- Here are a couple maps for y all - before and after from the French cadastral map series and a Spanish illustration of the change. The French maps clearlyMessage 1 of 6 , Jan 27, 2012View SourceHere are a couple maps for "y'all" - before and after from the French
cadastral map series and a Spanish illustration of the change. The
French maps clearly show how plots were renumbered, and how those around
the bridge down to the traffic circle were deleted in favor of Andorra.
It's interesting to note the "administrtative border" illustrated by the
colored line in the "after" map did not change much - leaving the small
part of Andorra around the bridge still within French administration.
Seems to coincide with what the the third party correspondence below (I
think the same as Dallen) referred to.
Thanks a lot, Marcel, for this nice piece of information.
Reading the treaty, there are some things I find really interesting:
In the 4th point of the 1st article, it is said that the “public
network” in the parts to be exchanged remain the property of the public
bodies that already have it in property. In an explanatory speech
rendered by the French minister for foreign affairs Védrine before the
French senate, it becomes clear that with “public network” some water
conduit pipes are meant. So apparently the water mains on the part of
the territory that will be handed over to France will stay the property
of the Andorran water authority (whatever authority that is), and vice
versa. In this part of art. 1, the right of access to the equipment for
maintenance is also assured to the respective authorities. By the way,
it appears, according to Jean-Yves Gateaud, reporting on the treaty in
the French house of representatives, that it basically only concerns
Andorran water mains and other equipment (sewers, drainage, electricity
and glass fibre cabling). For France, the preservation of the right of
way for cattle on the territory that becomes Andorran is the important
Now this is all very well, but I find it a bit contrasting with what it
says in article 3: That the proprietors of the portion that becomes
French will lose their property and are compensated by getting the
portion that becomes Andorran, and v.v. Luckily, there are only two
proprietors involved here, namely the French municipality of Porta and
the Andorran parish of Encamp (as explained by Hubert Védrine). It is
understandable, and it would be a lot weirder when private proprietors
were involved here. But still the municipality of Porta will have
Andorran-owned and maintained water mains on its territory, and the
parish of Encamp will have water mains of Porta on its land. I can
imagine that there are practical reasons for all of this, but it still
is a bit odd… Mr. Gateaud states that since the areas are private
property of public bodies, the exchange of property still needs to be
executed in front of notaries in France and Andorra, before the treaty
can come into force.
The part that becomes Andorran territory is needed for the connecting
road between the tunnel and the roundabout, apparently because it is
solely Andorra that builds and finances this road. The part that France
gets in exchange is advantageous to France, too, according to Gérard
Roujas, the expert from the Senate Commission for Foreign Affairs,
because France gets part of the left river bank of the Ariège river, in
this way enabling it to keep an eye on its course. The problem was that
the French accused Andorra of earthing up that bank, in this way
altering the course of the river, which was the boundary here (the
boundary not being delimited, but only defined as “the line of the
mountain ridge” or “the course of the river” by centuries-old custom).
And about Porta now getting 40000 euros: they were worried that, as a
result of the exchange, their municipality would be cut in two (still
according to Mr. Gateaud), and they would have to travel via Andorra to
get to the part of the municipality which some of us would call a
pene-enclave (not physically divided, but unable to be reached by
road). Now maybe these 40000 euros will go some way towards financing a
new link to that part of Porta.
Source: http://www.senat.fr/dossierleg/pjl00-260.html and the links on
--- marcelmiquel@n... wrote:
> I have posted before about the land exhange between Andorra andDallen Timothy wrote:
> France, near the tripoint, who was agreed in order to build the new
> Envalira tunnel. As you know, the french-andorran border is not fixed
> by a treaty, and there are many disputed zones. The municipality of
> Porta was not consulted about this exchange and they were worried
> because the new road divided several zones. Now, Andorra will pay
> 40.000 euros to Porta, and the conflict will be solved.
> Traslated from an andorran journal:
> “The resolution of the conlict between Andorra and the municipality
> Porta is not the end of the boundary andorran/french dispute. Enric
> Pujal ( minister of the Andorran government ) explained that as well
> the french electoral process will be finished, the special boundary
> comission will continue the meetings in order to solve the boundary
> conflict (…)
> At this moment, the two governments agree to divide the Abelletes
> and to partage the water resources. Very soon, they will discuss the
> border among the peaks form the lake to the tripoint.”
> So, perhaps very soon there will be a boundary treaty that will solve
> our headaches.
> The link to the newspaper ,with a photo : ( please, paste the lines )
> Finally, you can see the boundary exchange treaty in .pdf format It’s
> very curious because it’s the original treaty, with the signatures of
> the andorran prime minister and the french ambassador:
> ( sorry, but you have to paste the lines )
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> Thanks for the links to these old messages, Lowell. It appears Peter,
> Eef and Marcel discussed this land exchange in 2005. Did anyone ever
> find a map of the border area?
> *From:* email@example.com
> [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] *On Behalf Of *Lowell G. McManus
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2012 9:23 PM
> *To: email@example.com
> *Subject:* Re: [borderpoint] Andorra-France*
> * *
> * *
> *I remember seeing this reported, probably on BoundaryPoint (since
> BorderPoint didn't exist until 2005). If you will go to the
> BoundaryPoint message archive at
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/messages and search for
> "Envalira," you'll find several mentions.*
> * *
> *There are great photos of the bridge at
> http://v6.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?id=s0060863&nbs! p;.*
> * *
> *< /div>*
> *Lowell G. McManus
> Eagle Pass, Texas, USA*
> * *
> * *
> *----- Original Message ----- *
> **From:* Dallen Timothy <mailto:Dallen.Timothy@...> *
> **To:* firstname.lastname@example.org
> <mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups%21%0A%20.com> *
> **Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:45 PM*
> **Subject:* [borderpoint] Andorra-France*
> * *
> *Also, some of you are surely aware (I wasn’t) that Andorra and
> France exchanged some territory in 2001. We are waiting for treaty
> maps from the cadastral office in Paris to see what was exchange.
> It was only a couple of hectares, but it allowed Andorra to build
> the new bridge for ! the tunnel over the border river at Pas de la
> Casa, so that th! e entire bridge is now in Andorra, including
> both banks of the stream. We (five investigators) feel the border
> is now just southwest of the roundabout, on the edge of the
> roundabout. That assumption is based on roadwork, Andorra border
> poles, and some other sundry signs, but it’ll be interesting to
> see where it is exactly. According to the treaty, the river course
> was changed, or re-channeled, to give France the same amount of
> territory that Andorra received. Anyway, if anyone knows about
> this, it’d be great to hear from you. In the meantime, I have a
> geographer with connections to the cadastral offices in Paris
> working on this. The treaty (which we have) mentions the appendix
> map, but no map is included. That’s what we’re waiting for.*
- Hi Folks I m writing an article on border changes and tourism and will be using the 2001 Andorra-France border exchange at Pas de la Casa as an example. In theMessage 2 of 6 , May 31, 2012View Source
I’m writing an article on border changes and tourism and will be using the 2001 Andorra-France border exchange at Pas de la Casa as an example. In the process of doing this, I have produced the attached map to be published with the article. Incidentally, it’s not quite finished, as I’m fine-tuning it still. Nevertheless, it’s a start. Also please DO NOT upload it onto the internet. It is only for this group’s eyes at this point in time; it will be published soon. The map is based on four sources: 1) the semi-official treaty map that is floating around; 2) the descriptions of the border change in the treaty documents; 3) Google Earth; and 4) my own investigations there on the ground in January 2012.
A couple of points to make:
1) I’m almost 100% certain the roundabout is completely in France. The border is located where the new viaduct road connects to the west edge of the roundabout. See the attached pictures.
2) The news reports in France suggested that locals from the commune of Porta were unhappy about the exchange for several reasons. One was that they would have to go through Andorran territory (ie the roundabout) to reach the other part of their land around highway N22 and that the area south of the roundabout and the border would thus be a pene-exclave. I don’t believe this is the case.
Reasons for my conclusion:
1) Regarding the land exchange, French Bill #260 says: “The connection of the viaduct, mentioned in Article 1, paragraph 2, the RN 22 road by a roundabout located in French territory is funded by the Party of Andorra”. So, this document (and another one, which I can’t find right now) says that the roundabout is on French soil, but it was paid for by Andorra.
2) In the first photo, the red, white and orange pole are the colors of Andorra and likely mark the border. They parallel the change of pavement on the left. The green, red and white poles are snow poles. The road signs just beyond the roundabout are Andorran signs with red all the way to the edge. The signs on the roundabout are French road signs with a white trim between the red and the edge of the sign. The three signs near the line are in Catalan because they are in Andorra.
3) Second photo, another view of the roundabout, looking from Andorra into France. Note the Andorra pole to the right of the road as well, and the French yield sign right about on the borderline.
4) Third photo, another shot of the same area. This French sign seems to be in Andorra about a meter or so. All the other signs on the roundabout are French; there is a different pavement; and the signs are all in French only. On the Andorran part, the signs are in Catalan up to the roundabout.