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Re: [bowesgenealogy] Irish Roots Getting More Complex

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  • Allen Bowes
    Martha, see my other mail, best wishes ________________________________ From: mhbowes11 To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com Sent:
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 22, 2010
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      Martha, see my other mail, best wishes


      From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
      To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, 22 January, 2010 3:56:49
      Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Irish Roots Getting More Complex

       

      I got to thinking about Buadhaigh's brothers: Ealathach (Healy), Cathalan (Cahalan), Maolin (?) and Croinin (Cronin). I had always thought, somewhat naïvely, that finding a genetic connection between one of our lineages and a Cronin lineage might help support the recorded origin of our surname in Ireland. The same would be true of any genetic connections found with Healy, Cahalan, M?, or Bogue.

      If you search the 1911 Census (http://www.census. nationalarchives .ie/search/ #searchmore) for Cronin, there is a very large segment of them in Cork, which is fairly common knowledge anyway. Likewise Healy. If you search for Bogue, there are only two families in Cork, and the remaining 37 are outside Cork, mostly in the north and those probably of Scottish origin. What might this suggest about the alleged connection between Bogue and Buadhaigh? Wouldn't we expect to see many more Bogues in Cork in the 1911 census? For Cahalan we find only six of 43 in Cork, with most in Tipperary and in Galway. Certainly, some genetic lines just die out in a given location and don't continue on the human tree there, even while carrying on elsewhere. (I forget the term for that in genetic genealogy.)

      Checking the FTDNA database I find 29 Healys, 3 Bogues, 2 Cathalans, 0 Maoilins and 9 Cronins. Assuming all of these individuals have selected on their personal page to check their results against the entire database, there are so far no connections between anyone in our study and these individuals, but all of these studies are still small.

      I don't think we can conclude much from this but thought I would report.

      In addition, I find this page pointing up uncertainties as to the true origin of the Cronin surname: http://homepages. paradise. net.nz/hanson/ origin.html, illustrating just how difficult it can be to tease out the ancient past in Ireland.

      Found on that page is the following paragraph:

      "It is worth mentioning at this point that these septs were not a family of blood relatives but a clan (or subdivision of a tribe) the members of which may or may not have been related. Surnames were not in common usage at the time but when they did become more common in the eleventh century the sept name of an individual's ancestor was a popular choice."

      Trying to wrap my brain around this, it looks like even before surnames came into use a sept would have contained different genetic lines, and then when surnames came into use these different lines would commonly look back to a sept of origin to choose a surname. That means that not finding a genetic connection with the "related surnames" of Healy, Bogue, Cahalan, Maoilin and Cronin does not rule out that some Bowe and Bowes lineages can claim historical (but not necessarily genetic) origins with the O'Buadhaigh sept, along with some lineages of these other surnames (not that we have proven these roots for anyone yet). In fact, doesn't it suggest the possibility that some Bowe and Bowes lines, while not genetically related, could nevertheless share an historical past with the Ui Buadhaigh? Meanwhile, the possibility of finding genetic sameness may still be there.


    • mhbowes11
      I should have clarified that this particular line of inquiry would have to do with the Eoghanacta account of the Irish origins, as opposed to the Corca Laoidhe
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 22, 2010
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        I should have clarified that this particular line of inquiry would have to do with the Eoghanacta account of the Irish origins, as opposed to the Corca Laoidhe account. http://www.bowesonenamestudy.com/findings_2/origins/general_irish.html I am also leaning toward the likelihood that if either account is accurate it is probably the Corca one. The part below about different genetic lines with our surname possibly sharing a non-genetic history within the O'Buadhaigh sept could apply to either account I think.



        --- In bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...> wrote:
        >
        > Martha, see my other mail, best wishes
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: mhbowes11 <martha.bowes@...>
        > To: bowesgenealogy@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Fri, 22 January, 2010 3:56:49
        > Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Irish Roots Getting More Complex
        >
        >  
        > I got to thinking about Buadhaigh's brothers: Ealathach (Healy), Cathalan (Cahalan), Maolin (?) and Croinin (Cronin). I had always thought, somewhat naïvely, that finding a genetic connection between one of our lineages and a Cronin lineage might help support the recorded origin of our surname in Ireland. The same would be true of any genetic connections found with Healy, Cahalan, M?, or Bogue.
        >
        > If you search the 1911 Census (http://www.census. nationalarchives .ie/search/ #searchmore) for Cronin, there is a very large segment of them in Cork, which is fairly common knowledge anyway. Likewise Healy. If you search for Bogue, there are only two families in Cork, and the remaining 37 are outside Cork, mostly in the north and those probably of Scottish origin. What might this suggest about the alleged connection between Bogue and Buadhaigh? Wouldn't we expect to see many more Bogues in Cork in the 1911 census? For Cahalan we find only six of 43 in Cork, with most in Tipperary and in Galway. Certainly, some genetic lines just die out in a given location and don't continue on the human tree there, even while carrying on elsewhere. (I forget the term for that in genetic genealogy.)
        >
        > Checking the FTDNA database I find 29 Healys, 3 Bogues, 2 Cathalans, 0 Maoilins and 9 Cronins. Assuming all of these individuals have selected on their personal page to check their results against the entire database, there are so far no connections between anyone in our study and these individuals, but all of these studies are still small.
        >
        > I don't think we can conclude much from this but thought I would report.
        >
        > In addition, I find this page pointing up uncertainties as to the true origin of the Cronin surname: http://homepages. paradise. net.nz/hanson/ origin.html, illustrating just how difficult it can be to tease out the ancient past in Ireland.
        >
        > Found on that page is the following paragraph:
        >
        > "It is worth mentioning at this point that these septs were not a family of blood relatives but a clan (or subdivision of a tribe) the members of which may or may not have been related. Surnames were not in common usage at the time but when they did become more common in the eleventh century the sept name of an individual's ancestor was a popular choice."
        >
        > Trying to wrap my brain around this, it looks like even before surnames came into use a sept would have contained different genetic lines, and then when surnames came into use these different lines would commonly look back to a sept of origin to choose a surname. That means that not finding a genetic connection with the "related surnames" of Healy, Bogue, Cahalan, Maoilin and Cronin does not rule out that some Bowe and Bowes lineages can claim historical (but not necessarily genetic) origins with the O'Buadhaigh sept, along with some lineages of these other surnames (not that we have proven these roots for anyone yet). In fact, doesn't it suggest the possibility that some Bowe and Bowes lines, while not genetically related, could nevertheless share an historical past with the Ui Buadhaigh? Meanwhile, the possibility of finding genetic sameness may still be there.
        >
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