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Re: Bogue

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  • mhbowes11
    ... on the probable linkage between Boggs and Bogas , it would appear to be an English- based surname with Saxon origins. To flesh this out a bit, I got
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 13, 2009
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      --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...> wrote:
      >
      > This person appeared on the radar following a line of research I was taking. I advised
      on the probable linkage between 'Boggs' and 'Bogas', it would appear to be an English-
      based surname with Saxon origins.

      To flesh this out a bit, I got this contribution from an anonymous emailer:

      "Take a peek at the distribution of the Boggs name in England and
      notes its area of highest occurance coincides with North
      Yorkshire/County Durham, the English heartland of the 'Bowes' name.

      http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Boggs-family-history-uk.ashx

      This tends to support the view that both the English version of
      Bowes, and Boggs, have a probable origin in Bogas, springing from a
      Saxon/Danish beginning."

      Of course that's just sharing origin when surnames came into use, and does not mean
      relatedness between these names.

      > I am doubtful at connecting Boggs with either Bogue or Bogues, both as you know are
      firmly derived from Gaelic roots and a variant of Buadhaigh.

      I don't think I get your reasoning here. Bogue and Bogues are only derived from Gaelic
      and/or O'Buadhaigh roots if that is a particular lineage's history (e.g. the Bogue in the
      Boggs project in I1c haplogroup). It's possible for a lineage to get the Bogue or Bogues
      surname some other way, so I tend to keep an open mind on that. We also have no proof
      of the O'Buadaigh connection for Gaelic Bogues, just a statement in a very old text that
      there is one. That's why the DNA project is so important, to help prove (or disprove) the
      Book of Munster.

      All but three Boggs participants in the Boggs project were originally Livingstons in their
      family history. It is the three (themselves related, R1b) who match the YSearch R1b Bogue,
      so if that Bogue is related to them (I'm not sure at the moment how many markers he
      has), it could be Gaelic/O'Buadhaigh Bogue with a Boggs variant. No?


      >
      > --- On Mon, 12/1/09, mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
      > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Bogue
      > To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, 12 January, 2009, 3:38 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I was contacted by the administrator of the Boggs surname project. He also has
      included
      > Bogue and Bogues as a phonetic variant in his project. He reports:
      >
      > "I have have one Bogue who is a I1c but he does not seem to match the Boggs's. On Y-
      > Search, I found one Jesse Bogue that matches a Boggs group that descends from a
      James L
      > Boggs (1752-183?) that is R1B. This I1c Bogue has a very old genealogy."
      >
      > So here we have a Bogue (I1c) who is clearly not Gaelic, not from O'Buadhaigh in The
      Book
      > of Munster genealogies. He also does not match our I1 participants. But there is another
      > Bogue (R1b) who matches a Boggs Iine. Should this R1b turn out to be a Gaelic subclade
      > from southwest Ireland, then I suppose we can't dismiss relatedness between someone
      in
      > our group and someone named Boggs, if Boggs has been a variant of Bogue, and Bogue
      and
      > Bowes turn out to have a connected Gaelic lineage.
      >
      > The Boggs administrator is encouraging the I1c Bogue to join our project (for the
      record),
      > and I will encourage him to do a subclade test on the Boggs R1b that matches the
      YSearch
      > Bogue R1b.
      >
      > There's nothing concrete to surmise here, just a possibility to keep in mind.
      >
    • Jeff
      Communication failure on my part. I was referring, not to genetic lineages, but to the names themselves, which do reveal distinctions in terms of origins,
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 13, 2009
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        Communication failure on my part. I was referring, not to genetic
        lineages, but to the names themselves, which do reveal distinctions
        in terms of origins, albeit only back to a certain time frame. I do
        not consider that as a general rule Boggs has evolved from Bogue or
        Bogues, as a recorded error perhaps. My view is that Boggs has its
        beginnings in the original Old English/Saxon name 'Bogas',
        phonetically they are rather similar too. The map was cited simply to
        draw attention to the geographic reality that both the Boggs/Bowes
        names have their highest concentrations in the same region of
        England. An area which came under significant Saxon and later Danish
        influence, as evidenced by the profusion of Germanic place-names, is
        it unlikely therefore that family, personal and surnames long
        associated with those areas have Old English/Saxon roots?

        Of course it is entirely possible that a person may well have
        received the name Boggs in a manner unrelated to any connection with
        those areas, but in terms of probability, we must recognise that
        prior to the 19th Century Industrial Revolution in Britain most
        populations were rather static. This meant names originated and
        became associated with certain regions over hundreds of years. Boggs
        and Bowes being classic examples.

        As to 'Bogue' I think we recall that this is a phoentic rendition of
        Buadhaigh, in this case specific to County Cork, as Buadhaigh would
        have sounded something like 'Boowig' (softly pronounced 'g') it is
        easy to see how it would have been rendered and written as Bogue. The
        same applies of course to 'Bowe' to, on-the-other-hand 'Bowes' may
        well have been an Anglicised understanding of belonging to the Bowe
        family or sept, as in O'Bowe or 'O Buadhaigh'. The final 's' may well
        have been added to suggest being 'the son of', as in the English
        tradition, bearing in mind of course that the Anglicisation of Gaelic
        names was conducted by mostly non-Irish speakers.

        That process as we know was conducted many many centuries after the
        supposed events recorded in the various Annals, so the various forms
        of Buadhaigh, distinct as they were to a number of regions in
        Ireland, which emerged, inluding Bogue and Bogues have a complex and
        challenging relationship to the Book of Munster.
      • mhbowes11
        I like they way you cover general rules so well and I intervene with pesky exceptions ... that way we can t possibly leave anything out ;-) I find interesting
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 18, 2009
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          I like they way you cover general rules so well and I intervene with pesky exceptions ...
          that way we can't possibly leave anything out ;-)

          I find interesting results for Bogue at http://www.ancestry.com/facts/Bogue-family-
          history-uk.ashx .

          --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
          >
          > Communication failure on my part. I was referring, not to genetic
          > lineages, but to the names themselves, which do reveal distinctions
          > in terms of origins, albeit only back to a certain time frame. I do
          > not consider that as a general rule Boggs has evolved from Bogue or
          > Bogues, as a recorded error perhaps. My view is that Boggs has its
          > beginnings in the original Old English/Saxon name 'Bogas',
          > phonetically they are rather similar too. The map was cited simply to
          > draw attention to the geographic reality that both the Boggs/Bowes
          > names have their highest concentrations in the same region of
          > England. An area which came under significant Saxon and later Danish
          > influence, as evidenced by the profusion of Germanic place-names, is
          > it unlikely therefore that family, personal and surnames long
          > associated with those areas have Old English/Saxon roots?
          >
          > Of course it is entirely possible that a person may well have
          > received the name Boggs in a manner unrelated to any connection with
          > those areas, but in terms of probability, we must recognise that
          > prior to the 19th Century Industrial Revolution in Britain most
          > populations were rather static. This meant names originated and
          > became associated with certain regions over hundreds of years. Boggs
          > and Bowes being classic examples.
          >
          > As to 'Bogue' I think we recall that this is a phoentic rendition of
          > Buadhaigh, in this case specific to County Cork, as Buadhaigh would
          > have sounded something like 'Boowig' (softly pronounced 'g') it is
          > easy to see how it would have been rendered and written as Bogue. The
          > same applies of course to 'Bowe' to, on-the-other-hand 'Bowes' may
          > well have been an Anglicised understanding of belonging to the Bowe
          > family or sept, as in O'Bowe or 'O Buadhaigh'. The final 's' may well
          > have been added to suggest being 'the son of', as in the English
          > tradition, bearing in mind of course that the Anglicisation of Gaelic
          > names was conducted by mostly non-Irish speakers.
          >
          > That process as we know was conducted many many centuries after the
          > supposed events recorded in the various Annals, so the various forms
          > of Buadhaigh, distinct as they were to a number of regions in
          > Ireland, which emerged, inluding Bogue and Bogues have a complex and
          > challenging relationship to the Book of Munster.
          >
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