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Re: Bowes Coat of Arms Enquiry

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  • mhbowes11
    I also find this: Heralds have been associated with households of royalty and nobility since the 12th Century. In early times they might perform duties as
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 3, 2009
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      I also find this:

      "Heralds have been associated with households of royalty and nobility since the 12th
      Century. In early times they might perform duties as diplomats, messengers or army staff
      officers and possess great knowledge of the symbols used to adorn shields and banners."

      At:

      http://www.burkes-peerage.net/articles/re_collegeofarms.aspx

      I'm beginning to wonder if Bulmer (quoted at Genuki) was wrong and the other text was
      right. Bulmer might have thought arms only came into use when their function had just
      changed from battle and contest use, to more status-driven symbolic and antiquarian use?

      I'm beginning to wonder where the "glaring" oversight was in the William de Arcubus story.
      Maybe I just need sleep.
    • Allen Bowes
      Let us hope some more convincing outcome is possible, I however cannot rid myself of a feeling that the de Arcubus account was cobbled together to add a little
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
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        Let us hope some more convincing outcome is possible, I however cannot rid myself of a feeling that the de Arcubus account was cobbled together to add a little aristocratic gloss to that Bowes line which was marrywing into the Lyon family. Common practice to add a certain gravitas by cooking the family pedigree. Look forward to see what response you get. Regards,

        --- On Sun, 4/1/09, mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...> wrote:
        From: mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...>
        Subject: [bowesvariantsdna] Bowes Coat of Arms Enquiry
        To: bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, 4 January, 2009, 2:07 AM

        I decided to take this to the top source in the galaxy and submitted the following at the
        College of Arms website. I stretched the possibility that the Arcubus might be true
        because I had to prove I'd read the website or they say they might not answer. It was this
        line there that made me feel I should find out from the College what *is* the story of the
        Bowes COA, whatever it is: "In mediaeval times, there were heralds in the service both of
        the monarch and of certain great noblemen. Heralds were part of the royal household in
        the thirteenth century and perhaps as early as the twelfth century." I think that covers
        when the Bowes Castle was built? I fear the fee will be steep to get this information:

        "I am registering the Bowes surname for a One-Name Study through the Guild of One-
        Name Studies, so I am studying all Bowes pedigrees. I am not personally interested in
        using the Bowes coat of arms. There is confusion among Bowes researchers about when,
        where and how the Bowes COA originated. In 1838 John Burke wrote ""A Genealogical and
        Heraldic History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland" and quoted a monastery
        manuscript asserting the Bowes COA stems from the time of a contemporary of William
        the Conqueror. Confusion among Bowes researchers arises from Bulmer's History and
        Directory of North Yorkshire (1890): "There is a tradition recorded in a MS. which belonged
        to the monastery of St. Mary, York, and related in the Bowes pedigree, that Alan Niger,
        Earl of Richmond, in defence of the honor against the men of Cumberland and
        Westmoreland, who rebelled against the Conqueror, and with Gospatric, Earl of
        Northumberland, adhered to the King of Scots, built for himself the tower of Bowes, and
        placed therein his cousin William with 500 archers, and gave him a shield with the arms of
        Brittany, and three bows over them; and a bundle of arrows for his crest, whence this
        William was afterwards called William de Arcubus. This done into English is Bowes (bows)
        which became the surname of his descendants. Unfortunately for the truth of the
        tradition, there is a glaring anachronism. Crests and coats of arms did not come into use
        in England till long after the time of Earl Alan. From the researches of General Harrison
        among the Pipe Rolls, it appears that the castle was begun by Henry II. in 1171, and
        completely finished in 1187, at a cost of £353. Osbert, son of Fulco de Bowes, was one of
        the King's commissioners for superintending the erection of the castle, and this appears
        to have been the only connection the family had with the fortress." Looking at the
        College's history page it appears not impossible that the arms were granted in the 12th c..
        Can the College confirm, deny or clarify this story? If it is wrong, when, where, to whom,
        and why was the Bowes COA granted?

        Regards, Martha Bowes


      • Allen Bowes
        Martha it is of course possible that Bulmer s scpeticism was misplaced, however we are still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
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          Martha it is of course possible that Bulmer's scpeticism was misplaced, however we are still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called Bogis, itself of Saxon origin, that predates the de Arcubus story by several hundred years. Regards

          --- On Sun, 4/1/09, mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...> wrote:
          From: mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...>
          Subject: [bowesvariantsdna] Re: Bowes Coat of Arms Enquiry
          To: bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, 4 January, 2009, 2:20 AM

          I also find this:

          "Heralds have been associated with households of royalty and nobility since the 12th
          Century. In early times they might perform duties as diplomats, messengers or army staff
          officers and possess great knowledge of the symbols used to adorn shields and banners."

          At:

          http://www.burkes- peerage.net/ articles/ re_collegeofarms .aspx

          I'm beginning to wonder if Bulmer (quoted at Genuki) was wrong and the other text was
          right. Bulmer might have thought arms only came into use when their function had just
          changed from battle and contest use, to more status-driven symbolic and antiquarian use?

          I'm beginning to wonder where the "glaring" oversight was in the William de Arcubus story.
          Maybe I just need sleep.


        • mhbowes11
          ... still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called Bogis, itself of Saxon origin, that predates the de Arcubus story by several hundred
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
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            --- In bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...> wrote:
            >
            > Martha it is of course possible that Bulmer's scpeticism was misplaced, however we are
            still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called Bogis, itself of Saxon
            origin, that predates the de Arcubus story by several hundred years. Regards
            >
            Jeff, I think where our conversation may be getting a little confused is that when I think of
            the English origin of the surname, I automatically think in terms of all possible English
            Bowes *lineages,* for which, as we agree, there are probably multiple origins from
            England, albeit (at least mostly) stemming from the same general area (as shown in
            surname distribution maps). From that perspective it has sounded confusing to me to look
            for "a" Bowes origin in England. But I think I see now that you are not speaking so much
            of the origin*s* of different English Bowes lineages, as you are looking for first
            occurrences and uses of the name there and how it came about. And perhaps all English
            Bowes ultimately have their surname origin in the place name, as opposed to links to
            heroic deeds and an army of archers or some other lineage stories that could emerge. If I
            had realized your perspective before, I wouldn't have misunderstood your desire to lay to
            rest the notion that William de Arcubus is the "original origin" of the surname. I
            wholeheartedly agree that he isn't. I think your research showing the Anglo Saxon and
            Danish influence and early place names does signify the first use of some version of the
            name Bowes in England. Whether there's a William de Arcubus progenitor of one lineage is
            an interesting topic for the Bowes One-Name Study because so many people with the
            name believe the story and there's indication it may be inaccurate at best, completely
            wrong at worst. So for the One-Name Study I think it's important to research that as much
            as possible.
          • Allen Bowes
            Martha,   Apologies if my comments have generated any misunderstanding, you are correct to note that my interest, as it relates to the Bowes name in England,
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
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              Martha,
               
              Apologies if my comments have generated any misunderstanding, you are correct to note that my interest, as it relates to the Bowes name in England, concentrates upon its origins and historic association with County Durham. 
               
              The name is closely linked with North Yorkshire, County Durham and Cumbria and appears to be derived from the Old English/Saxon word Bogas. The present villages of Bowes, although home to Bowes castle, with its legend of WIlliam de Arcubus and the possible granting of coats-of-arms and the name itself, was originally named as Bogis and is located in a region that came under significant Saxon settlement, being part of the Kingdom of Northumbria.
               
              The English Bowes surname may indeed have been later associated with this settlement, and its intersting to note that Bowes appears still in its highest concentration in the County of Durham. It also has some, albeit less frequent, association with Norfolk in East Anglia and Lancashire in North West England. In addition we must not overlook the existence of the Bowe surname in England, which may well have been recorded as Bowes, or been given an 's' to notify the person as being  the son of Bowe.
               
              Regards

              --- On Sun, 4/1/09, mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...> wrote:
              From: mhbowes11 <mhbowes@...>
              Subject: [bowesvariantsdna] Bowes Origins in England
              To: bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, 4 January, 2009, 4:46 PM

              --- In bowesvariantsdna@ yahoogroups. com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > Martha it is of course possible that Bulmer's scpeticism was misplaced, however we are
              still kleft with the fact that Bowes village was previously called Bogis, itself of Saxon
              origin, that predates the de Arcubus story by several hundred years. Regards
              >
              Jeff, I think where our conversation may be getting a little confused is that when I think of
              the English origin of the surname, I automatically think in terms of all possible English
              Bowes *lineages,* for which, as we agree, there are probably multiple origins from
              England, albeit (at least mostly) stemming from the same general area (as shown in
              surname distribution maps). From that perspective it has sounded confusing to me to look
              for "a" Bowes origin in England. But I think I see now that you are not speaking so much
              of the origin*s* of different English Bowes lineages, as you are looking for first
              occurrences and uses of the name there and how it came about. And perhaps all English
              Bowes ultimately have their surname origin in the place name, as opposed to links to
              heroic deeds and an army of archers or some other lineage stories that could emerge. If I
              had realized your perspective before, I wouldn't have misunderstood your desire to lay to
              rest the notion that William de Arcubus is the "original origin" of the surname. I
              wholeheartedly agree that he isn't. I think your research showing the Anglo Saxon and
              Danish influence and early place names does signify the first use of some version of the
              name Bowes in England. Whether there's a William de Arcubus progenitor of one lineage is
              an interesting topic for the Bowes One-Name Study because so many people with the
              name believe the story and there's indication it may be inaccurate at best, completely
              wrong at worst. So for the One-Name Study I think it's important to research that as much
              as possible.


            • mhbowes11
              ... Not at all. We re bound to have a few more along the way for whatever reasons, given the many related topics and ways of approaching them. ... I have
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 4, 2009
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                --- In bowesvariantsdna@yahoogroups.com, Allen Bowes <bowes2000@...> wrote:
                >
                > Martha,
                >
                > Apologies if my comments have generated any misunderstanding,

                Not at all. We're bound to have a few more along the way for whatever reasons, given the
                many related topics and ways of approaching them.

                > The name ... also has some, albeit less frequent, association with Norfolk in East
                >Anglia and Lancashire in North West England.

                I have thought this was probably mostly due to people of the surname spreading outward
                from the "core" locations you mention. Conceivably some could have adopted the name in
                or outside of the core area when surnames came along who had never been around the
                settlement of Bowes or genetically related to a Bowes family, for whatever unique reasons,
                but usually for some reason wanting an association with a family by that name. I read this
                sort of thing happened a lot in Ireland long ago and surmise it would have been the case
                in England too. In communications with a fella at the Bowes Museum some years back, he
                mentioned that some would take a name associated with an estate they worked on. Not
                necessarily vast estates of noblemen, but even smaller landholders who had help.

                > In addition we must not overlook the existence of the Bowe surname in England, which
                > may well have been recorded as Bowes, or been given an 's' to notify the person as
                >being the son of Bowe.

                Yes, and it makes me curious about the fact that the Bowe version was concentrated in
                Kilkenny, while Bowes more so in Dublin. My Bowe line from Kilkenny (learned it was Bowe
                before the emigrants made it Bowes in mid-1800s), and another Bowe from Ireland but
                doesn't know the county, are Anglo-Saxon (project subgroup Hg I1 Grp 3). There is
                another project member whose Bowes line is from Dublin who is R1b. It would be
                interesting to see where the haplogroups cluster in Ireland and by what name variant - to
                look for patterns. I'll have to see what else we have so far for that.

                I'd love to see more Bowe-s from Kilkenny area test and see if Anglo-Saxon rules or
                predominates as a related haplogroup-surnamevariant cluster there, or whether there are
                separate genetic Bowe lineages from there. This raises a slightly different question ...
                what is the origin of the Bowe surname in Ireland when the HG is Anglo-Saxon and
                assuming - given the dominance of this version in Kilkenny - it's not a case of Bowes with
                a dropped "s."? It may have nothing to do with the village of Bowes if all the early
                phonetics of the area end in "s" (I'll have to check your list again, but I think they all had
                the "s" sound at the end.

                And might some have taken the Bowe surname from some other river bend or arch where
                they lived when they took the surname?

                My brain power - what there is of it - is waning as a cold comes on again.

                Thanks for all the stimulation and patience. You've spent a lot of time on this, Jeff, and it
                shows. Martha
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