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From Buadhaigh to Bowes

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  • Jeff
    There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and official, held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly Dublin or Belfast has some
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 6, 2009
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      There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and official,
      held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly Dublin or
      Belfast has some too. Mostly used by academics I imagine.

      As to the name change from Buadhaigh to Bowe, Bowes, Boyce (possibly)
      Bow and Bogue the Anglicisation of Irish names took place most
      vigorously in the 16/17th Century. Bearing in mind there may already
      have by that time been 'Bowes' from England or Scotland
      having 'settled' in Ireland, and Gaelic-Bowes would have adopted or
      been recorded with more English sounding variants by that time.

      16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe

      O Boey 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
      O Bowe 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
      O Boye 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
      O Bwoy 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
      O Bowige 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)

      As you know there are other variations, these however in my view
      appear most relevant to Bowe and Bowes.

      Postscript: the name O'Buadhaigh does appear in an early 15th Century
      source, The Book of Lecan, thus taking the name back in Ireland to
      some antiquity, and suggesting even older beginnings
    • mhbowes11
      ... that time. ... I found this context helpful. It s useful for understanding more historical uses of variant spellings than what we d mostly find in
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 6, 2009
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        >Bowes would have adopted or been recorded with more English sounding variants by >
        that time.
        >

        I found this context helpful. It's useful for understanding more historical uses of variant
        spellings than what we'd mostly find in existence today, but explains why so many
        variants can be found in articles about it. Those more anachronistic spellings may actually
        surface on rare occasion in some parts of Ireland.

        From http://medievalscotland.org/kmo/Woulfe/

        The Term Anglicized Irish

        The term Anglicized Irish is generally used to refer to Irish Gaelic words (in this case,
        names) rendered in a phonetic or pseudo-phonetic form in historical documents written
        by an English speaker. The English-speaking scribe applied the spelling rules he was
        familiar with to the pronunciation of the Gaelic words (in many cases, names of people and
        locations) he needed to record as part of the document he was creating. Since Gaelic and
        English have different pronunciation rules, the spellings of Anglicized Irish names normally
        differ fairly dramatically from their Gaelic counterparts.

        In the 16th and 17th centuries, Anglicized Irish forms of a particular name would often
        vary quite a bit. Today, Anglicized Irish forms survive in English forms of Irish names that
        are familar to English speakers today, such as O'Brien, McClean, Keaveney, Kennedy, etc.
        Modernly, there are often fewer variant spellings in English for an Irish name than there
        were in the 16th and 17th centuries.

        The modern reader should be aware that the patterns of spellings seen in English
        spellings of Irish names today do not necessarily match those seen in the 16th and 17th
        centuries. The pronunciation rules of English today differ in a number of ways from those
        seen in English in the Tudor, Elizabethan, and Stuart eras.

        Additionally, "fanciful" spellings are the fashion today. While 16th and 17th century
        Anglicized Irish spellings may appear fanciful to the modern reader, they in fact often
        follow normal English pronunciation of that era. As a result, we need to leave most of our
        modern spelling preconceptions at the door when we examine the forms seen in this data
        and simply let the data illustrate what patterns do and do not exist within these examples.
      • bowe_f
        The Records Offices at Kew , are situated in one of Londons most beutiful areas,and attached to Kew Gardens , I am often there.I will visit when nextin London,
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 8, 2009
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          The Records Offices at Kew , are situated in one of Londons most
          beutiful areas,and attached to Kew Gardens , I am often there.I will
          visit when nextin London, won't anticipate finding any records of Bowe
          O'Buadaigh, though
          --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
          >
          > There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and official,
          > held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly Dublin or
          > Belfast has some too. Mostly used by academics I imagine.
          >
          > As to the name change from Buadhaigh to Bowe, Bowes, Boyce (possibly)
          > Bow and Bogue the Anglicisation of Irish names took place most
          > vigorously in the 16/17th Century. Bearing in mind there may already
          > have by that time been 'Bowes' from England or Scotland
          > having 'settled' in Ireland, and Gaelic-Bowes would have adopted or
          > been recorded with more English sounding variants by that time.
          >
          > 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
          >
          > O Boey 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
          > O Bowe 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
          > O Boye 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
          > O Bwoy 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
          > O Bowige 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
          >
          > As you know there are other variations, these however in my view
          > appear most relevant to Bowe and Bowes.
          >
          > Postscript: the name O'Buadhaigh does appear in an early 15th Century
          > source, The Book of Lecan, thus taking the name back in Ireland to
          > some antiquity, and suggesting even older beginnings
          >
        • mhbowes11
          It ll be interesting to see if you dig anything up. Hopefully there are some good librarians to help. Checking this site out before you go might help focus
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 8, 2009
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            It'll be interesting to see if you dig anything up. Hopefully there are some good librarians
            to help. Checking this site out before you go might help focus your search ahead of time: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/familyhistory/?homepage=research

            --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowe_f" <bowe_f@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > The Records Offices at Kew , are situated in one of Londons most
            > beutiful areas,and attached to Kew Gardens , I am often there.I will
            > visit when nextin London, won't anticipate finding any records of Bowe
            > O'Buadaigh, though
            > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@> wrote:
            > >
            > > There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and official,
            > > held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly Dublin or
            > > Belfast has some too. Mostly used by academics I imagine.
            > >
            > > As to the name change from Buadhaigh to Bowe, Bowes, Boyce (possibly)
            > > Bow and Bogue the Anglicisation of Irish names took place most
            > > vigorously in the 16/17th Century. Bearing in mind there may already
            > > have by that time been 'Bowes' from England or Scotland
            > > having 'settled' in Ireland, and Gaelic-Bowes would have adopted or
            > > been recorded with more English sounding variants by that time.
            > >
            > > 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
            > >
            > > O Boey 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
            > > O Bowe 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
            > > O Boye 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
            > > O Bwoy 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
            > > O Bowige 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
            > >
            > > As you know there are other variations, these however in my view
            > > appear most relevant to Bowe and Bowes.
            > >
            > > Postscript: the name O'Buadhaigh does appear in an early 15th Century
            > > source, The Book of Lecan, thus taking the name back in Ireland to
            > > some antiquity, and suggesting even older beginnings
            > >
            >
          • Allen Bowes
            You may locate documents on Bowe and Bowes in some measure as they are both English names with long associations with Cumbria, Lancashire, North
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 9, 2009
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              You may locate documents on 'Bowe' and 'Bowes' in some measure as they are both 'English' names with long associations with Cumbria, Lancashire, North Yorkshire and County Durham respectively. 'O'Buadhaigh' will be a tougher challenge.

              --- On Fri, 9/1/09, bowe_f <bowe_f@...> wrote:
              From: bowe_f <bowe_f@...>
              Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: From Buadhaigh to Bowes
              To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Friday, 9 January, 2009, 12:19 AM


              The Records Offices at Kew , are situated in one of Londons most
              beutiful areas,and attached to Kew Gardens , I am often there.I will
              visit when nextin London, won't anticipate finding any records of Bowe
              O'Buadaigh, though
              --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and official,
              > held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly Dublin or
              > Belfast has some too. Mostly used by academics I imagine.
              >
              > As to the name change from Buadhaigh to Bowe, Bowes, Boyce (possibly)
              > Bow and Bogue the Anglicisation of Irish names took place most
              > vigorously in the 16/17th Century. Bearing in mind there may already
              > have by that time been 'Bowes' from England or Scotland
              > having 'settled' in Ireland, and Gaelic-Bowes would have adopted or
              > been recorded with more English sounding variants by that time.
              >
              > 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
              >
              > O Boey 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
              > O Bowe 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
              > O Boye 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
              > O Bwoy 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
              > O Bowige 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
              >
              > As you know there are other variations, these however in my view
              > appear most relevant to Bowe and Bowes.
              >
              > Postscript: the name O'Buadhaigh does appear in an early 15th Century
              > source, The Book of Lecan, thus taking the name back in Ireland to
              > some antiquity, and suggesting even older beginnings
              >


            • Jeff
              Just a thought if you do make it to Kew, a search within the area of Elizabethan and later Plantations in Ireland would perhaps yield some very useful
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 9, 2009
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                Just a thought if you do make it to Kew, a search within the area of
                Elizabethan and later Plantations in Ireland would perhaps yield some
                very useful material, particularly if focused upon County Wexford and
                Kilkenny, as these are regions with a long connection and prevelance
                of the 'Bowe' surname. Good luck..


                --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowe_f" <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > The Records Offices at Kew , are situated in one of Londons most
                > beutiful areas,and attached to Kew Gardens , I am often there.I will
                > visit when nextin London, won't anticipate finding any records of
                Bowe
                > O'Buadaigh, though
                > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                > >
                > > There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and
                official,
                > > held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly
                Dublin or
                > > Belfast has some too. Mostly used by academics I imagine.
                > >
                > > As to the name change from Buadhaigh to Bowe, Bowes, Boyce
                (possibly)
                > > Bow and Bogue the Anglicisation of Irish names took place most
                > > vigorously in the 16/17th Century. Bearing in mind there may
                already
                > > have by that time been 'Bowes' from England or Scotland
                > > having 'settled' in Ireland, and Gaelic-Bowes would have adopted
                or
                > > been recorded with more English sounding variants by that time.
                > >
                > > 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
                > >
                > > O Boey 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                > > O Bowe 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                > > O Boye 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                > > O Bwoy 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                > > O Bowige 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                > >
                > > As you know there are other variations, these however in my view
                > > appear most relevant to Bowe and Bowes.
                > >
                > > Postscript: the name O'Buadhaigh does appear in an early 15th
                Century
                > > source, The Book of Lecan, thus taking the name back in Ireland to
                > > some antiquity, and suggesting even older beginnings
                > >
                >
              • Frank Bowe
                .Hi Jeff, Nice to make contact,I have contacted the Bowes of Wexford , Kilkenny . Tipperary , and Offaly [Awfly],to inveigle them to join, but to no avail..My
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 9, 2009
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                  .Hi Jeff, Nice to make contact,I have contacted the Bowes of Wexford , Kilkenny .
                  Tipperary , and Offaly [Awfly],to inveigle them to join, but to no avail..My family are in Waterford , mostly in the Butchering /Livestock trades, inthe past.Lived by exporting to England ,Invariably , Parnellite and Redmondites. Very prolific , 17 in my family , otherd with 11 and my younger brother 15, a gene of Nile of the Nine hostages.
                  Cheers for now. Where are you living ?
                  Frank Bowe


                  From: Jeff <bowes2000@...>
                  To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 9:43:23
                  Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: From Buadhaigh to Bowes

                  Just a thought if you do make it to Kew, a search within the area of
                  Elizabethan and later Plantations in Ireland would perhaps yield some
                  very useful material, particularly if focused upon County Wexford and
                  Kilkenny, as these are regions with a long connection and prevelance
                  of the 'Bowe' surname. Good luck..

                  --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "bowe_f" <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > The Records Offices at Kew , are situated in one of Londons most
                  > beutiful areas,and attached to Kew Gardens , I am often there.I will
                  > visit when nextin London, won't anticipate finding any records of
                  Bowe
                  > O'Buadaigh, though
                  > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and
                  official,
                  > > held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly
                  Dublin or
                  > > Belfast has some too. Mostly used by academics I imagine.
                  > >
                  > > As to the name change from Buadhaigh to Bowe, Bowes, Boyce
                  (possibly)
                  > > Bow and Bogue the Anglicisation of Irish names took place most
                  > > vigorously in the 16/17th Century. Bearing in mind there may
                  already
                  > > have by that time been 'Bowes' from England or Scotland
                  > > having 'settled' in Ireland, and Gaelic-Bowes would have adopted
                  or
                  > > been recorded with more English sounding variants by that time.
                  > >
                  > > 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
                  > >
                  > > O Boey 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                  > > O Bowe 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                  > > O Boye 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                  > > O Bwoy 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                  > > O Bowige 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                  > >
                  > > As you know there are other variations, these however in my view
                  > > appear most relevant to Bowe and Bowes.
                  > >
                  > > Postscript: the name O'Buadhaigh does appear in an early 15th
                  Century
                  > > source, The Book of Lecan, thus taking the name back in Ireland to
                  > > some antiquity, and suggesting even older beginnings
                  > >
                  >


                • Jeff
                  Hi Frank, good to hear from you, for the time being I am in Exeter.--- ... Wexford , Kilkenny . ... avail..My family are in Waterford , mostly in the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 9, 2009
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                    Hi Frank, good to hear from you, for the time being I am in Exeter.---
                    In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > .Hi Jeff, Nice to make contact,I have contacted the Bowes of
                    Wexford , Kilkenny .
                    > Tipperary , and Offaly [Awfly],to inveigle them to join, but to no
                    avail..My family are in Waterford , mostly in the
                    Butchering /Livestock trades, inthe past.Lived by exporting to
                    England ,Invariably , Parnellite and Redmondites. Very prolific , 17
                    in my family , otherd with 11 and my younger brother 15, a gene of
                    Nile of the Nine hostages.
                    > Cheers for now. Where are you living ?
                    > Frank Bowe
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: Jeff <bowes2000@...>
                    > To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 9:43:23
                    > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: From Buadhaigh to Bowes
                    >
                    >
                    > Just a thought if you do make it to Kew, a search within the area
                    of
                    > Elizabethan and later Plantations in Ireland would perhaps yield
                    some
                    > very useful material, particularly if focused upon County Wexford
                    and
                    > Kilkenny, as these are regions with a long connection and
                    prevelance
                    > of the 'Bowe' surname. Good luck..
                    >
                    > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "bowe_f" <bowe_f@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The Records Offices at Kew , are situated in one of Londons most
                    > > beutiful areas,and attached to Kew Gardens , I am often there.I
                    will
                    > > visit when nextin London, won't anticipate finding any records of
                    > Bowe
                    > > O'Buadaigh, though
                    > > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@>
                    wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and
                    > official,
                    > > > held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly
                    > Dublin or
                    > > > Belfast has some too. Mostly used by academics I imagine.
                    > > >
                    > > > As to the name change from Buadhaigh to Bowe, Bowes, Boyce
                    > (possibly)
                    > > > Bow and Bogue the Anglicisation of Irish names took place most
                    > > > vigorously in the 16/17th Century. Bearing in mind there may
                    > already
                    > > > have by that time been 'Bowes' from England or Scotland
                    > > > having 'settled' in Ireland, and Gaelic-Bowes would have
                    adopted
                    > or
                    > > > been recorded with more English sounding variants by that time.
                    > > >
                    > > > 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
                    > > >
                    > > > O Boey 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                    > > > O Bowe 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                    > > > O Boye 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                    > > > O Bwoy 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                    > > > O Bowige 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                    > > >
                    > > > As you know there are other variations, these however in my view
                    > > > appear most relevant to Bowe and Bowes.
                    > > >
                    > > > Postscript: the name O'Buadhaigh does appear in an early 15th
                    > Century
                    > > > source, The Book of Lecan, thus taking the name back in Ireland
                    to
                    > > > some antiquity, and suggesting even older beginnings
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • mhbowes11
                    ... How does your younger brother relate to Niall of the Nine Hostages? Oh, maybe you mean Niall was prolific like your family, as opposed to actually your
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 9, 2009
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                      --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >and my younger brother 15, a gene of Nile of the Nine hostages.

                      How does your younger brother relate to Niall of the Nine Hostages? Oh, maybe you mean
                      Niall was prolific like your family, as opposed to actually your family having a DNA test that
                      shows a true Niall connection. Just making that one clear since we do DNA research here too
                      and it's possible to match Niall now that they know his markers..
                    • mhbowes11
                      Hi Jeff! I so enjoy your determination in the face of complexity! Thanks for posting it here. I had to read several times to wrap my brain around it, but I get
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 5, 2010
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                        Hi Jeff! I so enjoy your determination in the face of complexity! Thanks for posting it here. I had to read several times to wrap my brain around it, but I get it. Can I paste this to your subgroup page at the new website: http://www.bowesonenamestudy.com/dna_project_pages/participants/haplogroup_r1b/r1b1b/ireland_tipperary_-_bowess/ I have been working to get info about the lines on all the subgroup pages. Some detail about your Tipperary ancestors and where they went would be god there too. I've been keeping participants' personal details out of those pages, unless they want their email included for visitors to contact them.

                        Also check out this subgroup page (my father is in this group) which also posits a hypothesis for relatedness to O'Buadhaigh: http://www.bowesonenamestudy.com/dna_project_pages/participants/haplogroup_i/i1/i1_group_3/ Note the bold type under "Discussion." I would paste this to your page showing your research with a mirror link back to this one.

                        One thing is clear. We need to try to get some Bogues from the Cork area to test. A match from any of our project lines to theirs would seem significant, since both surnames are supposed to be anglicizations of O'Buadhaigh. None of the participants in the Bogue surname study, or ours, are from the Cork area. Same scene with the Cronin surname, although they may already have some Cork Cronins represented in the Cronin study. I have a devil of a time getting people to participate when I "solicit" (gently speaking) their interest. More often than not, new participants join completely out of the blue to me.

                        Cheers, Martha

                        --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > How are you Frank?
                        > All the best for 2010
                        >
                        > The quest continues as to my own 'Bowe' origins/location. At this stage I'm coming to consider the Corca Laidhe connection relevant to my own folks, my DYS values were very kindly examined by Jim Cullen, who knows his genetic onions. He concludes that these suggest R1bSTR26 (S28/U152) linked to the continental Celts. Interestingly on the FTDNA site my ancestral origins have the following as highest percentages; Ireland 3.4 Switzerland 3.0, Scotland 2.2 and Wales 2.1 (with the value of 2 being significant and 4 highly significant in terms of family origins).
                        >
                        > Accoring to Jim Cullen's analysis using a Haplotype predictor and John McEwan's Modal database, my DYS markers point to Irish/Scottish subclades, indeed my particular values are very close to the Colla Uais modal haplotype. Given the connection of Colla Uais with the Ulaid/Dal Riata it got me looking into wider associations relating to the Dáirinne, later to be known as the Corca Laiodhe. The Dárinne are reported to have derived from the Darini of Ptolemy, and significantly for my research, been related to the Ulaid and Dál Riata of Ulster and Scotland. So there appears to be an Erainn connection running through the picture, and considering the association of the Ua Buadhaigh sept with West Cork and the Corca Laiodhe, my Irish/Scotish DYS values make sense, if viewed through an understanding that they may well reflect Erainn/Dáirinne origins.
                        >
                        > Curiously, I also came across one of the O'Driscolls' set of DYS values at YSearch, some of whom are close to my own, one even having the same double reloc value of 36 at CDYa/b. A common and possibly significant feature appears to be the value of 10 at DYS391, this is common to Scottish and some Irish, and I'm now wondering if this may be some Erainn indicator. Whatever the case, the O'Driscoll's are a prominent and historic Corca Laiodhe family, whose territory included the location of the Ua Buadhaigh (around the Castlehaven area). Families called O'Bowe were, later in history, recorded in Fermoy too, not too far from south west Tipperary where my own ancestors appear.
                        >
                        > If this speculation, reasoning and connectivity is sound it may well be that genetic evidence, in support of some of the Irish Bowe/Bowes/Bogue families, may be assembled that indicates such individuals have their beginnings with the Erainn/Corca Laiodhe.
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > .Hi Jeff, Nice to make contact,I have contacted the Bowes of Wexford , Kilkenny .
                        > > Tipperary , and Offaly [Awfly],to inveigle them to join, but to no avail..My family are in Waterford , mostly in the Butchering /Livestock trades, inthe past.Lived by exporting to England ,Invariably , Parnellite and Redmondites. Very prolific , 17 in my family , otherd with 11 and my younger brother 15, a gene of Nile of the Nine hostages.
                        > > Cheers for now. Where are you living ?
                        > > Frank Bowe
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > From: Jeff <bowes2000@>
                        > > To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 9:43:23
                        > > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: From Buadhaigh to Bowes
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Just a thought if you do make it to Kew, a search within the area of
                        > > Elizabethan and later Plantations in Ireland would perhaps yield some
                        > > very useful material, particularly if focused upon County Wexford and
                        > > Kilkenny, as these are regions with a long connection and prevelance
                        > > of the 'Bowe' surname. Good luck..
                        > >
                        > > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "bowe_f" <bowe_f@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > The Records Offices at Kew , are situated in one of Londons most
                        > > > beutiful areas,and attached to Kew Gardens , I am often there.I will
                        > > > visit when nextin London, won't anticipate finding any records of
                        > > Bowe
                        > > > O'Buadaigh, though
                        > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and
                        > > official,
                        > > > > held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly
                        > > Dublin or
                        > > > > Belfast has some too. Mostly used by academics I imagine.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > As to the name change from Buadhaigh to Bowe, Bowes, Boyce
                        > > (possibly)
                        > > > > Bow and Bogue the Anglicisation of Irish names took place most
                        > > > > vigorously in the 16/17th Century. Bearing in mind there may
                        > > already
                        > > > > have by that time been 'Bowes' from England or Scotland
                        > > > > having 'settled' in Ireland, and Gaelic-Bowes would have adopted
                        > > or
                        > > > > been recorded with more English sounding variants by that time.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
                        > > > >
                        > > > > O Boey 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                        > > > > O Bowe 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                        > > > > O Boye 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                        > > > > O Bwoy 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                        > > > > O Bowige 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > As you know there are other variations, these however in my view
                        > > > > appear most relevant to Bowe and Bowes.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Postscript: the name O'Buadhaigh does appear in an early 15th
                        > > Century
                        > > > > source, The Book of Lecan, thus taking the name back in Ireland to
                        > > > > some antiquity, and suggesting even older beginnings
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Allen Bowes
                        Martha, that s fine and appreciate  your confidentiality of personal details not appearing there, Best wishes, Jeff ... From: mhbowes11
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 5, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Martha, that's fine and appreciate  your confidentiality of personal details not appearing there, Best wishes, Jeff

                          --- On Tue, 5/1/10, mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...> wrote:

                          From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
                          Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: From Buadhaigh to Bowes
                          To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Tuesday, 5 January, 2010, 17:35

                           
                          Hi Jeff! I so enjoy your determination in the face of complexity! Thanks for posting it here. I had to read several times to wrap my brain around it, but I get it. Can I paste this to your subgroup page at the new website: http://www.bowesone namestudy. com/dna_project_ pages/participan ts/haplogroup_ r1b/r1b1b/ ireland_tipperar y_-_bowess/ I have been working to get info about the lines on all the subgroup pages. Some detail about your Tipperary ancestors and where they went would be god there too. I've been keeping participants' personal details out of those pages, unless they want their email included for visitors to contact them.

                          Also check out this subgroup page (my father is in this group) which also posits a hypothesis for relatedness to O'Buadhaigh: http://www.bowesone namestudy. com/dna_project_ pages/participan ts/haplogroup_ i/i1/i1_group_ 3/ Note the bold type under "Discussion. " I would paste this to your page showing your research with a mirror link back to this one.

                          One thing is clear. We need to try to get some Bogues from the Cork area to test. A match from any of our project lines to theirs would seem significant, since both surnames are supposed to be anglicizations of O'Buadhaigh. None of the participants in the Bogue surname study, or ours, are from the Cork area. Same scene with the Cronin surname, although they may already have some Cork Cronins represented in the Cronin study. I have a devil of a time getting people to participate when I "solicit" (gently speaking) their interest. More often than not, new participants join completely out of the blue to me.

                          Cheers, Martha

                          --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@. ..> wrote:
                          >
                          > How are you Frank?
                          > All the best for 2010
                          >
                          > The quest continues as to my own 'Bowe' origins/location. At this stage I'm coming to consider the Corca Laidhe connection relevant to my own folks, my DYS values were very kindly examined by Jim Cullen, who knows his genetic onions. He concludes that these suggest R1bSTR26 (S28/U152) linked to the continental Celts. Interestingly on the FTDNA site my ancestral origins have the following as highest percentages; Ireland 3.4 Switzerland 3.0, Scotland 2.2 and Wales 2.1 (with the value of 2 being significant and 4 highly significant in terms of family origins).
                          >
                          > Accoring to Jim Cullen's analysis using a Haplotype predictor and John McEwan's Modal database, my DYS markers point to Irish/Scottish subclades, indeed my particular values are very close to the Colla Uais modal haplotype. Given the connection of Colla Uais with the Ulaid/Dal Riata it got me looking into wider associations relating to the Dáirinne, later to be known as the Corca Laiodhe. The Dárinne are reported to have derived from the Darini of Ptolemy, and significantly for my research, been related to the Ulaid and Dál Riata of Ulster and Scotland. So there appears to be an Erainn connection running through the picture, and considering the association of the Ua Buadhaigh sept with West Cork and the Corca Laiodhe, my Irish/Scotish DYS values make sense, if viewed through an understanding that they may well reflect Erainn/Dáirinne origins.
                          >
                          > Curiously, I also came across one of the O'Driscolls' set of DYS values at YSearch, some of whom are close to my own, one even having the same double reloc value of 36 at CDYa/b. A common and possibly significant feature appears to be the value of 10 at DYS391, this is common to Scottish and some Irish, and I'm now wondering if this may be some Erainn indicator. Whatever the case, the O'Driscoll's are a prominent and historic Corca Laiodhe family, whose territory included the location of the Ua Buadhaigh (around the Castlehaven area). Families called O'Bowe were, later in history, recorded in Fermoy too, not too far from south west Tipperary where my own ancestors appear.
                          >
                          > If this speculation, reasoning and connectivity is sound it may well be that genetic evidence, in support of some of the Irish Bowe/Bowes/Bogue families, may be assembled that indicates such individuals have their beginnings with the Erainn/Corca Laiodhe.
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, Frank Bowe <bowe_f@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > .Hi Jeff, Nice to make contact,I have contacted the Bowes of Wexford , Kilkenny .
                          > > Tipperary , and Offaly [Awfly],to inveigle them to join, but to no avail..My family are in Waterford , mostly in the Butchering /Livestock trades, inthe past.Lived by exporting to England ,Invariably , Parnellite and Redmondites. Very prolific , 17 in my family , otherd with 11 and my younger brother 15, a gene of Nile of the Nine hostages.
                          > > Cheers for now. Where are you living ?
                          > > Frank Bowe
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ____________ _________ _________ __
                          > > From: Jeff <bowes2000@>
                          > > To: bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com
                          > > Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 9:43:23
                          > > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: From Buadhaigh to Bowes
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Just a thought if you do make it to Kew, a search within the area of
                          > > Elizabethan and later Plantations in Ireland would perhaps yield some
                          > > very useful material, particularly if focused upon County Wexford and
                          > > Kilkenny, as these are regions with a long connection and prevelance
                          > > of the 'Bowe' surname. Good luck..
                          > >
                          > > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "bowe_f" <bowe_f@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > The Records Offices at Kew , are situated in one of Londons most
                          > > > beutiful areas,and attached to Kew Gardens , I am often there.I will
                          > > > visit when nextin London, won't anticipate finding any records of
                          > > Bowe
                          > > > O'Buadaigh, though
                          > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@ yahoogroups. com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There are some records, but they are somewhat scattered and
                          > > official,
                          > > > > held in public records offices in Kew near London, possibly
                          > > Dublin or
                          > > > > Belfast has some too. Mostly used by academics I imagine.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > As to the name change from Buadhaigh to Bowe, Bowes, Boyce
                          > > (possibly)
                          > > > > Bow and Bogue the Anglicisation of Irish names took place most
                          > > > > vigorously in the 16/17th Century. Bearing in mind there may
                          > > already
                          > > > > have by that time been 'Bowes' from England or Scotland
                          > > > > having 'settled' in Ireland, and Gaelic-Bowes would have adopted
                          > > or
                          > > > > been recorded with more English sounding variants by that time.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > 16th & 17th Century Anglicized Irish Surnames from Woulfe
                          > > > >
                          > > > > O Boey 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                          > > > > O Bowe 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                          > > > > O Boye 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                          > > > > O Bwoy 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                          > > > > O Bowige 447 Ã" Buad.aig. (Ã" Buadhaigh)
                          > > > >
                          > > > > As you know there are other variations, these however in my view
                          > > > > appear most relevant to Bowe and Bowes.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Postscript: the name O'Buadhaigh does appear in an early 15th
                          > > Century
                          > > > > source, The Book of Lecan, thus taking the name back in Ireland to
                          > > > > some antiquity, and suggesting even older beginnings
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >


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