254Re: [bowesgenealogy] Re: trip to ireland - Bowe in Ireland Origins
- May 18, 2011Martha, thanks for the detailed information and clarifications, for which I am grateful, there appears to be some lines, as your findings imply, tracing to the Ely Caroll, my contribution was airing an obvious (maybe overlooked) consideration, namely that the Bowe (variants) name; while having traditional association with Cork, Tipperary and your own families part of Eire, has been recognized by those with an interest as being fairly scattered, not say with such numerous or strong associations with specific locales as other Irish names. On that basis alone, it would be adventurous to conclude, even with limited genetic indications, a single source area for any particular Bowe line, although there may be firmer ground if we are talking within a relatively recent timescale, say post-Medieval onwards? That may well, in my view apply. However beyond that, to the mist covered bogs of pre-history, when Eire was peopled by arrivals from the continent and Britain Sept names, though later ascribed to certain locations may well have emerged in various localities, and given the relatively unchanged social/economic structure which prevalied over time in Eire, may well have taken root so to speak. Now it may well be that Cork was one such an area, where folks bearing the name Buadhaigh settled, or more likely received their name, other areas too, including the far North.What always fascinates my thinking on our Bowe (variants) name is its low frequency, even more so if we remove still, those carrying the name who may have been English 'settlers', then we are left with a distinctly low number, comparitively speaking to other Sept names. I believe (I am after all making this up as I go along) there could a tantalizing reason for that, which may well have it's origins in those Erainn peoples, including the Corca Laiodhe) who settled, we are asked to consider, prior to later Godelic populations, yet whose power, territory were consumed, by what we could loosely refer to as later 'Celtic' groups, such as for example the Eóganacht. The earlier Erainn became one of a number of subject groups, lists of whom are preserved in early medieval texts, they became a form of oppresed minority, taking up a number of specic trades, some held onto more marginal lands, but their prestige and dominance were over, nothing has remained of their language, apart maybe from one or two names. The Gaels were the new authority and their tongue, culture, history and control was to overwhelm the earlier Erainn, yet preserved in some Sept names and chronicled in tradition are fascinating possibilities of identification. Was this period, and the rapid fall from power of Erainn peoples, to establish a pattern and frequency of such peoples across Eire, including the Ua Buadhaigh?What is certain is that the Bowe name happily defies to catagorized, a trait which is in itself a defining characteristic of my own Bowe's :) It may well have plausable roots in Laios, but I have a feeling our ancestors at some early stage bore the name across Eire, to leave an imprint, the outlines of which we may be witnessing in amended form todayFrom: mhbowes11 <mhbowes11@...>
Sent: Tue, 17 May, 2011 22:52:34
Subject: [bowesgenealogy] Re: trip to ireland - Bowe in Ireland Origins
Some clarification here…
Jeane's subgroup in the DNA project matches in its Y-chromosome the modal for Ely Carroll, the ancient region and cluster of septs ruled by the O"Carrolls. This region covered Offaly and Northern Tipperary, and parts of Laois at various times. They match a documented modern descendent of the Litter Luna Carroll branch, but most likely also match the other Carroll branches from the area. It's just that we don't have a modern descendent of the other branches in the database to compare with.
Another interesting thing is how we can now use autosomal DNA by ordering the Family Finder test through FTDNA. My own Bowe subgroup has a different Y-chromosome result from Jeane's subgroup, but three Bowe matches in my subgroup are from northern Kilkenny and Tipperary and overlap the Ely Carroll subgroup. So Jeane and my father both took the Family Finder autosomal test, and even though autosomal DNA can dilute quickly with each generation, she and I did in fact show matching segments which would be from before 1800 (because our paper trails don't connect after that time). The only surname we know of that we have in common is Bowe. Using autosomal DNA established that her Ely Carroll subgroup and my subgroup in fact share the same history even though our Y chromosomes are different. Since my subgroup matches a Pearse from Devon, England, there most likely was a non-paternal event where a Pearse conceived a son with one of the Ely Carroll Bowe women, and that son would have been raised as a Bowe and took the name.
While autosomal matching is not guaranteed to preserve a connection from as far back in time as the Y chromosome, when it does it can be a useful tool for us to discern which of our Irish Bowe/s lineages actually represent a non-paternal event with the Ely Carroll subgroup. Our three participants from Ireland who don't have matches at this time have paper trails to Laois, Tipperary and Kilkenny, all areas where the Ely Carroll Bowe have a clear history in documents and DNA. It would be a good idea to take part in the autosomal testing and look for matching segments with other Bowe that way, alongside use of the Y chromosome. It could be that these three without matches belong to the Ely Carroll Bowe subgroup, in their autosomal history, but had a non-paternal event along the Y chromosome similar to my subgroup. It becomes important to try to rule this in or out and not just rely on the Y chromosome since non-paternal events were not uncommon.
Further, all we have established is that Jeane's subgroup matches Ely Carroll with the Y chromosome. This leaves open the possibility that her subgroup, and my father's that matches hers autosomally, actually have earlier history from Cork or some other area than Ely Carroll. The Ely Carroll Y-chromosome could itself be a non-paternal event in a Bowe group from elsewhere.
We still don't have any DNA or documentary proof to substantiate the Irish surname history account of our surname in Ireland originating in Cork among the Corca Laodhe. One participant from Ireland has a unique haplotype that might be traced to the Corca Laodhe based on subclade studies (maybe he will share his research with us ;-), but we need to see genetic matches using the Y chromosome and/or autosomal chromosomes with others whose surname are also associated with the Corca Laodhe to hone in on a tribal modal from there, just as we've been able to do with Ely Carroll and other regional groups from Ireland. So far we haven't found matches with Corca Laodhe surnames.
In addition to working to get more participants from Ireland in the project, the more of our current participants who take the Family Finder test the better, so we can build up our autosomal database within the project and have more chances for finding matching segments that connect Bowe subgroups that differ on the Y chromosome. Nice thing about that test is you can also study your other ancestral lines using it.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "bowes2000" <bowes2000@...> wrote:
> Hi Jeane,
> Great to hear of your trip to Eire and the kindness of folks there, as always hospitable and generous.
> As a Bowe/Bowes/Bow (all variants in our family records) myself with roots in Tipperary and prior to that I believe Cork, I was interested to note your idea of the Bowe's 'migrating' from one source area. Hope you will not mind me observing that such a model should be given very careful thought, as 'Bowe' and its variants has strong associations too with Cork and Tipperary, and to my my knowledge such groupings, certainly my own have no connection with Laios or the Carrol family.
> You are lucky to be able to identify with such certainty the line of your folks to a specific family and location, as other Bowe's such as myself get back to the 18th Century and a fog of speculation then descends.
> --- In email@example.com, "Jeane Robinson" <jbowes110@> wrote:
> > I just returned from a trip to Southern Ireland. I was doing research on my own Bowe/s line, Michael Bowe married 1832 in Coan, Co. Kilkenny. I also met with 11 Bowe/s and encouraged people to have their DNA tested and collected their ancestors paper trails for our Surname project. My Bowe/s line descends from the Litter Luna Carroll's so I also did some research on the Ely Carroll which I will post on the Ely Carroll board.
> > I had the good fortune of speaking with 4 historians and folklorists while traveling around. Much of what I was told I believe should be seen as starting points for further research. Perhaps the most interesting is that the Bowe in Kilkenny were originally Hereitary musicians and entertainers. They would have farmed a small piece of land but would have been paid in goods for their services. Two Bowe brothers left Co. Kilkenny to join the Barnum and Bailey Circus in the USA.
> > I met with 11 Bowe/s during our visit, each of their family stories were interesting and the people were all warm and friendly.
> > The Bowe family seems to me to be found in greater numbers in the area of Counties, Kilkenny, Laois (pronounced leash)and Offaly. It will be great when we can get people tested from the counties that surround that area to see if the Bowe/s just migrated there over time.
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