Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: origins - Variants within families

Expand Messages
  • mhbowes11
    My family was always Bowes since emigrating during the potato famine, but they said they were related to a Bowe family who also lived in the farming
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      My family was always Bowes since emigrating during the potato famine, but they said they were related to a Bowe family who also lived in the farming communities west of Syracuse, New York. I found a marriage record in New York for my great-grandfather where his name was spelled Bow. Later I found his grandfather's marriage record in Ireland and he was Bowe. He appears as Bowes, however, in the Griffiths Valuation. My line matches two other lines that have both emigrated but retained the Bowe name. We also match to other surnames but that's another story…

      Martha

      --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
      >
      > Well within my family our name has been variously recorded as Bow, Bowes (pronounced as in Bows on a gift)and finally Bowe
      >
      > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeane Robinson <jbowes110@> wrote:
      > >
      > > My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons
      > > and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?
      > >
      >
    • mhbowes11
      Hi Diane, Except that you also now have further proof that he came from Ireland based on your Bowe/s DNA matches, at least one of them a pretty close match,
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Diane,

        Except that you also now have further proof that he came from Ireland based on your Bowe/s DNA matches, at least one of them a pretty close match, that are known to be from Kilkenny and Tipperary. It is most likely that your immigrant came from somewhere around there, so that's an improvement over Ireland as a whole.

        For those who don't know, Diane and I are in the same subgroup matching another Bowe, along with a Crowley from Cork and a Pearse from Devon. It's my suspicion that the Bowe branch began with a Pearse son born in Ireland raised in the Bowe family from the Tipperary/Kilkenny/Laois area. Devon and Munster had strong links during the Elizabethan plantation of Ireland, and our genetic distance to Pearse suggests a common ancestor since that time. While Pearse's family is Church of England, I believe all three Bowe lines were all Roman Catholic and culturally Irish by the time they emigrated. I know mine was. Just my best hypothesis at present.

        Our Crowley match from Cork, where the Crowley name has a high frequency if not its highest, probably also started as a Pearse son raised in a Crowley family. His connection to Pearse is more recent than ours, so it could be a different kind of story there.

        As with all the subgroups, we wait for additional data to help refine our notions.

        Martha
        [Sorry for any voice recognition errors I've missed.]

        --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:

        the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
        > The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
        > Diane Bowe
      • Jeane Robinson
        Checking 123 123 can you hear me now? ________________________________ From: mhbowes11 To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent:
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Checking 123 123 can you hear me now?


          From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
          To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thu, October 14, 2010 11:37:48 PM
          Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: origins

           

          Hi Diane,

          Except that you also now have further proof that he came from Ireland based on your Bowe/s DNA matches, at least one of them a pretty close match, that are known to be from Kilkenny and Tipperary. It is most likely that your immigrant came from somewhere around there, so that's an improvement over Ireland as a whole.

          For those who don't know, Diane and I are in the same subgroup matching another Bowe, along with a Crowley from Cork and a Pearse from Devon. It's my suspicion that the Bowe branch began with a Pearse son born in Ireland raised in the Bowe family from the Tipperary/Kilkenny/Laois area. Devon and Munster had strong links during the Elizabethan plantation of Ireland, and our genetic distance to Pearse suggests a common ancestor since that time. While Pearse's family is Church of England, I believe all three Bowe lines were all Roman Catholic and culturally Irish by the time they emigrated. I know mine was. Just my best hypothesis at present.

          Our Crowley match from Cork, where the Crowley name has a high frequency if not its highest, probably also started as a Pearse son raised in a Crowley family. His connection to Pearse is more recent than ours, so it could be a different kind of story there.

          As with all the subgroups, we wait for additional data to help refine our notions.

          Martha
          [Sorry for any voice recognition errors I've missed.]

          --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:

          the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
          > The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
          > Diane Bowe


        • Martha H. Bowes
          321 321 we can hear you now in threaded mode!
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 15, 2010
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            321 321 we can hear you now in threaded mode!
          • mhbowes11
            Diane, I just found a reference in Modern Ireland 1600-1972 by RF Foster, p. 13, [by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.

              Martha

              --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:
              >
              > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
              >
            • bowes2000
              An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.

                --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                >
                > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                >
                > Martha
                >
                > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                > >
                >
              • mhbowes11
                You are right about that. I have a map here called Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."

                  --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                  >
                  > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                  > >
                  > > Martha
                  > >
                  > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • mhbowes11
                  1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)

                    --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."
                    >
                    > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                    > >
                    > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                    > > >
                    > > > Martha
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • bowes2000
                    That s the feller alright, what a bunch of bully-boys those Normans were, can confirm that Roache is a name found along the Suir Valley in Tipperary, an area
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 17, 2010
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      That's the feller alright, what a bunch of bully-boys those Normans were, can confirm that Roache is a name found along the Suir Valley in Tipperary, an area that came under Norman control. Oh and while I tink about it, you may wish to research theuse of 'bows' in Ireland, I could have this all wrong, but my understanding is that they were not used in Ireland until their introduction, probably via the Norman-Cambro invasion. If that is the case it requires a re-examination of any claimed origin of the Bowes/Bowe etc Irish name as deriving from that weapon, since the name may well have preceded the arrival of the bow by centuries.

                      --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > 1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)
                      >
                      > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."
                      > >
                      > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Martha
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.