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disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify

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  • Aletheia Kallos
    fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 1, 2012
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      fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
      but even the ethnic fragments are themselves fragmenting
      while the yanks et al can only wave their arms from the sidelines
       
      could be the perfect storm & sword to finally cut the westphalian gordian knot
       
      hurray for everyone
       
       
    • David Phillips
      I have never quite understood why Turkey, in its fanatical opposition to a Kurdish state, does not see that establishing a Kurdish state on someone else s
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 1, 2012
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        I have never quite understood why Turkey, in its fanatical opposition to a Kurdish state, does not see that establishing a Kurdish state on someone else's territory, like Iraq but Syria would be OK too, takes pressure off Turkey vis-a-vis their own Kurds.  By maintaining an iron determination not to allow Kurdistan in Turkey, but encouraging it in Iraq, Turkey could provide an alternative outlet for Kurdish national aspirations and a magnet for activists outside its border.  Why not go to Kurdistan rather than fight to the death inside Turkey, many will feel, and the hard core could be arrested as they are now, but released to Kurdistan if they would agree to go.  If there had been an independent Armenian state just outside Turkey's borders in 1915, say, a lot of unpleasantness could possibly have been avoided. 


        From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aletheia Kallos
        Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 7:53 AM
        To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify

         

        fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
        but even the ethnic fragments are themselves fragmenting
        while the yanks et al can only wave their arms from the sidelines
         
        could be the perfect storm & sword to finally cut the westphalian gordian knot
         
        hurray for everyone
         
         

      • aletheia kallos
        yes quite & we are probably seeking to identify too much of a quantum leap here in only a century but it seems to me that the early 20th century was
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 1, 2012
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          yes quite & we are probably seeking to identify too much of a quantum leap here in only a century but it seems to me that the early 20th century was borderifically hyperwestphalian at high water mark while the 21st is already seeing in many places a restoration or regeneration of the prewestphalian world order in which frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature & states breathe a bit easier perhaps beyond or within both established & flexible boundary corsets
           
          & this revival seems a necessary first step on the journey to everyones land
          even if the border paralysis of westphalian norms doesnt represent a halt in human evolution
           
          but the question of which system might ultimately be more pleasant & therefore better is i think trumped if not actually answered in exquisite detail by the electromagnetic force of every thought everyone offers
           
          for we are all in fact drawing attracting creating our own realities & therefore some of us more masterfully & pleasantly so than others in any case
          while general progress measurable as increased general pleasantness just bumbles along rather than staggers lurches & marches on

          From: David Phillips <dfp18@...>
          To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 11:12 AM
          Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
           
          I have never quite understood why Turkey, in its fanatical opposition to a Kurdish state, does not see that establishing a Kurdish state on someone else's territory, like Iraq but Syria would be OK too, takes pressure off Turkey vis-a-vis their own Kurds.  By maintaining an iron determination not to allow Kurdistan in Turkey, but encouraging it in Iraq, Turkey could provide an alternative outlet for Kurdish national aspirations and a magnet for activists outside its border.  Why not go to Kurdistan rather than fight to the death inside Turkey, many will feel, and the hard core could be arrested as they are now, but released to Kurdistan if they would agree to go.  If there had been an independent Armenian state just outside Turkey's borders in 1915, say, a lot of unpleasantness could possibly have been avoided. 
          From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aletheia Kallos
          Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 7:53 AM
          To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
           
          fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
          http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/fighting-erupts-between-syrian-rebels-and-kurds/2012/10/31/fedd811a-239e-11e2-92f8-7f9c4daf276a_story.html
          but even the ethnic fragments are themselves fragmenting
          http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/31/us-syria-crisis-palestinians-idUSBRE89U1I320121031
          while the yanks et al can only wave their arms from the sidelines
          http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/middleeast/syrian-air-raids-increase-as-battle-for-strategic-areas-intensifies-rebels-say.html?ref=world
           
          could be the perfect storm & sword to finally cut the westphalian gordian knot
           
          hurray for everyone
           
           
        • David Phillips
          I think this is a misreading and perhaps idealizing of the Pre-Westphalian situation. The Peace of Westphalia, in Germany anyway, was a rationalization of the
          Message 4 of 9 , Nov 1, 2012
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            I think this is a misreading and perhaps idealizing of the Pre-Westphalian situation.  The Peace of Westphalia, in Germany anyway, was a rationalization of the chaos formed by centuries of division of lands, subinfeudation, and whatnot.  I don't think it is right to say that where now arguably frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature that that is is any sense a "regeneration" of the pre-Westphalian situation.  Now borders ebb and flow as people and nations try to implement what they see as their right to self-determination, a distinctly post-Westphalian concept.  There was little of that in the period before 1648, with a few exceptions like the Netherlands and Switzerland whose independence Westphalia recognized.  Even distinct nation-states in like France and Sweden 1648 saw their boundaries as a function of the dynastic, feudal and military reach of their sovereigns; the simplifications of Westphalia reorganized the territories of Central Europe, especially Germany, without changing the theoretical foundation of sovereignty.


            From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
            Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:26 AM
            To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify

             

            yes quite & we are probably seeking to identify too much of a quantum leap here in only a century but it seems to me that the early 20th century was borderifically hyperwestphalian at high water mark while the 21st is already seeing in many places a restoration or regeneration of the prewestphalian world order in which frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature & states breathe a bit easier perhaps beyond or within both established & flexible boundary corsets
             
            & this revival seems a necessary first step on the journey to everyones land
            even if the border paralysis of westphalian norms doesnt represent a halt in human evolution
             
            but the question of which system might ultimately be more pleasant & therefore better is i think trumped if not actually answered in exquisite detail by the electromagnetic force of every thought everyone offers
             
            for we are all in fact drawing attracting creating our own realities & therefore some of us more masterfully & pleasantly so than others in any case
            while general progress measurable as increased general pleasantness just bumbles along rather than staggers lurches & marches on

            From: David Phillips <dfp18@...>
            To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 11:12 AM
            Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
             
            I have never quite understood why Turkey, in its fanatical opposition to a Kurdish state, does not see that establishing a Kurdish state on someone else's territory, like Iraq but Syria would be OK too, takes pressure off Turkey vis-a-vis their own Kurds.  By maintaining an iron determination not to allow Kurdistan in Turkey, but encouraging it in Iraq, Turkey could provide an alternative outlet for Kurdish national aspirations and a magnet for activists outside its border.  Why not go to Kurdistan rather than fight to the death inside Turkey, many will feel, and the hard core could be arrested as they are now, but released to Kurdistan if they would agree to go.  If there had been an independent Armenian state just outside Turkey's borders in 1915, say, a lot of unpleasantness could possibly have been avoided. 
            From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aletheia Kallos
            Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 7:53 AM
            To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
             
            fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
            http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/fighting-erupts-between-syrian-rebels-and-kurds/2012/10/31/fedd811a-239e-11e2-92f8-7f9c4daf276a_story.html
            but even the ethnic fragments are themselves fragmenting
            http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/31/us-syria-crisis-palestinians-idUSBRE89U1I320121031
            while the yanks et al can only wave their arms from the sidelines
            http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/middleeast/syrian-air-raids-increase-as-battle-for-strategic-areas-intensifies-rebels-say.html?ref=world
             
            could be the perfect storm & sword to finally cut the westphalian gordian knot
             
            hurray for everyone
             
             

          • David Phillips
            in like France and Sweden 1648 should of course read like France and Sweden in 1648 _____ From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 1, 2012
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              in like France and Sweden 1648
                  should of course read
              like France and Sweden in 1648


              From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Phillips
              Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:42 AM
              To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify

               

              I think this is a misreading and perhaps idealizing of the Pre-Westphalian situation.  The Peace of Westphalia, in Germany anyway, was a rationalization of the chaos formed by centuries of division of lands, subinfeudation, and whatnot.  I don't think it is right to say that where now arguably frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature that that is is any sense a "regeneration" of the pre-Westphalian situation.  Now borders ebb and flow as people and nations try to implement what they see as their right to self-determination, a distinctly post-Westphalian concept.  There was little of that in the period before 1648, with a few exceptions like the Netherlands and Switzerland whose independence Westphalia recognized.  Even distinct nation-states in like France and Sweden 1648 saw their boundaries as a function of the dynastic, feudal and military reach of their sovereigns; the simplifications of Westphalia reorganized the territories of Central Europe, especially Germany, without changing the theoretical foundation of sovereignty.


              From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
              Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:26 AM
              To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify

               

              yes quite & we are probably seeking to identify too much of a quantum leap here in only a century but it seems to me that the early 20th century was borderifically hyperwestphalian at high water mark while the 21st is already seeing in many places a restoration or regeneration of the prewestphalian world order in which frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature & states breathe a bit easier perhaps beyond or within both established & flexible boundary corsets
               
              & this revival seems a necessary first step on the journey to everyones land
              even if the border paralysis of westphalian norms doesnt represent a halt in human evolution
               
              but the question of which system might ultimately be more pleasant & therefore better is i think trumped if not actually answered in exquisite detail by the electromagnetic force of every thought everyone offers
               
              for we are all in fact drawing attracting creating our own realities & therefore some of us more masterfully & pleasantly so than others in any case
              while general progress measurable as increased general pleasantness just bumbles along rather than staggers lurches & marches on

              From: David Phillips <dfp18@...>
              To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 11:12 AM
              Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
               
              I have never quite understood why Turkey, in its fanatical opposition to a Kurdish state, does not see that establishing a Kurdish state on someone else's territory, like Iraq but Syria would be OK too, takes pressure off Turkey vis-a-vis their own Kurds.  By maintaining an iron determination not to allow Kurdistan in Turkey, but encouraging it in Iraq, Turkey could provide an alternative outlet for Kurdish national aspirations and a magnet for activists outside its border.  Why not go to Kurdistan rather than fight to the death inside Turkey, many will feel, and the hard core could be arrested as they are now, but released to Kurdistan if they would agree to go.  If there had been an independent Armenian state just outside Turkey's borders in 1915, say, a lot of unpleasantness could possibly have been avoided. 
              From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aletheia Kallos
              Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 7:53 AM
              To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
               
              fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
              http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/fighting-erupts-between-syrian-rebels-and-kurds/2012/10/31/fedd811a-239e-11e2-92f8-7f9c4daf276a_story.html
              but even the ethnic fragments are themselves fragmenting
              http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/31/us-syria-crisis-palestinians-idUSBRE89U1I320121031
              while the yanks et al can only wave their arms from the sidelines
              http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/middleeast/syrian-air-raids-increase-as-battle-for-strategic-areas-intensifies-rebels-say.html?ref=world
               
              could be the perfect storm & sword to finally cut the westphalian gordian knot
               
              hurray for everyone
               
               

            • aletheia kallos
              ok understood & leaving aside my possibly inept metaphory when i say westphalian i am not so focused on 1648 per se as i am on all the boundarymaking that
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 1, 2012
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                ok understood
                & leaving aside my possibly inept metaphory
                when i say westphalian i am not so focused on 1648 per se
                as i am on all the boundarymaking that has taken place ever since 1648 upon the model of 1648
                when what used to be loose frontiers by & large 
                began fairly suddenly & on a large scale to become fixed boundaries by & large
                 
                & it is this technical distinction more than the general historical drift at that time or at the present time that i am referring to
                 
                 
                From: David Phillips <dfp18@...>
                To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:45 PM
                Subject: [boundarypointpoint] Oops
                 
                in like France and Sweden 1648
                    should of course read
                like France and Sweden in 1648
                From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Phillips
                Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:42 AM
                To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                 
                I think this is a misreading and perhaps idealizing of the Pre-Westphalian situation.  The Peace of Westphalia, in Germany anyway, was a rationalization of the chaos formed by centuries of division of lands, subinfeudation, and whatnot.  I don't think it is right to say that where now arguably frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature that that is is any sense a "regeneration" of the pre-Westphalian situation.  Now borders ebb and flow as people and nations try to implement what they see as their right to self-determination, a distinctly post-Westphalian concept.  There was little of that in the period before 1648, with a few exceptions like the Netherlands and Switzerland whose independence Westphalia recognized.  Even distinct nation-states in like France and Sweden 1648 saw their boundaries as a function of the dynastic, feudal and military reach of their sovereigns; the simplifications of Westphalia reorganized the territories of Central Europe, especially Germany, without changing the theoretical foundation of sovereignty.
                From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
                Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:26 AM
                To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                 
                yes quite & we are probably seeking to identify too much of a quantum leap here in only a century but it seems to me that the early 20th century was borderifically hyperwestphalian at high water mark while the 21st is already seeing in many places a restoration or regeneration of the prewestphalian world order in which frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature & states breathe a bit easier perhaps beyond or within both established & flexible boundary corsets
                 
                & this revival seems a necessary first step on the journey to everyones land
                even if the border paralysis of westphalian norms doesnt represent a halt in human evolution
                 
                but the question of which system might ultimately be more pleasant & therefore better is i think trumped if not actually answered in exquisite detail by the electromagnetic force of every thought everyone offers
                 
                for we are all in fact drawing attracting creating our own realities & therefore some of us more masterfully & pleasantly so than others in any case
                while general progress measurable as increased general pleasantness just bumbles along rather than staggers lurches & marches on

                From: David Phillips <dfp18@...>
                To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 11:12 AM
                Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                 
                I have never quite understood why Turkey, in its fanatical opposition to a Kurdish state, does not see that establishing a Kurdish state on someone else's territory, like Iraq but Syria would be OK too, takes pressure off Turkey vis-a-vis their own Kurds.  By maintaining an iron determination not to allow Kurdistan in Turkey, but encouraging it in Iraq, Turkey could provide an alternative outlet for Kurdish national aspirations and a magnet for activists outside its border.  Why not go to Kurdistan rather than fight to the death inside Turkey, many will feel, and the hard core could be arrested as they are now, but released to Kurdistan if they would agree to go.  If there had been an independent Armenian state just outside Turkey's borders in 1915, say, a lot of unpleasantness could possibly have been avoided. 
                From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aletheia Kallos
                Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 7:53 AM
                To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                 
                fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
                http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/fighting-erupts-between-syrian-rebels-and-kurds/2012/10/31/fedd811a-239e-11e2-92f8-7f9c4daf276a_story.html
                but even the ethnic fragments are themselves fragmenting
                http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/31/us-syria-crisis-palestinians-idUSBRE89U1I320121031
                while the yanks et al can only wave their arms from the sidelines
                http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/middleeast/syrian-air-raids-increase-as-battle-for-strategic-areas-intensifies-rebels-say.html?ref=world
                 
                could be the perfect storm & sword to finally cut the westphalian gordian knot
                 
                hurray for everyone
                 
                 
              • David Phillips
                If I were searching for a metaphor I would choose 1789 rather than 1648. Until then, even after 1648, borders ebbed and flowed only as kings like Louis XIV
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 1, 2012
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                  If I were searching for a metaphor I would choose 1789 rather than 1648.  Until then, even after 1648, borders ebbed and flowed only as kings like Louis XIV were able to seize enclaves here and there, but things were still based on feudal relations and conquest.  After the French Revolution, and the subsequent wave of expansion France tried to enforce, at first at least on a revolutionary (that is a philosophical basis), is when the fundamental basis of European sovereignty changed, allowing of course for the precursors Netherlands, Switzerland and the United States.  Napoleon for example foreshadowed the unifications of Germany and Italy on a national basis, even if the reactionary peace conference undid them for a time.  If you want a Peace Conference to date the modern rigidity and later loosening from, I would suggest the Congress of Vienna rather than Westphalia for the constipation part, and the subsequent laxative of Versailles and the other treaties ending WWI, which redrew the map again at least partly on a philosophical rather than a solely military basis.  The feudal underpinnings of Westphalia (re-allocating fiefs among sovereigns without rethinking the basis for their boundaries), along with the ghost of the Empire, were all gone by 1815. 


                  From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
                  Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 10:05 AM
                  To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] Oops

                   

                  ok understood
                  & leaving aside my possibly inept metaphory
                  when i say westphalian i am not so focused on 1648 per se
                  as i am on all the boundarymaking that has taken place ever since 1648 upon the model of 1648
                  when what used to be loose frontiers by & large 
                  began fairly suddenly & on a large scale to become fixed boundaries by & large
                   
                  & it is this technical distinction more than the general historical drift at that time or at the present time that i am referring to
                   
                   
                  From: David Phillips <dfp18@...>
                  To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  S! ent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:45 PM
                  Subject: [boundarypointpoint] Oops
                   
                  in like France and Sweden 1648
                      should of course read
                  like France and Sweden in 1648
                  From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Phillips
                  Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:42 AM
                  To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                   
                  I think this is a misreading and perhaps idealizing of the Pre-Westphalian situation.  The Peace of Westphalia, in Germany anyway, was a rationalization of the chaos formed by centuries of division of lands, subinfeudation, and whatnot.  I don't think it is right to say that where now arguably frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature that that is is any sense a "regeneration" of the pre-Westphalian situation.  Now borders ebb and flow as people and nations try to implement what they see as their right to self-determination, a distinctly post-Westphalian concept.  There was little of that in the period before 1648, with a few exceptions like the Netherlands and Switzerland whose independence Westphalia recognized.  Even distinct nation-states in like France and Sweden 1648 saw their boundaries as a function of the dynastic, feudal and military reach of their sovereigns; the simplifications of Westphalia reorganized the territories of Central Europe, especially Germany, without changing the theoretical foundation of sovereignty.
                  From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
                  Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:26 AM
                  To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                   
                  yes quite & we are probably seeking to identify too much of a quantum leap here in only a century but it seems to me that the early 20th century was borderifically hyperwestphalian at high water mark while the 21st is already seeing in many places a restoration or regeneration of the prewestphalian world order in which frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature & states breathe a bit easier perhaps beyond or within both established & flexible boundary corsets
                   
                  & this revival seems a necessary first step on the journey to everyones land
                  even if the border paralysis of westphalian norms doesnt represent a halt in human evolution
                   
                  but the question of which system might ultimately be more pleasant & therefore better is i think trumped if not actually answered in exquisite detail by the electromagnetic force of every thought everyone offers
                   
                  for we are all in fact drawing attracting creating our own realities & therefore some of us more masterfully & pleasantly so than others in any case
                  while general progress measurable as increased general pleasantness just bumbles along rather than staggers lurches & marches on

                  From: David Phillips <dfp18@...>
                  To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 11:12 AM
                  Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                   
                  I have never quite understood why Turkey, in its fanatical opposition to a Kurdish state, does not see that establishing a Kurdish state on someone else's territory, like Iraq but Syria would be OK too, takes pressure off Turkey vis-a-vis their own Kurds.  By maintaining an iron determination not to allow Kurdistan in Turkey, but encouraging it in Iraq, Turkey could provide an alternative outlet for Kurdish national aspirations and a magnet for activists outside its border.  Why not go to Kurdistan rather than fight to the death inside Turkey, many will feel, and the hard core could be arrested as they are now, but released to Kurdistan if they would agree to go.  If there had been an independent Armenian state just outside Turkey's borders in 1915, say, a lot of unpleasantness could possibly have been avoided. 
                  From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aletheia Kallos
                  Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 7:53 AM
                  To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                   
                  fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
                  http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/fighting-erupts-between-syrian-rebels-and-kurds/2012/10/31/fedd811a-239e-11e2-92f8-7f9c4daf276a_story.html
                  but even the ethnic fragments are themselves fragmenting
                  http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/31/us-syria-crisis-palestinians-idUSBRE89U1I320121031
                  while the yanks et al can only wave their arms from the sidelines
                  http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/world/middleeast/syrian-air-raids-increase-as-battle-for-strategic-areas-intensifies-rebels-say.html?ref=world
                   
                  could be the perfect storm & sword to finally cut the westphalian gordian knot
                   
                  hurray for everyone
                   
                   

                • Aletheia Kallos
                  yes yes & excellent gut level metaphor hahaha so what appears to emerge suddenly in 1648 & appears to make additional quantum leaps forward in years such as
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 1, 2012
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                    yes yes & excellent gut level metaphor hahaha
                     
                    so what appears to emerge suddenly in 1648 & appears to make additional quantum leaps forward in years such as 1789 & 1815 & 1919
                    as a matter of human consciousness on the leading edge of thought
                    has really just been creeping or drifting rather steadily or unsteadily along all this time
                     
                    right up to the matter & the moment at hand
                     
                    when much of it appears to be crumbling before our eyes
                    so as to make way for something else perhaps
                    or else
                    is just directly reverting to that something else
                    by default
                     
                    & the apt metaphor may not yet be of generation or regeneration or of flows of nature etc but it is certainly already holocaustic catastrophic autumnal
                     
                    so
                    could spring be far behind
                     
                    kurdish spring
                     
                     
                    any spring

                    On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:23 PM, David Phillips <dfp18@...> wrote:
                     

                    If I were searching for a metaphor I would choose 1789 rather than 1648.  Until then, even after 1648, borders ebbed and flowed only as kings like Louis XIV were able to seize enclaves here and there, but things were still based on feudal relations and conquest.  After the French Revolution, and the subsequent wave of expansion France tried to enforce, at first at least on a revolutionary (that is a philosophical basis), is when the fundamental basis of European sovereignty changed, allowing of course for the precursors Netherlands, Switzerland and the United States.  Napoleon for example foreshadowed the unifications of Germany and Italy on a national basis, even if the reactionary peace conference undid them for a time.  If you want a Peace Conference to date the modern rigidity and later loosening from, I would suggest the Congress of Vienna rather than Westphalia for the constipation part, and the subsequent laxative of Versailles and the other treaties ending WWI, which redrew the map again at least partly on a philosophical rather than a solely military basis.  The feudal underpinnings of Westphalia (re-allocating fiefs among sovereigns without rethinking the basis for their boundaries), along with the ghost of the Empire, were all gone by 1815. 


                    Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 10:05 AM
                    To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] Oops

                     

                    ok understood
                    & leaving aside my possibly inept metaphory
                    when i say westphalian i am not so focused on 1648 per se
                    as i am on all the boundarymaking that has taken place ever since 1648 upon the model of 1648
                    when what used to be loose frontiers by & large 
                    began fairly suddenly & on a large scale to become fixed boundaries by & large
                     
                    & it is this technical distinction more than the general historical drift at that time or at the present time that i am referring to
                     
                     
                    S! ent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:45 PM
                    Subject: [boundarypointpoint] Oops
                     
                    in like France and Sweden 1648
                        should of course read
                    like France and Sweden in 1648
                    From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Phillips
                    Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:42 AM
                    To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                     
                    I think this is a misreading and perhaps idealizing of the Pre-Westphalian situation.  The Peace of Westphalia, in Germany anyway, was a rationalization of the chaos formed by centuries of division of lands, subinfeudation, and whatnot.  I don't think it is right to say that where now arguably frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature that that is is any sense a "regeneration" of the pre-Westphalian situation.  Now borders ebb and flow as people and nations try to implement what they see as their right to self-determination, a distinctly post-Westphalian concept.  There was little of that in the period before 1648, with a few exceptions like the Netherlands and Switzerland whose independence Westphalia recognized.  Even distinct nation-states in like France and Sweden 1648 saw their boundaries as a function of the dynastic, feudal and military reach of their sovereigns; the simplifications of Westphalia reorganized the territories of Central Europe, especially Germany, without changing the theoretical foundation of sovereignty.
                    From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
                    Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:26 AM
                    To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                     
                    yes quite & we are probably seeking to identify too much of a quantum leap here in only a century but it seems to me that the early 20th century was borderifically hyperwestphalian at high water mark while the 21st is already seeing in many places a restoration or regeneration of the prewestphalian world order in which frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature & states breathe a bit easier perhaps beyond or within both established & flexible boundary corsets
                     
                    & this revival seems a necessary first step on the journey to everyones land
                    even if the border paralysis of westphalian norms doesnt represent a halt in human evolution
                     
                    but the question of which system might ultimately be more pleasant & therefore better is i think trumped if not actually answered in exquisite detail by the electromagnetic force of every thought everyone offers
                     
                    for we are all in fact drawing attracting creating our own realities & therefore some of us more masterfully & pleasantly so than others in any case
                    while general progress measurable as increased general pleasantness just bumbles along rather than staggers lurches & marches on

                    From: David Phillips <dfp18@...>
                    To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 11:12 AM
                    Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                     
                    I have never quite understood why Turkey, in its fanatical opposition to a Kurdish state, does not see that establishing a Kurdish state on someone else's territory, like Iraq but Syria would be OK too, takes pressure off Turkey vis-a-vis their own Kurds.  By maintaining an iron determination not to allow Kurdistan in Turkey, but encouraging it in Iraq, Turkey could provide an alternative outlet for Kurdish national aspirations and a magnet for activists outside its border.  Why not go to Kurdistan rather than fight to the death inside Turkey, many will feel, and the hard core could be arrested as they are now, but released to Kurdistan if they would agree to go.  If there had been an independent Armenian state just outside Turkey's borders in 1915, say, a lot of unpleasantness could possibly have been avoided. 
                    From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aletheia Kallos
                    Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 7:53 AM
                    To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                     
                    fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
                    but even the ethnic fragments are themselves fragmenting
                    while the yanks et al can only wave their arms from the sidelines
                     
                    could be the perfect storm & sword to finally cut the westphalian gordian knot
                     
                    hurray for everyone
                     
                     


                  • David Phillips
                    Yes, I quite agree; and moreover to continue the gustatory metaphor we don t need to order more, we still have a lot to do before the 14-course dinner of 1919
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 1, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes, I quite agree; and moreover to continue the gustatory metaphor we don't need to order more, we still have a lot to do before the 14-course dinner of 1919 is fully digested.  As the waiter asks before clearing the table: still working on that?  I'll say we are.


                      From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aletheia Kallos
                      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 11:06 AM
                      To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] Oops

                       

                      yes yes & excellent gut level metaphor hahaha
                       
                      so what appears to emerge suddenly in 1648 & appears to make additional quantum leaps forward in years such as 1789 & 1815 & 1919
                      as a matter of human consciousness on the leading edge of thought
                      has really just been creeping or drifting rather steadily or unsteadily along all this time
                       
                      right up to the matter & the moment at hand
                       
                      when much of it appears to be crumbling before our eyes
                      so as to make way for something else perhaps
                      or else
                      is just directly reverting to that something else
                      by default
                       
                      & the apt metaphor may not yet be of generation or regeneration or of flows of nature etc but it is certainly already holocaustic catastrophic autumnal
                       
                      so
                      could spring be far behind
                       
                      kurdish spring
                       
                       
                      any spring

                      On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:23 PM, David Phillips <dfp18@...> wrote:
                       

                      If I were searching for a metaphor I would choose 1789 rather than 1648.  Until then, even after 1648, borders ebbed and flowed only as kings like Louis XIV were able to seize enclaves here and there, but things were still based on feudal relations and conquest.  After the French Revolution, and the subsequent wave of expansion France tried to enforce, at first at least on a revolutionary (that is a philosophical basis), is when the fundamental basis of European sovereignty changed, allowing of course for the precursors Netherlands, Switzerland and the United States.  Napoleon for example foreshadowed the unifications of Germany and Italy on a national basis, even if the reactionary peace conference undid them for a time.  If you want a Peace Conference to date the modern rigidity and later loosening from, I would suggest the Congress of Vienna rather than Westphalia for the constipation part, and the subsequent laxative of Versailles and the other treaties ending WWI, which redrew the map again at least partly on a philosophical rather than a solely military basis.  The feudal underpinnings of Westphalia (re-allocating fiefs among sovereigns without rethinking the basis for their boundaries), along with the ghost of the Empire, were all gone by 1815. 


                      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 10:05 AM
                      To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] Oops

                       

                      ok understood
                      & leaving aside my possibly inept metaphory
                      when i say westphalian i am not so focused on 1648 per se
                      as i am on all the boundarymaking that has taken place ever since 1648 upon the model of 1648
                      when what used to be loose frontiers by & large 
                      began fairly suddenly & on a large scale to become fixed boundaries by & large
                       
                      & it is this technical distinction more than the general historical drift at that time or at the present time that i am referring to
                       
                       
                      S! ent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 12:45 PM
                      Subject: [boundarypointpoint] Oops
                       
                      in like France and Sweden 1648
                          should of course read
                      like France and Sweden in 1648
                      From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Phillips
                      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:42 AM
                      To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                       
                      I think this is a misreading and perhaps idealizing of the Pre-Westphalian situation.  The Peace of Westphalia, in Germany anyway, was a rationalization of the chaos formed by centuries of division of lands, subinfeudation, and whatnot.  I don't think it is right to say that where now arguably frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature that that is is any sense a "regeneration" of the pre-Westphalian situation.  Now borders ebb and flow as people and nations try to implement what they see as their right to self-determination, a distinctly post-Westphalian concept.  There was little of that in the period before 1648, with a few exceptions like the Netherlands and Switzerland whose independence Westphalia recognized.  Even distinct nation-states in like France and Sweden 1648 saw their boundaries as a function of the dynastic, feudal and military reach of their sovereigns; the simplifications of Westphalia reorganized the territories of Central Europe, especially Germany, without changing the theoretical foundation of sovereignty.
                      From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of aletheia kallos
                      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 9:26 AM
                      To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                       
                      yes quite & we are probably seeking to identify too much of a quantum leap here in only a century but it seems to me that the early 20th century was borderifically hyperwestphalian at high water mark while the 21st is already seeing in many places a restoration or regeneration of the prewestphalian world order in which frontiers ebb & flow in a state of nature & states breathe a bit easier perhaps beyond or within both established & flexible boundary corsets
                       
                      & this revival seems a necessary first step on the journey to everyones land
                      even if the border paralysis of westphalian norms doesnt represent a halt in human evolution
                       
                      but the question of which system might ultimately be more pleasant & therefore better is i think trumped if not actually answered in exquisite detail by the electromagnetic force of every thought everyone offers
                       
                      for we are all in fact drawing attracting creating our own realities & therefore some of us more masterfully & pleasantly so than others in any case
                      while general progress measurable as increased general pleasantness just bumbles along rather than staggers lurches & marches on

                      From: David Phillips <dfp18@...>
                      To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2012 11:12 AM
                      Subject: RE: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                       
                      I have never quite understood why Turkey, in its fanatical opposition to a Kurdish state, does not see that establishing a Kurdish state on someone else's territory, like Iraq but Syria would be OK too, takes pressure off Turkey vis-a-vis their own Kurds.  By maintaining an iron determination not to allow Kurdistan in Turkey, but encouraging it in Iraq, Turkey could provide an alternative outlet for Kurdish national aspirations and a magnet for activists outside its border.  Why not go to Kurdistan rather than fight to the death inside Turkey, many will feel, and the hard core could be arrested as they are now, but released to Kurdistan if they would agree to go.  If there had been an independent Armenian state just outside Turkey's borders in 1915, say, a lot of unpleasantness could possibly have been avoided. 
                      From: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Aletheia Kallos
                      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2012 7:53 AM
                      To: boundarypointpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [boundarypointpoint] disunited nations trijunctions multiply & ramify
                       
                      fresh reports & analysis & some good reader comments too suggest ethnopolitical fragmentation of greater middle east is accelerating
                      but even the ethnic fragments are themselves fragmenting
                      while the yanks et al can only wave their arms from the sidelines
                       
                      could be the perfect storm & sword to finally cut the westphalian gordian knot
                       
                      hurray for everyone
                       
                       


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