Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Andorra-France

Expand Messages
  • Dallen Timothy
    Also, some of you are surely aware (I wasn t) that Andorra and France exchanged some territory in 2001. We are waiting for treaty maps from the cadastral
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 26, 2012

      Also, some of you are surely aware (I wasn’t) that Andorra and France exchanged some territory in 2001. We are waiting for treaty maps from the cadastral office in Paris to see what was exchange. It was only a couple of hectares, but it allowed Andorra to build the new bridge for the tunnel over the border river at Pas de la Casa, so that the entire bridge is now in Andorra, including both banks of the stream. We (five investigators) feel the border is now just southwest of the roundabout, on the edge of the roundabout. That assumption is based on roadwork, Andorra border poles, and some other sundry signs, but it’ll be interesting to see where it is exactly. According to the treaty, the river course was changed, or re-channeled, to give France the same amount of territory that Andorra received. Anyway, if anyone knows about this, it’d be great to hear from you. In the meantime, I have a geographer with connections to the cadastral offices in Paris working on this. The treaty (which we have) mentions the appendix map, but no map is included. That’s what we’re waiting for.


      Dallen

       

       

    • Lowell G. McManus
      I remember seeing this reported, probably on BoundaryPoint (since BorderPoint didn t exist until 2005). If you will go to the BoundaryPoint message archive at
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 26, 2012
        I remember seeing this reported, probably on BoundaryPoint (since BorderPoint didn't exist until 2005).  If you will go to the BoundaryPoint message archive at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/messages and search for "Envalira," you'll find several mentions.
         
        There are great photos of the bridge at http://v6.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?id=s0060863 .
         
        Lowell G. McManus
        Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:45 PM
        Subject: [borderpoint] Andorra-France

        Also, some of you are surely aware (I wasn’t) that Andorra and France exchanged some territory in 2001. We are waiting for treaty maps from the cadastral office in Paris to see what was exchange. It was only a couple of hectares, but it allowed Andorra to build the new bridge for the tunnel over the border river at Pas de la Casa, so that the entire bridge is now in Andorra, including both banks of the stream. We (five investigators) feel the border is now just southwest of the roundabout, on the edge of the roundabout. That assumption is based on roadwork, Andorra border poles, and some other sundry signs, but it’ll be interesting to see where it is exactly. According to the treaty, the river course was changed, or re-channeled, to give France the same amount of territory that Andorra received. Anyway, if anyone knows about this, it’d be great to hear from you. In the meantime, I have a geographer with connections to the cadastral offices in Paris working on this. The treaty (which we have) mentions the appendix map, but no map is included. That’s what we’re waiting for.


        Dallen

      • Dallen Timothy
        Thanks for the links to these old messages, Lowell. It appears Peter, Eef and Marcel discussed this land exchange in 2005. Did anyone ever find a map of the
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 26, 2012

          Thanks for the links to these old messages, Lowell. It appears Peter, Eef and Marcel discussed this land exchange in 2005. Did anyone ever find a map of the border area?

          Dallen

           

          From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
          Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 9:23 PM
          To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Andorra-France

           

           

          I remember seeing this reported, probably on BoundaryPoint (since BorderPoint didn't exist until 2005).  If you will go to the BoundaryPoint message archive at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/messages and search for "Envalira," you'll find several mentions.

           

          There are great photos of the bridge at http://v6.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?id=s0060863 .

           

          Lowell G. McManus
          Eagle Pass, Texas, USA

           

           

          ----- Original Message -----

          Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:45 PM

          Subject: [borderpoint] Andorra-France

           

          Also, some of you are surely aware (I wasn’t) that Andorra and France exchanged some territory in 2001. We are waiting for treaty maps from the cadastral office in Paris to see what was exchange. It was only a couple of hectares, but it allowed Andorra to build the new bridge for the tunnel over the border river at Pas de la Casa, so that the entire bridge is now in Andorra, including both banks of the stream. We (five investigators) feel the border is now just southwest of the roundabout, on the edge of the roundabout. That assumption is based on roadwork, Andorra border poles, and some other sundry signs, but it’ll be interesting to see where it is exactly. According to the treaty, the river course was changed, or re-channeled, to give France the same amount of territory that Andorra received. Anyway, if anyone knows about this, it’d be great to hear from you. In the meantime, I have a geographer with connections to the cadastral offices in Paris working on this. The treaty (which we have) mentions the appendix map, but no map is included. That’s what we’re waiting for.


          Dallen

        • Peter Smaardijk
          Hi Dallen, Yes, I did. I ll dig it out for you (I think I still have it somewhere). This was not a very officially-looking map, but nevertheless quite clear.
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 26, 2012
            Hi Dallen,

            Yes, I did. I'll dig it out for you (I think I still have it somewhere).

            This was not a very officially-looking map, but nevertheless quite clear.

            Peter

            --- On Fri, 1/27/12, Dallen Timothy <Dallen.Timothy@...> wrote:

            From: Dallen Timothy <Dallen.Timothy@...>
            Subject: RE: [borderpoint] Andorra-France
            To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Friday, January 27, 2012, 6:27 AM

             

            Thanks for the links to these old messages, Lowell. It appears Peter, Eef and Marcel discussed this land exchange in 2005. Did anyone ever find a map of the border area?

            Dallen

             

            From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lowell G. McManus
            Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 9:23 PM
            To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Andorra-France

             

             

            I remember seeing this reported, probably on BoundaryPoint (since BorderPoint didn't exist until 2005).  If you will go to the BoundaryPoint message archive at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/messages and search for "Envalira," you'll find several mentions.

             

            There are great photos of the bridge at http://v6.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?id=s0060863 .

             

            Lowell G. McManus
            Eagle Pass, Texas, USA

             

             

            ----- Original Message -----

            Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:45 PM

            Subject: [borderpoint] Andorra-France

             

            Also, some of you are surely aware (I wasn’t) that Andorra and France exchanged some territory in 2001. We are waiting for treaty maps from the cadastral office in Paris to see what was exchange. It was only a couple of hectares, but it allowed Andorra to build the new bridge for the tunnel over the border river at Pas de la Casa, so that the entire bridge is now in Andorra, including both banks of the stream. We (five investigators) feel the border is now just southwest of the roundabout, on the edge of the roundabout. That assumption is based on roadwork, Andorra border poles, and some other sundry signs, but it’ll be interesting to see where it is exactly. According to the treaty, the river course was changed, or re-channeled, to give France the same amount of territory that Andorra received. Anyway, if anyone knows about this, it’d be great to hear from you. In the meantime, I have a geographer with connections to the cadastral offices in Paris working on this. The treaty (which we have) mentions the appendix map, but no map is included. That’s what we’re waiting for.


            Dallen

          • Len Nadybal
            Here are a couple maps for y all - before and after from the French cadastral map series and a Spanish illustration of the change. The French maps clearly
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 27, 2012
            Here are a couple maps for "y'all" - before and after from the French
            cadastral map series and a Spanish illustration of the change. The
            French maps clearly show how plots were renumbered, and how those around
            the bridge down to the traffic circle were deleted in favor of Andorra.
            It's interesting to note the "administrtative border" illustrated by the
            colored line in the "after" map did not change much - leaving the small
            part of Andorra around the bridge still within French administration.
            Seems to coincide with what the the third party correspondence below (I
            think the same as Dallen) referred to.

            Len


            Thanks a lot, Marcel, for this nice piece of information.

            Reading the treaty, there are some things I find really interesting:

            In the 4th point of the 1st article, it is said that the “public

            network” in the parts to be exchanged remain the property of the public

            bodies that already have it in property. In an explanatory speech

            rendered by the French minister for foreign affairs Védrine before the

            French senate, it becomes clear that with “public network” some water

            conduit pipes are meant. So apparently the water mains on the part of

            the territory that will be handed over to France will stay the property

            of the Andorran water authority (whatever authority that is), and vice

            versa. In this part of art. 1, the right of access to the equipment for

            maintenance is also assured to the respective authorities. By the way,

            it appears, according to Jean-Yves Gateaud, reporting on the treaty in

            the French house of representatives, that it basically only concerns

            Andorran water mains and other equipment (sewers, drainage, electricity

            and glass fibre cabling). For France, the preservation of the right of

            way for cattle on the territory that becomes Andorran is the important

            issue.

            Now this is all very well, but I find it a bit contrasting with what it

            says in article 3: That the proprietors of the portion that becomes

            French will lose their property and are compensated by getting the

            portion that becomes Andorran, and v.v. Luckily, there are only two

            proprietors involved here, namely the French municipality of Porta and

            the Andorran parish of Encamp (as explained by Hubert Védrine). It is

            understandable, and it would be a lot weirder when private proprietors

            were involved here. But still the municipality of Porta will have

            Andorran-owned and maintained water mains on its territory, and the

            parish of Encamp will have water mains of Porta on its land. I can

            imagine that there are practical reasons for all of this, but it still

            is a bit odd… Mr. Gateaud states that since the areas are private

            property of public bodies, the exchange of property still needs to be

            executed in front of notaries in France and Andorra, before the treaty

            can come into force.

            The part that becomes Andorran territory is needed for the connecting

            road between the tunnel and the roundabout, apparently because it is

            solely Andorra that builds and finances this road. The part that France

            gets in exchange is advantageous to France, too, according to Gérard

            Roujas, the expert from the Senate Commission for Foreign Affairs,

            because France gets part of the left river bank of the Ariège river, in

            this way enabling it to keep an eye on its course. The problem was that

            the French accused Andorra of earthing up that bank, in this way

            altering the course of the river, which was the boundary here (the

            boundary not being delimited, but only defined as “the line of the

            mountain ridge” or “the course of the river” by centuries-old custom).

            And about Porta now getting 40000 euros: they were worried that, as a

            result of the exchange, their municipality would be cut in two (still

            according to Mr. Gateaud), and they would have to travel via Andorra to

            get to the part of the municipality which some of us would call a

            pene-enclave (not physically divided, but unable to be reached by

            road). Now maybe these 40000 euros will go some way towards financing a

            new link to that part of Porta.

            Source: http://www.senat.fr/dossierleg/pjl00-260.html and the links on

            this page.

            Peter S.

            --- marcelmiquel@n... wrote:

            > I have posted before about the land exhange between Andorra and

            > France, near the tripoint, who was agreed in order to build the new

            > Envalira tunnel. As you know, the french-andorran border is not fixed

            >

            > by a treaty, and there are many disputed zones. The municipality of

            > Porta was not consulted about this exchange and they were worried

            > because the new road divided several zones. Now, Andorra will pay

            > 40.000 euros to Porta, and the conflict will be solved.

            >

            > Traslated from an andorran journal:

            >

            > “The resolution of the conlict between Andorra and the municipality

            > of

            > Porta is not the end of the boundary andorran/french dispute. Enric

            > Pujal ( minister of the Andorran government ) explained that as well

            >

            > the french electoral process will be finished, the special boundary

            > comission will continue the meetings in order to solve the boundary

            > conflict (…)

            >

            > At this moment, the two governments agree to divide the Abelletes

            > lake

            > and to partage the water resources. Very soon, they will discuss the

            > border among the peaks form the lake to the tripoint.”

            >

            > So, perhaps very soon there will be a boundary treaty that will solve

            >

            > our headaches.

            >

            >

            > The link to the newspaper ,with a photo : ( please, paste the lines )

            >

            > http://www.elperiodico.com/EDICION/ED020510/

            > CAS/CARP04/PDF/pag006.pdf

            >

            > Finally, you can see the boundary exchange treaty in .pdf format It’s

            >

            > very curious because it’s the original treaty, with the signatures of

            >

            > the andorran prime minister and the french ambassador:

            >

            > http://www.doc.diplomatie.gouv.fr/BASISCGI/BASIS/

            > pacte/webext/bilat/DDD/20000089.pdf

            >

            > ( sorry, but you have to paste the lines )

            >

            > Marcel

            >

            >

            >

            > __________________________________________________________________

            > ¿Quieres que cada vez que te llamen al móvil suene "TORERO"?. Si

            > tienes un teléfono Nokia sólo tienes que enviar un SMS con el texto

            > MTV102245 al número 5666. Si tienes un móvil diferente o quieres

            > bajarte otras melodías de la MTV visita

            > http://www.vizzavi.es/Melodias

            > Coste del mensaje 0,9 € impuestos indirectos no incluidos.

            >

            >




            Dallen Timothy wrote:
            >
            >
            > Thanks for the links to these old messages, Lowell. It appears Peter,
            > Eef and Marcel discussed this land exchange in 2005. Did anyone ever
            > find a map of the border area?
            >
            > Dallen
            >
            > *From:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Lowell G. McManus
            > *Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2012 9:23 PM
            > *To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            > *Subject:* Re: [borderpoint] Andorra-France*
            >
            > * *
            >
            > * *
            >
            > *I remember seeing this reported, probably on BoundaryPoint (since
            > BorderPoint didn't exist until 2005). If you will go to the
            > BoundaryPoint message archive at
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BoundaryPoint/messages and search for
            > "Envalira," you'll find several mentions.*
            >
            > * *
            >
            > *There are great photos of the bridge at
            > http://v6.structurae.de/structures/data/index.cfm?id=s0060863&nbs! p;.*
            >
            > * *
            >
            > *< /div>*
            >
            > *Lowell G. McManus
            > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA*
            >
            > * *
            >
            > * *
            >
            > *----- Original Message ----- *
            >
            > **From:* Dallen Timothy <mailto:Dallen.Timothy@...> *
            >
            > **To:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups%21%0A%20.com> *
            >
            > **Sent:* Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:45 PM*
            >
            > **Subject:* [borderpoint] Andorra-France*
            >
            > * *
            >
            > *Also, some of you are surely aware (I wasn’t) that Andorra and
            > France exchanged some territory in 2001. We are waiting for treaty
            > maps from the cadastral office in Paris to see what was exchange.
            > It was only a couple of hectares, but it allowed Andorra to build
            > the new bridge for ! the tunnel over the border river at Pas de la
            > Casa, so that th! e entire bridge is now in Andorra, including
            > both banks of the stream. We (five investigators) feel the border
            > is now just southwest of the roundabout, on the edge of the
            > roundabout. That assumption is based on roadwork, Andorra border
            > poles, and some other sundry signs, but it’ll be interesting to
            > see where it is exactly. According to the treaty, the river course
            > was changed, or re-channeled, to give France the same amount of
            > territory that Andorra received. Anyway, if anyone knows about
            > this, it’d be great to hear from you. In the meantime, I have a
            > geographer with connections to the cadastral offices in Paris
            > working on this. The treaty (which we have) mentions the appendix
            > map, but no map is included. That’s what we’re waiting for.*
            >
            > *
            > Dallen*
            >
            > *
            >
            > *
            > **
          • Dallen Timothy
            Hi Folks I m writing an article on border changes and tourism and will be using the 2001 Andorra-France border exchange at Pas de la Casa as an example. In the
            Message 6 of 6 , May 31, 2012

            Hi Folks

             

            I’m writing an article on border changes and tourism and will be using the 2001 Andorra-France border exchange at Pas de la Casa as an example. In the process of doing this, I have produced the attached map to be published with the article. Incidentally, it’s not quite finished, as I’m fine-tuning it still. Nevertheless, it’s a start. Also please DO NOT upload it onto the internet. It is only for this group’s eyes at this point in time; it will be published soon. The map is based on four sources: 1) the semi-official treaty map that is floating around; 2) the descriptions of the border change in the treaty documents; 3) Google Earth; and 4) my own investigations there on the ground in January 2012.

             

            A couple of points to make:

             

            1)      I’m almost 100% certain the roundabout is completely in France. The border is located where the new viaduct road connects to the west edge of the roundabout. See the attached pictures.

            2)      The news reports in France suggested that locals from the commune of Porta were unhappy about the exchange for several reasons. One was that they would have to go through Andorran territory (ie the roundabout) to reach the other part of their land around highway N22 and that the area south of the roundabout and the border would thus be a pene-exclave. I don’t believe this is the case.

             

             

            Reasons for my conclusion:

             

            1)      Regarding the land exchange, French Bill #260 says: “The connection of the viaduct, mentioned in Article 1, paragraph 2, the RN 22 road by a roundabout located in French territory is funded by the Party of Andorra”. So, this document (and another one, which I can’t find right now) says that the roundabout is on French soil, but it was paid for by Andorra.

            2)      In the first photo, the red, white and orange pole are the colors of Andorra and likely mark the border. They parallel the change of pavement on the left. The green, red and white poles are snow poles. The road signs just beyond the roundabout are Andorran signs with red all the way to the edge. The signs on the roundabout are French road signs with a white trim between the red and the edge of the sign. The three signs near the line are in Catalan because they are in Andorra.

            3)      Second photo, another view of the roundabout, looking from Andorra into France. Note the Andorra pole to the right of the road as well, and the French yield sign right about on the borderline.

            4)      Third photo, another shot of the same area. This French sign seems to be in Andorra about a meter or so. All the other signs on the roundabout are French; there is a different pavement; and the signs are all in French only. On the Andorran part, the signs are in Catalan up to the roundabout.

             

            Dallen

             

             

             

             

          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.