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Re: origins

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  • mhbowes11
    Welcome to the conversation Dale! I have often run across this surname connected to the Ontario area and wondered about those roots. I have some materials
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 13, 2010
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      Welcome to the conversation Dale!

      I have often run across this surname connected to the Ontario area and wondered about those roots. I have some materials e-mailed to me once about a family that settled there I think from Wexford. It's been sitting in my inbox for a long time waiting for me to pull it together and attach it somewhere at the website. I'll have to try to move that up toward the top of my pile and see if it can help you out. There has been a flurry of activity lately and I'm running low on sleep this week, so give me a little time to check into that.

      I wonder if Canada has naturalization records that might help?

      I quickly checked the Irish Family History Foundation's online database of Ireland's parish records and I find no entries for David Bowes born in 1810 but the dates covered vary by parish, so it's possible he was from a parish with no surviving records from that time. There are also about five counties that are not yet online there. You might want to go and sign up for e-mails from the foundation. You will then find out when the remaining counties, online and can see if your ancestor is in the records from them. http://www.rootsireland.ie/

      There are some Bowe families that added an "s" when they emigrated, possibly to sound more English but we really don't know why they altered their spelling. (The database search I just did would have pulled up David regardless of the spelling.)

      The other thing that stands out to me as a little bit of an anomaly is the first named David. There were a lot of first names that have come up repeatedly in association with Irish Bowes and Bowe (Michael and John maybe being the most common I have noticed)–certainly not unlike so many Irish naming patterns–but I had never seen the first named David occurring. I'm not sure if that means anything. There were some first names that are strongly associated with English/Protestant/Norman histories, but I have no knowledge of that being the case with the name David. Anyone know whether that's a common first name in Ireland?

      Martha
      [Sorry about any voice recognition errors I've missed.]

      --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Alfred Neuman <shortroad2paradise@...> wrote:
      >
      > My name is Bowes, pronounced as you described, I have been observing this site for some time now, however I never responded, until now.  I am interested in more recent history of the Bowes name and family.  From what I have been able to discover, so far, is that my family originated in Ireland (I have no record prior to their arrival in Canada around 1825), immigration record only reflect Ireland as his home, his name was David Bowes, born in 1810 and died in1889, in Whitby, Ontario. Many of the descendants have spread across Canada and the USA.  I am originally from the Buffalo area of NY.  Any information would be of value to myself and family.
      > Thank you,  Dale Bowes   
      >
      > --- On Wed, 10/13/10, Jeane Robinson <jbowes110@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Jeane Robinson <jbowes110@...>
      > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] origins
      > To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 3:47 PM
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      > My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?
      >
    • mhbowes11
      I did a quick check and the facts don t line up. The family I have some information on moved from Wicklow (not Wexford as I previously stated) to Ontario. The
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 13, 2010
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        I did a quick check and the facts don't line up. The family I have some information on moved from Wicklow (not Wexford as I previously stated) to Ontario. The father was a James Bowes born, oddly enough, in 1810. However, this document states that they emigrated in 1844. I have a lot more information on this family. They arrived in Meaford in 1848. It's an interesting family. They were members of the Anglican church and are connected to General Foord Bowes. Bowes is not his birth surname, rather Foord is. If you ever meet anyone around Ontario who is a descendent I would love to be in touch with them. The General is believed to have come from Holland with William of Orange. He had three sons, one settled in England, one in Scotland and one in Ireland. The Y-chromosome DNA from this family could help place descendants from all three of those countries!

        Martha

        --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <martha.bowes@...> wrote:
        >
        > Welcome to the conversation Dale!
        >
        > I have often run across this surname connected to the Ontario area and wondered about those roots. I have some materials e-mailed to me once about a family that settled there I think from Wexford. It's been sitting in my inbox for a long time waiting for me to pull it together and attach it somewhere at the website.
        >
        > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Alfred Neuman <shortroad2paradise@> wrote:
        > >
        > > My name is Bowes, pronounced as you described, I have been observing this site for some time now, however I never responded, until now.  I am interested in more recent history of the Bowes name and family.  From what I have been able to discover, so far, is that my family originated in Ireland (I have no record prior to their arrival in Canada around 1825), immigration record only reflect Ireland as his home, his name was David Bowes, born in 1810 and died in1889, in Whitby, Ontario. Many of the descendants have spread across Canada and the USA.  I am originally from the Buffalo area of NY.  Any information would be of value to myself and family.
        > > Thank you,  Dale Bowes   
      • Alfred Neuman
        I am certain about the name David, since he was a Protestant, I assumed he came from Northern Ireland, if that helps.  Most of the records I have placed them
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 13, 2010
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          I am certain about the name David, since he was a Protestant, I assumed he came from Northern Ireland, if that helps.  Most of the records I have placed them in Pickering Twp in Ontario Co.,Ontario,CN  David was married to Severina, in 1843 they had a son Edward.  Edward moved to Morris, Manitoba to farm. In 1892 he and his wife,Amelia moved to Buffalo,NY.  I would be most interested in locating David's place of birth in Ireland in 1810.  The rest of the information, I have, and would share with you, if you would like, up to the present.


          --- On Wed, 10/13/10, mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...> wrote:

          From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
          Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: origins
          To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 5:10 PM

           

          Welcome to the conversation Dale!

          I have often run across this surname connected to the Ontario area and wondered about those roots. I have some materials e-mailed to me once about a family that settled there I think from Wexford. It's been sitting in my inbox for a long time waiting for me to pull it together and attach it somewhere at the website. I'll have to try to move that up toward the top of my pile and see if it can help you out. There has been a flurry of activity lately and I'm running low on sleep this week, so give me a little time to check into that.

          I wonder if Canada has naturalization records that might help?

          I quickly checked the Irish Family History Foundation's online database of Ireland's parish records and I find no entries for David Bowes born in 1810 but the dates covered vary by parish, so it's possible he was from a parish with no surviving records from that time. There are also about five counties that are not yet online there. You might want to go and sign up for e-mails from the foundation. You will then find out when the remaining counties, online and can see if your ancestor is in the records from them. http://www.rootsireland.ie/

          There are some Bowe families that added an "s" when they emigrated, possibly to sound more English but we really don't know why they altered their spelling. (The database search I just did would have pulled up David regardless of the spelling.)

          The other thing that stands out to me as a little bit of an anomaly is the first named David. There were a lot of first names that have come up repeatedly in association with Irish Bowes and Bowe (Michael and John maybe being the most common I have noticed)–certainly not unlike so many Irish naming patterns–but I had never seen the first named David occurring. I'm not sure if that means anything. There were some first names that are strongly associated with English/Protestant/Norman histories, but I have no knowledge of that being the case with the name David. Anyone know whether that's a common first name in Ireland?

          Martha
          [Sorry about any voice recognition errors I've missed.]

          --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Alfred Neuman <shortroad2paradise@...> wrote:
          >
          > My name is Bowes, pronounced as you described, I have been observing this site for some time now, however I never responded, until now.  I am interested in more recent history of the Bowes name and family.  From what I have been able to discover, so far, is that my family originated in Ireland (I have no record prior to their arrival in Canada around 1825), immigration record only reflect Ireland as his home, his name was David Bowes, born in 1810 and died in1889, in Whitby, Ontario. Many of the descendants have spread across Canada and the USA.  I am originally from the Buffalo area of NY.  Any information would be of value to myself and family.
          > Thank you,  Dale Bowes   
          >
          > --- On Wed, 10/13/10, Jeane Robinson <jbowes110@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Jeane Robinson <jbowes110@...>
          > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] origins
          > To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Wednesday, October 13, 2010, 3:47 PM
          >
          >
          >
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          > My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?
          >


        • bowes2000
          Well within my family our name has been variously recorded as Bow, Bowes (pronounced as in Bows on a gift)and finally Bowe
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 13, 2010
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            Well within my family our name has been variously recorded as Bow, Bowes (pronounced as in Bows on a gift)and finally Bowe

            --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeane Robinson <jbowes110@...> wrote:
            >
            > My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons
            > and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?
            >
          • 2Maxwells
            The name has always been Bowe in my family and that goes back to 1795. In my family the name has always been pronounced like the archery bow. There was a
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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              The name has always been Bowe in my family and that goes back to 1795.  In my family the name has always been pronounced like the archery bow.

               

              There was a daughter born in Digby, Nova Scotia in 1832 named Ann Carroll Bowe.  The other children and there was a total of 20 children that Will Bowe fathered with 2 wives - either don't have a middle name or it is Ann or James or Edward, etc.  There are a few exceptions that also sound like they are named for a surname for someone - such as Fairbanks, Morrison and Cuttler.  Don't know that this adds anything but with the Carroll connection it is interesting!

               

              Helen

               

               

              From: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeane Robinson
              Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:48 PM
              To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [bowesgenealogy] origins

               

               

              My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?

               

            • Diane Bowe
              Interesting -My husband s father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can t prove it -he
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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                Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840 - the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
                The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
                Diane Bowe

                --- On Thu, 10/14/10, 2Maxwells <2maxwells@...> wrote:

                From: 2Maxwells <2maxwells@...>
                Subject: RE: [bowesgenealogy] origins
                To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                Received: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 12:06 PM

                 

                The name has always been Bowe in my family and that goes back to 1795.  In my family the name has always been pronounced like the archery bow.

                 

                There was a daughter born in Digby, Nova Scotia in 1832 named Ann Carroll Bowe.  The other children and there was a total of 20 children that Will Bowe fathered with 2 wives - either don't have a middle name or it is Ann or James or Edward, etc.  There are a few exceptions that also sound like they are named for a surname for someone - such as Fairbanks, Morrison and Cuttler.  Don't know that this adds anything but with the Carroll connection it is interesting!

                 

                Helen

                 

                 

                From: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeane Robinson
                Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:48 PM
                To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [bowesgenealogy] origins

                 

                 

                My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?

                 


              • Diane Bowe
                ...   Interesting -My husband s father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can t prove
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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                  :


                   

                   

                  Helen

                   

                   

                  From: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeane Robinson
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 1:48 PM
                  To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [bowesgenealogy] origins

                   

                   

                  My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?

                   

                  Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840 - the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
                  The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
                  Diane Bowe

                  --- On Thu, 10/14/10, 2Maxwells <2maxwells@...> wrote:

                  From: 2Maxwells <2maxwells@...>
                  Subject: RE: [bowesgenealogy] origins
                  To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Thursday, October 14, 2010, 12:06 PM

                   

                  The name has always been Bowe in my family and that goes back to 1795.  In my family the name has always been pronounced like the archery bow.

                   

                  There was a daughter born in Digby, Nova Scotia in 1832 named Ann Carroll Bowe.  The other children and there was a total of 20 children that Will Bowe fathered with 2 wives - either don't have a middle name or it is Ann or James or Edward, etc.  There are a few exceptions that also sound like they are named for a surname for someone - such as Fairbanks, Morrison and Cuttler.  Don't know that this adds anything but with the Carroll connection it is interesting!



                • mhbowes11
                  Hi Dale, I checked with another correspondent whose family descends from Clones, Fermanagh, since the 1600s–settlers from Scotland. He went through his
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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                    Hi Dale,

                    I checked with another correspondent whose family descends from Clones, Fermanagh, since the 1600s–settlers from Scotland. He went through his family file but could not find a David Bowes born in 1810. I was hoping I might strike gold for you there.

                    Now that I know what you are looking for I will keep my eyes out.

                    Martha

                    --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Alfred Neuman <shortroad2paradise@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am certain about the name David, since he was a Protestant, I assumed he came from Northern Ireland, if that helps.  Most of the records I have placed them in Pickering Twp in Ontario Co.,Ontario,CN  David was married to Severina, in 1843 they had a son Edward.  Edward moved to Morris, Manitoba to farm. In 1892 he and his wife,Amelia moved to Buffalo,NY.  I would be most interested in locating David's place of birth in Ireland in 1810.  The rest of the information, I have, and would share with you, if you would like, up to the present.
                    >
                  • mhbowes11
                    My family was always Bowes since emigrating during the potato famine, but they said they were related to a Bowe family who also lived in the farming
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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                      My family was always Bowes since emigrating during the potato famine, but they said they were related to a Bowe family who also lived in the farming communities west of Syracuse, New York. I found a marriage record in New York for my great-grandfather where his name was spelled Bow. Later I found his grandfather's marriage record in Ireland and he was Bowe. He appears as Bowes, however, in the Griffiths Valuation. My line matches two other lines that have both emigrated but retained the Bowe name. We also match to other surnames but that's another story…

                      Martha

                      --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well within my family our name has been variously recorded as Bow, Bowes (pronounced as in Bows on a gift)and finally Bowe
                      >
                      > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeane Robinson <jbowes110@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > My mother's maiden name was Bowes. It was pronounced by the family like buttons
                      > > and bows. How did YOUR family pronounce your name?
                      > >
                      >
                    • mhbowes11
                      Hi Diane, Except that you also now have further proof that he came from Ireland based on your Bowe/s DNA matches, at least one of them a pretty close match,
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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                        Hi Diane,

                        Except that you also now have further proof that he came from Ireland based on your Bowe/s DNA matches, at least one of them a pretty close match, that are known to be from Kilkenny and Tipperary. It is most likely that your immigrant came from somewhere around there, so that's an improvement over Ireland as a whole.

                        For those who don't know, Diane and I are in the same subgroup matching another Bowe, along with a Crowley from Cork and a Pearse from Devon. It's my suspicion that the Bowe branch began with a Pearse son born in Ireland raised in the Bowe family from the Tipperary/Kilkenny/Laois area. Devon and Munster had strong links during the Elizabethan plantation of Ireland, and our genetic distance to Pearse suggests a common ancestor since that time. While Pearse's family is Church of England, I believe all three Bowe lines were all Roman Catholic and culturally Irish by the time they emigrated. I know mine was. Just my best hypothesis at present.

                        Our Crowley match from Cork, where the Crowley name has a high frequency if not its highest, probably also started as a Pearse son raised in a Crowley family. His connection to Pearse is more recent than ours, so it could be a different kind of story there.

                        As with all the subgroups, we wait for additional data to help refine our notions.

                        Martha
                        [Sorry for any voice recognition errors I've missed.]

                        --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:

                        the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
                        > The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
                        > Diane Bowe
                      • Jeane Robinson
                        Checking 123 123 can you hear me now? ________________________________ From: mhbowes11 To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 14, 2010
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                          Checking 123 123 can you hear me now?


                          From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
                          To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thu, October 14, 2010 11:37:48 PM
                          Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: origins

                           

                          Hi Diane,

                          Except that you also now have further proof that he came from Ireland based on your Bowe/s DNA matches, at least one of them a pretty close match, that are known to be from Kilkenny and Tipperary. It is most likely that your immigrant came from somewhere around there, so that's an improvement over Ireland as a whole.

                          For those who don't know, Diane and I are in the same subgroup matching another Bowe, along with a Crowley from Cork and a Pearse from Devon. It's my suspicion that the Bowe branch began with a Pearse son born in Ireland raised in the Bowe family from the Tipperary/Kilkenny/Laois area. Devon and Munster had strong links during the Elizabethan plantation of Ireland, and our genetic distance to Pearse suggests a common ancestor since that time. While Pearse's family is Church of England, I believe all three Bowe lines were all Roman Catholic and culturally Irish by the time they emigrated. I know mine was. Just my best hypothesis at present.

                          Our Crowley match from Cork, where the Crowley name has a high frequency if not its highest, probably also started as a Pearse son raised in a Crowley family. His connection to Pearse is more recent than ours, so it could be a different kind of story there.

                          As with all the subgroups, we wait for additional data to help refine our notions.

                          Martha
                          [Sorry for any voice recognition errors I've missed.]

                          --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:

                          the only proof I have of his origin was the cemetary record said Ireland - said he was born 1800 and died 1890- it sure is hard to get over the big  pond to see where they emigrated from - I have no idea of where they landed nor what ship it might have been
                          > The name changed to Bowe in the census records along the way
                          > Diane Bowe


                        • Martha H. Bowes
                          321 321 we can hear you now in threaded mode!
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 15, 2010
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                            321 321 we can hear you now in threaded mode!
                          • mhbowes11
                            Diane, I just found a reference in Modern Ireland 1600-1972 by RF Foster, p. 13, [by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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                              Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.

                              Martha

                              --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                              >
                            • bowes2000
                              An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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                                An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.

                                --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                                >
                                > Martha
                                >
                                > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                                > >
                                >
                              • mhbowes11
                                You are right about that. I have a map here called Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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                                  You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."

                                  --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                                  >
                                  > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                                  > >
                                  > > Martha
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • mhbowes11
                                  1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 16, 2010
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                                    1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)

                                    --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."
                                    >
                                    > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Martha
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • bowes2000
                                    That s the feller alright, what a bunch of bully-boys those Normans were, can confirm that Roache is a name found along the Suir Valley in Tipperary, an area
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Oct 17, 2010
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                                      That's the feller alright, what a bunch of bully-boys those Normans were, can confirm that Roache is a name found along the Suir Valley in Tipperary, an area that came under Norman control. Oh and while I tink about it, you may wish to research theuse of 'bows' in Ireland, I could have this all wrong, but my understanding is that they were not used in Ireland until their introduction, probably via the Norman-Cambro invasion. If that is the case it requires a re-examination of any claimed origin of the Bowes/Bowe etc Irish name as deriving from that weapon, since the name may well have preceded the arrival of the bow by centuries.

                                      --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > 1167, Richard fitz Godbert de Roche, first Norman knight to land in Ireland. So says Wikipedia so it must be true ;-)
                                      >
                                      > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > You are right about that. I have a map here called "Ireland 1300-1600: Map showing the location of the principal Gaelic septs together with the leading families of Norman origin (the latter being indicated in purple ink)." Sure enough, down there in Cork appears Roche in purple ink. In addition, a footnote in the prior page in Foster's "Modern Ireland," after he first uses the term Old English, clarifies: "The use of this term may be slightly anachronistic for 1600. A text like Advertisements for Ireland, 1623, distinguishes between 'the English–Irish' and `Irish gentleman of the English Pale' [presumably planters] like the Dillons. `The English of Irish birth' remained a general term up to this time, `Old English' occurring as an adjective rather than as a noun. `Anglo–Irish', often in Latin, also appears. But for clarity's sake, the term `Old English' will be adopted here from 1600 on."
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@> wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > An offering to add to the pot, as far as I recall the Roaches arrived in Ireland as part of the Norman-Cambro (Welsh) invasion/colonization, I have an understanding it to be a Norman name/origin and not 'English' in the sense usually understood. Hope that adds a little light.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, "mhbowes11" <mhbowes11@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Diane, I just found a reference in "Modern Ireland 1600-1972" by RF Foster, p. 13, "[by 1600] Old English families like the Barrys and Roches of Cork had completely Gaelicized." I find almost 5000 Roches in the Griffith's Valuation, some in Kilkenny where my family is from (matches you), also in Tipperary where our other Bowe match's family is from. Slight spelling difference, but certainly could be a connection in there.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Martha
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Diane Bowe <dianebowe2002@> wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Interesting -My husband's father was named Roache as a first name  -how is that for original -I assume a family name somewhere in there but can't prove it -he came from the John Bow line who settled in the Goulds Newfoundland about 1840
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
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