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RE: the caesar salad etc

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  • aletheia kallos
    ok david thanx for all & all the best to you as well & to us all in this golden moment of renewal ... From: DPhillips@fbm.com Subject: RE:
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 1 11:10 AM
      ok david thanx for all
      & all the best to you as well
      & to us all
      in this golden moment of renewal

      --- On Thu, 1/1/09, DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...> wrote:
      From: DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...>
      Subject: RE: the caesar salad etc
      To: aletheiak@...
      Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 4:12 AM

      Message
      Aletheia:
       
      Thanks as usual for the links.  I guess the Ethiopians are packing their bags about now, and we will move on to Act 47 of The Somalia Story.  It is very discouraging, but why expect anything more?  All rivers run into the sea, said the Preacher, yet the sea is not full.  It was like this on the plains of Mesopotamia 4400 years ago, until Sargon of Akkad whipped everyone into shape, and last I looked (yesterday morning) people are still fighting over the same territory.  Why even follow these drearily repetitive stories?  I am a fan, as you are I guess, but really it is hard not to chalk the whole thing up to human wickedness and folly.  Happy New Year, by the way.

      indeed & i am not discouraged
      but rather a phillies fanatic with you if you would
      when it comes to brotherly love
      & human potentiality
       
      While we are on the subject of countries breaking up into smaller units, these three items might amuse you.
       
      http://www.massinc.org/index.php?id=417.

      thanx
      all very entertaining
       
      You ask did we take the same contemporary civ & humanities program in the 60s, and that is strange because we might have.  Mentioning CC and humanities suggests you went to Columbia College, as did I.  I entered in 1963, was out of school for a year in 1966-7, and returned in time for the '68 Strike.  That Strike was one of the most interesting experiences of my life -- I'm so glad I didn't graduate on time and miss it.  Did you go to Columbia in the 60s?  Did we know each other there?  I ran the Student Draft Information Center in 1967-8.

      wow
      no i dodged the draft center
      but am reeling in deja vu now anyway

      61 thru 68 for me also tho i graduated in 65
      albeit under a previously assumed name

      you mean they are not already reigning & eating like that with the full sanction of law
       
      Yes, I do mean that.  There is a certain amount of reigning and eating, but some restraint too, and some protection for the weak. 

      hahaha
      a certain amount & some

      well yes
      & the protected sheep may be grateful not to get sheared & buggered every day
      nor butchered more than once

      but i bet theyd prefer to have skipped all of it

      Without law there is no restraint and no protection, and no security for the private sphere which people need to develop and participate in civilization.  Surely you recognize this, the primary difference between an orderly humane society and the killing fields of Rwanda.  It is true that a society can be orderly without being humane, as many a tyranny shows.  But no society of any size can be humane without enough order to let people breathe and follow their own concerns, and the pursuit of happiness.

      well you have made my point

      our global sized society
      such as it is
      based nominally on the order of territorial integrity
      as it purports to be
      still isnt humane enough in most cases to
      as you say
      let people breathe & follow their own concerns & the pursuit of happiness

      aka self determination

      aka the global bill of human rights in its nutshell

      so turtle bay at least is a living lie

      & this btw from the mouth of its own befuddled official tripoint registrar
      even without hearing the objections of serbia & georgia

      the primary purpose of human law is not benevolent but coercive & its benevolence is a fiction invented by the coercive
       
      No.  Law is coercive, in order to force everyone to behave, and provide for the peaceful resolution of disputes.  Sometimes the coercion has no benevolent purpose, as in Zimbabwe, and to be sure there is a stratum of abuse in every society.  Law favors the rich and powerful.  But beneath that stratum, in civilized societies, is a substratum in which coercion operates to protect everyone.  This is coercive but also benevolent, because without this coercion, as noted, the weak would have no protection from the strong.  And now they do have some, and the more civilized the society, the more protection the coercive power of the law provides them.  Didn't you do the reading in CC?  Look around you -- it really does work that way.

      hahaha
      no i was always a very poor & slow reader
      as well as a cockeyed observer
      & couldnt even do justice to the trots
      or the daily spectator for that matter

      but what would it take you to see that all the abuse & barbarity you so rightly deplore are inflicted not by some hypothetically depraved human nature
      but rather by our actually prevailing physical deformities
      as bequeathed by & perpetuated in the frankenstinian rigidity of territorial integrity
       
      indeed our human legal culture is itself an atrophying of our higher human nature

      I can't agree with that.

      people are all equally powerful sovereigns
       
      No they're they're not, except in the private sphere.  And without a firmly established structure of law and order, maintained by the threat of social (rather than individual) force to be applied against those who would disrupt it, no private sphere can exist.  True, in some societies state force annihilates the private sphere, or tries to -- viz Ceausescu's Mad Forest or the Taliban tyranny.  But in humane modern liberal democratic societies like Canada, Switzerland, and even the USA on most days for most people, law preserves the private sphere in which every man can be a king, and his home his castle.

      ahh the purportedly eternal purported verities
      which suggest ones very dignity & viability & power as a person are structurally conferred
      usually
      & mostly
      & only in ones castle
      & only in a few lucky geographical areas
      & so are not at all necessarily found in ones body or mind or person even there

      but i believe we are all fully sovereign everywhere & always
      by dint of our inherent personal power
      & notwithstanding all the superfluity of government & law pollution surrounding us

      & on this we might agree to disagree
      at least for the time being
       
      great i just happen to need one
      perhaps i could call you in the morning
       
      By all means call me -- phone number in the Pacific Time Zone.  I'll be happy to discuss your legal question with you, whatever it is, on a confidential basis.  I won't represent you, because I am retired, but on the other hand I won't charge you either, and if after discussion you still think you need a lawyer I'll help you find one. thanx very much i will call after i get all my facts together as i would greatly value your opinion

      a huge concession & a huge breakthru
      Not really.  It is part of the same thing I mention above.  Anarchy is worse than tyranny, because in anarchy everyone with a gun or even a cudgel can be a tyrant.  Horrible as the ICU was, with their stonings and misogyny and fundamentalist obsessions, if they could have stabilized the place, so people (men anyway) could at least walk on the street, that would allow people some interior life other than fear and hunger.  Islamic law is better than no law.  It would be a place to start, anyway, on moving toward a civilized society.  Look at Iraq -- gotta stop anarchy before any progress is possible.

      you seem to insist that i am advocating anarchy
      yet i repeat i am not advocating anything but the greater allowance & encouragement of self determination

      & btw since you are so fixated on this
      where & when does stopping anarchy stop

      or how will you know when you have created enough um archy

      & is what we have now globally anarchy or archy or what exactly

      i dont see the point
       
      in & thru me at least voila the change already is
       
      It may already be, but chances are it doesn't extend much beyond your head.  It's good to change your head, but it is a mistake to confuse that with changing the world, or even other people's heads.

      haha
      you think my head is not part of the world

      it could be on the leading edge of global thought tho

      as could be yours
       
      abyei
       
      That's a new one on me.  I just checked Wikipedia -- how come I never heard of this one before?  I learn something new every day.

      give it another year or 2 & youll hear of it

      somaliland may be sufficient for today

      yours very exuberantly in any case



       
      David 
      -----Original Message-----
      From: aletheia kallos [mailto:aletheiak@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:01 AM
      To: O.T.Oduntan@...; johnrvp@...; B.Kwiatkowska@...; MilefskyRJ@...; marianhouk@...; lisa.magloff@...; guan_pf001@...; mike.beidler@...; ilan_kelman@...; stuart.elden@...; j.w.donaldson@...
      Cc: Phillips, David (31) x4955; M.A.Pratt@...; boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: the caesar salad etc

      --- On Tue, 12/30/08, DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...> wrote:
      From: DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...>
      Subject: RE: the caesar salad
      To: aletheiak@...
      Date: Tuesday, December 30, 2008, 1:48 PM

      the pirates fate will actually be decided in the impending struggle for punt
      I think you're probably right about this, unless as I suspect the winning Puntland "authorities" are benefiting from piracy.  If they're not now, they soon will be offered a healthy slice of the profits.  What else have they got nearly so lucrative?  Frankincense?

      why unless

      i assume rather than just suspect that both the tfg bigs & the puntland bigs
      many of whom are the same people anyway
      are complicit in & get a cut of the piracy proceeds already
      seeing as most if not all the piracy appears to be based on their home turf

      the pirates only seem to get chastened at all when they drift west into somaliland or south into the islamist controlled areas

      & thats why i find the new turtle bay piracy law so funny

      it is almost as if the sheriff of nottingham had passed an edict requiring his officers to get a warrant from robin hood before going after the merry men of sherwood

      & now that the tfg is cracking up likely beyond any hope of repair
      it already appears no warrants can or will ever be gotten by any means

      so we can forget that law

      or expect that it will be invoked except just minus all those messy warrants
      meaning c130s & drones away next thing you know
      aimed at suspected pirates & suspected islamists alike

       
      turtle bay will act next to squeeze or even break & occupy punt
      You know more about TB than I do.  But I doubt TB has either the will or the troops to occupy Punt or anywhere else.  Who will volunteer to send their troops on that thankless mission, and keep them there?  That's why there will be no effective Somali trusteeship on land.

      the same countries that are now interested enough to pass unanimous but stupid pirate laws & to all send practically ineffectual naval forces may be expected to also become interested enough when the time is ripe & obvious to send far less costly air & ground forces that have a far higher probability of success
      rather than continue thrashing about so pointlessly & wastefully as they are now

      punt is not mogadishu

      punt will get rescued from piracy as it were
      even as mogadishu darfur zimbabwe congo et al bleed on


      at least 3 somalias for the price of 1
      Except for Somaliland, I don't see even one yet.  I don't see why Somalia should cohere around this issue any more than around any other.  It was shifting dominance areas before the Italians, and it is s.d.a. now.  Puntland is already de facto "independent" and still there is no sign of coherence in the rest of the "country."

      right
      somaliland voluntarily
      followed by puntland willynilly
      & then the former rump or rather all the rest could recombine into a third unit
      or remain a dirty dozen for a while

      http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20081229_somalia_yusufs_resignation_and_possibility_peace_deal
      feels about correct
      while i do prefer to grant these people their optimism
      http://www.somalipressreview.com/view.php?articleid=1015

       
      when i push against anything of any kind in any way it only gets bigger & more so
      Then no one should do anything about anything.  That can't be right.

      thats not my conclusion
      because doing & pushing against arent the same thing at all

      rather i would conclude no one should push against nor suppress nor try stopping anything
      if they want to be successful

       
      the solution to anarchy is simply panarchy ...  the very panarchy that prevails anyway wherever & whenever people simply take care of themselves & see to their needs
      Panarchy is very good.  But there is no practical difference between anarchy and panarchy.  I think maybe you are a romantic anarchist of the old school. 

      hahaha
      did we take the same contemporary civ & humanities program in the 60s

      i still seem to be getting flunked on the identical essay questions

      i guess i never learned

      but i am not talking about some fundamental undoable utopian reconfiguration from scratch here

      & thats a huge difference

      for i am smart enough now to only advocate a dinky little poke now
      added feasibly onto & feathered imperceptibly into what we already do have


      Really when everyone is free to
      take care of themselves & see to their needs what results is a horrible reign of terror in which the strong eat the weak. 

      whattt
      you mean they are not already reigning & eating like that
      with the full sanction of law

      amazing that its taking them so long to get noticed

      There are countless examples.  As noted, restraining that State of Nature is the primary benevolent purpose of law.  Even though law also supports an elite, it allows the others at least to live.  When no one but the strong can live (viz. Zimbabwe), the reason is almost always that law has atrophied.

      the primary purpose of human law is not benevolent but coercive

      & its benevolence is a fiction invented by the coercive

      so legal atrophy is not my concern

      indeed our human legal culture is itself an atrophying of our higher human nature

      for anarchy theory assumes wrongly that people are powerless or at most just brutal forces

      & panarchy assumes rightly that people are all equally powerful sovereigns
      & indeed divine

      not a power void but a power fullness

      not incapacity but capacity

      all the difference in the world there

       
      no you dont hate but like being a wet blanket
      Guilty as charged.  I am a lawyer.

      great
      i just happen to need one
      perhaps i could call you in the morning

       
      the icu was not a failed state on the contrary & it was only abolished by international mischief
      You are 100% right about that.  Loathsome as they were, I was rooting for them to at least stabilize the place.  The US paranoia about al Qaeda, if there even is such a thing (remember Goldstein and the 20-minute hate from 1984), led to that piece of sabotage.  That's where the world should have taken your advice and just let things happen.

      wow thats a huge concession & a huge breakthru
      thanxx pal
      i only wish the world had been prescient enough then to hear you finally say that now

       
      as if you really could anyway
      That's the irony, of course -- all these words and we can't affect anything.

      i dont feel so powerless generally

      but i just keep right on being the change i want to see in the world

      i desire it
      i allow it
      & in & thru me at least
      voila
      the change already is

      gandhi realized such beingness had real effect
      unlike pushing against what he didnt want
       
      We may be getting close to exhausting this topic.  I see why they tossed this discussion off the list.  It has been very interesting, though, and you make some very good and thoughtful points.  Even if I don't view things quite the same way, I must admit that your perspective is a challenging and useful one.

      thank you
      it is quite fine that things have gone this way too
      whether we have exhausted everything & everyone or not
       
      Are you a Somali specialist?  Or are you this well informed about every fly-bitten corner of the world? 

      haha
      thank you so much
      i guess i am a specialist on the dilemmas of the horn

      could i interest you in a little eritrea ethiopia
      hahaha
      or perhaps a dab of eritrea djibouti

      or abyei a bit farther afield

      seriously tho
      when i find any geopolitical anomaly significant enough to discern in it either a critically forgotten loose end or a possible leading edge of human thought
      or preferably both at once
      i like to ride that wave as far as it will take me

      & the horn just happens to be packed full of such at the moment

      i do sincerely appreciate your appreciation tho
      amateur that i am as well

      Your discourse and your links have been most informative.  I myself am not a boundary specialist like most people on the list seem to be, but just a retired lawyer who has been a geography buff all his life, since my father first gave me a stamp album when I was about six.  That's how I even know about British Somaliland.  And I confess there is something thrilling about a boundary -- x on this side, y on the other -- even if boundary lines on the ground, or in the past, have not always been what they seemed on the map.
       
      David

      previous instalments truncated for good housekeeping
      but may be traced to the int boundaries & boundarypointpoint message boards
      https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A1=ind0812&L=INT-BOUNDARIES&X=2D5CA81CE0410D346C
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boundarypointpoint/messages

      & kindly let me know if youd like to be removed from or added to the distribution
      in case there are more to come
      ak md


    • aletheia kallos
      ... From: DPhillips@fbm.com Subject: RE: the caesar salad etc To: aletheiak@yahoo.com Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 6:06 PM Message 61
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 1 6:55 PM
        --- On Thu, 1/1/09, DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...> wrote:
        From: DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...>
        Subject: RE: the caesar salad etc
        To: aletheiak@...
        Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 6:06 PM

        Message
        61 thru 68
         
        Roar, Lion, roar!

        yes i was able to observe at first hand over long years how the annual spring panty raids
        grew bolder & louder & more hilarious
        until they became known as the spring riots
        & culminated so importantly in the great strike of 68


         
        but i bet theyd prefer to have skipped all of it
         
        Of course.  But we don't usually get what we'd prefer. 

        really
        ida thunk we were practically preference seeking guided missiles
        navigating & stepping from preference to preference all our days

        & why shouldnt we get what we prefer
        to the full extent of our ability to manifest it

        is there some problem with that

        it is only self determination in action & process

        We are lucky to get any protection at all. 

        whattt

        if we are lucky it is because we are happy

        if we are protected or safe it is also because we are happy

        for only the happy go lucky

        our greatest protection & safety & wellbeing etc derive from our happy feeling tone which arises from our happy thoughts

        i know of no better protection or insurance etc

        When I hear people in the U S of A complaining about fascism and oppression, I think of real trouble, like a Viking raid, or Tamerlane and his pyramids of skulls.

         
        isnt humane enough in most cases
         
        Amen to that.
         
        official tripoint registrar
         
        Official?  Are you actually working for the UN? 

        ha no
        i only register official united nations tripoints
        thats all

        as you know
        none of that unofficial abkhazia kosovo gaza etc stuff has been allowed to soil the purity of my brains
        so far

        of course i realize thats my personal challenge
        as is the fact that i myself am not officially recognized by anyone or anything
        & moreover live on blue hill bay rather than turtle
        but yes
        i am in truth only unofficially the registrar of official united nations tripoints

        I thought this was a sort of hobby for you.
          Do you live in New York, my home town?  If you ever get out here I can show you a huge collection of specialized atlases with boundaries even you never heard of.

        sounds wonderful
        the flowers are already in my hair
         
        but what would it take you to see that all the abuse & barbarity you so rightly deplore are inflicted not by some hypothetically depraved human nature but rather by our actually prevailing physical deformities as bequeathed by & perpetuated in the frankenstinian rigidity of territorial integrity
         
        I'm not sure I understand that. 

        no matter
        as it was so monstrously put

        reconsider it this way tho

        our great human problem of such deplorable geopolitical behavior may not issue from our intrinsic human nature so much as from the unnatural & indeed grotesque geopolitical shapes we have forced this nature to assume & hold

        & i might add how odd it strikes me
        now that i rethink it
        that we even cite our very fear of our nature as reason to so rigidly maintain these deformities

        But human nature is primate nature -- we take what we want, bananas, territory, females, whatever -- and who can blame us?  It's not depraved, it's in our genes.  But unless you want to live like the baboons do, we need a civilizing structure with enough force behind it to make us all behave.  It is no good viewing this as a Rousseauian idealist -- born free but everywhere in chains -- because we're not born free.  We're born subject either to the rule of nature, red of tooth and claw (Tennyson), or subject to the rules our society has erected to restrain those teeth and claws.  We can submit, or rebel, or migrate, or work for change, or whatever, but that's how we got beyond baboonery.  We have other problems of civilization that the baboons don't have.  But that's the way it is, don't you know.  I don't make the rules (even though I can hear you saying yes I do).

        we are all fully sovereign everywhere & always
        No.  We are sovereign on the inside, but not on the outside.  If we were sovereigns everywhere we could coin money and execute people and levy taxes and do all sorts of entertaining things.  But we're subjects on the outside, all of us except a few actual sovereigns, and independent only in our interior lives.  And some (such as the religious authorities, or totalitarian govts) are always trying to make us subject there too.
         

        Stone walls do not a prison make,  

        Nor iron bars a cage;  

        Minds innocent and quiet take  

        That for an hermitage;  

        If I have freedom in my love  

        And in my soul am free,

        Angels alone, that soar above,  

        Enjoy such liberty.


        well i dont quite get it nor why you are giving it like this

        but again no matter if we have already agreed to disagree


        my kingdom for a pony tho

        http://www.cummingsstudyguides.net/Guides3/Althea.html#Text


        growing sleepy now


        where were those nodoze


        end inserts

        zzzzz zzzzz zzzzz


         

        on this we might agree to disagree at least for the time being
         
        Pretty much have to.  I see your point and you see mine.  That's all we can do.  But it has been fun exploring.

        thanx very much i will call after i get all my facts together as i would greatly value your opinion
        Operators are waiting to take your call.
         
        you think my head is not part of the world
         
        Now that really would be strange.
         
        Just reading about the Germanic Invasions 400-600.  Things could be worse.  What if tomorrow bring sorrow, or anything other than joy?  Our empire is just beginning to crumble.  It will see us graybeards out, anyway.  Apr├Ęs nous, le deluge.
         
            David
         
         
         
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: aletheia kallos [mailto:aletheiak@...]
        Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2009 11:10 AM
        To: Phillips, David (31) x4955; O.T.Oduntan@...; johnrvp@...; MilefskyRJ@...; marianhouk@...; lisa.magloff@...; guan_pf001@...; mike.beidler@...; ilan_kelman@...; stuart.elden@...; j.w.donaldson@...
        Cc: M.A.Pratt@...; boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: the caesar salad etc

        ok david thanx for all
        & all the best to you as well
        & to us all
        in this golden moment of renewal

        --- On Thu, 1/1/09, DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...> wrote:
        From: DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...>
        Subject: RE: the caesar salad etc
        To: aletheiak@...
        Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 4:12 AM

        Aletheia:
         
        Thanks as usual for the links.  I guess the Ethiopians are packing their bags about now, and we will move on to Act 47 of The Somalia Story.  It is very discouraging, but why expect anything more?  All rivers run into the sea, said the Preacher, yet the sea is not full.  It was like this on the plains of Mesopotamia 4400 years ago, until Sargon of Akkad whipped everyone into shape, and last I looked (yesterday morning) people are still fighting over the same territory.  Why even follow these drearily repetitive stories?  I am a fan, as you are I guess, but really it is hard not to chalk the whole thing up to human wickedness and folly.  Happy New Year, by the way.

        indeed & i am not discouraged
        but rather a phillies fanatic with you if you would
        when it comes to brotherly love
        & human potentiality
         
        While we are on the subject of countries breaking up into smaller units, these three items might amuse you.
         
        http://www.massinc.org/index.php?id=417.

        thanx
        all very entertaining
         
        You ask did we take the same contemporary civ & humanities program in the 60s, and that is strange because we might have.  Mentioning CC and humanities suggests you went to Columbia College, as did I.  I entered in 1963, was out of school for a year in 1966-7, and returned in time for the '68 Strike.  That Strike was one of the most interesting experiences of my life -- I'm so glad I didn't graduate on time and miss it.  Did you go to Columbia in the 60s?  Did we know each other there?  I ran the Student Draft Information Center in 1967-8.

        wow
        no i dodged the draft center
        but am reeling in deja vu now anyway

        61 thru 68 for me also tho i graduated in 65
        albeit under a previously assumed name

        you mean they are not already reigning & eating like that with the full sanction of law
         
        Yes, I do mean that.  There is a certain amount of reigning and eating, but some restraint too, and some protection for the weak. 

        hahaha
        a certain amount & some

        well yes
        & the protected sheep may be grateful not to get sheared & buggered every day
        nor butchered more than once

        but i bet theyd prefer to have skipped all of it

        Without law there is no restraint and no protection, and no security for the private sphere which people need to develop and participate in civilization.  Surely you recognize this, the primary difference between an orderly humane society and the killing fields of Rwanda.  It is true that a society can be orderly without being humane, as many a tyranny shows.  But no society of any size can be humane without enough order to let people breathe and follow their own concerns, and the pursuit of happiness.

        well you have made my point

        our global sized society
        such as it is
        based nominally on the order of territorial integrity
        as it purports to be
        still isnt humane enough in most cases to
        as you say
        let people breathe & follow their own concerns & the pursuit of happiness

        aka self determination

        aka the global bill of human rights in its nutshell

        so turtle bay at least is a living lie

        & this btw from the mouth of its own befuddled official tripoint registrar
        even without hearing the objections of serbia & georgia

        the primary purpose of human law is not benevolent but coercive & its benevolence is a fiction invented by the coercive
         
        No.  Law is coercive, in order to force everyone to behave, and provide for the peaceful resolution of disputes.  Sometimes the coercion has no benevolent purpose, as in Zimbabwe, and to be sure there is a stratum of abuse in every society.  Law favors the rich and powerful.  But beneath that stratum, in civilized societies, is a substratum in which coercion operates to protect everyone.  This is coercive but also benevolent, because without this coercion, as noted, the weak would have no protection from the strong.  And now they do have some, and the more civilized the society, the more protection the coercive power of the law provides them.  Didn't you do the reading in CC?  Look around you -- it really does work that way.

        hahaha
        no i was always a very poor & slow reader
        as well as a cockeyed observer
        & couldnt even do justice to the trots
        or the daily spectator for that matter

        but what would it take you to see that all the abuse & barbarity you so rightly deplore are inflicted not by some hypothetically depraved human nature
        but rather by our actually prevailing physical deformities
        as bequeathed by & perpetuated in the frankenstinian rigidity of territorial integrity
         
        indeed our human legal culture is itself an atrophying of our higher human nature

        I can't agree with that.

        people are all equally powerful sovereigns
         
        No they're they're not, except in the private sphere.  And without a firmly established structure of law and order, maintained by the threat of social (rather than individual) force to be applied against those who would disrupt it, no private sphere can exist.  True, in some societies state force annihilates the private sphere, or tries to -- viz Ceausescu's Mad Forest or the Taliban tyranny.  But in humane modern liberal democratic societies like Canada, Switzerland, and even the USA on most days for most people, law preserves the private sphere in which every man can be a king, and his home his castle.

        ahh the purportedly eternal purported verities
        which suggest ones very dignity & viability & power as a person are structurally conferred
        usually
        & mostly
        & only in ones castle
        & only in a few lucky geographical areas
        & so are not at all necessarily found in ones body or mind or person even there

        but i believe we are all fully sovereign everywhere & always
        by dint of our inherent personal power
        & notwithstanding all the superfluity of government & law pollution surrounding us

        & on this we might agree to disagree
        at least for the time being
         
        great i just happen to need one
        perhaps i could call you in the morning
         
        By all means call me -- phone number in the Pacific Time Zone.  I'll be happy to discuss your legal question with you, whatever it is, on a confidential basis.  I won't represent you, because I am retired, but on the other hand I won't charge you either, and if after discussion you still think you need a lawyer I'll help you find one. thanx very much i will call after i get all my facts together as i would greatly value your opinion

        a huge concession & a huge breakthru
        Not really.  It is part of the same thing I mention above.  Anarchy is worse than tyranny, because in anarchy everyone with a gun or even a cudgel can be a tyrant.  Horrible as the ICU was, with their stonings and misogyny and fundamentalist obsessions, if they could have stabilized the place, so people (men anyway) could at least walk on the street, that would allow people some interior life other than fear and hunger.  Islamic law is better than no law.  It would be a place to start, anyway, on moving toward a civilized society.  Look at Iraq -- gotta stop anarchy before any progress is possible.

        you seem to insist that i am advocating anarchy
        yet i repeat i am not advocating anything but the greater allowance & encouragement of self determination

        & btw since you are so fixated on this
        where & when does stopping anarchy stop

        or how will you know when you have created enough um archy

        & is what we have now globally anarchy or archy or what exactly

        i dont see the point
         
        in & thru me at least voila the change already is
         
        It may already be, but chances are it doesn't extend much beyond your head.  It's good to change your head, but it is a mistake to confuse that with changing the world, or even other people's heads.

        haha
        you think my head is not part of the world

        it could be on the leading edge of global thought tho

        as could be yours
         
        abyei
         
        That's a new one on me.  I just checked Wikipedia -- how come I never heard of this one before?  I learn something new every day.

        give it another year or 2 & youll hear of it

        somaliland may be sufficient for today

        yours very exuberantly in any case



         
        David 
        -----Original Message-----
        From: aletheia kallos [mailto:aletheiak@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 12:01 AM
        To: O.T.Oduntan@...; johnrvp@...; B.Kwiatkowska@...; MilefskyRJ@...; marianhouk@...; lisa.magloff@...; guan_pf001@...; mike.beidler@...; ilan_kelman@...; stuart.elden@...; j.w.donaldson@...
        Cc: Phillips, David (31) x4955; M.A.Pratt@...; boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: the caesar salad etc

        --- On Tue, 12/30/08, DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...> wrote:
        From: DPhillips@... <DPhillips@...>
        Subject: RE: the caesar salad
        To: aletheiak@...
        Date: Tuesday, December 30, 2008, 1:48 PM

        the pirates fate will actually be decided in the impending struggle for punt
        I think you're probably right about this, unless as I suspect the winning Puntland "authorities" are benefiting from piracy.  If they're not now, they soon will be offered a healthy slice of the profits.  What else have they got nearly so lucrative?  Frankincense?

        why unless

        i assume rather than just suspect that both the tfg bigs & the puntland bigs
        many of whom are the same people anyway
        are complicit in & get a cut of the piracy proceeds already
        seeing as most if not all the piracy appears to be based on their home turf

        the pirates only seem to get chastened at all when they drift west into somaliland or south into the islamist controlled areas

        & thats why i find the new turtle bay piracy law so funny

        it is almost as if the sheriff of nottingham had passed an edict requiring his officers to get a warrant from robin hood before going after the merry men of sherwood

        & now that the tfg is cracking up likely beyond any hope of repair
        it already appears no warrants can or will ever be gotten by any means

        so we can forget that law

        or expect that it will be invoked except just minus all those messy warrants
        meaning c130s & drones away next thing you know
        aimed at suspected pirates & suspected islamists alike

         
        turtle bay will act next to squeeze or even break & occupy punt
        You know more about TB than I do.  But I doubt TB has either the will or the troops to occupy Punt or anywhere else.  Who will volunteer to send their troops on that thankless mission, and keep them there?  That's why there will be no effective Somali trusteeship on land.

        the same countries that are now interested enough to pass unanimous but stupid pirate laws & to all send practically ineffectual naval forces may be expected to also become interested enough when the time is ripe & obvious to send far less costly air & ground forces that have a far higher probability of success
        rather than continue thrashing about so pointlessly & wastefully as they are now

        punt is not mogadishu

        punt will get rescued from piracy as it were
        even as mogadishu darfur zimbabwe congo et al bleed on


        at least 3 somalias for the price of 1
        Except for Somaliland, I don't see even one yet.  I don't see why Somalia should cohere around this issue any more than around any other.  It was shifting dominance areas before the Italians, and it is s.d.a. now.  Puntland is already de facto "independent" and still there is no sign of coherence in the rest of the "country."

        right
        somaliland voluntarily
        followed by puntland willynilly
        & then the former rump or rather all the rest could recombine into a third unit
        or remain a dirty dozen for a while

        http://www.stratfor.com/analysis/20081229_somalia_yusufs_resignation_and_possibility_peace_deal
        feels about correct
        while i do prefer to grant these people their optimism
        http://www.somalipressreview.com/view.php?articleid=1015

         
        when i push against anything of any kind in any way it only gets bigger & more so
        Then no one should do anything about anything.  That can't be right.

        thats not my conclusion
        because doing & pushing against arent the same thing at all

        rather i would conclude no one should push against nor suppress nor try stopping anything
        if they want to be successful

         
        the solution to anarchy is simply panarchy ...  the very panarchy that prevails anyway wherever & whenever people simply take care of themselves & see to their needs
        Panarchy is very good.  But there is no practical difference between anarchy and panarchy.  I think maybe you are a romantic anarchist of the old school. 

        hahaha
        did we take the same contemporary civ & humanities program in the 60s

        i still seem to be getting flunked on the identical essay questions

        i guess i never learned

        but i am not talking about some fundamental undoable utopian reconfiguration from scratch here

        & thats a huge difference

        for i am smart enough now to only advocate a dinky little poke now
        added feasibly onto & feathered imperceptibly into what we already do have


        Really when everyone is free to
        take care of themselves & see to their needs what results is a horrible reign of terror in which the strong eat the weak. 

        whattt
        you mean they are not already reigning & eating like that
        with the full sanction of law

        amazing that its taking them so long to get noticed

        There are countless examples.  As noted, restraining that State of Nature is the primary benevolent purpose of law.  Even though law also supports an elite, it allows the others at least to live.  When no one but the strong can live (viz. Zimbabwe), the reason is almost always that law has atrophied.

        the primary purpose of human law is not benevolent but coercive

        & its benevolence is a fiction invented by the coercive

        so legal atrophy is not my concern

        indeed our human legal culture is itself an atrophying of our higher human nature

        for anarchy theory assumes wrongly that people are powerless or at most just brutal forces

        & panarchy assumes rightly that people are all equally powerful sovereigns
        & indeed divine

        not a power void but a power fullness

        not incapacity but capacity

        all the difference in the world there

         
        no you dont hate but like being a wet blanket
        Guilty as charged.  I am a lawyer.

        great
        i just happen to need one
        perhaps i could call you in the morning

         
        the icu was not a failed state on the contrary & it was only abolished by international mischief
        You are 100% right about that.  Loathsome as they were, I was rooting for them to at least stabilize the place.  The US paranoia about al Qaeda, if there even is such a thing (remember Goldstein and the 20-minute hate from 1984), led to that piece of sabotage.  That's where the world should have taken your advice and just let things happen.

        wow thats a huge concession & a huge breakthru
        thanxx pal
        i only wish the world had been prescient enough then to hear you finally say that now

         
        as if you really could anyway
        That's the irony, of course -- all these words and we can't affect anything.

        i dont feel so powerless generally

        but i just keep right on being the change i want to see in the world

        i desire it
        i allow it
        & in & thru me at least
        voila
        the change already is

        gandhi realized such beingness had real effect
        unlike pushing against what he didnt want
         
        We may be getting close to exhausting this topic.  I see why they tossed this discussion off the list.  It has been very interesting, though, and you make some very good and thoughtful points.  Even if I don't view things quite the same way, I must admit that your perspective is a challenging and useful one.

        thank you
        it is quite fine that things have gone this way too
        whether we have exhausted everything & everyone or not
         
        Are you a Somali specialist?  Or are you this well informed about every fly-bitten corner of the world? 

        haha
        thank you so much
        i guess i am a specialist on the dilemmas of the horn

        could i interest you in a little eritrea ethiopia
        hahaha
        or perhaps a dab of eritrea djibouti

        or abyei a bit farther afield

        seriously tho
        when i find any geopolitical anomaly significant enough to discern in it either a critically forgotten loose end or a possible leading edge of human thought
        or preferably both at once
        i like to ride that wave as far as it will take me

        & the horn just happens to be packed full of such at the moment

        i do sincerely appreciate your appreciation tho
        amateur that i am as well

        Your discourse and your links have been most informative.  I myself am not a boundary specialist like most people on the list seem to be, but just a retired lawyer who has been a geography buff all his life, since my father first gave me a stamp album when I was about six.  That's how I even know about British Somaliland.  And I confess there is something thrilling about a boundary -- x on this side, y on the other -- even if boundary lines on the ground, or in the past, have not always been what they seemed on the map.
         
        David

        previous instalments truncated for good housekeeping
        but may be traced to the int boundaries & boundarypointpoint message boards
        https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A1=ind0812&L=INT-BOUNDARIES&X=2D5CA81CE0410D346C
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/boundarypointpoint/messages

        & kindly let me know if youd like to be removed from or added to the distribution
        in case there are more to come
        ak md



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