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Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname

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  • mhbowes11
    Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname that Woulfe connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe s original Irish
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 18, 2009
      Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname that Woulfe
      connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's original "Irish Names and
      Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh (p. 47), but
      separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh is Cork, while the
      location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland." (Locations are noted at first
      occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number correspondence
      list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.

      Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is also listed with
      Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct" Gaelic surname root of
      Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O' Buadhaigh from Cork.
      ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.) We might find
      Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of different Buadachs there. A
      couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
      stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious," the meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
      we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaigh nearly synonymous with Baothghalach, and
      Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.

      So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some parts of Ireland"
      potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius (apparently Latin) seems very
      rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google search, so we're unlikely to
      have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of Names in Irish
      Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach: http://www.s-
      gabriel.org/names/mari/AnnalsIndex/Masculine/Baothghalach.shtml . Someone versed in
      Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach references by
      searching them and translating the results that come up in the Annals at:
      http://celt.ucc.ie/search.html . In particular we could try to isolate locations referred to
      by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't think we'll ever
      substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some modern "relatives" in Ireland
      that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...

      Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more than one Gaelic
      surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest phonetic match is the
      most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of Baothghalach:
      http://inogolo.com/pronunciation/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up the same for O'
      Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they would add it and to check
      back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take different
      pronunciations in different areas.

      This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and Bowie.

      Here's the original text at Google Books:

      http://books.google.com/books?
      id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=woulfe+irish+surnames+bowes&source=w
      eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ&sig=oqYG27ggO8WCxtzLUotZ10N_At8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&
      resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1

      Maybe others can find something more on this with their own searching?
    • Allen Bowes
      Perhaps we should take into account here that what Woulfe was not stating was that Bowes derives from Baothghalach per se, rather that this name, along with
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 18, 2009
        Perhaps we should take into account here that what Woulfe was not stating was that 'Bowes' derives from Baothghalach per se, rather that this name, along with Buadaigh  had been Anglicised as Bowes. For me that is a valuable distinction, the rendering of that name into Bowes well just reflect the linguistic limitations of those recording the name during the 16th and later centuries.
         
         


        --- On Sun, 18/1/09, mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...> wrote:
        From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
        Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
        To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, 18 January, 2009, 7:43 PM

        Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname that Woulfe
        connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's original "Irish Names and
        Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh (p. 47), but
        separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh is Cork, while the
        location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland." (Locations are noted at first
        occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number correspondence
        list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.

        Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is also listed with
        Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct" Gaelic surname root of
        Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O' Buadhaigh from Cork.
        ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.) We might find
        Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of different Buadachs there. A
        couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
        stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious, " the meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
        we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaig h nearly synonymous with Baothghalach, and
        Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.

        So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some parts of Ireland"
        potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius (apparently Latin) seems very
        rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google search, so we're unlikely to
        have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of Names in Irish
        Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach: http://www.s-
        gabriel.org/ names/mari/ AnnalsIndex/ Masculine/ Baothghalach. shtml . Someone versed in
        Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach references by
        searching them and translating the results that come up in the Annals at:
        http://celt. ucc.ie/search. html . In particular we could try to isolate locations referred to
        by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't think we'll ever
        substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some modern "relatives" in Ireland
        that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...

        Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more than one Gaelic
        surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest phonetic match is the
        most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of Baothghalach:
        http://inogolo. com/pronunciatio n/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up the same for O'
        Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they would add it and to check
        back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take different
        pronunciations in different areas.

        This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and Bowie.

        Here's the original text at Google Books:

        http://books. google.com/ books?
        id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ& pg=PA37&lpg= PA37&dq=woulfe+ irish+surnames+ bowes&source= w
        eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ& sig=oqYG27ggO8WC xtzLUotZ10N_ At8&hl=en& sa=X&oi=book_ result&
        resnum=2&ct= result#PPP1, M1

        Maybe others can find something more on this with their own searching?


      • mhbowes11
        I m not sure I get what we re distinguishing between. I could think of the anglicization of the Gaelic name as a way of deriving Bowes from Baothghalach,
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 18, 2009
          I'm not sure I get what we're distinguishing between. I could think of the anglicization of
          the Gaelic name as a way of "deriving" "Bowes" from "Baothghalach," or put another way,
          that anglicizing is deriving. I can't figure out what other kind of derivation there would
          be between the Gaelic surnames and their anglicization, or what alternative connection
          between the names you suggest that Woulfe is not suggesting.

          Hope that made sense :-}


          --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...> wrote:
          >
          > Perhaps we should take into account here that what Woulfe was not stating was that
          'Bowes' derives from Baothghalach per se, rather that this name, along with
          Buadaigh  had been Anglicised as Bowes. For me that is a valuable distinction, the
          rendering of that name into Bowes well just reflect the linguistic limitations of those
          recording the name during the 16th and later centuries.
          >  
          >  
          >
          >
          > --- On Sun, 18/1/09, mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
          > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
          > To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Sunday, 18 January, 2009, 7:43 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname that Woulfe
          > connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's original "Irish Names and
          > Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh (p. 47), but
          > separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh is Cork, while the
          > location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland." (Locations are noted at
          first
          > occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number correspondence
          > list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.
          >
          > Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is also listed with
          > Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct" Gaelic surname root of
          > Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O' Buadhaigh from Cork.
          > ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.) We might find
          > Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of different Buadachs there.
          A
          > couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
          > stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious, " the meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
          > we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaig h nearly synonymous with Baothghalach, and
          > Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.
          >
          > So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some parts of Ireland"
          > potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius (apparently Latin) seems very
          > rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google search, so we're unlikely
          to
          > have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of Names in Irish
          > Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach: http://www.s-
          > gabriel.org/ names/mari/ AnnalsIndex/ Masculine/ Baothghalach. shtml . Someone
          versed in
          > Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach references by
          > searching them and translating the results that come up in the Annals at:
          > http://celt. ucc.ie/search. html . In particular we could try to isolate locations referred
          to
          > by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't think we'll ever
          > substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some modern "relatives" in Ireland
          > that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...
          >
          > Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more than one Gaelic
          > surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest phonetic match is the
          > most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of Baothghalach:
          > http://inogolo. com/pronunciatio n/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up the same for O'
          > Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they would add it and to
          check
          > back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take different
          > pronunciations in different areas.
          >
          > This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and Bowie.
          >
          > Here's the original text at Google Books:
          >
          > http://books. google.com/ books?
          > id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ& pg=PA37&lpg= PA37&dq=woulfe+ irish+surnames+
          bowes&source= w
          > eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ& sig=oqYG27ggO8WC xtzLUotZ10N_ At8&hl=en& sa=X&oi=book_
          result&
          > resnum=2&ct= result#PPP1, M1
          >
          > Maybe others can find something more on this with their own searching?
          >
        • Allen Bowes
          I was reflecting upon Woulfe s remarks, featured on page 40 of the 1993 edition of his work:   distinct names or surnames when there are two or more
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 19, 2009
            I was reflecting upon Woulfe's remarks, featured on page 40 of the 1993 edition of his work:
             
            "distinct names or surnames when there are two or more corresponding to the same English or anglicised name or surname are seperated by semicolons"

            --- On Sun, 18/1/09, mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...> wrote:
            From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
            Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
            To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, 18 January, 2009, 11:42 PM

            I'm not sure I get what we're distinguishing between. I could think of the anglicization of
            the Gaelic name as a way of "deriving" "Bowes" from "Baothghalach, " or put another way,
            that anglicizing is deriving. I can't figure out what other kind of derivation there would
            be between the Gaelic surnames and their anglicization, or what alternative connection
            between the names you suggest that Woulfe is not suggesting.

            Hope that made sense :-}

            --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@. ..> wrote:
            >
            > Perhaps we should take into account here that what Woulfe was not stating was that
            'Bowes' derives from Baothghalach per se, rather that this name, along with
            Buadaigh  had been Anglicised as Bowes. For me that is a valuable distinction, the
            rendering of that name into Bowes well just reflect the linguistic limitations of those
            recording the name during the 16th and later centuries.
            >  
            >  
            >
            >
            > --- On Sun, 18/1/09, mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@ ...> wrote:
            >
            > From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@ ...>
            > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
            > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
            > Date: Sunday, 18 January, 2009, 7:43 PM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname that Woulfe
            > connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's original "Irish Names and
            > Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh (p. 47), but
            > separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh is Cork, while the
            > location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland." (Locations are noted at
            first
            > occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number correspondence
            > list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.
            >
            > Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is also listed with
            > Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct" Gaelic surname root of
            > Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O' Buadhaigh from Cork.
            > ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.) We might find
            > Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of different Buadachs there.
            A
            > couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
            > stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious, " the meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
            > we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaig h nearly synonymous with Baothghalach, and
            > Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.
            >
            > So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some parts of Ireland"
            > potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius (apparently Latin) seems very
            > rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google search, so we're unlikely
            to
            > have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of Names in Irish
            > Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach: http://www.s-
            > gabriel.org/ names/mari/ AnnalsIndex/ Masculine/ Baothghalach. shtml . Someone
            versed in
            > Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach references by
            > searching them and translating the results that come up in the Annals at:
            > http://celt. ucc.ie/search. html . In particular we could try to isolate locations referred
            to
            > by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't think we'll ever
            > substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some modern "relatives" in Ireland
            > that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...
            >
            > Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more than one Gaelic
            > surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest phonetic match is the
            > most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of Baothghalach:
            > http://inogolo. com/pronunciatio n/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up the same for O'
            > Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they would add it and to
            check
            > back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take different
            > pronunciations in different areas.
            >
            > This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and Bowie.
            >
            > Here's the original text at Google Books:
            >
            > http://books. google.com/ books?
            > id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ& pg=PA37&lpg= PA37&dq=woulfe+ irish+surnames+
            bowes&source= w
            > eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ& sig=oqYG27ggO8WC xtzLUotZ10N_ At8&hl=en& sa=X&oi=book_
            result&
            > resnum=2&ct= result#PPP1, M1
            >
            > Maybe others can find something more on this with their own searching?
            >


          • Frank Bowe
            Martha,In lanes English/Irish Dictionary,Valiant, is gaisgemail,and vain diomain,no meaning found for Boalgalacor similar.I intend to visit Irish archives in
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 20, 2009
              Martha,In lanes English/Irish Dictionary,Valiant, is gaisgemail,and vain diomain,no meaning found for Boalgalacor similar.I intend to visit Irish archives in Bishop street , Dublin 8, if you google it
              it gives an E/m address.Enjoyed Inauguration.
              Frank


              From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
              To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, 18 January, 2009 19:43:34
              Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname

              Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname that Woulfe
              connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's original "Irish Names and
              Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh (p. 47), but
              separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh is Cork, while the
              location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland." (Locations are noted at first
              occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number correspondence
              list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.

              Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is also listed with
              Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct" Gaelic surname root of
              Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O' Buadhaigh from Cork.
              ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.) We might find
              Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of different Buadachs there. A
              couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
              stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious, " the meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
              we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaig h nearly synonymous with Baothghalach, and
              Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.

              So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some parts of Ireland"
              potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius (apparently Latin) seems very
              rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google search, so we're unlikely to
              have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of Names in Irish
              Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach: http://www.s-
              gabriel.org/ names/mari/ AnnalsIndex/ Masculine/ Baothghalach. shtml . Someone versed in
              Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach references by
              searching them and translating the results that come up in the Annals at:
              http://celt. ucc.ie/search. html . In particular we could try to isolate locations referred to
              by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't think we'll ever
              substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some modern "relatives" in Ireland
              that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...

              Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more than one Gaelic
              surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest phonetic match is the
              most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of Baothghalach:
              http://inogolo. com/pronunciatio n/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up the same for O'
              Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they would add it and to check
              back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take different
              pronunciations in different areas.

              This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and Bowie.

              Here's the original text at Google Books:

              http://books. google.com/ books?
              id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ& pg=PA37&lpg= PA37&dq=woulfe+ irish+surnames+ bowes&source= w
              eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ& sig=oqYG27ggO8WC xtzLUotZ10N_ At8&hl=en& sa=X&oi=book_ result&
              resnum=2&ct= result#PPP1, M1

              Maybe others can find something more on this with their own searching?


            • Allen Bowes
              Frank, this Boalgalacor is a new one for me, I m supposing this is a phoenetic rendition of an earlier Gaelic name? If so what would that be and what way can
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
                Frank, this 'Boalgalacor' is a new one for me, I'm supposing this is a phoenetic rendition of an earlier Gaelic name? If so what would that be and what way can it be connected with Bowe/Bowes, which as you know Edward MacLysaght states derive their meaning of 'victorious' from the early Irish word 'Buadhach'
                 
                As you observed Woulfe offers two Gaelic names for the name Bowes. one being Baothghalach, this name I understand may also be found as Beolagh, Behellagh and the more obscure Latinised version of Boetius. Now I could be in error here but I have an impression that the determining element of the original Gaelic that confers the meaning of 'victorious' is 'Bua'. Now not being a Gaelic speaker myself I wonder if 'Bao' has a different meaning to 'Bua'? That being so then are we possibly in the presence of two seperate surnames, and one that despite Woulfe's rightfully exalted genelogical status may not in fact have any meaning or fruitful relationship to Buadhaigh/Bowe/Bowes?
                 
                 


                --- On Wed, 21/1/09, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                From: Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...>
                Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
                To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 1:14 AM

                Martha,In lanes English/Irish Dictionary,Valiant, is gaisgemail,and vain diomain,no meaning found for Boalgalacor similar.I intend to visit Irish archives in Bishop street , Dublin 8, if you google it
                it gives an E/m address.Enjoyed Inauguration.
                Frank


                From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@ one-name. org>
                To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                Sent: Sunday, 18 January, 2009 19:43:34
                Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname

                Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname that Woulfe
                connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's original "Irish Names and
                Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh (p. 47), but
                separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh is Cork, while the
                location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland." (Locations are noted at first
                occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number correspondence
                list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.

                Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is also listed with
                Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct" Gaelic surname root of
                Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O' Buadhaigh from Cork.
                ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.) We might find
                Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of different Buadachs there. A
                couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
                stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious, " the meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
                we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaig h nearly synonymous with Baothghalach, and
                Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.

                So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some parts of Ireland"
                potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius (apparently Latin) seems very
                rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google search, so we're unlikely to
                have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of Names in Irish
                Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach: http://www.s-
                gabriel.org/ names/mari/ AnnalsIndex/ Masculine/ Baothghalach. shtml . Someone versed in
                Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach references by
                searching them and translating the results that come up in the Annals at:
                http://celt. ucc.ie/search. html . In particular we could try to isolate locations referred to
                by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't think we'll ever
                substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some modern "relatives" in Ireland
                that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...

                Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more than one Gaelic
                surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest phonetic match is the
                most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of Baothghalach:
                http://inogolo. com/pronunciatio n/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up the same for O'
                Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they would add it and to check
                back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take different
                pronunciations in different areas.

                This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and Bowie.

                Here's the original text at Google Books:

                http://books. google.com/ books?
                id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ& pg=PA37&lpg= PA37&dq=woulfe+ irish+surnames+ bowes&source= w
                eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ& sig=oqYG27ggO8WC xtzLUotZ10N_ At8&hl=en& sa=X&oi=book_ result&
                resnum=2&ct= result#PPP1, M1

                Maybe others can find something more on this with their own searching?



              • Frank Bowe
                Hi Allen, The well-kinow Irish Song ODnnell Abu, ODonnell Victorious,Triumphant , adjective buadac with dot over d and c,Victory noun buaid-e, singular ,
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
                  Hi Allen, The well-kinow Irish Song ODnnell Abu, ODonnell Victorious,Triumphant ,
                  adjective buadac with dot over d and c,Victory noun buaid-e, singular , victor of many
                  buaidada.My dictionary is English to Irish  I neeg the other one.O grave where is thy Victory ,A uaimga hait a buil do buaid .Finally the ref.says Boadicea Victoria.There is
                  a meaning for boal , which I will research.I was thought Irish tro English in a private school , in National school [state-run], every subject was thougfht thro Irish.At
                  Speakers Corner in Hyde Park , London , an American was kidding a Dublin speaker
                  about His strange way of speaking, Mc Guinness replied " I'll have you know I was
                  taught English thro Irish by THe IRish Christian Brothers , that made me Illiterate in
                  two lanquages"
                  Frank

                   


                  From: Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...>
                  To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009 9:07:47
                  Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname

                  Frank, this 'Boalgalacor' is a new one for me, I'm supposing this is a phoenetic rendition of an earlier Gaelic name? If so what would that be and what way can it be connected with Bowe/Bowes, which as you know Edward MacLysaght states derive their meaning of 'victorious' from the early Irish word 'Buadhach'
                   
                  As you observed Woulfe offers two Gaelic names for the name Bowes. one being Baothghalach, this name I understand may also be found as Beolagh, Behellagh and the more obscure Latinised version of Boetius. Now I could be in error here but I have an impression that the determining element of the original Gaelic that confers the meaning of 'victorious' is 'Bua'. Now not being a Gaelic speaker myself I wonder if 'Bao' has a different meaning to 'Bua'? That being so then are we possibly in the presence of two seperate surnames, and one that despite Woulfe's rightfully exalted genelogical status may not in fact have any meaning or fruitful relationship to Buadhaigh/Bowe/ Bowes?
                   
                   


                  --- On Wed, 21/1/09, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                  From: Frank Bowe <bowe_f@yahoo. co.uk>
                  Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
                  To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                  Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 1:14 AM

                  Martha,In lanes English/Irish Dictionary,Valiant, is gaisgemail,and vain diomain,no meaning found for Boalgalacor similar.I intend to visit Irish archives in Bishop street , Dublin 8, if you google it
                  it gives an E/m address.Enjoyed Inauguration.
                  Frank


                  From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@ one-name. org>
                  To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Sunday, 18 January, 2009 19:43:34
                  Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname

                  Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname that Woulfe
                  connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's original "Irish Names and
                  Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh (p. 47), but
                  separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh is Cork, while the
                  location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland." (Locations are noted at first
                  occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number correspondence
                  list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.

                  Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is also listed with
                  Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct" Gaelic surname root of
                  Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O' Buadhaigh from Cork.
                  ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.) We might find
                  Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of different Buadachs there. A
                  couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
                  stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious, " the meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
                  we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaig h nearly synonymous with Baothghalach, and
                  Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.

                  So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some parts of Ireland"
                  potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius (apparently Latin) seems very
                  rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google search, so we're unlikely to
                  have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of Names in Irish
                  Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach: http://www.s-
                  gabriel.org/ names/mari/ AnnalsIndex/ Masculine/ Baothghalach. shtml . Someone versed in
                  Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach references by
                  searching them and translating the results that come up in the Annals at:
                  http://celt. ucc.ie/search. html . In particular we could try to isolate locations referred to
                  by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't think we'll ever
                  substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some modern "relatives" in Ireland
                  that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...

                  Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more than one Gaelic
                  surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest phonetic match is the
                  most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of Baothghalach:
                  http://inogolo. com/pronunciatio n/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up the same for O'
                  Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they would add it and to check
                  back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take different
                  pronunciations in different areas.

                  This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and Bowie.

                  Here's the original text at Google Books:

                  http://books. google.com/ books?
                  id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ& pg=PA37&lpg= PA37&dq=woulfe+ irish+surnames+ bowes&source= w
                  eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ& sig=oqYG27ggO8WC xtzLUotZ10N_ At8&hl=en& sa=X&oi=book_ result&
                  resnum=2&ct= result#PPP1, M1

                  Maybe others can find something more on this with their own searching?




                • Jeff
                  Hey Frank, Thanks a million for your email, brought a smile to my face, ah the Christian Brothers now there s an education for you, I met a squeezebox player
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 21, 2009
                    Hey Frank,

                    Thanks a million for your email, brought a smile to my face, ah the
                    Christian Brothers now there's an education for you, I met a
                    squeezebox player in London one day, an old fella, he told me he
                    had not been back to Eire for many a year, when I enquired as to why
                    that was he just looked at me and said 'dem Christian brudders'.

                    Cheers too for the confirmation on Bua (victory) you are correct
                    about Bodicea, her original name was of course Boudicca, the ancient
                    British version of Buadhach.

                    It would be a fine thing if you can cast your Gaelic microscope over
                    the name/term 'Boa' and 'Bao' be in teresting to see if these have
                    any specific meaning.

                    Good luck



                    --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Allen, The well-kinow Irish Song ODnnell Abu, ODonnell
                    Victorious,Triumphant ,
                    > adjective buadac with dot over d and c,Victory noun buaid-e,
                    singular , victor of many
                    > buaidada.My dictionary is English to Irish  I neeg the other one.O
                    grave where is thy Victory ,A uaimga hait a buil do buaid .Finally
                    the ref.says Boadicea Victoria.There is
                    > a meaning for boal , which I will research.I was thought Irish tro
                    English in a private school , in National school [state-run], every
                    subject was thougfht thro Irish.At
                    > Speakers Corner in Hyde Park , London , an American was kidding a
                    Dublin speaker
                    > about His strange way of speaking, Mc Guinness replied " I'll have
                    you know I was
                    > taught English thro Irish by THe IRish Christian Brothers , that
                    made me Illiterate in
                    > two lanquages"
                    > Frank
                    >
                    >  
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...>
                    > To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009 9:07:47
                    > Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes
                    Surname
                    >
                    >
                    > Frank, this 'Boalgalacor' is a new one for me, I'm supposing this
                    is a phoenetic rendition of an earlier Gaelic name? If so what would
                    that be and what way can it be connected with Bowe/Bowes, which as
                    you know Edward MacLysaght states derive their meaning
                    of 'victorious' from the early Irish word 'Buadhach'
                    >
                    > As you observed Woulfe offers two Gaelic names for the name Bowes.
                    one being Baothghalach, this name I understand may also be found as
                    Beolagh, Behellagh and the more obscure Latinised version of Boetius.
                    Now I could be in error here but I have an impression that
                    the determining element of the original Gaelic that confers the
                    meaning of 'victorious' is 'Bua'. Now not being a Gaelic speaker
                    myself I wonder if 'Bao' has a different meaning to 'Bua'? That being
                    so then are we possibly in the presence of two seperate surnames, and
                    one that despite Woulfe's rightfully exalted genelogical status may
                    not in fact have any meaning or fruitful relationship to
                    Buadhaigh/Bowe/ Bowes?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Wed, 21/1/09, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: Frank Bowe <bowe_f@yahoo. co.uk>
                    > Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes
                    Surname
                    > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 1:14 AM
                    >
                    >
                    > Martha,In lanes English/Irish Dictionary,Valiant, is gaisgemail,and
                    vain diomain,no meaning found for Boalgalacor similar.I intend to
                    visit Irish archives in Bishop street , Dublin 8, if you google it
                    > it gives an E/m address.Enjoyed Inauguration.
                    > Frank
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@ one-name. org>
                    > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Sunday, 18 January, 2009 19:43:34
                    > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
                    >
                    >
                    > Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname
                    that Woulfe
                    > connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's
                    original "Irish Names and
                    > Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh
                    (p. 47), but
                    > separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh
                    is Cork, while the
                    > location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland."
                    (Locations are noted at first
                    > occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number
                    correspondence
                    > list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.
                    >
                    > Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is
                    also listed with
                    > Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct"
                    Gaelic surname root of
                    > Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O'
                    Buadhaigh from Cork.
                    > ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.)
                    We might find
                    > Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of
                    different Buadachs there. A
                    > couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name
                    meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
                    > stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious, " the
                    meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
                    > we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaig h nearly synonymous with
                    Baothghalach, and
                    > Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.
                    >
                    > So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some
                    parts of Ireland"
                    > potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius
                    (apparently Latin) seems very
                    > rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google
                    search, so we're unlikely to
                    > have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of
                    Names in Irish
                    > Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach:
                    http://www.s-
                    > gabriel.org/ names/mari/ AnnalsIndex/ Masculine/ Baothghalach.
                    shtml . Someone versed in
                    > Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach
                    references by
                    > searching them and translating the results that come up in the
                    Annals at:
                    > http://celt. ucc.ie/search. html . In particular we could try to
                    isolate locations referred to
                    > by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't
                    think we'll ever
                    > substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some
                    modern "relatives" in Ireland
                    > that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...
                    >
                    > Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more
                    than one Gaelic
                    > surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest
                    phonetic match is the
                    > most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of
                    Baothghalach:
                    > http://inogolo. com/pronunciatio n/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up
                    the same for O'
                    > Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they
                    would add it and to check
                    > back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take
                    different
                    > pronunciations in different areas.
                    >
                    > This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and
                    Bowie.
                    >
                    > Here's the original text at Google Books:
                    >
                    > http://books. google.com/ books?
                    > id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ& pg=PA37&lpg= PA37&dq=woulfe+ irish+surnames+
                    bowes&source= w
                    > eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ& sig=oqYG27ggO8WC xtzLUotZ10N_ At8&hl=en&
                    sa=X&oi=book_ result&
                    > resnum=2&ct= result#PPP1, M1
                    >
                    > Maybe others can find something more on this with their own
                    searching?
                    >
                  • Frank Bowe
                    Hi Jeff, thanks for reply, you asked me about Baol, it means danger , and in The Irish National Anthem, in Gaelic , a reference , Tonight WE ll man the Bearne
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 22, 2009
                      Hi Jeff, thanks for reply, you asked me about Baol, it means danger , and in The Irish
                      National Anthem, in Gaelic , a reference , Tonight WE'll man the Bearne Baol, ie the
                      dangerous Gap, and the sobg " Kelly THe Boy from Killane", a ref. The grim gap of Death.We were preoccupied with fighting and singing ,and one or two more unmentionable activities.Could Boadicea be a  Latin name which The Romans attributed
                      to the Red Haired , braless one .In Ireland if you encounter a Red Haired woman on the
                      road on a May Day [1st], you are behoved to turn around and go back from whence you
                      came.! You can just imagine how those Roman Soldiers felt, when she drovethem out of
                      Londoin.I am inclined to digress , which is another one of our aberations . Honor Tracy
                      said " Wherever words are spoken in The Known World , words are generally intended,
                      as a means of communication.!  The only exception is in Ireland where words are intended as a means of deception.
                      Frank
                       

                       


                      From: Jeff <bowes2000@...>
                      To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009 16:39:06
                      Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname

                      Hey Frank,

                      Thanks a million for your email, brought a smile to my face, ah the
                      Christian Brothers now there's an education for you, I met a a
                      squeezebox player in Brighton one day, an old fella, he told me he
                      had not been back to Eire for many a year, when I enquired as to why
                      that was he just looked at me and said 'dem Christian brudders'.

                      Cheers too for the confirmation on Bua (victory) you are correct
                      about Bodicea, her original name was of course Boudicca, the ancient
                      British version of Buadhach.

                      It would be a fine thing if you can cast your Gaelic microscope over
                      the name/term Boa, be in teresting to see if it has any specific
                      meaning.

                      Good luck

                      --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Allen, The well-kinow Irish Song ODnnell Abu, ODonnell
                      Victorious,Triumpha nt ,
                      > adjective buadac with dot over d and c,Victory noun buaid-e,
                      singular , victor of many
                      > buaidada.My dictionary is English to Irish  I neeg the other one.O
                      grave where is thy Victory ,A uaimga hait a buil do buaid .Finally
                      the ref.says Boadicea Victoria.There is
                      > a meaning for boal , which I will research.I was thought Irish tro
                      English in a private school , in National school [state-run], every
                      subject was thougfht thro Irish.At
                      > Speakers Corner in Hyde Park , London , an American was kidding a
                      Dublin speaker
                      > about His strange way of speaking, Mc Guinness replied " I'll have
                      you know I was
                      > taught English thro Irish by THe IRish Christian Brothers , that
                      made me Illiterate in
                      > two lanquages"
                      > Frank
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      > From: Allen Bowes <bowes2000@. ..>
                      > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009 9:07:47
                      > Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes
                      Surname
                      >
                      >
                      > Frank, this 'Boalgalacor' is a new one for me, I'm supposing this
                      is a phoenetic rendition of an earlier Gaelic name? If so what would
                      that be and what way can it be connected with Bowe/Bowes, which as
                      you know Edward MacLysaght states derive their meaning
                      of 'victorious' from the early Irish word 'Buadhach'
                      >
                      > As you observed Woulfe offers two Gaelic names for the name Bowes.
                      one being Baothghalach, this name I understand may also be found as
                      Beolagh, Behellagh and the more obscure Latinised version of Boetius.
                      Now I could be in error here but I have an impression that
                      the determining element of the original Gaelic that confers the
                      meaning of 'victorious' is 'Bua'. Now not being a Gaelic speaker
                      myself I wonder if 'Bao' has a different meaning to 'Bua'? That being
                      so then are we possibly in the presence of two seperate surnames, and
                      one that despite Woulfe's rightfully exalted genelogical status may
                      not in fact have any meaning or fruitful relationship to
                      Buadhaigh/Bowe/ Bowes?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- On Wed, 21/1/09, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Frank Bowe <bowe_f@yahoo. co.uk>
                      > Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes
                      Surname
                      > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 1:14 AM
                      >
                      >
                      > Martha,In lanes English/Irish Dictionary,Valiant, is gaisgemail,and
                      vain diomain,no meaning found for Boalgalacor similar.I intend to
                      visit Irish archives in Bishop street , Dublin 8, if you google it
                      > it gives an E/m address.Enjoyed Inauguration.
                      > Frank
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ____________ _________ _________ __
                      > From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@ one-name. org>
                      > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Sunday, 18 January, 2009 19:43:34
                      > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
                      >
                      >
                      > Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname
                      that Woulfe
                      > connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's
                      original "Irish Names and
                      > Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh
                      (p. 47), but
                      > separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh
                      is Cork, while the
                      > location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland."
                      (Locations are noted at first
                      > occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number
                      correspondence
                      > list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.
                      >
                      > Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is
                      also listed with
                      > Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct"
                      Gaelic surname root of
                      > Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O'
                      Buadhaigh from Cork.
                      > ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.)
                      We might find
                      > Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of
                      different Buadachs there. A
                      > couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name
                      meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
                      > stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious, " the
                      meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
                      > we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaig h nearly synonymous with
                      Baothghalach, and
                      > Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.
                      >
                      > So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some
                      parts of Ireland"
                      > potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius
                      (apparently Latin) seems very
                      > rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google
                      search, so we're unlikely to
                      > have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of
                      Names in Irish
                      > Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach:
                      http://www.s-
                      > gabriel.org/ names/mari/ AnnalsIndex/ Masculine/ Baothghalach.
                      shtml . Someone versed in
                      > Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach
                      references by
                      > searching them and translating the results that come up in the
                      Annals at:
                      > http://celt. ucc.ie/search. html . In particular we could try to
                      isolate locations referred to
                      > by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't
                      think we'll ever
                      > substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some
                      modern "relatives" in Ireland
                      > that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...
                      >
                      > Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more
                      than one Gaelic
                      > surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest
                      phonetic match is the
                      > most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of
                      Baothghalach:
                      > http://inogolo. com/pronunciatio n/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up
                      the same for O'
                      > Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they
                      would add it and to check
                      > back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take
                      different
                      > pronunciations in different areas.
                      >
                      > This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and
                      Bowie.
                      >
                      > Here's the original text at Google Books:
                      >
                      > http://books. google.com/ books?
                      > id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ& pg=PA37&lpg= PA37&dq=woulfe+ irish+surnames+
                      bowes&source= w
                      > eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ& sig=oqYG27ggO8WC xtzLUotZ10N_ At8&hl=en&
                      sa=X&oi=book_ result&
                      > resnum=2&ct= result#PPP1, M1
                      >
                      > Maybe others can find something more on this with their own
                      searching?
                      >


                    • Allen Bowes
                      Hey Frank,   Take your comments about conversation, somebody once described to me the differing technique in literature used by English and Irish authors but
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 22, 2009
                        Hey Frank,
                         
                        Take your comments about conversation, somebody once described to me the differing technique in literature used by English and Irish authors but do you know I forgot the details.
                         
                        Curious the negative association of the color 'red', my Mother used to say "never see green and red" as if in seeing those together would cause the sky to fall down, a fate that was according to Alexander the Great's chroncler  the only thing the Celts were afraid of. Suppose there is some folklore tradition of the 'Sidh' still lurking around the remote regions of Ireland's collective unconscious.
                         
                        As to Boadicea I think the name could appear in the works of Tacitus, but was given greater prominence during the Victorian period, hence the statue of yer woman outside the Houses of Indeceny in Westminster.
                         
                        So 'Bao' means 'danger' interesting, in that case 'Baothghalach' seems to be a distinct name from 'Buadhaigh' and a having a different pronunciation. If so I wonder why Woulfe links 'Bowes' to both Gaelic names?
                         
                        Regards
                         

                        --- On Thu, 22/1/09, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                        From: Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...>
                        Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Re: Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
                        To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, 22 January, 2009, 12:50 PM

                        Hi Jeff, thanks for reply, you asked me about Baol, it means danger , and in The Irish
                        National Anthem, in Gaelic , a reference , Tonight WE'll man the Bearne Baol, ie the
                        dangerous Gap, and the sobg " Kelly THe Boy from Killane", a ref. The grim gap of Death.We were preoccupied with fighting and singing ,and one or two more unmentionable activities.Could Boadicea be a  Latin name which The Romans attributed
                        to the Red Haired , braless one .In Ireland if you encounter a Red Haired woman on the
                        road on a May Day [1st], you are behoved to turn around and go back from whence you
                        came.! You can just imagine how those Roman Soldiers felt, when she drovethem out of
                        Londoin.I am inclined to digress , which is another one of our aberations . Honor Tracy
                        said " Wherever words are spoken in The Known World , words are generally intended,
                        as a means of communication. !  The only exception is in Ireland where words are intended as a means of deception.
                        Frank
                         

                         


                        From: Jeff <bowes2000@yahoo. co.uk>
                        To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                        Sent: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009 16:39:06
                        Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname

                        Hey Frank,

                        Thanks a million for your email, brought a smile to my face, ah the
                        Christian Brothers now there's an education for you, I met a a
                        squeezebox player in Brighton one day, an old fella, he told me he
                        had not been back to Eire for many a year, when I enquired as to why
                        that was he just looked at me and said 'dem Christian brudders'.

                        Cheers too for the confirmation on Bua (victory) you are correct
                        about Bodicea, her original name was of course Boudicca, the ancient
                        British version of Buadhach.

                        It would be a fine thing if you can cast your Gaelic microscope over
                        the name/term Boa, be in teresting to see if it has any specific
                        meaning.

                        Good luck

                        --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Allen, The well-kinow Irish Song ODnnell Abu, ODonnell
                        Victorious,Triumpha nt ,
                        > adjective buadac with dot over d and c,Victory noun buaid-e,
                        singular , victor of many
                        > buaidada.My dictionary is English to Irish  I neeg the other one.O
                        grave where is thy Victory ,A uaimga hait a buil do buaid .Finally
                        the ref.says Boadicea Victoria.There is
                        > a meaning for boal , which I will research.I was thought Irish tro
                        English in a private school , in National school [state-run], every
                        subject was thougfht thro Irish.At
                        > Speakers Corner in Hyde Park , London , an American was kidding a
                        Dublin speaker
                        > about His strange way of speaking, Mc Guinness replied " I'll have
                        you know I was
                        > taught English thro Irish by THe IRish Christian Brothers , that
                        made me Illiterate in
                        > two lanquages"
                        > Frank
                        >
                        >  
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > From: Allen Bowes <bowes2000@. ..>
                        > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009 9:07:47
                        > Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes
                        Surname
                        >
                        >
                        > Frank, this 'Boalgalacor' is a new one for me, I'm supposing this
                        is a phoenetic rendition of an earlier Gaelic name? If so what would
                        that be and what way can it be connected with Bowe/Bowes, which as
                        you know Edward MacLysaght states derive their meaning
                        of 'victorious' from the early Irish word 'Buadhach'
                        >
                        > As you observed Woulfe offers two Gaelic names for the name Bowes.
                        one being Baothghalach, this name I understand may also be found as
                        Beolagh, Behellagh and the more obscure Latinised version of Boetius.
                        Now I could be in error here but I have an impression that
                        the determining element of the original Gaelic that confers the
                        meaning of 'victorious' is 'Bua'. Now not being a Gaelic speaker
                        myself I wonder if 'Bao' has a different meaning to 'Bua'? That being
                        so then are we possibly in the presence of two seperate surnames, and
                        one that despite Woulfe's rightfully exalted genelogical status may
                        not in fact have any meaning or fruitful relationship to
                        Buadhaigh/Bowe/ Bowes?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- On Wed, 21/1/09, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@yahoo. co.uk> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: Frank Bowe <bowe_f@yahoo. co.uk>
                        > Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes
                        Surname
                        > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 1:14 AM
                        >
                        >
                        > Martha,In lanes English/Irish Dictionary,Valiant, is gaisgemail,and
                        vain diomain,no meaning found for Boalgalacor similar.I intend to
                        visit Irish archives in Bishop street , Dublin 8, if you google it
                        > it gives an E/m address.Enjoyed Inauguration.
                        > Frank
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ____________ _________ _________ __
                        > From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@ one-name. org>
                        > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Sunday, 18 January, 2009 19:43:34
                        > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname
                        >
                        >
                        > Astute observer Frank emailed mention of a different Gaelic surname
                        that Woulfe
                        > connected with Bowes. I found it at Google Books in Woulfe's
                        original "Irish Names and
                        > Surnames" (1906) text. Here Woulfe lists Bowes as from O' Buadhaigh
                        (p. 47), but
                        > separately from Baothghalach (p. 37). The location for O'Buadhaigh
                        is Cork, while the
                        > location for Baothghalach is simply "some parts of Ireland."
                        (Locations are noted at first
                        > occurrence of a Gaelic surname by a number, and the location/number
                        correspondence
                        > list starts at p. 32). Note Bowe is only linked with O' Buadhaigh.
                        >
                        > Meanwhile the "anglicization" (actually Latin I think) Boetius is
                        also listed with
                        > Baothghalach, but at the same place is given another "distinct"
                        Gaelic surname root of
                        > Buadhach with the location of Kerry, so different from our O'
                        Buadhaigh from Cork.
                        > ("Distinct" names are indicated by a colon between the alternates.)
                        We might find
                        > Baothghalach in The Book of Munster. There are a number of
                        different Buadachs there. A
                        > couple sites refer to Boetius as an Irish first name
                        meaning "foolish valor." It's not a
                        > stretch to see that as a near synonym for "victorious, " the
                        meaning of Buadhagh. Thus
                        > we'd have Buadhagh/O'Buadhaig h nearly synonymous with
                        Baothghalach, and
                        > Bowes/Bowe/etc. nearly synonymous with Boetius.
                        >
                        > So now we have another Gaelic surname, Baothghalach, from "some
                        parts of Ireland"
                        > potentially linked to Bowes and Boetius. However, Boetius
                        (apparently Latin) seems very
                        > rare, as only several as a surname show up in a brief Google
                        search, so we're unlikely to
                        > have a chance at matching one with DNA. Meanwhile, the "Index of
                        Names in Irish
                        > Annals" offers up only two examples to date of Baothghalach:
                        http://www.s-
                        > gabriel.org/ names/mari/ AnnalsIndex/ Masculine/ Baothghalach.
                        shtml . Someone versed in
                        > Gaelic might be able to pin down some O' Buadhaigh and Baothghalach
                        references by
                        > searching them and translating the results that come up in the
                        Annals at:
                        > http://celt. ucc.ie/search. html . In particular we could try to
                        isolate locations referred to
                        > by "some parts of Ireland" (mainly for the record, since I don't
                        think we'll ever
                        > substantiate any modern ties to it). If we could find some
                        modern "relatives" in Ireland
                        > that still know Gaelic to help with our project ...
                        >
                        > Woulfe suggests that where an anglicization is linked with more
                        than one Gaelic
                        > surname, and there is nothing else to go on, assume the closest
                        phonetic match is the
                        > most relevant one (p. 30). Here you can listen to the sound of
                        Baothghalach:
                        > http://inogolo. com/pronunciatio n/Baothghalach. i tired to pull up
                        the same for O'
                        > Buadhaigh, but they didn't have it. A note popped up that they
                        would add it and to check
                        > back. This tool is probably of limited use when words might take
                        different
                        > pronunciations in different areas.
                        >
                        > This source also links O' Buadhaigh with Boag, Bogue, Bowe, and
                        Bowie.
                        >
                        > Here's the original text at Google Books:
                        >
                        > http://books. google.com/ books?
                        > id=NmYSAAAAYAAJ& pg=PA37&lpg= PA37&dq=woulfe+ irish+surnames+
                        bowes&source= w
                        > eb&ots=o1Jghlf4nJ& sig=oqYG27ggO8WC xtzLUotZ10N_ At8&hl=en&
                        sa=X&oi=book_ result&
                        > resnum=2&ct= result#PPP1, M1
                        >
                        > Maybe others can find something more on this with their own
                        searching?
                        >



                      • mhbowes11
                        I m having fun following your conversation ... Here s a different angle on Baothghalach from Webster s online dictionary: Gaelic- baoth- foolish, stupid,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 24, 2009
                          I'm having fun following your conversation ...

                          Here's a different angle on Baothghalach from Webster's online dictionary:

                          Gaelic- baoth- foolish, stupid, unwise

                          [http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/translation/Gaelic/baoth%5d

                          Easy to see that these traits could well lead one into danger, but still not so clear how
                          Bowes got to be mentioned as an anglicization of it.

                          Martha
                        • Jeff
                          We have to consider that Woulfe was reliant too upon sources and may well have wrongly attributed Baothghalach to Bowes , clues may lie in the formation of
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 25, 2009
                            We have to consider that Woulfe was reliant too upon sources and may
                            well have wrongly attributed Baothghalach to 'Bowes', clues may lie
                            in the formation of the name itself. As we speculated the first
                            element of Gaelic names may have considerable importance in meaning,
                            thus 'Bua' is distinct from 'Bao'. As the Anglicisation process was
                            chiefly, not exclusively, one of phonetics we are reminded of the
                            Gaelic pronunciation of the name Buadhaigh as 'Bwig';the last 'ig'
                            pronounced (in Munster at any rate) as in 'fig').

                            To those ears unaccustomed to Irish, who were recording and
                            transforming Gaelic names, this would have sounded like 'Bowee' and
                            written as 'Bowe'. It may well be that the final 's' as in Bowes
                            arrived only during the period of Anglicisation, mostly 16/17th
                            Century. Recorded either as suggestive of a perosn belonging to the
                            Bowe family, as in 'he/she is one the Bowe's', alternatively it may
                            be that, as was often the case the recorded simply imposed that name
                            upon a family, or individual, for purposes of demographic accounting.

                            My own name has undergone a number of variations in the official
                            record, currently it's Bowe, yet my great-Grandfather is recorded as
                            Bowes, his grand-Father is noted as Bowe. I am tempted to conclude
                            that perhaps originally, during the time of the Corca Laidhe, there
                            was just Ua Buadhach, which evolved into Buaig, Buadhaig, Buadhaigh,
                            Bogue, Bowe, Bwee, Boye, Boe, and Boey.

                            There seems to be a phonetic evolutionary flow to these variants,
                            when we add 'Bowes' to the mix an incongrutuity is present.

                            Cheers. Allen, or is that 'Ailin'?



                            --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <martha.bowes@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > I'm having fun following your conversation ...
                            >
                            > Here's a different angle on Baothghalach from Webster's online
                            dictionary:
                            >
                            > Gaelic- baoth- foolish, stupid, unwise
                            >
                            > [http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/translation/Gaelic/baoth%5d
                            >
                            > Easy to see that these traits could well lead one into danger, but
                            still not so clear how
                            > Bowes got to be mentioned as an anglicization of it.
                            >
                            > Martha
                            >
                          • mhbowes11
                            There seems to be a phonetic evolutionary flow to these variants, when we add Bowes to the mix an incongrutuity is present. Thanks for the summary. My
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 25, 2009
                              "There seems to be a phonetic evolutionary flow to these variants, when we add 'Bowes' to
                              the mix an incongrutuity is present."

                              Thanks for the summary.

                              My hunch is what you've suggested, that between Bowe and Bowes, Bowe is the
                              Anglicization of O'Buadhaigh, and any Gaelic Bowes are just a variant due to adding an "s"
                              to indicate relatedness or some such. Whereas, other Irish Bowes are from England.

                              My family shows Bowe in my earliest ancestor's marriage record in 1800, but all his kids
                              were Bowes after they emigrated to NY. (I believe all their birth records burned with the
                              other records in Ballyragget :-( ) There was a Bowe in NY they said was a cousin from
                              Ireland. The earliest ancestor's grandson's marriage in NY was recorded Bow. All other are
                              Bowes, including the death record in NY for the earliest ancestor, the emigrant father who
                              was born, or at least recorded then as, Bowe. 'Course we have the Viking DNA, so it's
                              interesting it would have ever been Bowe in Ireland. Lots of stubborn mysteries.

                              I sometimes wonder if there was even a casualness about surnames for some time apart
                              from how they were written. Rather like some women today answer to both their birth
                              surname and married surname as if they really are both their surname. In other words,
                              the inconsistency may have been in speech as well as writing?

                              Martha

                              --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > We have to consider that Woulfe was reliant too upon sources and may
                              > well have wrongly attributed Baothghalach to 'Bowes', clues may lie
                              > in the formation of the name itself. As we speculated the first
                              > element of Gaelic names may have considerable importance in meaning,
                              > thus 'Bua' is distinct from 'Bao'. As the Anglicisation process was
                              > chiefly, not exclusively, one of phonetics we are reminded of the
                              > Gaelic pronunciation of the name Buadhaigh as 'Bwig';the last 'ig'
                              > pronounced (in Munster at any rate) as in 'fig').
                              >
                              > To those ears unaccustomed to Irish, who were recording and
                              > transforming Gaelic names, this would have sounded like 'Bowee' and
                              > written as 'Bowe'. It may well be that the final 's' as in Bowes
                              > arrived only during the period of Anglicisation, mostly 16/17th
                              > Century. Recorded either as suggestive of a perosn belonging to the
                              > Bowe family, as in 'he/she is one the Bowe's', alternatively it may
                              > be that, as was often the case the recorded simply imposed that name
                              > upon a family, or individual, for purposes of demographic accounting.
                              >
                              > My own name has undergone a number of variations in the official
                              > record, currently it's Bowe, yet my great-Grandfather is recorded as
                              > Bowes, his grand-Father is noted as Bowe. I am tempted to conclude
                              > that perhaps originally, during the time of the Corca Laidhe, there
                              > was just Ua Buadhach, which evolved into Buaig, Buadhaig, Buadhaigh,
                              > Bogue, Bowe, Bwee, Boye, Boe, and Boey.
                              >
                              > There seems to be a phonetic evolutionary flow to these variants,
                              > when we add 'Bowes' to the mix an incongrutuity is present.
                              >
                              > Cheers. Allen, or is that 'Ailin'?
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <martha.bowes@>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > I'm having fun following your conversation ...
                              > >
                              > > Here's a different angle on Baothghalach from Webster's online
                              > dictionary:
                              > >
                              > > Gaelic- baoth- foolish, stupid, unwise
                              > >
                              > > [http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/translation/Gaelic/baoth%5d
                              > >
                              > > Easy to see that these traits could well lead one into danger, but
                              > still not so clear how
                              > > Bowes got to be mentioned as an anglicization of it.
                              > >
                              > > Martha
                              > >
                              >
                            • Frank Bowe
                              Martha, I am resolved not to veer into anecM17 dotal irrelevance, I think the variations in Bowe or Bowes are accidental or unintended, when people who were
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 26, 2009
                                Martha, I am resolved not to veer into anecM17 dotal irrelevance, I think the variations in Bowe or
                                Bowes are accidental or unintended, when people who were not of our group in WAterford
                                were refering toour family benignly ,they would say"The Bowes of Waterford", people who
                                didnt know us personally would not be sure , Bowe or Bowes myGaelic name is Proinseas
                                O' Buadaig, ie son Buadaig , pronounced Boo, wig, boo, as in Boor.Now I bought a book
                                The Great Migratations, by John Haywood, is good but it doesnt touch Ireland regarding Viking or Normans ,however,Bryan Sykes Prof. Genetics at Oxford says,"Men from Norway
                                and Sweden[Not Denmark],have a Y chrom.M17 Haplotye ,in the Orkneys , 55% of men
                                have it but ony 5% of women, meaning mostly men invaded Orkney and sawooff the locals
                                and integrated ,dispelling My Brothers theory. Attempts to find similar genetic Danish influence
                                in England failed , maybe because the Danes and Anglo -Saxons are from similar area.M17
                                is rare in Ireland , but similar marketrs are found in 6% of the Irish , mostly around the East
                                coast , as they didnt venture inland..In the last 5years a major Viking Settlement was found
                                on the Upper Suir , and is regarded as a major Find,, Shipyard, Settlements.Not
                                fully investigated Yet!The Vikings broke up the Anglo -saxon settlements of Northhumberland
                                Mercia and East Anglia.They turned Pickland into Scotland,and it was invaded by Irish
                                Immigrants who called themselves Scots. Hope this Explains the confusions of THe Viling
                                Bowes of Balltragget. Regards Frank

                                From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
                                To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, 26 January, 2009 1:43:00
                                Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname - Baothghalach

                                "There seems to be a phonetic evolutionary flow to these variants, when we add 'Bowes' to
                                the mix an incongrutuity is present."

                                Thanks for the summary.

                                My hunch is what you've suggested, that between Bowe and Bowes, Bowe is the
                                Anglicization of O'Buadhaigh, and any Gaelic Bowes are just a variant due to adding an "s"
                                to indicate relatedness or some such. Whereas, other Irish Bowes are from England.

                                My family shows Bowe in my earliest ancestor's marriage record in 1800, but all his kids
                                were Bowes after they emigrated to NY. (I believe all their birth records burned with the
                                other records in Ballyragget :-( ) There was a Bowe in NY they said was a cousin from
                                Ireland. The earliest ancestor's grandson's marriage in NY was recorded Bow. All other are
                                Bowes, including the death record in NY for the earliest ancestor, the emigrant father who
                                was born, or at least recorded then as, Bowe. 'Course we have the Viking DNA, so it's
                                interesting it would have ever been Bowe in Ireland. Lots of stubborn mysteries.

                                I sometimes wonder if there was even a casualness about surnames for some time apart
                                from how they were written. Rather like some women today answer to both their birth
                                surname and married surname as if they really are both their surname. In other words,
                                the inconsistency may have been in speech as well as writing?

                                Martha

                                --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@. ..> wrote:
                                >
                                > We have to consider that Woulfe was reliant too upon sources and may
                                > well have wrongly attributed Baothghalach to 'Bowes', clues may lie
                                > in the formation of the name itself. As we speculated the first
                                > element of Gaelic names may have considerable importance in meaning,
                                > thus 'Bua' is distinct from 'Bao'. As the Anglicisation process was
                                > chiefly, not exclusively, one of phonetics we are reminded of the
                                > Gaelic pronunciation of the name Buadhaigh as 'Bwig';the last 'ig'
                                > pronounced (in Munster at any rate) as in 'fig').
                                >
                                > To those ears unaccustomed to Irish, who were recording and
                                > transforming Gaelic names, this would have sounded like 'Bowee' and
                                > written as 'Bowe'. It may well be that the final 's' as in Bowes
                                > arrived only during the period of Anglicisation, mostly 16/17th
                                > Century. Recorded either as suggestive of a perosn belonging to the
                                > Bowe family, as in 'he/she is one the Bowe's', alternatively it may
                                > be that, as was often the case the recorded simply imposed that name
                                > upon a family, or individual, for purposes of demographic accounting.
                                >
                                > My own name has undergone a number of variations in the official
                                > record, currently it's Bowe, yet my great-Grandfather is recorded as
                                > Bowes, his grand-Father is noted as Bowe. I am tempted to conclude
                                > that perhaps originally, during the time of the Corca Laidhe, there
                                > was just Ua Buadhach, which evolved into Buaig, Buadhaig, Buadhaigh,
                                > Bogue, Bowe, Bwee, Boye, Boe, and Boey.
                                >
                                > There seems to be a phonetic evolutionary flow to these variants,
                                > when we add 'Bowes' to the mix an incongrutuity is present.
                                >
                                > Cheers. Allen, or is that 'Ailin'?
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "mhbowes11" <martha.bowes@ >
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I'm having fun following your conversation ...
                                > >
                                > > Here's a different angle on Baothghalach from Webster's online
                                > dictionary:
                                > >
                                > > Gaelic- baoth- foolish, stupid, unwise
                                > >
                                > > [http://www.websters -online-dictiona ry.org/translati on/Gaelic/ baoth]
                                > >
                                > > Easy to see that these traits could well lead one into danger, but
                                > still not so clear how
                                > > Bowes got to be mentioned as an anglicization of it.
                                > >
                                > > Martha
                                > >
                                >


                              • Allen Bowes
                                There is a difficulty in distinguishing Saxon from later Danish markers, both peoples as Frank touches upon, came from the same area, and were seperated only
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 26, 2009
                                  There is a difficulty in distinguishing Saxon from later Danish markers, both peoples as Frank touches upon, came from the same area, and were seperated only by three centuries in terms of their arrival in Britain.

                                  --- On Mon, 26/1/09, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                                  From: Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [bowesgenealogy] Re: Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname - Baothghalach
                                  To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, 26 January, 2009, 8:56 PM

                                  Martha, I am resolved not to veer into anecM17 dotal irrelevance, I think the variations in Bowe or
                                  Bowes are accidental or unintended, when people who were not of our group in WAterford
                                  were refering toour family benignly ,they would say"The Bowes of Waterford", people who
                                  didnt know us personally would not be sure , Bowe or Bowes myGaelic name is Proinseas
                                  O' Buadaig, ie son Buadaig , pronounced Boo, wig, boo, as in Boor.Now I bought a book
                                  The Great Migratations, by John Haywood, is good but it doesnt touch Ireland regarding Viking or Normans ,however,Bryan Sykes Prof. Genetics at Oxford says,"Men from Norway
                                  and Sweden[Not Denmark],have a Y chrom.M17 Haplotye ,in the Orkneys , 55% of men
                                  have it but ony 5% of women, meaning mostly men invaded Orkney and sawooff the locals
                                  and integrated ,dispelling My Brothers theory. Attempts to find similar genetic Danish influence
                                  in England failed , maybe because the Danes and Anglo -Saxons are from similar area.M17
                                  is rare in Ireland , but similar marketrs are found in 6% of the Irish , mostly around the East
                                  coast , as they didnt venture inland..In the last 5years a major Viking Settlement was found
                                  on the Upper Suir , and is regarded as a major Find,, Shipyard, Settlements. Not
                                  fully investigated Yet!The Vikings broke up the Anglo -saxon settlements of Northhumberland
                                  Mercia and East Anglia.They turned Pickland into Scotland,and it was invaded by Irish
                                  Immigrants who called themselves Scots. Hope this Explains the confusions of THe Viling
                                  Bowes of Balltragget. Regards Frank

                                  From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@ one-name. org>
                                  To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Monday, 26 January, 2009 1:43:00
                                  Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: Woulfe's Gaelic Origins for Bowes Surname - Baothghalach

                                  "There seems to be a phonetic evolutionary flow to these variants, when we add 'Bowes' to
                                  the mix an incongrutuity is present."

                                  Thanks for the summary.

                                  My hunch is what you've suggested, that between Bowe and Bowes, Bowe is the
                                  Anglicization of O'Buadhaigh, and any Gaelic Bowes are just a variant due to adding an "s"
                                  to indicate relatedness or some such. Whereas, other Irish Bowes are from England.

                                  My family shows Bowe in my earliest ancestor's marriage record in 1800, but all his kids
                                  were Bowes after they emigrated to NY. (I believe all their birth records burned with the
                                  other records in Ballyragget :-( ) There was a Bowe in NY they said was a cousin from
                                  Ireland. The earliest ancestor's grandson's marriage in NY was recorded Bow. All other are
                                  Bowes, including the death record in NY for the earliest ancestor, the emigrant father who
                                  was born, or at least recorded then as, Bowe. 'Course we have the Viking DNA, so it's
                                  interesting it would have ever been Bowe in Ireland. Lots of stubborn mysteries.

                                  I sometimes wonder if there was even a casualness about surnames for some time apart
                                  from how they were written. Rather like some women today answer to both their birth
                                  surname and married surname as if they really are both their surname. In other words,
                                  the inconsistency may have been in speech as well as writing?

                                  Martha

                                  --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@. ..> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > We have to consider that Woulfe was reliant too upon sources and may
                                  > well have wrongly attributed Baothghalach to 'Bowes', clues may lie
                                  > in the formation of the name itself. As we speculated the first
                                  > element of Gaelic names may have considerable importance in meaning,
                                  > thus 'Bua' is distinct from 'Bao'. As the Anglicisation process was
                                  > chiefly, not exclusively, one of phonetics we are reminded of the
                                  > Gaelic pronunciation of the name Buadhaigh as 'Bwig';the last 'ig'
                                  > pronounced (in Munster at any rate) as in 'fig').
                                  >
                                  > To those ears unaccustomed to Irish, who were recording and
                                  > transforming Gaelic names, this would have sounded like 'Bowee' and
                                  > written as 'Bowe'. It may well be that the final 's' as in Bowes
                                  > arrived only during the period of Anglicisation, mostly 16/17th
                                  > Century. Recorded either as suggestive of a perosn belonging to the
                                  > Bowe family, as in 'he/she is one the Bowe's', alternatively it may
                                  > be that, as was often the case the recorded simply imposed that name
                                  > upon a family, or individual, for purposes of demographic accounting.
                                  >
                                  > My own name has undergone a number of variations in the official
                                  > record, currently it's Bowe, yet my great-Grandfather is recorded as
                                  > Bowes, his grand-Father is noted as Bowe. I am tempted to conclude
                                  > that perhaps originally, during the time of the Corca Laidhe, there
                                  > was just Ua Buadhach, which evolved into Buaig, Buadhaig, Buadhaigh,
                                  > Bogue, Bowe, Bwee, Boye, Boe, and Boey.
                                  >
                                  > There seems to be a phonetic evolutionary flow to these variants,
                                  > when we add 'Bowes' to the mix an incongrutuity is present.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers. Allen, or is that 'Ailin'?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "mhbowes11" <martha.bowes@ >
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I'm having fun following your conversation ...
                                  > >
                                  > > Here's a different angle on Baothghalach from Webster's online
                                  > dictionary:
                                  > >
                                  > > Gaelic- baoth- foolish, stupid, unwise
                                  > >
                                  > > [http://www.websters -online-dictiona ry.org/translati on/Gaelic/ baoth]
                                  > >
                                  > > Easy to see that these traits could well lead one into danger, but
                                  > still not so clear how
                                  > > Bowes got to be mentioned as an anglicization of it.
                                  > >
                                  > > Martha
                                  > >
                                  >



                                • mhbowes11
                                  ... Funny that your line is mostly Bowe with a Bowes thrown in, while mine is Bowes with a Bowe thrown in. My earliest known ancestor is Michael Bowe on his
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Feb 7, 2009
                                    --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@...> wrote:

                                    > My own name has undergone a number of variations in the official
                                    > record, currently it's Bowe, yet my great-Grandfather is recorded as
                                    > Bowes, his grand-Father is noted as Bowe. I am tempted to conclude
                                    > that perhaps originally, during the time of the Corca Laidhe, there
                                    > was just Ua Buadhach, which evolved into Buaig, Buadhaig, Buadhaigh,
                                    > Bogue, Bowe, Bwee, Boye, Boe, and Boey.
                                    >
                                    Funny that your line is mostly Bowe with a Bowes thrown in, while mine is Bowes with a
                                    Bowe thrown in. My earliest known ancestor is Michael Bowe on his marriage record
                                    (1800). I don't have birth recs for any children, but they all used the name Bowes in the
                                    US. They settled in central New York where there was a John Bowe whom they said was
                                    accustomed. I wonder if they used the Anglo-Saxon custom of "s" for "son of", perhaps
                                    later and in their time thought of as an English custom (??), and added the "s" when they
                                    emigrated since they had left their father in Ireland (he came over later). That's the only
                                    explanation I can think of for why this one group of kids added the "s."

                                    > There seems to be a phonetic evolutionary flow to these variants,
                                    > when we add 'Bowes' to the mix an incongrutuity is present.
                                    >
                                    This is so true. I wouldn't be surprised if only Bowe has truly been an anglicization (for
                                    some lineage(s)) of a Gaelic beginning, while Bowes, having later become a variant of
                                    Bowe is just tagging along for the ride. This still means some Irish Bowes could have
                                    Gaelic roots, just that when it comes to surname origin, the "s" may not have ever
                                    derived directly from O'Buadhaigh.

                                    I got Woulfe's 1923 Ed. of Irish Names and Surnames from interlibrary loan today. (The
                                    prior we were looking at was, I think 1906.) This time he adds Boag as a variant of
                                    Bogue, and Bohig as another anglicization of O'Buadhaigh. He also clarifies for Bowes
                                    from O'Buadhaigh - in contrast to my theory above - that it is "Usual form, including
                                    places to which other forms are assigned. There are in this case two or more names or
                                    surnames similarly anglicised in the same locality." Then, for Bowes from
                                    O'Baothghalaigh, rather than saying it occurs in "some parts of Ireland," he states "some
                                    parts of Ulster." Later, in the list of Irish to English surnames, he lists:

                                    "O'Baotghalaigh - I - Bohill, (Bowes); 'son of Baothghalach' (foolhardy). The head of this
                                    family is mentioned by O'Dugan as one of the chiefs of Clan Fergus in Ulster. I have
                                    failed to discover any early angl. form of the surname, and am by no means certain that
                                    it is still extant. There was also a family surnamed O'Baothgail or O'Baothghaile in the
                                    parish of Skreen, Co. Sligo, but that too seems to have disappeared."

                                    and

                                    "O'Buadhaigh - I - O Boey, O Bowe, O Boye, O Bwoy, O Bowige, Bowie, Bowe, Buie, Bwee,
                                    Bowes, Boyes, Boyce, O'Boyce, Bohig, Bogue, &c.; 'des. of Buadach' (victorious)'; a very
                                    scattered surname, but most common in Donegal, Kilkenny and Cork. In the last-
                                    mentioned county, the final g is sounded; hence the early angl. form O Bowige and the
                                    modern Bogue. The family is a branch of the Corca Laoighdhe, but was erroneously
                                    supposed to be a branch of the O'Sullivans [this must be what MacLysaght referred to
                                    alongside O'Donovan saying they considered themselves a branch of Sullivan], on account
                                    of the prevalence of the Christian name Buadach and that family; and it is not improbable
                                    that some of them have adopted the name of O'Sullivan or Sullivan."

                                    The thinking here would be that O'Keeffe, Parish priest and Poet of Doneraile, North
                                    Cork, who wrote the Book of Munster, erroneously included the belief among at least
                                    some in "the family" that they were a Sullivan branch when he wrote:

                                    "Maolodhar son of Sealbach had five sons: Ealathach, from whom the Mac Ealathaigh
                                    family; Buadhach, from whom the Ui Buadaigh (O'Bogue)...and Croinin, from whom the Ui
                                    Chroinin family (O'Cronin)."

                                    But the question remains where Woulfe gets his certainty that the family's word was
                                    wrong and they were Corca Laoighdhe. Perhaps he just believes they sought the glamour
                                    of relationship with the O'Sullivans, certainly a possibility, but it's odd that out of the
                                    various Buadhachs in the Sullivan line, one in particular is attributed to Ui Buadaigh; i.e.,
                                    the beginning of a clan. How would the determination of which Buadhach the
                                    O'Buadhaigh "line" came from have been made? I also read that Cronin was Corca
                                    Laoighdhe, and yet they also appear in The Book of Munster as related in the same
                                    location. Strange.

                                    I have no clear answers but enjoy reporting, Martha




                                    > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <martha.bowes@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > I'm having fun following your conversation ...
                                    > >
                                    > > Here's a different angle on Baothghalach from Webster's online
                                    > dictionary:
                                    > >
                                    > > Gaelic- baoth- foolish, stupid, unwise
                                    > >
                                    > > [http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/translation/Gaelic/baoth%5d
                                    > >
                                    > > Easy to see that these traits could well lead one into danger, but
                                    > still not so clear how
                                    > > Bowes got to be mentioned as an anglicization of it.
                                    > >
                                    > > Martha
                                    > >
                                    >
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