Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

SV: [BoundaryPoint] dzlytn

Expand Messages
  • Jesper Nielsen/Borderbase
    Using this better map
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 1, 2007
    • 0 Attachment

      Using this better map http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/north_africa/txu-oclc-6949452-nh32-7.jpg I have adjusted pushpin

       

      Attachment new pushpin position and map overlay.

       


      Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aletheia kallos
      Sendt: 10. september 2006 21:52
      Til: boundarypoint@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: [BoundaryPoint] dzlytn

       

      since this tripoint is in dispute
      2 or more different positions up to 2 km apart are
      possible

      but based on a 1970 lytn delimitation
      brownlie & ibs 121 at least seem to agree upon a rocky
      hilltop
      at very roughly n lat 30d13m30s & e long 9d33m30s

      i say very roughly because the position was originally
      expressed by them decimally to the nearest tenth of a
      minute
      & thus might also indicate only the nearest quarter of
      a minute
      or even only the nearest half minute
      just as easily as the nearest tenth of a minute

      but it is in any case the exact geoposition marked by
      jespers pushpin at this time

      my own guessed position would be the most auspicious
      looking hilltop in the vicinity of the above geocoords
      & this is again indicated by the little red square in
      the attachment
      but this time it is necessarily a very wild guess
      indeed

      best available map
      http://mapy. mk.cvut.cz/ data/Libie- Libya/english/ map1-11.jpg

      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail. yahoo.com

    • aletheia kallos
      great thanx pal i had forgotten about that map & the overlay is coming thru loud & clear this time at google earth but this is very curious on several counts
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 1, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        great thanx pal

        i had forgotten about that map

        & the overlay is coming thru loud & clear this time at
        google earth

        but this is very curious on several counts

        first
        i dont see any change in your pushpin position
        so please double check your new pushpin attachment for
        me
        just to make sure it really is working properly

        & or just confirm what i assume
        which is that you simply placed the pushpin at the
        tripoint position indicated on this map

        but secondly & more importantly
        tho you are right that this map is much better
        nevertheless it dates from 1956
        & the tripoint position presumably changed in 1970
        per brownlie & ibs 121

        however your map may not really be outdated at all
        & the dztn alignment shown on it could well be correct
        since we know that that really changed before 1956
        when algeria & tunisia were both french colonies
        & that the 1970 lytn dzlytn redelimitation simply
        reflected that earlier change

        if you are curious about this
        compare the original 1911 tripoint shown here as garet
        hamel
        http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/maps/bs1a.html
        with the dzlytn tripoint position shown on your 1956
        map
        http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/north_africa/txu-oclc-6949452-nh32-7.jpg

        gadames is rhadames
        & garet hamel is the 387m elevation highpoint to the
        southwest of it
        at the binational tripoint of the algerian colonial
        territories of oasis & touggourt
        which survive today as ouargla & illizi provinces
        http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/algeria_admin01.jpg

        or in other words there was a historic quadripoint
        there at garet hamel

        the really curious part tho is that ibs 121 gives no
        reason to believe the original 1911 frit border has
        changed in becoming modern dzly & lytn
        but only that the dztn convergent has been pivoted
        slightly from garet hamel northeastward to a different
        hilltop above the diversion channel

        what is most tantalizing tho is that i cant figure out
        how the original dztn could ever have cleared the
        westernmost corner of libya to reach garet hamel
        since it is a geodetic line segment without the
        ability to turn corners
        & would necessarily have struck the westward
        projection & border of libya some distance north of
        garet hamel

        tho ibs number 1 re dzly is clear about the tripoint
        position as of 1961
        it is clearly unsure about the other convergents of
        the trijunction
        & possibly at a loss to elucidate this very question

        & the absence of any ibs number at all for dztn may
        point to the same embarrassment or cluelessness
        regarding its terminal delimitation

        it is a stunning & outstanding question

        & it may well be that the impossibility of answering
        it is precisely what caused the french to move the
        merely hypothetical but actually impossible tripoint
        at some point
        to an actually possible position
        or
        from the hilltop southwest of gadames to the hilltop
        northeast of it

        for that way there is no longer any impossibly far
        corner to turn
        & still a hilltop to pin the tripoint on

        now
        to return to the question of modern dzlytn
        i have assumed your map is essentially correct
        notwithstanding the considerable disagreement in the
        satpic image of the wadi
        but i am also continuing to assume that brownlie is
        even more essentially correct in specifying a hilltop

        & fortunately your map shows the tripoint to be
        situated on higher ground than the wadi itself
        or on an island within the wadi & or diversion channel


        so i have probed google earth for this prominence &
        its summit point

        & tho it doesnt match the overlay very well
        the position was not at all difficult to find

        so i am assuming its geophysical reality trumps both
        the technical accuracy of the overlay positioning &
        the technical accuracy of the border depictions on
        this map
        since they do warn you these are unreliable

        & thus my attached revised tripoint stretching diagram
        try
        first with the map & your old pushpin so you can
        compare our tries
        & then without the map so you can see the topography
        in the satpic

        --- Jesper Nielsen/Borderbase <jesper@...>
        wrote:

        > Using this better map
        >
        <http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/north_africa/txu-oclc-6949452-nh32-7.jpg
        > >
        >
        http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/north_africa/txu-oclc-6949452-nh32-7.jpg
        > I have adjusted pushpin
        >
        >
        >
        > Attachment new pushpin position and map overlay.
        >
        >
        >
        > _____
        >
        > Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com] På
        > vegne af aletheia kallos
        > Sendt: 10. september 2006 21:52
        > Til: boundarypoint@yahoogroups.com
        > Emne: [BoundaryPoint] dzlytn
        >
        >
        >
        > since this tripoint is in dispute
        > 2 or more different positions up to 2 km apart are
        > possible
        >
        > but based on a 1970 lytn delimitation
        > brownlie & ibs 121 at least seem to agree upon a
        > rocky
        > hilltop
        > at very roughly n lat 30d13m30s & e long 9d33m30s
        >
        > i say very roughly because the position was
        > originally
        > expressed by them decimally to the nearest tenth of
        > a
        > minute
        > & thus might also indicate only the nearest quarter
        > of
        > a minute
        > or even only the nearest half minute
        > just as easily as the nearest tenth of a minute
        >
        > but it is in any case the exact geoposition marked
        > by
        > jespers pushpin at this time
        >
        > my own guessed position would be the most auspicious
        > looking hilltop in the vicinity of the above
        > geocoords
        > & this is again indicated by the little red square
        > in
        > the attachment
        > but this time it is necessarily a very wild guess
        > indeed
        >
        > best available map
        > http://mapy.
        >
        <http://mapy.mk.cvut.cz/data/Libie-Libya/english/map1-11.jpg>
        > mk.cvut.cz/data/Libie-Libya/english/map1-11.jpg
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
        > protection around
        > http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com
        >
        >
        >
        >



        ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready for the edge of your seat?
        Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
        http://tv.yahoo.com/
      • aletheiak
        oops rereading our brownlie notes http://home.worldonline.dk/jesniel/border/african_tripoints.htm#dzlytn i realize i need to correct myself about the
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 2, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          oops
          rereading our brownlie notes
          http://home.worldonline.dk/jesniel/border/african_tripoints.htm#dzlytn
          i realize i need to correct myself about the supposedly original 1911 frit border
          which has become lytn & dzly today

          of course it was actually born as frtr then & didnt become frit til later in 1911

          & it is also good to be reminded there about the full 2 km worth of uncertainty that
          appears to prevail regarding the true position of this tripoint

          i still dont know of any tripartite understanding about it

          only 2 slightly different french maps & a subsequent lytn dzlytn agreement based upon
          one of them rather then the other

          so that really is 2 km worth of metaphorical & real shifty sands

          my earlier try was 1300 meters northeast of my present guess
          http://article.gmane.org/gmane.culture.discuss.boundary-point/9210

          all 4 of our respective guesses & secondguesses are within 2 km of the others

          clearly more research is warranted

          --- In boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com, aletheia kallos <aletheiak@...> wrote:
          >
          > great thanx pal
          >
          > i had forgotten about that map
          >
          > & the overlay is coming thru loud & clear this time at
          > google earth
          >
          > but this is very curious on several counts
          >
          > first
          > i dont see any change in your pushpin position
          > so please double check your new pushpin attachment for
          > me
          > just to make sure it really is working properly
          >
          > & or just confirm what i assume
          > which is that you simply placed the pushpin at the
          > tripoint position indicated on this map
          >
          > but secondly & more importantly
          > tho you are right that this map is much better
          > nevertheless it dates from 1956
          > & the tripoint position presumably changed in 1970
          > per brownlie & ibs 121
          >
          > however your map may not really be outdated at all
          > & the dztn alignment shown on it could well be correct
          > since we know that that really changed before 1956
          > when algeria & tunisia were both french colonies
          > & that the 1970 lytn dzlytn redelimitation simply
          > reflected that earlier change
          >
          > if you are curious about this
          > compare the original 1911 tripoint shown here as garet
          > hamel
          > http://www.law.fsu.edu/library/collection/LimitsinSeas/maps/bs1a.html
          > with the dzlytn tripoint position shown on your 1956
          > map
          > http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/north_africa/txu-oclc-6949452-nh32-7.jpg
          >
          > gadames is rhadames
          > & garet hamel is the 387m elevation highpoint to the
          > southwest of it
          > at the binational tripoint of the algerian colonial
          > territories of oasis & touggourt
          > which survive today as ouargla & illizi provinces
          > http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/africa/algeria_admin01.jpg
          >
          > or in other words there was a historic quadripoint
          > there at garet hamel
          >
          > the really curious part tho is that ibs 121 gives no
          > reason to believe the original 1911 frit border has
          > changed in becoming modern dzly & lytn
          > but only that the dztn convergent has been pivoted
          > slightly from garet hamel northeastward to a different
          > hilltop above the diversion channel
          >
          > what is most tantalizing tho is that i cant figure out
          > how the original dztn could ever have cleared the
          > westernmost corner of libya to reach garet hamel
          > since it is a geodetic line segment without the
          > ability to turn corners
          > & would necessarily have struck the westward
          > projection & border of libya some distance north of
          > garet hamel
          >
          > tho ibs number 1 re dzly is clear about the tripoint
          > position as of 1961
          > it is clearly unsure about the other convergents of
          > the trijunction
          > & possibly at a loss to elucidate this very question
          >
          > & the absence of any ibs number at all for dztn may
          > point to the same embarrassment or cluelessness
          > regarding its terminal delimitation
          >
          > it is a stunning & outstanding question
          >
          > & it may well be that the impossibility of answering
          > it is precisely what caused the french to move the
          > merely hypothetical but actually impossible tripoint
          > at some point
          > to an actually possible position
          > or
          > from the hilltop southwest of gadames to the hilltop
          > northeast of it
          >
          > for that way there is no longer any impossibly far
          > corner to turn
          > & still a hilltop to pin the tripoint on
          >
          > now
          > to return to the question of modern dzlytn
          > i have assumed your map is essentially correct
          > notwithstanding the considerable disagreement in the
          > satpic image of the wadi
          > but i am also continuing to assume that brownlie is
          > even more essentially correct in specifying a hilltop
          >
          > & fortunately your map shows the tripoint to be
          > situated on higher ground than the wadi itself
          > or on an island within the wadi & or diversion channel
          >
          >
          > so i have probed google earth for this prominence &
          > its summit point
          >
          > & tho it doesnt match the overlay very well
          > the position was not at all difficult to find
          >
          > so i am assuming its geophysical reality trumps both
          > the technical accuracy of the overlay positioning &
          > the technical accuracy of the border depictions on
          > this map
          > since they do warn you these are unreliable
          >
          > & thus my attached revised tripoint stretching diagram
          > try
          > first with the map & your old pushpin so you can
          > compare our tries
          > & then without the map so you can see the topography
          > in the satpic
          >
          > --- Jesper Nielsen/Borderbase <jesper@...>
          > wrote:
          >
          > > Using this better map
          > >
          > <http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/north_africa/txu-oclc-6949452-nh32-7.jpg
          > > >
          > >
          > http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/ams/north_africa/txu-oclc-6949452-nh32-7.jpg
          > > I have adjusted pushpin
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Attachment new pushpin position and map overlay.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > _____
          > >
          > > Fra: BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com
          > > [mailto:BoundaryPoint@yahoogroups.com] På
          > > vegne af aletheia kallos
          > > Sendt: 10. september 2006 21:52
          > > Til: boundarypoint@yahoogroups.com
          > > Emne: [BoundaryPoint] dzlytn
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > since this tripoint is in dispute
          > > 2 or more different positions up to 2 km apart are
          > > possible
          > >
          > > but based on a 1970 lytn delimitation
          > > brownlie & ibs 121 at least seem to agree upon a
          > > rocky
          > > hilltop
          > > at very roughly n lat 30d13m30s & e long 9d33m30s
          > >
          > > i say very roughly because the position was
          > > originally
          > > expressed by them decimally to the nearest tenth of
          > > a
          > > minute
          > > & thus might also indicate only the nearest quarter
          > > of
          > > a minute
          > > or even only the nearest half minute
          > > just as easily as the nearest tenth of a minute
          > >
          > > but it is in any case the exact geoposition marked
          > > by
          > > jespers pushpin at this time
          > >
          > > my own guessed position would be the most auspicious
          > > looking hilltop in the vicinity of the above
          > > geocoords
          > > & this is again indicated by the little red square
          > > in
          > > the attachment
          > > but this time it is necessarily a very wild guess
          > > indeed
          > >
          > > best available map
          > > http://mapy.
          > >
          > <http://mapy.mk.cvut.cz/data/Libie-Libya/english/map1-11.jpg>
          > > mk.cvut.cz/data/Libie-Libya/english/map1-11.jpg
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do You Yahoo!?
          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
          > > protection around
          > > http://mail. <http://mail.yahoo.com> yahoo.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          ____________________________________________________________________________________Rea
          dy for the edge of your seat?
          > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
          > http://tv.yahoo.com/
          >
        • Jesper Nielsen/Borderbase
          The two Algier maps was alignment with Google maps using the coordinate grids (I normally try to align using the physical features on the ground. The tp
          Message 4 of 4 , Jun 4, 2007
          • 0 Attachment

            The two Algier maps was alignment with Google maps using the coordinate grids (I normally try to align using the physical features on the ground.

             

            The tp positions has been places where the maps put them.

             

            Yes, there is something wrong with the pushpin KML (and many others), so I will resend it.

             

            Jesper

             


            Fra: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af aletheia kallos
            Sendt: 2. juni 2007 04:34
            Til: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: Re: [boundarypointpoint] SV: [BoundaryPoint] dzlytn

             

            great thanx pal

            i had forgotten about that map

            & the overlay is coming thru loud & clear this time at
            google earth

            but this is very curious on several counts

            first
            i dont see any change in your pushpin position
            so please double check your new pushpin attachment for
            me
            just to make sure it really is working properly

            & or just confirm what i assume
            which is that you simply placed the pushpin at the
            tripoint position indicated on this map

            but secondly & more importantly
            tho you are right that this map is much better
            nevertheless it dates from 1956
            & the tripoint position presumably changed in 1970
            per brownlie & ibs 121

            however your map may not really be outdated at all
            & the dztn alignment shown on it could well be correct
            since we know that that really changed before 1956
            when algeria & tunisia were both french colonies
            & that the 1970 lytn dzlytn redelimitation simply
            reflected that earlier change

            if you are curious about this
            compare the original 1911 tripoint shown here as garet
            hamel
            http://www.law. fsu.edu/library/ collection/ LimitsinSeas/ maps/bs1a. html
            with the dzlytn tripoint position shown on your 1956
            map
            http://www.lib. utexas.edu/ maps/ams/ north_africa/ txu-oclc- 6949452-nh32- 7.jpg

            gadames is rhadames
            & garet hamel is the 387m elevation highpoint to the
            southwest of it
            at the binational tripoint of the algerian colonial
            territories of oasis & touggourt
            which survive today as ouargla & illizi provinces
            http://www.lib. utexas.edu/ maps/africa/ algeria_admin01. jpg

            or in other words there was a historic quadripoint
            there at garet hamel

            the really curious part tho is that ibs 121 gives no
            reason to believe the original 1911 frit border has
            changed in becoming modern dzly & lytn
            but only that the dztn convergent has been pivoted
            slightly from garet hamel northeastward to a different
            hilltop above the diversion channel

            what is most tantalizing tho is that i cant figure out
            how the original dztn could ever have cleared the
            westernmost corner of libya to reach garet hamel
            since it is a geodetic line segment without the
            ability to turn corners
            & would necessarily have struck the westward
            projection & border of libya some distance north of
            garet hamel

            tho ibs number 1 re dzly is clear about the tripoint
            position as of 1961
            it is clearly unsure about the other convergents of
            the trijunction
            & possibly at a loss to elucidate this very question

            & the absence of any ibs number at all for dztn may
            point to the same embarrassment or cluelessness
            regarding its terminal delimitation

            it is a stunning & outstanding question

            & it may well be that the impossibility of answering
            it is precisely what caused the french to move the
            merely hypothetical but actually impossible tripoint
            at some point
            to an actually possible position
            or
            from the hilltop southwest of gadames to the hilltop
            northeast of it

            for that way there is no longer any impossibly far
            corner to turn
            & still a hilltop to pin the tripoint on

            now
            to return to the question of modern dzlytn
            i have assumed your map is essentially correct
            notwithstanding the considerable disagreement in the
            satpic image of the wadi
            but i am also continuing to assume that brownlie is
            even more essentially correct in specifying a hilltop

            & fortunately your map shows the tripoint to be
            situated on higher ground than the wadi itself
            or on an island within the wadi & or diversion channel


            so i have probed google earth for this prominence &
            its summit point

            & tho it doesnt match the overlay very well
            the position was not at all difficult to find

            so i am assuming its geophysical reality trumps both
            the technical accuracy of the overlay positioning &
            the technical accuracy of the border depictions on
            this map
            since they do warn you these are unreliable

            & thus my attached revised tripoint stretching diagram
            try
            first with the map & your old pushpin so you can
            compare our tries
            & then without the map so you can see the topography
            in the satpic

            --- Jesper Nielsen /Borderbase <jesper@nicolette. dk>
            wrote:

            > Using this better map
            >
            <http://www.lib. utexas.edu/ maps/ams/ north_africa/ txu-oclc- 6949452-nh32- 7.jpg
            > >
            >
            http://www.lib. utexas.edu/ maps/ams/ north_africa/ txu-oclc- 6949452-nh32- 7.jpg
            > I have adjusted pushpin
            >
            >
            >
            > Attachment new pushpin position and map overlay.
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > Fra: BoundaryPoint@ yahoogroups. com
            > [mailto:BoundaryPoint@ yahoogroups. com]

            > vegne af aletheia kallos
            > Sendt: 10. september 2006 21:52
            > Til: boundarypoint@ yahoogroups. com
            > Emne: [BoundaryPoint] dzlytn
            >
            >
            >
            > since this tripoint is in dispute
            > 2 or more different positions up to
            w:st="on">2 km apart are
            > possible
            >
            > but based on a 1970 lytn delimitation
            > brownlie & ibs 121 at least seem to agree upon a
            > rocky
            > hilltop
            > at very roughly n lat 30d13m30s & e long 9d33m30s
            >
            > i say very roughly because the position was
            > originally
            > expressed by them decimally to the nearest tenth of
            > a
            > minute
            > & thus might also indicate only the nearest quarter
            > of
            > a minute
            > or even only the nearest half minute
            > just as easily as the nearest tenth of a minute
            >
            > but it is in any case the exact geoposition marked
            > by
            > jespers pushpin at this time
            >
            > my own guessed position would be the most auspicious
            > looking hilltop in the vicinity of the above
            > geocoords
            > & this is again indicated by the little red square
            > in
            > the attachment
            > but this time it is necessarily a very wild guess
            > indeed
            >
            > best available map
            > http://mapy.
            >
            <http://mapy. mk.cvut.cz/ data/Libie- Libya/english/ map1-11.jpg>
            > mk.cvut.cz/data/ Libie-Libya/ english/map1- 11.jpg
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ __
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
            > protection around
            > http://mail. <http://mail. yahoo.com>
            yahoo.com
            >
            >
            >
            >

            ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _Ready for the edge of your seat?
            Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
            http://tv.yahoo. com/

          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.