ... Talk about confrontational behaviour, Andrew -- did you forget your coffee this morning? Have another valium and try get some rest, huh? As for the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 5, 2008
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                    Andrew Crystall wrote:

                    >> > It seems to me that the free market does a poor job in this regard;
                    >>
                    >> It seems to me the government does a poor job in this regard. I don't
                    >> want a bunch of politicians deciding which drugs to spend my money on.
                    >> I'm perfectly capable of deciding for myself.

                    >Well, that narrows down your profession nicely, Dr. Williams.

                    Also wrote:

                    >Sorry Julia, but bullshit. It's precisely the same - attacking someone
                    >because they don't agree with your views. If religion, lack of religion,
                    >politics, creed, colour or whatever is used by the criminal as their
                    >excuse is quite, afaik, irrelevant.

                    Talk about confrontational behaviour, Andrew -- did you forget your coffee
                    this morning?

                    Have another valium and try get some rest, huh?

                    As for the militant Athiest -- he could just as easily have been Muslim or
                    Christian. Basically, he's just a nutcase. His beliefs don't really come
                    into it.

                    C

                    Grumpy and tired Maru


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                  • Andrew Crystall
                    ... Um, confrontational? I m pretty happy right now actually. Something about a nation seeing sense in who they elected. Anyway... I m not shy about speaking
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 5, 2008
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                      On 5 Nov 2008 at 10:58, Curtis Burisch wrote:

                      > Andrew Crystall wrote:
                      >
                      > >> > It seems to me that the free market does a poor job in this regard;
                      > >>
                      > >> It seems to me the government does a poor job in this regard. I don't
                      > >> want a bunch of politicians deciding which drugs to spend my money on.
                      > >> I'm perfectly capable of deciding for myself.
                      >
                      > >Well, that narrows down your profession nicely, Dr. Williams.
                      >
                      > Also wrote:
                      >
                      > >Sorry Julia, but bullshit. It's precisely the same - attacking someone
                      > >because they don't agree with your views. If religion, lack of religion,
                      > >politics, creed, colour or whatever is used by the criminal as their
                      > >excuse is quite, afaik, irrelevant.
                      >
                      > Talk about confrontational behaviour, Andrew -- did you forget your coffee
                      > this morning?

                      Um, confrontational? I'm pretty happy right now actually. Something
                      about a nation seeing sense in who they elected.

                      Anyway... I'm not shy about speaking my mind, and I've been very
                      clear on the issue of people allowing their predudice to dictate how
                      they feel about events simply because the word "religion" is involved
                      (There's a lot of people out there who just shut down their higher
                      brain functions when its mentioned).

                      Do I really need to give my standard spiel on tolerance on Brin-L?

                      Poking Dr. Williams is just sport. I freely admit to troll baiting,
                      with the "whatcha gonna do about it?" subscript. As I've said before,
                      this community is waaay too tolerant of that sort of thing. I do it
                      with people I find narrow minded and intollerant. If I was wrong to
                      label them that I end up appologising pretty quickly. Ain't happened
                      in a long time.

                      AndrewC

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                    • Alberto Monteiro
                      Your heard it first from me! Joe the Plumber 2012 for the GOP!!! :-P Alberto Monteiro _______________________________________________
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 5, 2008
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                        Your heard it first from me!

                        Joe the Plumber 2012 for the GOP!!! :-P

                        Alberto Monteiro

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