Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: delawares 180th boundary rock

Expand Messages
  • aletheia kallos
    the following was just sent to william schenck & is best read from the bottom up thanx friend good stuff all & i look forward to finding the nathan booklet too
    Message 1 of 2 , Dec 3 7:56 PM
      the following was just sent to william schenck
      & is best read from the bottom up


      thanx friend
      good stuff all
      & i look forward to finding the nathan booklet too

      but in the meantime
      if i may offer a half educated opinion or less

      in view of the extreme & indeed pivotal importance of this hickory stump point
      thru the centuries
      rather than just in relation to the work of 1701
      or of 1849
      or of 1892 etc
      it seems a travesty of data collection to so willfully ignore it just because you cant accept
      on purely technical grounds
      this perfect reenactment & indeed monumental perpetuation in stone

      it seems to me
      better to include & elucidate it in the data base in order to expressly disqualify it there for the perfectly good reason you do have for excluding it

      if nothing else its geocoords & story are important for study of the boundary history
      & it is a tripoint after all too
      rather than just a simple boundary point

      the fact that kennett & pennsbury probably did it in the 20th century rather than delaware & pennsylvania in the 19th shouldnt matter so much in the great scheme of things

      the point always did & still does mark the delaware state border

      in fact it would be nice to know for a fact who really did mark it so wonderfully like this
      & when

      well
      thanxxx very much for your attention & these fine gifts too

      --- On Tue, 12/2/08, William Schenck <rockman@...> wrote:
      From: William Schenck <rockman@...>
      Subject: RE: delawares 180th boundary rock
      To: aletheiak@...
      Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 11:37 AM

      Thanks for your email Aletheia
       
      In trying to answer you question about the Letitia Penn Stone I can only say that the stone marked the place where a tree was originally used in the early 1700s to mark the edge of the 12-mile circle laid out by Taylor and Piersons in 1701. Are you familiar with the booklet "East of the Mason-Dixon Line" by Roger E. Nathan, published by the Delaware Heritage Commission in August 2000? Roger has described this area of the Delaware Boundary in some detail. The 1892 survey and monumenting of the DE-PA line by Col. W. C. Hodgkins of the US Coast and Geodetic Survey was accepted by the States of DE and PA. That survey did not include the penn monument marking the location of the Hickory stump (also the county corner between Kennett and Pennsbury townships as well as the line between Chester and New Castle Counties). Hodgkins monuments were placed every 1/2 mile, but he used the "Kennett-Pennsbury Corner" in his survey. Since the Boundary commission at the time for both states accepted the monuments in the Hodgkins' survey, the stump marker is not an "Official" boundary monument recognized currently by law.
       
      It gets quite complicated and although I can't send you Roger's book, I have attached a scan of the Hodgkins survey and a 1934 circular boundary article from the Civil Engineering journal by Lynn Perry..  You can contact the DE Heritage Commission and obtain a copy of the Nathan book I am sure or your local library should have it.
       
      I hope this information helps
       
      Sandy Schenck
       
      *-*-*-*-*-This note composed of 100% recyclable electrons*-*-*-*-*-*
      William "Sandy" Schenck, P. G.
      Scientist, Delaware DataMIL
      Delaware Geological Survey
      University of Delaware
      Newark, DE  19716-7501
       
      Web:  http://www.udel.edu/dgs
      Email:rockman@...   Phone:(302)831-8262    FAX:(302)831-3579
       


      From: aletheia kallos [mailto:aletheiak@...]
      Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 8:26 AM
      To: Rockman@...
      Subject: delawares 180th boundary rock

      hi sandy

      can you tell me why the beautiful & historically important letitia penn stone pictured at the bottom of this page
      http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/6782
      & situated just off burnt mill road a few hundred feet west of arc boundary monument 11
      is not included in the official delaware state boundary monument data base
      http://www.rdms.udel.edu/dgs/boundaryMap.html
      nor in your own personal count of 179
      http://www.dgs.udel.edu/publications/infoseries/info6.aspx

      thanx for your attention

      sincerely
      ak


    • aletheia kallos
      thank you very much sir & i have also been hopefully wending my way thru the shop delaware website for it tho they have not yet inspired much confidence in
      Message 2 of 2 , Dec 4 1:50 PM
        thank you very much sir
        & i have also been hopefully wending my way thru the shop delaware website for it
        tho they have not yet inspired much confidence in their ability or desire to do business

        but in the meantime
        if i might ask you a still tougher 12mile circle question
        whether to field directly or farm out
        regarding your official markers nj5 & nj6
        http://www.rdms.udel.edu/dgs/boundary/ID133.html
        http://www.rdms.udel.edu/dgs/boundary/ID134.html
        as shown on the topo & satpic hybrid here
        http://www.mytopo.com/maps.cfm?mtlat=39.4984&mtlon=-75.53508&z=15

        these monuments & their geopositions are mentioned in the 1935 scotus decree
        http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=295&invol=694
        in courses 6 & 7 respectively of paragraph 4
        a bit more than halfway down the page
        where they are stated to have been situated at a radius of some 59764 feet & 2 inches
        or in other words only about 11 point 3 miles
        from the old new castle county courthouse
        evidently as adjudicated & demarcated de novo & without known precedent in 1934

        now it is not surprising to find measurement errors of 6 percent in the 1701 survey work

        but such a great mismeasurement certainly would come as a shock in an original 20th century work of precision boundary engineering

        so i doubt it really was an error at all by the supremes & or their contractors in the 1930s
        but expect there has to be some perfectly good reason delaware lost about 3600 feet of half the lower bay at that late date

        yes incredibly as recently as 75 years ago
        something on the order of 900 acres
        or roughly a square nautical mile
        simply vanished from delaware territory without trace or explanation
        so far as i have been able to find

        & just to assure yourself that this error or adjustment is indeed an original 1930s innovation & not a reiteration or continuation of some historical discrepancy
        please compare the location of the arc swing on the above topo
        to its location as depicted on this 1927 topo
        in relation to the mouths of st augustines & or alloways creek
        http://historical.mytopo.com/getImage.asp?fname=smyr31ne.jpg&state=DE

        for the usgs at least still believed in 1927 that the 12 mile circle still had a radius of 12 miles in that particular location or arc segment

        yet suddenly & quite mysteriously
        by 1935 this became no longer the case

        so i am hoping you or someone you know can perhaps shed some light on this most inscrutable delaware boundary rock mystery of all

        --- On Thu, 12/4/08, William Schenck <rockman@...> wrote:
        From: William Schenck <rockman@...>
        Subject: RE: delawares 180th boundary rock
        To: aletheiak@...
        Cc: "'Guerrant Alice (DOS)'" <Alice.Guerrant@...>
        Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 8:03 AM

        I believe it is well documented in Nathan's book. And I am hoping that the Delaware Historic Preservation Office knows of its existence, or should. I am coping your email to them just to be sure.
         
        Thanks
        Sandy Schenck
         
        *-*-*-*-*-This note composed of 100% recyclable electrons*-*-*-*-*-*
        William "Sandy" Schenck, P. G.
        Scientist, Delaware DataMIL
        Delaware Geological Survey
        University of Delaware
        Newark, DE  19716-7501
         
        Web:  http://www.udel.edu/dgs
        Email:rockman@...   Phone:(302)831-8262    FAX:(302)831-3579
         


        From: aletheia kallos [mailto:aletheiak@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 10:43 PM
        To: William Schenck
        Subject: RE: delawares 180th boundary rock

        thanx friend
        good stuff all
        & i look forward to finding the nathan booklet too

        but in the meantime
        if i may offer a half educated opinion or less

        in view of the extreme & indeed pivotal importance of this hickory stump point
        thru the centuries
        rather than just in relation to the work of 1701
        or of 1849
        or of 1892 etc
        it seems a travesty of data collection to so willfully ignore it just because you cant accept
        on purely technical grounds
        this perfect reenactment & indeed monumental perpetuation in stone

        it seems to me
        better to include & elucidate it in the data base in order to expressly disqualify it there for the perfectly good reason you do have for excluding it

        if nothing else its geocoords & story are important for study of the boundary history
        & it is a tripoint after all too
        rather than just a simple boundary point

        the fact that kennett & pennsbury probably did it in the 20th century rather than delaware & pennsylvania in the 19th shouldnt matter so much in the great scheme of things

        the point always did & still does mark the delaware state border

        in fact it would be nice to know for a fact who really did mark it so wonderfully like this
        & when

        well
        thanxxx very much for your attention & these fine gifts too

        --- On Tue, 12/2/08, William Schenck <rockman@...> wrote:
        From: William Schenck <rockman@...>
        Subject: RE: delawares 180th boundary rock
        To: aletheiak@...
        Date: Tuesday, December 2, 2008, 11:37 AM

        Thanks for your email Aletheia
         
        In trying to answer you question about the Letitia Penn Stone I can only say that the stone marked the place where a tree was originally used in the early 1700s to mark the edge of the 12-mile circle laid out by Taylor and Piersons in 1701. Are you familiar with the booklet "East of the Mason-Dixon Line" by Roger E. Nathan, published by the Delaware Heritage Commission in August 2000? Roger has described this area of the Delaware Boundary in some detail. The 1892 survey and monumenting of the DE-PA line by Col. W. C. Hodgkins of the US Coast and Geodetic Survey was accepted by the States of DE and PA. That survey did not include the penn monument marking the location of the Hickory stump (also the county corner between Kennett and Pennsbury townships as well as the line between Chester and New Castle Counties). Hodgkins monuments were placed every 1/2 mile, but he used the "Kennett-Pennsbury Corner" in his survey. Since the Boundary commission at the time for both states accepted the monuments in the Hodgkins' survey, the stump marker is not an "Official" boundary monument recognized currently by law.
         
        It gets quite complicated and although I can't send you Roger's book, I have attached a scan of the Hodgkins survey and a 1934 circular boundary article from the Civil Engineering journal by Lynn Perry..  You can contact the DE Heritage Commission and obtain a copy of the Nathan book I am sure or your local library should have it.
         
        I hope this information helps
         
        Sandy Schenck
         
        *-*-*-*-*-This note composed of 100% recyclable electrons*-*-*-*-*-*
        William "Sandy" Schenck, P. G.
        Scientist, Delaware DataMIL
        Delaware Geological Survey
        University of Delaware
        Newark, DE  19716-7501
         
        Web:  http://www.udel.edu/dgs
        Email:rockman@...   Phone:(302)831-8262    FAX:(302)831-3579
         


        From: aletheia kallos [mailto:aletheiak@...]
        Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 8:26 AM
        To: Rockman@...
        Subject: delawares 180th boundary rock

        hi sandy

        can you tell me why the beautiful & historically important letitia penn stone pictured at the bottom of this page
        http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/6782
        & situated just off burnt mill road a few hundred feet west of arc boundary monument 11
        is not included in the official delaware state boundary monument data basec
        nor in your own personal count of 179
        http://www.dgs.udel.edu/publications/infoseries/info6.aspx

        thanx for your attention

        sincerely
        ak


      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.