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Re: [bowesvariantsdna] Re: Bowes Coat of Arms Enquiry

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  • Allen Bowes
    Martha it is of course possible that Bulmer s scpeticism was misplaced, however we are still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
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      Martha it is of course possible that Bulmer's scpeticism was misplaced, however we are still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called Bogis, itself of Saxon origin, that predates the de Arcubus story by several hundred years. Regards

      --- On Sun, 4/1/09, mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...> wrote:
      From: mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...>
      Subject: [bowesvariantsdna] Re: Bowes Coat of Arms Enquiry
      To: bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, 4 January, 2009, 2:20 AM

      I also find this:

      "Heralds have been associated with households of royalty and nobility since the 12th
      Century. In early times they might perform duties as diplomats, messengers or army staff
      officers and possess great knowledge of the symbols used to adorn shields and banners."

      At:

      http://www.burkes- peerage.net/ articles/ re_collegeofarms .aspx

      I'm beginning to wonder if Bulmer (quoted at Genuki) was wrong and the other text was
      right. Bulmer might have thought arms only came into use when their function had just
      changed from battle and contest use, to more status-driven symbolic and antiquarian use?

      I'm beginning to wonder where the "glaring" oversight was in the William de Arcubus story.
      Maybe I just need sleep.


    • mhbowes11
      ... still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called Bogis, itself of Saxon origin, that predates the de Arcubus story by several hundred
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
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        --- In bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > Martha it is of course possible that Bulmer's scpeticism was misplaced, however we are
        still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called Bogis, itself of Saxon
        origin, that predates the de Arcubus story by several hundred years. Regards
        >
        Jeff, I think where our conversation may be getting a little confused is that when I think of
        the English origin of the surname, I automatically think in terms of all possible English
        Bowes *lineages,* for which, as we agree, there are probably multiple origins from
        England, albeit (at least mostly) stemming from the same general area (as shown in
        surname distribution maps). From that perspective it has sounded confusing to me to look
        for "a" Bowes origin in England. But I think I see now that you are not speaking so much
        of the origin*s* of different English Bowes lineages, as you are looking for first
        occurrences and uses of the name there and how it came about. And perhaps all English
        Bowes ultimately have their surname origin in the place name, as opposed to links to
        heroic deeds and an army of archers or some other lineage stories that could emerge. If I
        had realized your perspective before, I wouldn't have misunderstood your desire to lay to
        rest the notion that William de Arcubus is the "original origin" of the surname. I
        wholeheartedly agree that he isn't. I think your research showing the Anglo Saxon and
        Danish influence and early place names does signify the first use of some version of the
        name Bowes in England. Whether there's a William de Arcubus progenitor of one lineage is
        an interesting topic for the Bowes One-Name Study because so many people with the
        name believe the story and there's indication it may be inaccurate at best, completely
        wrong at worst. So for the One-Name Study I think it's important to research that as much
        as possible.
      • Allen Bowes
        Martha,   Apologies if my comments have generated any misunderstanding, you are correct to note that my interest, as it relates to the Bowes name in England,
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
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          Martha,
           
          Apologies if my comments have generated any misunderstanding, you are correct to note that my interest, as it relates to the Bowes name in England, concentrates upon its origins and historic association with County Durham. 
           
          The name is closely linked with North Yorkshire, County Durham and Cumbria and appears to be derived from the Old English/Saxon word Bogas. The present villages of Bowes, although home to Bowes castle, with its legend of WIlliam de Arcubus and the possible granting of coats-of-arms and the name itself, was originally named as Bogis and is located in a region that came under significant Saxon settlement, being part of the Kingdom of Northumbria.
           
          The English Bowes surname may indeed have been later associated with this settlement, and its intersting to note that Bowes appears still in its highest concentration in the County of Durham. It also has some, albeit less frequent, association with Norfolk in East Anglia and Lancashire in North West England. In addition we must not overlook the existence of the Bowe surname in England, which may well have been recorded as Bowes, or been given an 's' to notify the person as being  the son of Bowe.
           
          Regards

          --- On Sun, 4/1/09, mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...> wrote:
          From: mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...>
          Subject: [bowesvariantsdna] Bowes Origins in England
          To: bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, 4 January, 2009, 4:46 PM

          --- In bowesvariantsdna@ yahoogroups. com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@. ..> wrote:
          >
          > Martha it is of course possible that Bulmer's scpeticism was misplaced, however we are
          still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called Bogis, itself of Saxon
          origin, that predates the de Arcubus story by several hundred years. Regards
          >
          Jeff, I think where our conversation may be getting a little confused is that when I think of
          the English origin of the surname, I automatically think in terms of all possible English
          Bowes *lineages,* for which, as we agree, there are probably multiple origins from
          England, albeit (at least mostly) stemming from the same general area (as shown in
          surname distribution maps). From that perspective it has sounded confusing to me to look
          for "a" Bowes origin in England. But I think I see now that you are not speaking so much
          of the origin*s* of different English Bowes lineages, as you are looking for first
          occurrences and uses of the name there and how it came about. And perhaps all English
          Bowes ultimately have their surname origin in the place name, as opposed to links to
          heroic deeds and an army of archers or some other lineage stories that could emerge. If I
          had realized your perspective before, I wouldn't have misunderstood your desire to lay to
          rest the notion that William de Arcubus is the "original origin" of the surname. I
          wholeheartedly agree that he isn't. I think your research showing the Anglo Saxon and
          Danish influence and early place names does signify the first use of some version of the
          name Bowes in England. Whether there's a William de Arcubus progenitor of one lineage is
          an interesting topic for the Bowes One-Name Study because so many people with the
          name believe the story and there's indication it may be inaccurate at best, completely
          wrong at worst. So for the One-Name Study I think it's important to research that as much
          as possible.


        • mhbowes11
          ... Not at all. We re bound to have a few more along the way for whatever reasons, given the many related topics and ways of approaching them. ... I have
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
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            --- In bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...> wrote:
            >
            > Martha,
            >
            > Apologies if my comments have generated any misunderstanding,

            Not at all. We're bound to have a few more along the way for whatever reasons, given the
            many related topics and ways of approaching them.

            > The name ... also has some, albeit less frequent, association with Norfolk in East
            >Anglia and Lancashire in North West England.

            I have thought this was probably mostly due to people of the surname spreading outward
            from the "core" locations you mention. Conceivably some could have adopted the name in
            or outside of the core area when surnames came along who had never been around the
            settlement of Bowes or genetically related to a Bowes family, for whatever unique reasons,
            but usually for some reason wanting an association with a family by that name. I read this
            sort of thing happened a lot in Ireland long ago and surmise it would have been the case
            in England too. In communications with a fella at the Bowes Museum some years back, he
            mentioned that some would take a name associated with an estate they worked on. Not
            necessarily vast estates of noblemen, but even smaller landholders who had help.

            > In addition we must not overlook the existence of the Bowe surname in England, which
            > may well have been recorded as Bowes, or been given an 's' to notify the person as
            >being the son of Bowe.

            Yes, and it makes me curious about the fact that the Bowe version was concentrated in
            Kilkenny, while Bowes more so in Dublin. My Bowe line from Kilkenny (learned it was Bowe
            before the emigrants made it Bowes in mid-1800s), and another Bowe from Ireland but
            doesn't know the county, are Anglo-Saxon (project subgroup Hg I1 Grp 3). There is
            another project member whose Bowes line is from Dublin who is R1b. It would be
            interesting to see where the haplogroups cluster in Ireland and by what name variant - to
            look for patterns. I'll have to see what else we have so far for that.

            I'd love to see more Bowe-s from Kilkenny area test and see if Anglo-Saxon rules or
            predominates as a related haplogroup-surnamevariant cluster there, or whether there are
            separate genetic Bowe lineages from there. This raises a slightly different question ...
            what is the origin of the Bowe surname in Ireland when the HG is Anglo-Saxon and
            assuming - given the dominance of this version in Kilkenny - it's not a case of Bowes with
            a dropped "s."? It may have nothing to do with the village of Bowes if all the early
            phonetics of the area end in "s" (I'll have to check your list again, but I think they all had
            the "s" sound at the end.

            And might some have taken the Bowe surname from some other river bend or arch where
            they lived when they took the surname?

            My brain power - what there is of it - is waning as a cold comes on again.

            Thanks for all the stimulation and patience. You've spent a lot of time on this, Jeff, and it
            shows. Martha
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