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Re: origins

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  • Martha H. Bowes
    321 321 we can hear you now in threaded mode!
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 15, 2010
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      321 321 we can hear you now in threaded mode!
    • mhbowes11
      Diane, I just found a reference in Modern Ireland 1600-1972 by RF Foster, p. 13, [by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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        Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.

        Martha

        --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:
        >
        > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
        >
      • bowes2000
        An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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          An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.

          --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
          >
          > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
          >
          > Martha
          >
          > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
          > >
          >
        • mhbowes11
          You are right about that. I have a map here called Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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            You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."

            --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
            >
            > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
            >
            > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
            > >
            > > Martha
            > >
            > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • mhbowes11
            1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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              1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)

              --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
              >
              > You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."
              >
              > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@> wrote:
              > >
              > > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
              > >
              > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
              > > >
              > > > Martha
              > > >
              > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • bowes2000
              That s the feller alright, what a bunch of bully-boys those Normans were, can confirm that Roache is a name found along the Suir Valley in Tipperary, an area
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 17, 2010
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                That's the feller alright, what a bunch of bully-boys those Normans were, can confirm that Roache is a name found along the Suir Valley in Tipperary, an area that came under Norman control. Oh and while I tink about it, you may wish to research theuse of 'bows' in Ireland, I could have this all wrong, but my understanding is that they were not used in Ireland until their introduction, probably via the Norman-Cambro invasion. If that is the case it requires a re-examination of any claimed origin of the Bowes/Bowe etc Irish name as deriving from that weapon, since the name may well have preceded the arrival of the bow by centuries.

                --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                >
                > 1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)
                >
                > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                > >
                > > You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."
                > >
                > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                > > >
                > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                > > > >
                > > > > Martha
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
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