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RE: [bowesgenealogy] origins

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  • Diane Bowe
    Interesting -My husband s father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can t prove it -he
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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      Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840 - the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
      The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
      Diane Bowe

      --- On Thu, 10/14/10, 2Maxwells <2maxwells@...> wrote:

      From: 2Maxwells <2maxwells@...>
      Subject: RE: [bowesgenealogy] origins
      To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      Received: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 12:06 PM

       

      The name has always been Bowe in my family and that goes back to 1795.  In my family the name has always been pronounced like the archery bow.

       

      There was a daughter born in Digby, Nova Scotia in 1832 named Ann Carroll Bowe.  The other children and there was a total of 20 children that Will Bowe fathered with 2 wives - either don't have a middle name or it is Ann or James or Edward, etc.  There are a few exceptions that also sound like they are named for a surname for someone - such as Fairbanks, Morrison and Cuttler.  Don't know that this adds anything but with the Carroll connection it is interesting!

       

      Helen

       

       

      From: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeane Robinson
      Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:48 PM
      To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [bowesgenealogy] origins

       

       

      My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?

       


    • Diane Bowe
      ...   Interesting -My husband s father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can t prove
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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        :


         

         

        Helen

         

         

        From: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeane Robinson
        Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:48 PM
        To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [bowesgenealogy] origins

         

         

        My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?

         

        Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840 - the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
        The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
        Diane Bowe

        --- On Thu, 10/14/10, 2Maxwells <2maxwells@...> wrote:

        From: 2Maxwells <2maxwells@...>
        Subject: RE: [bowesgenealogy] origins
        To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 12:06 PM

         

        The name has always been Bowe in my family and that goes back to 1795.  In my family the name has always been pronounced like the archery bow.

         

        There was a daughter born in Digby, Nova Scotia in 1832 named Ann Carroll Bowe.  The other children and there was a total of 20 children that Will Bowe fathered with 2 wives - either don't have a middle name or it is Ann or James or Edward, etc.  There are a few exceptions that also sound like they are named for a surname for someone - such as Fairbanks, Morrison and Cuttler.  Don't know that this adds anything but with the Carroll connection it is interesting!



      • mhbowes11
        Hi Dale, I checked with another correspondent whose family descends from Clones, Fermanagh, since the 1600s–settlers from Scotland. He went through his
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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          Hi Dale,

          I checked with another correspondent whose family descends from Clones, Fermanagh, since the 1600s–settlers from Scotland. He went through his family file but could not find a David Bowes born in 1810. I was hoping I might strike gold for you there.

          Now that I know what you are looking for I will keep my eyes out.

          Martha

          --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Alfred Neuman <shortroad2paradise@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am certain about the name David, since he was a Protestant, I assumed he came from Northern Ireland, if that helps.  Most of the records I have placed them in Pickering Twp in Ontario Co.,Ontario,CN  David was married to Severina, in 1843 they had a son Edward.  Edward moved to Morris, Manitoba to farm. In 1892 he and his wife,Amelia moved to Buffalo,NY.  I would be most interested in locating David's place of birth in Ireland in 1810.  The rest of the information, I have, and would share with you, if you would like, up to the present.
          >
        • mhbowes11
          My family was always Bowes since emigrating during the potato famine, but they said they were related to a Bowe family who also lived in the farming
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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            My family was always Bowes since emigrating during the potato famine, but they said they were related to a Bowe family who also lived in the farming communities west of Syracuse, New York. I found a marriage record in New York for my great-grandfather where his name was spelled Bow. Later I found his grandfather's marriage record in Ireland and he was Bowe. He appears as Bowes, however, in the Griffiths Valuation. My line matches two other lines that have both emigrated but retained the Bowe name. We also match to other surnames but that's another story…

            Martha

            --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
            >
            > Well within my family our name has been variously recorded as Bow, Bowes (pronounced as in Bows on a gift)and finally Bowe
            >
            > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeane Robinson <jbowes110@> wrote:
            > >
            > > My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons
            > > and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?
            > >
            >
          • mhbowes11
            Hi Diane, Except that you also now have further proof that he came from Ireland based on your Bowe/s DNA matches, at least one of them a pretty close match,
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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              Hi Diane,

              Except that you also now have further proof that he came from Ireland based on your Bowe/s DNA matches, at least one of them a pretty close match, that are known to be from Kilkenny and Tipperary. It is most likely that your immigrant came from somewhere around there, so that's an improvement over Ireland as a whole.

              For those who don't know, Diane and I are in the same subgroup matching another Bowe, along with a Crowley from Cork and a Pearse from Devon. It's my suspicion that the Bowe branch began with a Pearse son born in Ireland raised in the Bowe family from the Tipperary/Kilkenny/Laois area. Devon and Munster had strong links during the Elizabethan plantation of Ireland, and our genetic distance to Pearse suggests a common ancestor since that time. While Pearse's family is Church of England, I believe all three Bowe lines were all Roman Catholic and culturally Irish by the time they emigrated. I know mine was. Just my best hypothesis at present.

              Our Crowley match from Cork, where the Crowley name has a high frequency if not its highest, probably also started as a Pearse son raised in a Crowley family. His connection to Pearse is more recent than ours, so it could be a different kind of story there.

              As with all the subgroups, we wait for additional data to help refine our notions.

              Martha
              [Sorry for any voice recognition errors I've missed.]

              --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:

              the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
              > The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
              > Diane Bowe
            • Jeane Robinson
              Checking 123 123 can you hear me now? ________________________________ From: mhbowes11 To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent:
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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                Checking 123 123 can you hear me now?


                From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
                To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, October 14, 2010 11:37:48 PM
                Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: origins

                 

                Hi Diane,

                Except that you also now have further proof that he came from Ireland based on your Bowe/s DNA matches, at least one of them a pretty close match, that are known to be from Kilkenny and Tipperary. It is most likely that your immigrant came from somewhere around there, so that's an improvement over Ireland as a whole.

                For those who don't know, Diane and I are in the same subgroup matching another Bowe, along with a Crowley from Cork and a Pearse from Devon. It's my suspicion that the Bowe branch began with a Pearse son born in Ireland raised in the Bowe family from the Tipperary/Kilkenny/Laois area. Devon and Munster had strong links during the Elizabethan plantation of Ireland, and our genetic distance to Pearse suggests a common ancestor since that time. While Pearse's family is Church of England, I believe all three Bowe lines were all Roman Catholic and culturally Irish by the time they emigrated. I know mine was. Just my best hypothesis at present.

                Our Crowley match from Cork, where the Crowley name has a high frequency if not its highest, probably also started as a Pearse son raised in a Crowley family. His connection to Pearse is more recent than ours, so it could be a different kind of story there.

                As with all the subgroups, we wait for additional data to help refine our notions.

                Martha
                [Sorry for any voice recognition errors I've missed.]

                --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:

                the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
                > The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
                > Diane Bowe


              • Martha H. Bowes
                321 321 we can hear you now in threaded mode!
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 15, 2010
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                  321 321 we can hear you now in threaded mode!
                • mhbowes11
                  Diane, I just found a reference in Modern Ireland 1600-1972 by RF Foster, p. 13, [by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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                    Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.

                    Martha

                    --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                    >
                  • bowes2000
                    An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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                      An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.

                      --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                      >
                      > Martha
                      >
                      > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                      > >
                      >
                    • mhbowes11
                      You are right about that. I have a map here called Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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                        You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."

                        --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                        >
                        > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                        > >
                        > > Martha
                        > >
                        > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • mhbowes11
                        1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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                          1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)

                          --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."
                          >
                          > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                          > >
                          > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                          > > >
                          > > > Martha
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • bowes2000
                          That s the feller alright, what a bunch of bully-boys those Normans were, can confirm that Roache is a name found along the Suir Valley in Tipperary, an area
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 17, 2010
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                            That's the feller alright, what a bunch of bully-boys those Normans were, can confirm that Roache is a name found along the Suir Valley in Tipperary, an area that came under Norman control. Oh and while I tink about it, you may wish to research theuse of 'bows' in Ireland, I could have this all wrong, but my understanding is that they were not used in Ireland until their introduction, probably via the Norman-Cambro invasion. If that is the case it requires a re-examination of any claimed origin of the Bowes/Bowe etc Irish name as deriving from that weapon, since the name may well have preceded the arrival of the bow by centuries.

                            --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > 1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)
                            >
                            > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."
                            > >
                            > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Martha
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
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