Allen, you have made interesting points. As I read I realized that my research on my own line and how it fits into the big picture of Bowe and variants in Ireland and the even bigger picture of the name world wide was left out of my 'trip to Ireland' post. Martha is always reminding me that my line and work does not apply to everyone!
I have a working assumption that those Bowe living in Co.Laoix, Tipperary and Kilkenny in the last 200 years arose from a common group and that some of the Y-DNA results that show other paternal lines among Bowe people living in that area are non-paternal events with a Bowe woman.
I have sent out 200 letters to all the Bowe/s households I could find in Ireland. 100 of those households were in the three Countys listed previously, with the other 100 households listed coming from all the rest of Ireland combined. I never meant to imply in my post that all Bowe/s in Ireland originated from one area. I know Martha doesn't believe that!
The beauty of the surname study is unraveling the Bowe/s story, working to uncover all the whens and wheres. The only way that I see this being done successfully is going backwards in time, one step at a time. Why there are so few Bowe/s is another interesting question to ponder. We survived and spread out to the 'New World' in great numbers but we stayed under the radar in Ireland it seems.
--- In email@example.com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...> wrote:
> Martha, thanks for the detailed information and clarifications, for which I am
> grateful, there appears to be some lines, as your findings imply, tracing to the
> Ely Caroll, my contribution was airing an obvious (maybe overlooked)
> consideration, namely that the Bowe (variants) name; while having traditional
> association with Cork, Tipperary and your own families part of Eire, has been
> recognized by those with an interest as being fairly scattered, not say with
> such numerous or strong associations with specific locales as other Irish names.
> On that basis alone, it would be adventurous to conclude, even with limited
> genetic indications, a single source area for any particular Bowe line, although
> there may be firmer ground if we are talking within a relatively recent
> timescale, say post-Medieval onwards? That may well, in my view apply. However
> beyond that, to the mist covered bogs of pre-history, when Eire was peopled by
> arrivals from the continent and Britain Sept names, though later ascribed to
> certain locations may well have emerged in various localities, and given the
> relatively unchanged social/economic structure which prevalied over time in
> Eire, may well have taken root so to speak. Now it may well be that Cork was one
> such an area, where folks bearing the name Buadhaigh settled, or more likely
> received their name, other areas too, including the far North.
> What always fascinates my thinking on our Bowe (variants) name is its low
> frequency, even more so if we remove still, those carrying the name who may have
> been English 'settlers', then we are left with a distinctly low number,
> comparitively speaking to other Sept names. I believe (I am after all making
> this up as I go along) there could a tantalizing reason for that, which may well
> have it's origins in those Erainn peoples, including the Corca Laiodhe) who
> settled, we are asked to consider, prior to later Godelic populations, yet whose
> power, territory were consumed, by what we could loosely refer to as later
> 'Celtic' groups, such as for example the EÃ³ganacht. The earlier Erainn became
> one of a number of subject groups, lists of whom are preserved in early medieval
> texts, they became a form of oppresed minority, taking up a number of specic
> trades, some held onto more marginal lands, but their prestige and dominance
> were over, nothing has remained of their language, apart maybe from one or two
> names. The Gaels were the new authority and their tongue, culture, history and
> control was to overwhelm the earlier Erainn, yet preserved in some Sept names
> and chronicled in tradition are fascinating possibilities of identification. Was
> this period, and the rapid fall from power of Erainn peoples, to establish a
> pattern and frequency of such peoples across Eire, including the Ua Buadhaigh?
> What is certain is that the Bowe name happily defies to catagorized, a trait
> which is in itself a defining characteristic of my own Bowe's :) It may well
> have plausable roots in Laios, but I have a feeling our ancestors at some early
> stage bore the name across Eire, to leave an imprint, the outlines of which we
> may be witnessing in amended form today
> From: mhbowes11 <mhbowes11@...>
> To: firstname.lastname@example.org
> Sent: Tue, 17 May, 2011 22:52:34
> Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: trip to ireland - Bowe in Ireland Origins
> Some clarification hereâ¦
> Jeane's subgroup in the DNA project matches in its Y-chromosome the modal for
> Ely Carroll, the ancient region and cluster of septs ruled by the O"Carrolls.
> This region covered Offaly and Northern Tipperary, and parts of Laois at various
> times. They match a documented modern descendent of the Litter Luna Carroll
> branch, but most likely also match the other Carroll branches from the area.
> It's just that we don't have a modern descendent of the other branches in the
> database to compare with.
> Another interesting thing is how we can now use autosomal DNA by ordering the
> Family Finder test through FTDNA. My own Bowe subgroup has a different
> Y-chromosome result from Jeane's subgroup, but three Bowe matches in my subgroup
> are from northern Kilkenny and Tipperary and overlap the Ely Carroll subgroup.
> So Jeane and my father both took the Family Finder autosomal test, and even
> though autosomal DNA can dilute quickly with each generation, she and I did in
> fact show matching segments which would be from before 1800 (because our paper
> trails don't connect after that time). The only surname we know of that we have
> in common is Bowe. Using autosomal DNA established that her Ely Carroll subgroup
> and my subgroup in fact share the same history even though our Y chromosomes are
> different. Since my subgroup matches a Pearse from Devon, England, there most
> likely was a non-paternal event where a Pearse conceived a son with one of the
> Ely Carroll Bowe women, and that son would have been raised as a Bowe and took
> the name.
> While autosomal matching is not guaranteed to preserve a connection from as far
> back in time as the Y chromosome, when it does it can be a useful tool for us to
> discern which of our Irish Bowe/s lineages actually represent a non-paternal
> event with the Ely Carroll subgroup. Our three participants from Ireland who
> don't have matches at this time have paper trails to Laois, Tipperary and
> Kilkenny, all areas where the Ely Carroll Bowe have a clear history in documents
> and DNA. It would be a good idea to take part in the autosomal testing and look
> for matching segments with other Bowe that way, alongside use of the Y
> chromosome. It could be that these three without matches belong to the Ely
> Carroll Bowe subgroup, in their autosomal history, but had a non-paternal event
> along the Y chromosome similar to my subgroup. It becomes important to try to
> rule this in or out and not just rely on the Y chromosome since non-paternal
> events were not uncommon.
> Further, all we have established is that Jeane's subgroup matches Ely Carroll
> with the Y chromosome. This leaves open the possibility that her subgroup, and
> my father's that matches hers autosomally, actually have earlier history from
> Cork or some other area than Ely Carroll. The Ely Carroll Y-chromosome could
> itself be a non-paternal event in a Bowe group from elsewhere.
> We still don't have any DNA or documentary proof to substantiate the Irish
> surname history account of our surname in Ireland originating in Cork among the
> Corca Laodhe. One participant from Ireland has a unique haplotype that might be
> traced to the Corca Laodhe based on subclade studies (maybe he will share his
> research with us ;-), but we need to see genetic matches using the Y chromosome
> and/or autosomal chromosomes with others whose surname are also associated with
> the Corca Laodhe to hone in on a tribal modal from there, just as we've been
> able to do with Ely Carroll and other regional groups from Ireland. So far we
> haven't found matches with Corca Laodhe surnames.
> In addition to working to get more participants from Ireland in the project, the
> more of our current participants who take the Family Finder test the better, so
> we can build up our autosomal database within the project and have more chances
> for finding matching segments that connect Bowe subgroups that differ on the Y
> chromosome. Nice thing about that test is you can also study your other
> ancestral lines using it.
> --- In email@example.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@> wrote:
> > Hi Jeane,
> > Great to hear of your trip to Eire and the kindness of folks there, as always
> >hospitable and generous.
> > As a Bowe/Bowes/Bow (all variants in our family records) myself with roots in
> >Tipperary and prior to that I believe Cork, I was interested to note your idea
> >of the Bowe's 'migrating' from one source area. Hope you will not mind me
> >observing that such a model should be given very careful thought, as 'Bowe' and
> >its variants has strong associations too with Cork and Tipperary, and to my my
> >knowledge such groupings, certainly my own have no connection with Laios or the
> >Carrol family.
> > You are lucky to be able to identify with such certainty the line of your folks
> >to a specific family and location, as other Bowe's such as myself get back to
> >the 18th Century and a fog of speculation then descends.
> > --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Jeane Robinson" <jbowes110@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I just returned from a trip to Southern Ireland. I was doing research on my
> >own Bowe/s line, Michael Bowe married 1832 in Coan, Co. Kilkenny. I also met
> >with 11 Bowe/s and encouraged people to have their DNA tested and collected
> >their ancestors paper trails for our Surname project. My Bowe/s line descends
> >from the Litter Luna Carroll's so I also did some research on the Ely Carroll
> >which I will post on the Ely Carroll board.
> > >
> > > I had the good fortune of speaking with 4 historians and folklorists while
> >traveling around. Much of what I was told I believe should be seen as starting
> >points for further research. Perhaps the most interesting is that the Bowe in
> >Kilkenny were originally Hereitary musicians and entertainers. They would have
> >farmed a small piece of land but would have been paid in goods for their
> >services. Two Bowe brothers left Co. Kilkenny to join the Barnum and Bailey
> >Circus in the USA.
> > >
> > > I met with 11 Bowe/s during our visit, each of their family stories were
> >interesting and the people were all warm and friendly.
> > >
> > > The Bowe family seems to me to be found in greater numbers in the area of
> >Counties, Kilkenny, Laois (pronounced leash)and Offaly. It will be great when we
> >can get people tested from the counties that surround that area to see if the
> >Bowe/s just migrated there over time.
> > >