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Irish, Danish, or English?

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  • Jeff
    My current research proposes a number of possible explanatons as to the origins of the name Bowes in Ireland. Firstly the name itself, has I think two basic
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 27, 2008
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      My current research proposes a number of possible explanatons as to
      the origins of the name Bowes in Ireland. Firstly the name itself,
      has I think two basic origins:

      1). The name derives from the ancient Gaelic Sept, O'Buadhaigh

      Or

      2). The name is linked to the North Yorkshire English place-name
      Bowes, which derives from the Saxon/Danish word Bogas meaning 'bow'
      or 'bend'.

      If the name is indeed of 'English/Danish/Saxon' roots then when and
      how did it travel to Ireland?

      a) Possibly through the Norse/Danish incursions into Ireland during
      the 9th Century? Well not entirely satisfactory as Vikings tended in
      general to name their children after the Father, thus JorgenSON,
      HaroldSON etc. They did occasionaly choose 'nick' names or adopt
      place-names, but this was rarer. Besides, the Danes were amonsgt the
      last in Europe to use surnames, a time after the Viking period in
      Ireland.

      b) The name 'Bowes' could possibly have been adopted later by
      Scandinavian settlers

      c) The adding of an 'S' to a name was a widespread practice used by
      the Saxon-English to suggest 'son-of'. For example: RichardS EdwardS
      etc. Could BoweS have a similar origin? If the name has English roots
      at what stage did it move to Ireland?

      Well we can to some degree rule out the 12th Century Norman invasion
      of Ireland, the majority of whom were Norman and Welsh. Any English
      component of this incursion were made up of troops from the West
      Country of England, where the name 'Bowes' is not at all common.
      Besides at this time many ordinary people had not taken up the
      practice of distinct surnames.

      Where does that leave us? Well the name 'Bowes' would certainly have
      developed and been adopted more numerously by the 16th Century and
      one wonders if this was the period that heralded the arrival of the
      English name 'Bowes' to Ireland during the Elizabethan, Cromwellian
      and later plantations. Do we have any evidence to support this idea?
      Not specifically. However there is a fascinating clue in the
      prevalance of the Bowe/Bowes name in Counties Wexford and Kilkenny,
      both areas of particularly high English settlement from the Middle
      Ages onwards. With further DNA testing of Bowes from these areas it
      could be possible to detect Danish/Saxon haplogroups, which may well
      have arrived through English settlers.

      In conclusion we have two versions of the name, one Gaelic Irish, the
      other Old-English/Danish, revealing which one we belong to is of
      course a challenge being addressed by DNA testing.
    • mhbowes11
      ... ____ For the Yahoo! record, the origin of this is The Book of Munster, written in 1703 by Rev. Eugene O Keeffe, Parish priest and Poet of Doneraile, North
      Message 2 of 9 , Jan 1, 2009
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        --- In bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > My current research proposes a number of possible explanatons as to
        > the origins of the name Bowes in Ireland. Firstly the name itself,
        > has I think two basic origins:
        >
        > 1). The name derives from the ancient Gaelic Sept, O'Buadhaigh

        ____

        For the Yahoo! record, the origin of this is The Book of Munster, written in 1703 by Rev.
        Eugene O'Keeffe, Parish priest and Poet of Doneraile, North Cork. Within this book are the
        Eoghanacht Genealogies. Here you find:
        " Maolodhar son of Sealbach had five sons: Ealathach, from whom the Mac Ealathaigh
        family; Buadhach, from whom the Ui Buadaigh (O'Bogue); Cathalan, from whom Ui
        Chathalain Cahalane); Maoilin, from whom Ui Mhaoilin; and Croinin, from whom the Ui
        Chroinin family (O'Cronin)."
        Add to that MacLysaght, Edward, Surnames of Ireland, Dublin, 1985 indicated that the
        Irish surname Bowes is a synonym of Bogue, and thus it's been interpreted to mean that
        Bowes stems from Buadhach, son of Maolodhar. But it's interesting to note that the name
        Buadagh shows up multiple times in this genealogy (and they may all relate?). According
        to MacLysaght, Buadhach (buach) is a first name meaning "victorious." I am now realizing
        that a synonym doesn't equate to genetic connection. Bowes is synonymous with all
        Buadaghs, regardless of their ancient roots, since Bowes is the anglicization of the Gaelic
        word buadhagh for "victorious." So I think we have even less idea whether it's accurate to
        say that the Bowes surname in Ireland ever had its origin with the particular Buadhach,
        son of Maolodhar. On top of this, the Book of Munster was written approximately 1000
        years after Maolodhar's sons would have been born (calculating approximately 25 years
        per generation as does FTDNA and reading the rest of the text to factor in how many
        generations back were these births [we could double check this calculation]).
        I am racking my brain for where I first read about the Maolodhar connection. Can you
        think of a source for this? I may have drawn the wrong conclusion and then spread it
        myself. Yikes. I guess as long as we clear up our goofs that's the point of research.
        I think we should "zoom out" conceptually and say that anytime one of our project
        members matches another Irish surname, we should look for the two surnames
        originating in the same family in the ancient texts.
        I have posted the Eoghanacht Genealogies in Files > Research - Countries - Ireland
        _____


        >
        > Or
        >
        > 2). The name is linked to the North Yorkshire English place-name
        > Bowes, which derives from the Saxon/Danish word Bogas meaning 'bow'
        > or 'bend'.

        ____________

        I've also posted a new document "Possible Origins of Bowes Surname" in Files. These are
        clips from various websites that offer some additional possibilities.
        It does seem, judging by Bowes surname concentration maps that the surname for a
        majority of Bowes lineages originates in Yorkshire, now Durham. See Links > Research -
        Countries - Worldwide > Ancestry.com - Family Facts - Bowes. There is a similar link there
        for Bowe. The general overlap between these maps may relate to your mention below that
        "s" was added to indicate "son of" among Saxon English. I never knew that.
        I have been in touch with a gal whose father was last name Bowes and hired someone to
        do an extensive genealogy for their family some decades back. It is six inches thick, hand
        written, and details their line and how it connects to the Bowes-Lyon line of the Queen
        Mother. Her family has 30 letters from the Queen Mother's father confirming the tie. This
        line, from the Yorkshire area, begins in William the Conqueror's time with Arcubus de
        Bowes who was said to have come over with William the Conqueror from Normandy (see
        "Who Really Came with [William] the Conqueror in 1066? " in Links > Research - Countries
        - England, which, for what the source may be worth, neither confirms nor rules this out).
        This is the only living line I know of that can confirm early ties with Yorkshire and the
        Queen Mother. It would be invaluable to the project to have a male representative join so
        we'd know that haplotype modal (unique DNA markers). But as luck (or not) would have it,
        she is unaware of any remaining male Boweses. Somewhere out there are distant cousins,
        and if she can find them she will help us connect with them. There is a website with more
        information about this line in Links > Research - Countries - England > "A Bowes Lineage
        from Yorkshire". Note that I have commented on that site's complete renunciation of
        William de Arcubus in "Possible Origins of Bowes Surname."
        __________


        >
        > If the name is indeed of 'English/Danish/Saxon' roots then when and
        > how did it travel to Ireland?
        >
        > a) Possibly through the Norse/Danish incursions into Ireland during
        > the 9th Century? Well not entirely satisfactory as Vikings tended in
        > general to name their children after the Father, thus JorgenSON,
        > HaroldSON etc. They did occasionaly choose 'nick' names or adopt
        > place-names, but this was rarer. Besides, the Danes were amonsgt the
        > last in Europe to use surnames, a time after the Viking period in
        > Ireland.
        >
        > b) The name 'Bowes' could possibly have been adopted later by
        > Scandinavian settlers

        ____

        And they could have done this whether at the time of adopting a surname they'd
        maintained their "English" Scandinavian identity or enculturated into the Irish culture as so
        many of them did.
        ___


        >
        > c) The adding of an 'S' to a name was a widespread practice used by
        > the Saxon-English to suggest 'son-of'. For example: RichardS EdwardS
        > etc. Could BoweS have a similar origin? If the name has English roots
        > at what stage did it move to Ireland?

        _______

        Interesting. Quite possible for some of us. Other times, Bowe and Bowes were just variants
        before the time that the spelling of last names became consistent, with many families
        using both names, or the family name being recorded differently by people such as census
        takers who just wrote what they heard. "What's your last name?" "We're Bowes." Is that
        plural of Bowe, son of Bowe, or Bowes? I think the more prominent English Bowes
        lineage(s) began as more of a place name (e.g., William de Arcubus/Bowes and Gerard de
        Bowes where "de" means "of" in French), but no doubt there were other lineages that
        began Bowe and added "s" to indicate `son of.".
        _______


        >
        > Well we can to some degree rule out the 12th Century Norman invasion
        > of Ireland, the majority of whom were Norman and Welsh. Any English
        > component of this incursion were made up of troops from the West
        > Country of England, where the name 'Bowes' is not at all common.
        > Besides at this time many ordinary people had not taken up the
        > practice of distinct surnames.

        _____
        I think between the English William de Arcubus/Bowes story and Gerard de Bowes, both
        names of Norman construction, during and not long after the Norman conquest of
        England, we should keep this possibility on the table. Some could have come from England
        not necessarily as ordinary folk but as gentry. Many norman gentry fully acculturated into
        Irish ways.

        Also, I've read the Normans themselves (at least some of them) were originally Vikings
        who went to Normandy (by way of the Yorkshire area?). So participants in our project with
        Viking DNA can't yet rule out a Norman connection by way of Yorkshire or otherwise. At
        least one of the two Bowes and Bowe participants with the "Danish" haplotype (Haplotype
        I1 Group 3; Ken Nordvedt says were Danish) was from Kilkenny, the Norman seat of power
        (ENA Michael Bowes, b. 1791, Kilkenny).
        No firm conclusions in favor of Norman roots, but I'm inclined to leave the possibility quite
        open. Many of these Normans thoroughly integrated into Irish culture. I read the Statutes
        of Kilkenny were intended in part to bring the scallawags into line since they were a thorn
        in the Crown's side. I believe some researchers are keeping an eye out in case haplotypes
        representing the Norman vikings emerge. How can we get huge numbers of males in that
        part of France to get their DNA tested??? I hear Europeans are not so interested in genetic
        genealogy.
        ____


        >
        > Where does that leave us? Well the name 'Bowes' would certainly have
        > developed and been adopted more numerously by the 16th Century and
        > one wonders if this was the period that heralded the arrival of the
        > English name 'Bowes' to Ireland during the Elizabethan, Cromwellian
        > and later plantations. Do we have any evidence to support this idea?

        ______

        Bingo for some Bowes lines. I am in touch with two Bowes males (not project participants
        at this time) whose paper trails match in Fermanagh. One found his 1600s family records
        in an Anglican church and they owned a farm. He surmises that they came as part of the
        plantations, having been given a land grant, and says, "The land grants were one of the
        first attempts to get British citizens (Anglicans loyal to the crown) to immigrate to Ireland,
        mostly in the
        north... They were basically trying to make sure that loyal Anglicans started to take over in
        Ireland and Canada." Note "loyal", as opposed to the not so loyal English who were said to
        be "more Irish than the Irish themselves."
        ______


        > Not specifically. However there is a fascinating clue in the
        > prevalance of the Bowe/Bowes name in Counties Wexford and Kilkenny,
        > both areas of particularly high English settlement from the Middle
        > Ages onwards.

        ____

        I didn't know that these were areas of particularly high English settlement. Good
        correspondence. If you have a source for that for future use as conclusions solidify that
        would be great.
        ___

        >With further DNA testing of Bowes from these areas it
        > could be possible to detect Danish/Saxon haplogroups, which may well
        > have arrived through English settlers.

        _____

        We have a start. As mentioned above: "At least one of the two Bowes and Bowe
        participants with the "Danish" haplotype (Haplotype I1 Group 3; Ken Nordvedt says were
        Danish) was from Kilkenny, the Norman seat of power (ENA Michael Bowes, b. 1791,
        Kilkenny)." Hopefully we'll get more participants from this area.
        _____


        >
        > In conclusion we have two versions of the name, one Gaelic Irish, the
        > other Old-English/Danish, revealing which one we belong to is of
        > course a challenge being addressed by DNA testing.
        >
        ______

        We should also keep in mind for theOne-Name and DNA studies that sometimes
        individuals changed surnames for a variety of life story reasons. An "illegitimate" son
        might end up with the name of the father that raised him. Many children were orphaned
        due to parents falling sick and other reasons and then integrated into another family ... so
        some people today may have the surname without having any genetic connection to these
        possible early origins. In addition, there may be early origins of the name (and its variants)
        for some genetic lines that simply arose somewhere else for some unknown reason.
        This variety of possibilities is why growing the DNA database is so important and
        interesting. Through the combination of paper trails and genetic markers we begin to piece
        a puzzle together. With so many separate genetic lines in our project already, I think it will
        be an interesting road ahead! It would not be surprising if some of us came as early Viking
        incursions of the 800s, others with Normans, others as part of the English plantations, and
        others from Gaelic origins in the O'Buadaigh sept or something else. Some of us will never
        know for sure. Others will refine their history with the help of the project.
        _____

      • mhbowes11
        Sorry about the weird short lines and symbols. I drafted this in a word processor because I came back to it several times before finishing and didn t want to
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 1, 2009
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          Sorry about the weird short lines and symbols. I drafted this in a word processor because I
          came back to it several times before finishing and didn't want to leave a Reply window open
          for days. Anyway, you can fix that by clicking on Show Message Options to the right under
          the date, then select Unwrap Lines. The symbol doohickeys are meaningless.

          Martha
        • mhbowes11
          Vis the English origins, see also Links Research - Countries - England The National Trust Bowes Data site. It has interesting data showing Social
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 1, 2009
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            Vis the English origins, see also Links > Research - Countries - England > "The National
            Trust Bowes Data" site. It has interesting data showing Social Demographics, Geographical
            Spread and International Comparisons, including this for England (don't know the date):

            Mosaic type with highest index #: Upland Hill Farmers
            % of people with a more rural name: 38
            % of people with a more high-status name: 90

            Also shows some unusual ethnicities of forenames:

            Ethnicity of forenames BOWES
            British or unknown 99.29
            ---English or unknown 97.99
            ---Irish 0.76
            ---Scottish 0.37
            ---Welsh 0.17
            Jewish 0.02
            Balkan 0.00
            French 0.04
            German or Dutch 0.02
            Greek or Greek Cypriot 0.02
            Hispanic 0.09
            Hungarian 0.00
            Italian 0.04
            Nordic 0.02
            Polish or Czech 0.04
            Russian 0.06
            Black African 0.09
            North African 0.04
            Turkish or Turkish Cypriot 0.00
            Other Muslim 0.19
            Indian 0.09
            ---Hindi 0.02
            ---Sikh 0.00
            ---Other South Asian 0.00
            East Asian 0.04
          • Jeff
            Some initial thoughts on the very informative and helpful information researched by Martha. Firstly on those Bowes of seeming Norman origins, associated with
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 2, 2009
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              Some initial thoughts on the very informative and helpful information
              researched by Martha. Firstly on those 'Bowes' of seeming Norman
              origins, associated with the village of Bowes in Durham England.

              Let's set the record straight, in all likelyhood there was in all
              probability never a William de Arcubus/Bowes, nor any army of five
              hundred archers defending Bowes castle, this exotic claim is widely
              stated as being the origins of the Bowes name (well, for the English
              Bowes at least).

              There seems to be much misunderstanding concerning the 'Bowes' name
              and its supposed Norman roots, particularly that of 'William Bowes/de
              Arcubus'. Supposed courageous ancestor whiose valourous deeds gave
              birth to the Bowes name (in England at least) The common internet
              perception that the English Bowes name derives from said William
              springs from the pages of 'A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the
              Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland by John Burke (itself a Norman
              name associated with Ireland) 1838'.

              This relates a tradition recorded in a MS. which belonged to the
              monastery of St. Mary, York, and related in the Bowes pedigree, that
              Alan Niger, Earl of Richmond, in defence of the honor against the men
              of Cumberland and Westmoreland, who rebelled against the Conqueror,
              and with Gospatric, Earl of Northumberland, adhered to the King of
              Scots, built for himself the tower of Bowes, and placed therein his
              cousin William with 500 archers, and gave him a shield with the arms
              of Brittany, and three bows over them; and a bundle of arrows for his
              crest, whence this William was afterwards called William de Arcubus.
              This done into English is Bowes (bows) which became the surname of
              his descendants.

              Unfortunately for the truth of the tradition, there appears to be a
              glaring anachronism. Crests and coats of arms did not come into use
              in England till long after the time of Earl Alan!

              From the researches of General Harrison among the Pipe Rolls, it
              appears that the castle was begun by Henry II. in 1171, and
              completely finished in 1187, at a cost of £353. Osbert, son of Fulco
              de Bowes, was one of the King's commissioners for superintending the
              erection of the castle, and this appears to have been the only
              connection the family had with the fortress.

              They were, however, possessed of lands in Bowes at an early period,
              but it is from this Fulco de Bowes, rather than the traditional
              William de Arcubus, that their pedigree is to be traced. Sir Adam de
              Bowes, fourth son of Stephen de Bowes, who was fourth in descent from
              the above Fulco, was a man "learned in the lawes," whom Edward III.,
              in 1331, appointed Chief Justice of the King's Bench.

              A request, can all of us interested in the Bowes name kindly lay to
              rest the fanciful legend of William de Arcubus, a tale of noble
              origins which may have been concocted to invest some heraldic and
              aristocratic gravitas and credibility to the contrived Bowes-Lyon
              line. More on that below.

              Moving on slightly. The Welsh Norman invasion of Ireland took place
              in 1169, a hundred year before that of another widely named Norman
              Bowes, Gerard de Bowes (1269). The army was comprised of Norman
              knights, lords, Welsh, Flemish and English from the West of England.
              Please note that the Bowes surname is exceedingly rare in those areas
              of England. It is however strongly linked historically with Durham,
              Yorkshire and Cumbria, a region far removed from West Wales from
              where the invasion of Ireland set sail.

              Moreover Bowes village (County Durham) itself was thought to have
              been constructed only in the 12th century, therefore its numbers
              would be few, and the Bowes surname not then adopted/given to its
              inhabitants. So-called noblemen are recorded in County Durham for
              that period, including Gerrard and Fulco, however were they, or
              other 'Bowes', engaged in the invasion then it is not unreasonable to
              consider the name would appear alongside other prominent Norman names
              which were recorded as being involved

              Antiquarian, William Camden claims the following list of people
              present at the invasion.

              Persons who collaborated with Dermot MacMorrogh during the 1169
              invasion:

              Maurice de Prendergast
              Robert Barr
              Meiler Meilerine
              Maurice Fitz-Gerald
              Robert FitzHenry
              Meiler FitzHenry
              Redmond nephew of Fitz-Stephen
              William Ferrand
              Miles de Cogan (Cogan)
              Gualter de Ridensford
              Gualter and Alexander sons of Maurice Fitz-Gerald
              William Notte
              Richard Caddell (Progenitor of the Blake family)
              Robert Fitz-Bernard
              Hugh Lacie
              William Fitz-Aldelm
              William Macarell
              Hemphrey Bohun
              Hugh De Gundevill
              Philip de Hasting
              Hugh Tirell
              Walter de Barât
              Henry de Barât
              David Walsh
              Robert Poer (First Poer le Poer in Ireland)
              Osbert de Herloter
              William de Bendenges
              Adam de Gernez
              Philip de Breos
              Griffin nephew of Fitz-Stephen
              Raulfe Fitz-Stephen
              Walter de Barry
              Philip Walsh
              Adam de Hereford
              Others claimed to have been present during the 1169 invasion:

              John Courcy
              Hugh Contilon
              Redmund Fitz-Hugh
              Miles of St. David's Walynus, a Welshman who came to Ireland with
              Maurice Fitzgerald
              Sir Robert Marmion, with Strongbow
              Those present during the invasion of Henry II in 1172:

              Richard de Tuite
              William de Wall
              Randolph FitzRalph, with FitzStephen
              Alice of Abervenny, with Raymond FitzWilliam Le Gros
              Richard de Cogan, with Strongbow
              Phillipe le Hore, with Strongbow
              Theobald Fitzwalter, with Henry II
              Robert de Bermingham, with Strongbow
              d'Evreux, with Strongbow
              Eustace Roger de Gernon, with Strongbow
              de la Chapelle (Supple)
              Gilbert d'Angulo and sons Jocelyn and Hostilo (Costello), with
              Strongbow.

              (William Camdens Britannia 1610)

              Final thoughts. The Bowes-Lyon issue is a red, if exotically royal,
              herring. The Queen Mother's earliest ancestor who bore the name
              being, John Bowes, 9th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne (July 17,
              1737 - March 7, 1776). The point being he was born as, John Lyon,
              only later adopting the name 'bowes'. In 1767 he married Mary Eleanor
              Bowes, and upon the request of the bride's father, assumed his wife's
              name. This change of name required an Act of Parliament. That family
              came not surprisingly from County Durham a stronghold of the Bowes
              name. This makes the Queen Mother's connections to the Bowes name
              somewhat distant and indirect, and certainly has no genuine meaning
              for those Bowes with English roots, who have perhaps been misinformed
              about the Bowes-Lyon connection.

              In conclusion I feel having read around this subject that the Bowes
              surname as it relates to Bowes Village in County Durham, has perhaps
              two lines of origin. One being the earlier Danish/Saxon places name,
              Bogas, the original name perhaps of the settlement there, the other
              deriving from two 12/13th Century names, Fulco and Gerrard de Bowes.
              I must state here however that I remain slightly unconvinced that the
              Bowes element of 'de Bowes' is Norman, thus I wonder if the name
              maybe some later corruption recided by chroniclers? What does appear
              clear though is that a number of Bowes are documented as have having
              held land in the area around, and possibly earlier, the time of the
              Norman conquest. This does not in itself mean they were of 'noble'
              origins or possessed of any formal titles. Could it be that the Bowes
              of Durham in question were Saxon landholders of some local status
              that either adopted or were given more 'Norman' sounding names? This
              would certainly explain the still, to my thinking at
              least,unconvincing assertion that Bowes is a Norman name.



              --- In bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Vis the English origins, see also Links > Research - Countries -
              England > "The National
              > Trust Bowes Data" site. It has interesting data showing Social
              Demographics, Geographical
              > Spread and International Comparisons, including this for England
              (don't know the date):
              >
              > Mosaic type with highest index #: Upland Hill Farmers
              > % of people with a more rural name: 38
              > % of people with a more high-status name: 90
              >
              > Also shows some unusual ethnicities of forenames:
              >
              > Ethnicity of forenames BOWES
              > British or unknown 99.29
              > ---English or unknown 97.99
              > ---Irish 0.76
              > ---Scottish 0.37
              > ---Welsh 0.17
              > Jewish 0.02
              > Balkan 0.00
              > French 0.04
              > German or Dutch 0.02
              > Greek or Greek Cypriot 0.02
              > Hispanic 0.09
              > Hungarian 0.00
              > Italian 0.04
              > Nordic 0.02
              > Polish or Czech 0.04
              > Russian 0.06
              > Black African 0.09
              > North African 0.04
              > Turkish or Turkish Cypriot 0.00
              > Other Muslim 0.19
              > Indian 0.09
              > ---Hindi 0.02
              > ---Sikh 0.00
              > ---Other South Asian 0.00
              > East Asian 0.04
              >
            • mhbowes11
              It s always so fun and challenging to read your contributions! We have corresponded for some time via email and I apologize if I am bringing up some items that
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 2, 2009
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                It's always so fun and challenging to read your contributions! We have corresponded for some
                time via email and I apologize if I am bringing up some items that we may have hashed out
                before. Centralizing all the Bowes (and variants) related info will hopefully help
                (interpretations with sources, etc.). It may take me some time for me to reply again as I sift
                through everything and attend to other matters. So many facets to consider.

                Meanwhile, your information and interpretations help me improve the use of some Links and
                Files I post by helping me refine "editorial" comments below the titles to assist others in their
                interpretations of sources as they apply (or not) to the project. I will include *some* materials
                at the site that could be considered, let's say, not too academic, because they (or information
                they contain) are so heavily relied on by researchers, but hopefully put them in perspective in
                my comments. This way, hopefully, the same questions won't keep resurfacing (unless there
                is actually new information to add) if members get to know the growing body of resources
                and commentary here before posting. But if they do post re: topics already discussed, we can
                simply direct the inquirer to search the archives for prior discussion or to view editorial
                comments at particular links or files.

                More to come ...

                Thanks for your contributions! Martha
              • Allen Bowes
                Martha, a pleasure. Jeff ... From: mhbowes11 Subject: [bowesvariantsdna] Re: Irish, Danish, or English? To: bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 2, 2009
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                  Martha, a pleasure. Jeff

                  --- On Fri, 2/1/09, mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...> wrote:
                  From: mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...>
                  Subject: [bowesvariantsdna] Re: Irish, Danish, or English?
                  To: bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, 2 January, 2009, 3:50 PM

                  It's always so fun and challenging to read your contributions! We have corresponded for some
                  time via email and I apologize if I am bringing up some items that we may have hashed out
                  before. Centralizing all the Bowes (and variants) related info will hopefully help
                  (interpretations with sources, etc.). It may take me some time for me to reply again as I sift
                  through everything and attend to other matters. So many facets to consider.

                  Meanwhile, your information and interpretations help me improve the use of some Links and
                  Files I post by helping me refine "editorial" comments below the titles to assist others in their
                  interpretations of sources as they apply (or not) to the project. I will include *some* materials
                  at the site that could be considered, let's say, not too academic, because they (or information
                  they contain) are so heavily relied on by researchers, but hopefully put them in perspective in
                  my comments. This way, hopefully, the same questions won't keep resurfacing (unless there
                  is actually new information to add) if members get to know the growing body of resources
                  and commentary here before posting. But if they do post re: topics already discussed, we can
                  simply direct the inquirer to search the archives for prior discussion or to view editorial
                  comments at particular links or files.

                  More to come ...

                  Thanks for your contributions! Martha


                • mhbowes11
                  Jeff, you may be entirely right about William de Arcubus. It s certainly clear that the part of the story about the coat of arms being granted long before
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 3, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jeff, you may be entirely right about William de Arcubus. It's certainly clear that the part of
                    the story about the coat of arms being granted long before crests came into being is
                    absolutely false. There's also a good probability that the rest of the story was fanciful. So
                    much poor research has served to boost reputations it could easily fall into this category.
                    However, I can't yet rule out that, as with many myths, including those of Irish origin, it
                    could be part true, part false. I'm skeptical (esp. given the account of Fulco de Bowes), but
                    as far as I know, there's nothing in writing to say that William de Arcubus (or Bowes by
                    another name) *didn't* live in Bowes Castle at some point, even if the other part of the
                    story is false. Is there any record of the castle's inhabitants? Might part of the story be
                    true?

                    I'm not sure if by asking if "we" can lay the Arcubus story to rest you meant you and I or
                    the whole group. For the record, I am inclined for this group to encourage everyone to
                    feel comfortable stating what for them is a conclusion, but I'd hate to see finalizing
                    matters *as a group* by putting themes to rest for all. Many have to come to conclusions
                    in their own time, after their own investigation. I would not want them to feel unwelcome
                    or uncomfortable if they are still pondering the complex past and volumes of
                    "information," good and bad, available to consider. Many also have long cherished family
                    stories that are hard to let go of, even in the face of strong challenges in the record.
                    (That's true on the Irish and English side.) I would also want *them* to feel comfortable
                    and as if they belong to this group. It's easier to be an open group and have friendly
                    disagreements between members than to be an open group if you have to agree to a list
                    of points to feel at ease and included.

                    On the whole though, the more I think about it, I personally believe you make a good
                    case.

                    > They were, however, possessed of lands in Bowes at an early period,
                    > but it is from this Fulco de Bowes, rather than the traditional
                    > William de Arcubus, that their pedigree is to be traced. Sir Adam de
                    > Bowes, fourth son of Stephen de Bowes, who was fourth in descent from
                    > the above Fulco, was a man "learned in the lawes," whom Edward III.,
                    > in 1331, appointed Chief Justice of the King's Bench.

                    I have the feeling there are more Bowes lineages from NE England then this one, making
                    telling the story of English origins more complex than being able to refer to "them" or
                    "they" and a single lineage. Based on some of your other thoughts I have a feeling this is
                    how you see it too? Hopefully the DNA project will help confirm or disprove this.

                    I agree there is no evidence I've seen of any Bowes having come over with the Normans.
                    Great list you posted. I've never seen that. But does it list all who came over? Was there a
                    larger "army" of some sort consisting of people less important individually such that they
                    didn't make the list? If so, did any of them come from areas outside the general area most
                    Normans came to Ireland from? I don't know the answers, and I'm not hoping for a
                    Norman Bowes come to Ireland (just interested in what really happened), but for the sake
                    of covering bases, I do wonder. Perhaps you've already studied this issue to have ruled
                    these possibilities out completely. I tend to leave possibilities open until I'm certain
                    they're impossibilities. According to what I know so far, though, I'd say a Bowes coming
                    over with Normans is more improbable than probable, but not yet disproved.
                    >
                    > Final thoughts. The Bowes-Lyon issue is a red, if exotically royal,
                    > herring. The Queen Mother's earliest ancestor who bore the name
                    > being, John Bowes, 9th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne (July 17,
                    > 1737 - March 7, 1776). The point being he was born as, John Lyon,
                    > only later adopting the name 'bowes'. In 1767 he married Mary Eleanor
                    > Bowes, and upon the request of the bride's father, assumed his wife's
                    > name. This change of name required an Act of Parliament. That family
                    > came not surprisingly from County Durham a stronghold of the Bowes
                    > name. This makes the Queen Mother's connections to the Bowes name
                    > somewhat distant and indirect, and certainly has no genuine meaning
                    > for those Bowes with English roots, who have perhaps been misinformed
                    > about the Bowes-Lyon connection.
                    >

                    Here I am more inclined to wax clinical and make genetic distinctions. I don't see the
                    Bowes-Lyon connection as altogether meaningless to any Bowes today who can prove a
                    paper trail to Mary Eleanor Bowes, but if it were me I would do my best to put it in
                    perspective. I would determine whether I was a direct descendent of Mary Eleanor Bowes,
                    and if so could then say that I and the Queen Mother share a direct descendent in a
                    female Bowes. On the other hand, they could share a common ancestor with Mary Eleanor
                    Bowes, making them x cousins x times removed, and have an even more distant, yet real,
                    genetic relationship to the Queen Mother. You're right that the connection is meaningless
                    in the sense of sharing a surname lineage with specific matching Y-DNA markers. The
                    Queen Mother has no Y-DNA and her father had Lyon Y-DNA, not Bowes. Further, I
                    suspect no one today could claim an unbroken female descent from Mary Eleanor Bowes,
                    though it's possible (I haven't examined her pedigree). Assuming the Queen also does not
                    have an unbroken female descent from Mary Eleanor Bowes, or even if only one of the two
                    lines or the other didn't, a female Bowes today could not claim shared mtDNA with the
                    Queen Mother. But, there are always autosomal chromosomes (the non-sex
                    chromosomes). If someone can prove relatedness to Mary Eleanor Bowes, I'd say they
                    probably have what is by now an invisible and genetically insignificant amount of shared
                    autosomal genes with the Queen Mother line. In addition to genetic meaning to
                    relationships, many of us value our family's story beyond the Y-DNA surname matches,
                    but for me it would be important for the integrity of the story to understand and convey
                    the exact relatedness. In this case, as a footnote, but not altogether meaningless. All that
                    said, I have no evidence whatsoever of a connection between my male Bowes line and
                    Mary Eleanor Bowes and am not looking for one. But I would love to have a "certified"
                    male Bowes from that line join the project so we'd know those markers, and I would hope
                    that would verify for some other Bowes, many of whom have been told by family they are
                    part of the Bowes lineage that married into the royal family (albeit through a female
                    Bowes), whether or not that is true. It strikes me as a major part of the Bowes One-Name
                    Study, while DNA study results and interpretation provide a means for clarification.

                    > In conclusion I feel having read around this subject that the Bowes
                    > surname as it relates to Bowes Village in County Durham, has perhaps
                    > two lines of origin. One being the earlier Danish/Saxon places name,
                    > Bogas, the original name perhaps of the settlement there, the other
                    > deriving from two 12/13th Century names, Fulco and Gerrard de Bowes.

                    I also feel sure of these. Hopefully the facts of it will emerge over time as we pursue all
                    this.

                    > I must state here however that I remain slightly unconvinced that the
                    > Bowes element of 'de Bowes' is Norman, thus I wonder if the name
                    > maybe some later corruption recided by chroniclers? What does appear
                    > clear though is that a number of Bowes are documented as have having
                    > held land in the area around, and possibly earlier, the time of the
                    > Norman conquest. This does not in itself mean they were of 'noble'
                    > origins or possessed of any formal titles. Could it be that the Bowes
                    > of Durham in question were Saxon landholders of some local status
                    > that either adopted or were given more 'Norman' sounding names? This
                    > would certainly explain the still, to my thinking at
                    > least,unconvincing assertion that Bowes is a Norman name.

                    I agree. I especially think Bowes itself is not Norman, but along with the other possibilities
                    you mention it's possible Normans (not necessarily nobles or elite as you say) used the
                    place name and their own culture's construction to take the name "de Bowes." In line with
                    your thinking, I just recalled from a linguistics course I took that French was the official
                    language of England for 300 years after the Normans came, so not unlikely some Saxons
                    conformed.

                    As the risk of straying off topic a tad, I lost the source but here's the note I kept about
                    this:

                    "French was the official language of England for 300 years after the Norman conquest.
                    During that time most of our original English language, which had a grammar more like
                    that of Turkish, was lost, along with a rich body of literature and philosophy in Old
                    English. The only reason the King's English came to be standard English was that when
                    English was reinstituted as the official language of England, the upper classes, who at that
                    time were busy acquainting themselves with Latin literature (having lost most of their
                    own), controlled and designated as preferred the new English that emerged. But the old
                    Greek and Latin perspective, which England adopted, that there is somehow a pure
                    language, is totally false from a linguistic perspective. Furthermore, language is spoken
                    first (most languages don't even have a written version). It is only in very literate cultures
                    like ours that it is mistakenly believed that language is primarily written. Thus, the written
                    grammars for English that came from the Latin branches (English originated along another
                    language branch entirely) became the model for speech among the well-educated--an
                    inversion of the linguistic experience that has only served to make millions of people feel
                    inadequate in their use of language."

                    I think we're learning a thing or two about the living language of surnames!

                    Clarification about the Haplogroup I1 Group 3 having Danish haplotype: I emailed with
                    Ken Nordtvedt today and he updated his interpretation in light of his growth in
                    understanding the haplogroup. He says they're definitely Anglo-Saxon, but not clearly
                    Danish at all. Do you know, Jeff, how concentrated were the Anglo-Saxon in the
                    Bowes/Danelaw, England area vs the Danish? Just curious. Ken was more inclined to say
                    this group is probably from Germany, but the percentages in the personal pages for
                    Recent Ancestral Origins don't yet support that. It says, "You match 1 person out of 8,388
                    people from Germany. Which is < 0.1% of the population tested from Germany," not
                    making the 2% threshold for "significantly" or the 4% for "highly significantly" indicating
                    the place of origin. Maybe as the database grows.

                    That's it for now. Will rest my arm awhile.
                  • Jeff
                    Martha, as to William de Arcubus of course people have every right to consider the tale as being a genuine explanation of the origins of the Bowes surname
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jan 4, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Martha, as to 'William de Arcubus' of course people have every right
                      to consider the tale as being a genuine explanation of the origins of
                      the Bowes surname (in England). My comments were in no way an appeal
                      to limit anyone's freedom of interpretation. There are however in my
                      view serious questions about the credibility of that tale. For
                      example if we accept the story, based on a supposed manuscript from a
                      nearby monastery, (released into circulation around 1838 during a
                      period when certain Bowes of Durham were forging alliances with some
                      very influential 'royal' circles) we have to agree that the Bowes
                      name derives from the Norman period as a 'gift' in recognistion of
                      the supposed courage of one individual supported by bowmen.

                      Apart from the slight problem of heraldic titles and awards not being
                      given until much later in English history, we have to also consider
                      the placename of Bowes village itself. There are a number of accounts
                      that this settlement only came into being in the 12th Century, which
                      would, if correct, add some support to the Norman origins of Bowes.
                      However, if we look at the various names which the village has had,
                      we can see it was first called 'Bogis', a name clearly related to the
                      Danish/Saxon 'Bogas'. This suggests pre-Norman beginnings for the
                      Bowes settlement and undermines the notion that the village was named
                      after William de Arcubus/Bowes. Certainly that region was under heavy
                      Saxon and later Danish influence and it would not at all be
                      surprising that its beginnings are to be located during that time,
                      consider too the Danish sounding, River Greta, which runs past the
                      village.

                      Below is a rough chronological list of the various names given to
                      that settlement:

                      Bogis, Boues, Bouys (xii cent.); Bouas, Boghes (xiii cent.); Bouexe,
                      Boughes, Bowes (xiv cent.).

                      There are indeed no doubt many Bowes lines in County Durham, some
                      perhaps the descendents of the landowning Bowes from that region.
                      Many others will no doubt have been ordinary folk from humble and
                      difficult conditions. One wonders whose versions of history appears
                      in the records, thus far we are dazzled by the seeminglky fabulous
                      deeds of Norman knights and archers. I suspect the truth is more
                      ancient still and rests within the 6th to 10th Century, when Germanic
                      speaking peoples, first Saxon, later Danish, settled by the bends and
                      bows of the river which now runs alongside Bowes in County Durham.

                      Apart from the few hundred Norman knights (captains) which invaded
                      Ireland in 1169, the majority of the force were Welsh and Flemish,
                      with additional numbers of English troops. These latter came
                      predominantly from the West, and South West of England, regions where
                      the Bowes name is extremely rare, even today. Moreover at that time
                      many ordinaly folk had not then adopted surnames, only the elite had
                      begun to use them.

                      From: 'Parishes: Bowes', A History of the County of York North
                      Riding: Volume 1 (1914), pp. 42-49. URL: http://www.british-
                      history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=64715 Date accessed: 04 January
                      2009.isnot being awardedMy appeal, to lay that character to rest, was
                      a general call to focus on more solid ground in the quest for
                      establishing probable roots for the name. Regards, --- In
                      bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Jeff, you may be entirely right about William de Arcubus. It's
                      certainly clear that the part of
                      > the story about the coat of arms being granted long before crests
                      came into being is
                      > absolutely false. There's also a good probability that the rest of
                      the story was fanciful. So
                      > much poor research has served to boost reputations it could easily
                      fall into this category.
                      > However, I can't yet rule out that, as with many myths, including
                      those of Irish origin, it
                      > could be part true, part false. I'm skeptical (esp. given the
                      account of Fulco de Bowes), but
                      > as far as I know, there's nothing in writing to say that William de
                      Arcubus (or Bowes by
                      > another name) *didn't* live in Bowes Castle at some point, even if
                      the other part of the
                      > story is false. Is there any record of the castle's inhabitants?
                      Might part of the story be
                      > true?
                      >
                      > I'm not sure if by asking if "we" can lay the Arcubus story to rest
                      you meant you and I or
                      > the whole group. For the record, I am inclined for this group to
                      encourage everyone to
                      > feel comfortable stating what for them is a conclusion, but I'd
                      hate to see finalizing
                      > matters *as a group* by putting themes to rest for all. Many have
                      to come to conclusions
                      > in their own time, after their own investigation. I would not want
                      them to feel unwelcome
                      > or uncomfortable if they are still pondering the complex past and
                      volumes of
                      > "information," good and bad, available to consider. Many also have
                      long cherished family
                      > stories that are hard to let go of, even in the face of strong
                      challenges in the record.
                      > (That's true on the Irish and English side.) I would also want
                      *them* to feel comfortable
                      > and as if they belong to this group. It's easier to be an open
                      group and have friendly
                      > disagreements between members than to be an open group if you have
                      to agree to a list
                      > of points to feel at ease and included.
                      >
                      > On the whole though, the more I think about it, I personally
                      believe you make a good
                      > case.
                      >
                      > > They were, however, possessed of lands in Bowes at an early
                      period,
                      > > but it is from this Fulco de Bowes, rather than the traditional
                      > > William de Arcubus, that their pedigree is to be traced. Sir Adam
                      de
                      > > Bowes, fourth son of Stephen de Bowes, who was fourth in descent
                      from
                      > > the above Fulco, was a man "learned in the lawes," whom Edward
                      III.,
                      > > in 1331, appointed Chief Justice of the King's Bench.
                      >
                      > I have the feeling there are more Bowes lineages from NE England
                      then this one, making
                      > telling the story of English origins more complex than being able
                      to refer to "them" or
                      > "they" and a single lineage. Based on some of your other thoughts I
                      have a feeling this is
                      > how you see it too? Hopefully the DNA project will help confirm or
                      disprove this.
                      >
                      > I agree there is no evidence I've seen of any Bowes having come
                      over with the Normans.
                      > Great list you posted. I've never seen that. But does it list all
                      who came over? Was there a
                      > larger "army" of some sort consisting of people less important
                      individually such that they
                      > didn't make the list? If so, did any of them come from areas
                      outside the general area most
                      > Normans came to Ireland from? I don't know the answers, and I'm not
                      hoping for a
                      > Norman Bowes come to Ireland (just interested in what really
                      happened), but for the sake
                      > of covering bases, I do wonder. Perhaps you've already studied this
                      issue to have ruled
                      > these possibilities out completely. I tend to leave possibilities
                      open until I'm certain
                      > they're impossibilities. According to what I know so far, though,
                      I'd say a Bowes coming
                      > over with Normans is more improbable than probable, but not yet
                      disproved.
                      > >
                      > > Final thoughts. The Bowes-Lyon issue is a red, if exotically
                      royal,
                      > > herring. The Queen Mother's earliest ancestor who bore the name
                      > > being, John Bowes, 9th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne (July
                      17,
                      > > 1737 - March 7, 1776). The point being he was born as, John Lyon,
                      > > only later adopting the name 'bowes'. In 1767 he married Mary
                      Eleanor
                      > > Bowes, and upon the request of the bride's father, assumed his
                      wife's
                      > > name. This change of name required an Act of Parliament. That
                      family
                      > > came not surprisingly from County Durham a stronghold of the
                      Bowes
                      > > name. This makes the Queen Mother's connections to the Bowes name
                      > > somewhat distant and indirect, and certainly has no genuine
                      meaning
                      > > for those Bowes with English roots, who have perhaps been
                      misinformed
                      > > about the Bowes-Lyon connection.
                      > >
                      >
                      > Here I am more inclined to wax clinical and make genetic
                      distinctions. I don't see the
                      > Bowes-Lyon connection as altogether meaningless to any Bowes today
                      who can prove a
                      > paper trail to Mary Eleanor Bowes, but if it were me I would do my
                      best to put it in
                      > perspective. I would determine whether I was a direct descendent of
                      Mary Eleanor Bowes,
                      > and if so could then say that I and the Queen Mother share a direct
                      descendent in a
                      > female Bowes. On the other hand, they could share a common ancestor
                      with Mary Eleanor
                      > Bowes, making them x cousins x times removed, and have an even more
                      distant, yet real,
                      > genetic relationship to the Queen Mother. You're right that the
                      connection is meaningless
                      > in the sense of sharing a surname lineage with specific matching Y-
                      DNA markers. The
                      > Queen Mother has no Y-DNA and her father had Lyon Y-DNA, not Bowes.
                      Further, I
                      > suspect no one today could claim an unbroken female descent from
                      Mary Eleanor Bowes,
                      > though it's possible (I haven't examined her pedigree). Assuming
                      the Queen also does not
                      > have an unbroken female descent from Mary Eleanor Bowes, or even if
                      only one of the two
                      > lines or the other didn't, a female Bowes today could not claim
                      shared mtDNA with the
                      > Queen Mother. But, there are always autosomal chromosomes (the non-
                      sex
                      > chromosomes). If someone can prove relatedness to Mary Eleanor
                      Bowes, I'd say they
                      > probably have what is by now an invisible and genetically
                      insignificant amount of shared
                      > autosomal genes with the Queen Mother line. In addition to genetic
                      meaning to
                      > relationships, many of us value our family's story beyond the Y-DNA
                      surname matches,
                      > but for me it would be important for the integrity of the story to
                      understand and convey
                      > the exact relatedness. In this case, as a footnote, but not
                      altogether meaningless. All that
                      > said, I have no evidence whatsoever of a connection between my male
                      Bowes line and
                      > Mary Eleanor Bowes and am not looking for one. But I would love to
                      have a "certified"
                      > male Bowes from that line join the project so we'd know those
                      markers, and I would hope
                      > that would verify for some other Bowes, many of whom have been told
                      by family they are
                      > part of the Bowes lineage that married into the royal family
                      (albeit through a female
                      > Bowes), whether or not that is true. It strikes me as a major part
                      of the Bowes One-Name
                      > Study, while DNA study results and interpretation provide a means
                      for clarification.
                      >
                      > > In conclusion I feel having read around this subject that the
                      Bowes
                      > > surname as it relates to Bowes Village in County Durham, has
                      perhaps
                      > > two lines of origin. One being the earlier Danish/Saxon places
                      name,
                      > > Bogas, the original name perhaps of the settlement there, the
                      other
                      > > deriving from two 12/13th Century names, Fulco and Gerrard de
                      Bowes.
                      >
                      > I also feel sure of these. Hopefully the facts of it will emerge
                      over time as we pursue all
                      > this.
                      >
                      > > I must state here however that I remain slightly unconvinced that
                      the
                      > > Bowes element of 'de Bowes' is Norman, thus I wonder if the name
                      > > maybe some later corruption recided by chroniclers? What does
                      appear
                      > > clear though is that a number of Bowes are documented as have
                      having
                      > > held land in the area around, and possibly earlier, the time of
                      the
                      > > Norman conquest. This does not in itself mean they were
                      of 'noble'
                      > > origins or possessed of any formal titles. Could it be that the
                      Bowes
                      > > of Durham in question were Saxon landholders of some local status
                      > > that either adopted or were given more 'Norman' sounding names?
                      This
                      > > would certainly explain the still, to my thinking at
                      > > least,unconvincing assertion that Bowes is a Norman name.
                      >
                      > I agree. I especially think Bowes itself is not Norman, but along
                      with the other possibilities
                      > you mention it's possible Normans (not necessarily nobles or elite
                      as you say) used the
                      > place name and their own culture's construction to take the
                      name "de Bowes." In line with
                      > your thinking, I just recalled from a linguistics course I took
                      that French was the official
                      > language of England for 300 years after the Normans came, so not
                      unlikely some Saxons
                      > conformed.
                      >
                      > As the risk of straying off topic a tad, I lost the source but
                      here's the note I kept about
                      > this:
                      >
                      > "French was the official language of England for 300 years after
                      the Norman conquest.
                      > During that time most of our original English language, which had a
                      grammar more like
                      > that of Turkish, was lost, along with a rich body of literature and
                      philosophy in Old
                      > English. The only reason the King's English came to be standard
                      English was that when
                      > English was reinstituted as the official language of England, the
                      upper classes, who at that
                      > time were busy acquainting themselves with Latin literature (having
                      lost most of their
                      > own), controlled and designated as preferred the new English that
                      emerged. But the old
                      > Greek and Latin perspective, which England adopted, that there is
                      somehow a pure
                      > language, is totally false from a linguistic perspective.
                      Furthermore, language is spoken
                      > first (most languages don't even have a written version). It is
                      only in very literate cultures
                      > like ours that it is mistakenly believed that language is primarily
                      written. Thus, the written
                      > grammars for English that came from the Latin branches (English
                      originated along another
                      > language branch entirely) became the model for speech among the
                      well-educated--an
                      > inversion of the linguistic experience that has only served to make
                      millions of people feel
                      > inadequate in their use of language."
                      >
                      > I think we're learning a thing or two about the living language of
                      surnames!
                      >
                      > Clarification about the Haplogroup I1 Group 3 having Danish
                      haplotype: I emailed with
                      > Ken Nordtvedt today and he updated his interpretation in light of
                      his growth in
                      > understanding the haplogroup. He says they're definitely Anglo-
                      Saxon, but not clearly
                      > Danish at all. Do you know, Jeff, how concentrated were the Anglo-
                      Saxon in the
                      > Bowes/Danelaw, England area vs the Danish? Just curious. Ken was
                      more inclined to say
                      > this group is probably from Germany, but the percentages in the
                      personal pages for
                      > Recent Ancestral Origins don't yet support that. It says, "You
                      match 1 person out of 8,388
                      > people from Germany. Which is < 0.1% of the population tested from
                      Germany," not
                      > making the 2% threshold for "significantly" or the 4% for "highly
                      significantly" indicating
                      > the place of origin. Maybe as the database grows.
                      >
                      > That's it for now. Will rest my arm awhile.
                      >
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