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Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?

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  • Robert Eidschun
    I was in the Kaliningrad Oblast on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 right near the border with Lithuania, and the Russian border patrolman there explained that there
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 22, 2011
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      I was in the Kaliningrad Oblast on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 right near the border with Lithuania, and the Russian border patrolman there explained that there are three fences between the Oblast and Lithuania: one right along the Lepona River, which demarcates the exact border; another a few hundred meters west in the Oblast; and another a few hundred meters east in Lithuania. Between the fence on the Russian side and the fence on the Lithuanian side is a "no man's land" (with the Lepona River and its fence in-between) that no one can visit without a special permit from either the Russian authorities or the Lithuanian authorities, depending on from which side you want to enter the "no man's land". In Russia, such a permit is in addition to the special permit required simply to be within a few kilometers (in Russia) of the "no man's land". The area within a few kilometers of the "no man's land" is the "border zone", as it's called in Russia; and the "no man's land" is sometimes called the "border strip".

      But according to the some of the postings here, it seems that some folks are managing to get right up to the Lepona river without permits or without having to pass through fences, which doesn't make any sense to me.

      Does anyone have any other knowledge of the "no man's land" between Lithuania and the Kaliningrad Oblast, and how things work there? I want to visit some cemeteries that lie just west of the Lepona River and therefore in the Oblast, but the Russian border patrolman with whom I met told me that those cemeteries lie within the "no man's land" and that therefore, I need a special permit, which he said would take at least a couple of days to get.

      Thanks.

      Robert
    • Jan S. Krogh
      Robert, Many East European countries has this kind of borderzones. It is partly a result of the schizophrenic traditions which begun after WWII – and more
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 22, 2011
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        Robert,
         
        Many East European countries has this kind of borderzones. It is partly a result of the schizophrenic traditions which begun after WWII – and more important, the Communistic system of stopping its own citizens to escape from the country. Many countries as Finland, Latvia and Lithuania still perform the Russian type borderzone which limits its citizen to get near the border.  According to Soviet traditions some of these countries regard the exact borderline as a "strategic object" and its whereabouts are therefore secret. It is usually not allowed to photograph borderpoles and other objects in the vista.  This is clearly anacronisms, but it helps the work with preventing various types of smuggling (alcohol, drugs, human beings).
         
        In Kaliningrad one has to apply for a permit to enter the borderzones.  Contract a person or organization in the borderzone - or any travel agency in Kalingrad - and they might help you. This should be done at least one month previous to the visit. 
        Most likely this practice will cease with time.  I have been in the borderzones and the Russian borderguards allowed us in even if we did not have the permit, but I do not reccomend this way if you have possibility to apply according to the regulations.
         
        Jan
         
        -----Original Message-----
        From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Robert Eidschun
        Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:32 AM
        To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [borderpoint] Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?

         

        I was in the Kaliningrad Oblast on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 right near the border with Lithuania, and the Russian border patrolman there explained that there are three fences between the Oblast and Lithuania: one right along the Lepona River, which demarcates the exact border; another a few hundred meters west in the Oblast; and another a few hundred meters east in Lithuania. Between the fence on the Russian side and the fence on the Lithuanian side is a "no man's land" (with the Lepona River and its fence in-between) that no one can visit without a special permit from either the Russian authorities or the Lithuanian authorities, depending on from which side you want to enter the "no man's land". In Russia, such a permit is in addition to the special permit required simply to be within a few kilometers (in Russia) of the "no man's land". The area within a few kilometers of the "no man's land" is the "border zone", as it's called in Russia; and the "no man's land" is sometimes called the "border strip".

        But according to the some of the postings here, it seems that some folks are managing to get right up to the Lepona river without permits or without having to pass through fences, which doesn't make any sense to me.

        Does anyone have any other knowledge of the "no man's land" between Lithuania and the Kaliningrad Oblast, and how things work there? I want to visit some cemeteries that lie just west of the Lepona River and therefore in the Oblast, but the Russian border patrolman with whom I met told me that those cemeteries lie within the "no man's land" and that therefore, I need a special permit, which he said would take at least a couple of days to get.

        Thanks.

        Robert

      • Doug Murray
        Jan: Has anyone written extensively online (or a book) about the old Soviet sistema? I was trying to follow it from the Baltic Sea all the way to the Sea of
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 23, 2011
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          Jan:

          Has anyone written extensively online (or a book) about the old Soviet sistema?  I was trying to follow it from the Baltic Sea all the way to the Sea of Japan.  There are some photos on Google Earth/Panarimo -- but I'm looking for more detail.

          Also: My condolences in light of Friday's tragic events in Norway.  Terrible.

          Regards,

          Doug


          On 11-07-23 3:36 AM, Jan S. Krogh wrote:
           

          Robert,
           
          Many East European countries has this kind of borderzones. It is partly a result of the schizophrenic traditions which begun after WWII – and more important, the Communistic system of stopping its own citizens to escape from the country. Many countries as Finland, Latvia and Lithuania still perform the Russian type borderzone which limits its citizen to get near the border.  According to Soviet traditions some of these countries regard the exact borderline as a "strategic object" and its whereabouts are therefore secret. It is usually not allowed to photograph borderpoles and other objects in the vista.  This is clearly anacronisms, but it helps the work with preventing various types of smuggling (alcohol, drugs, human beings).
           
          In Kaliningrad one has to apply for a permit to enter the borderzones.  Contract a person or organization in the borderzone - or any travel agency in Kalingrad - and they might help you. This should be done at least one month previous to the visit. 
          Most likely this practice will cease with time.  I have been in the borderzones and the Russian borderguards allowed us in even if we did not have the permit, but I do not reccomend this way if you have possibility to apply according to the regulations.
           
          Jan
           
          -----Original Message-----
          From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Robert Eidschun
          Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:32 AM
          To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [borderpoint] Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?

           

          I was in the Kaliningrad Oblast on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 right near the border with Lithuania, and the Russian border patrolman there explained that there are three fences between the Oblast and Lithuania: one right along the Lepona River, which demarcates the exact border; another a few hundred meters west in the Oblast; and another a few hundred meters east in Lithuania. Between the fence on the Russian side and the fence on the Lithuanian side is a "no man's land" (with the Lepona River and its fence in-between) that no one can visit without a special permit from either the Russian authorities or the Lithuanian authorities, depending on from which side you want to enter the "no man's land". In Russia, such a permit is in addition to the special permit required simply to be within a few kilometers (in Russia) of the "no man's land". The area within a few kilometers of the "no man's land" is the "border zone", as it's called in Russia; and the "no man's land" is sometimes called the "border strip".

          But according to the some of the postings here, it seems that some folks are managing to get right up to the Lepona river without permits or without having to pass through fences, which doesn't make any sense to me.

          Does anyone have any other knowledge of the "no man's land" between Lithuania and the Kaliningrad Oblast, and how things work there? I want to visit some cemeteries that lie just west of the Lepona River and therefore in the Oblast, but the Russian border patrolman with whom I met told me that those cemeteries lie within the "no man's land" and that therefore, I need a special permit, which he said would take at least a couple of days to get.

          Thanks.

          Robert


          --

          Doug Murray
          sounds+images+words

          WEB - Borderfilms.com
          TWITTER - @borderfilms
          East Coast: +1.902.982.1812
          West Coast: +1.604.210.1776

          Contributor to: Toronto Star, South China Morning Post, Philadelphia Inquirer,
          Chicago Tribune, Baltic Times, Malaysia Star, Irish Examiner, (Vancouver) Georgia Straight,
          National Geographic, CBC Radio, San Jose Mercury News, CTV News, CBC News, Oakland Tribune,
          Contra Costa Times, Western Mail (Wales), NewsRadio Ireland, Word Magazine, National Post, Lonely Planet,
          Yukon News, Gibraltar Panorama, Helsinki Times, T-Mobile USA, Gadling, etc

          Books (Photography): Weird Washington, Media Discourse and the Yugoslav Conflicts
          Author: Tropical Depression - Doomsday in Paradise (due 2012)

          More about.me!
        • reidschun
          Hi Jan, Thanks for your posting. However, you write borderzones but seem to be referring to border strips , although I m not sure. Which are you referring
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 23, 2011
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            Hi Jan,

            Thanks for your posting. However, you write "borderzones" but seem to be referring to "border strips", although I'm not sure. Which are you referring to? I distinguish between the two in my original posting.

            Thanks.

            Robert

            --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jan S. Krogh" <jan@...> wrote:
            >
            > Robert,
            >
            > Many East European countries has this kind of borderzones. It is partly a result of the schizophrenic traditions which begun after WWII – and more important, the Communistic system of stopping its own citizens to escape from the country. Many countries as Finland, Latvia and Lithuania still perform the Russian type borderzone which limits its citizen to get near the border. According to Soviet traditions some of these countries regard the exact borderline as a "strategic object" and its whereabouts are therefore secret. It is usually not allowed to photograph borderpoles and other objects in the vista. This is clearly anacronisms, but it helps the work with preventing various types of smuggling (alcohol, drugs, human beings).
            >
            > In Kaliningrad one has to apply for a permit to enter the borderzones. Contract a person or organization in the borderzone - or any travel agency in Kalingrad - and they might help you. This should be done at least one month previous to the visit.
            > Most likely this practice will cease with time. I have been in the borderzones and the Russian borderguards allowed us in even if we did not have the permit, but I do not reccomend this way if you have possibility to apply according to the regulations.
            >
            > Jan
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Robert Eidschun
            > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:32 AM
            > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [borderpoint] Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?
            >
            >
            >
            > I was in the Kaliningrad Oblast on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 right near the border with Lithuania, and the Russian border patrolman there explained that there are three fences between the Oblast and Lithuania: one right along the Lepona River, which demarcates the exact border; another a few hundred meters west in the Oblast; and another a few hundred meters east in Lithuania. Between the fence on the Russian side and the fence on the Lithuanian side is a "no man's land" (with the Lepona River and its fence in-between) that no one can visit without a special permit from either the Russian authorities or the Lithuanian authorities, depending on from which side you want to enter the "no man's land". In Russia, such a permit is in addition to the special permit required simply to be within a few kilometers (in Russia) of the "no man's land". The area within a few kilometers of the "no man's land" is the "border zone", as it's called in Russia; and the "no man's land" is sometimes called the "border strip".
            >
            > But according to the some of the postings here, it seems that some folks are managing to get right up to the Lepona river without permits or without having to pass through fences, which doesn't make any sense to me.
            >
            > Does anyone have any other knowledge of the "no man's land" between Lithuania and the Kaliningrad Oblast, and how things work there? I want to visit some cemeteries that lie just west of the Lepona River and therefore in the Oblast, but the Russian border patrolman with whom I met told me that those cemeteries lie within the "no man's land" and that therefore, I need a special permit, which he said would take at least a couple of days to get.
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > Robert
            >
          • Jan S. Krogh
            Robert, With borderzone I refer to a usually 200-5000 m wide restricted territory, and not the borderstrip or boundary vista. The Russian borderzone is about
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 23, 2011
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              Robert,
               
              With "borderzone" I refer to a usually 200-5000 m wide restricted territory, and not the borderstrip or boundary vista. The Russian borderzone is about 2000 m. Lithuania has two borderzones; within about 5000 m from the boundary anybody needs to carry ID and within 200 m special permission.
              The Soviet Sistema borderfence was/is located about 500 m from the national border. I am not familiar with any borderfence at the LTRU border, on neither side.
               
              Jan
               
              -----Original Message-----
              From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of reidschun
              Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 7:45 PM
              To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [borderpoint] Re: Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?

               



              Hi Jan,

              Thanks for your posting. However, you write "borderzones" but seem to be referring to "border strips", although I'm not sure. Which are you referring to? I distinguish between the two in my original posting.

              Thanks.

              Robert

              --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, "Jan S. Krogh" <jan@...> wrote:
              >
              > Robert,
              >
              > Many East European countries has this kind of borderzones. It is partly a result of the schizophrenic traditions which begun after WWII – and more important, the Communistic system of stopping its own citizens to escape from the country. Many countries as Finland, Latvia and Lithuania still perform the Russian type borderzone which limits its citizen to get near the border. According to Soviet traditions some of these countries regard the exact borderline as a "strategic object" and its whereabouts are therefore secret. It is usually not allowed to photograph borderpoles and other objects in the vista. This is clearly anacronisms, but it helps the work with preventing various types of smuggling (alcohol, drugs, human beings).
              >
              > In Kaliningrad one has to apply for a permit to enter the borderzones. Contract a person or organization in the borderzone - or any travel agency in Kalingrad - and they might help you. This should be done at least one month previous to the visit.
              > Most likely this practice will cease with time. I have been in the borderzones and the Russian borderguards allowed us in even if we did not have the permit, but I do not reccomend this way if you have possibility to apply according to the regulations.
              >
              > Jan
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Robert Eidschun
              > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:32 AM
              > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [borderpoint] Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?
              >
              >
              >
              > I was in the Kaliningrad Oblast on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 right near the border with Lithuania, and the Russian border patrolman there explained that there are three fences between the Oblast and Lithuania: one right along the Lepona River, which demarcates the exact border; another a few hundred meters west in the Oblast; and another a few hundred meters east in Lithuania. Between the fence on the Russian side and the fence on the Lithuanian side is a "no man's land" (with the Lepona River and its fence in-between) that no one can visit without a special permit from either the Russian authorities or the Lithuanian authorities, depending on from which side you want to enter the "no man's land". In Russia, such a permit is in addition to the special permit required simply to be within a few kilometers (in Russia) of the "no man's land". The area within a few kilometers of the "no man's land" is the "border zone", as it's called in Russia; and the "no man's land" is sometimes called the "border strip".
              >
              > But according to the some of the postings here, it seems that some folks are managing to get right up to the Lepona river without permits or without having to pass through fences, which doesn't make any sense to me.
              >
              > Does anyone have any other knowledge of the "no man's land" between Lithuania and the Kaliningrad Oblast, and how things work there? I want to visit some cemeteries that lie just west of the Lepona River and therefore in the Oblast, but the Russian border patrolman with whom I met told me that those cemeteries lie within the "no man's land" and that therefore, I need a special permit, which he said would take at least a couple of days to get.
              >
              > Thanks.
              >
              > Robert
              >

            • Jan S. Krogh
              Doug, I cannot recall any book, but I have read some articles about it. Although at the moment I cannot find any online links. Thank you so much for your
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 23, 2011
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                Doug,
                 
                I cannot recall any book, but I have read some articles about it. Although at the moment I cannot find any online links.
                 
                Thank you so much for your thoughts.  It seems this maniac was a lonley right-wing wolf who managed to reintroduce the entire passport control on the Norwegian border for the first time after Norway joined the Schengen Treaty.
                 
                Jan
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Doug Murray
                Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 2:08 PM
                To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?

                 


                Jan:

                Has anyone written extensively online (or a book) about the old Soviet sistema?  I was trying to follow it from the Baltic Sea all the way to the Sea of Japan.  There are some photos on Google Earth/Panarimo -- but I'm looking for more detail.

                Also: My condolences in light of Friday's tragic events in Norway.  Terrible.

                Regards,

                Doug


                On 11-07-23 3:36 AM, Jan S. Krogh wrote:

                 

                Robert,
                 
                Many East European countries has this kind of borderzones. It is partly a result of the schizophrenic traditions which begun after WWII – and more important, the Communistic system of stopping its own citizens to escape from the country. Many countries as Finland, Latvia and Lithuania still perform the Russian type borderzone which limits its citizen to get near the border.  According to Soviet traditions some of these countries regard the exact borderline as a "strategic object" and its whereabouts are therefore secret. It is usually not allowed to photograph borderpoles and other objects in the vista.  This is clearly anacronisms, but it helps the work with preventing various types of smuggling (alcohol, drugs, human beings).
                 
                In Kaliningrad one has to apply for a permit to enter the borderzones.  Contract a person or organization in the borderzone - or any travel agency in Kalingrad - and they might help you. This should be done at least one month previous to the visit. 
                Most likely this practice will cease with time.  I have been in the borderzones and the Russian borderguards allowed us in even if we did not have the permit, but I do not reccomend this way if you have possibility to apply according to the regulations.
                 
                Jan
                 
                -----Original Message-----
                From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Robert Eidschun
                Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:32 AM
                To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [borderpoint] Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?

                 

                I was in the Kaliningrad Oblast on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 right near the border with Lithuania, and the Russian border patrolman there explained that there are three fences between the Oblast and Lithuania: one right along the Lepona River, which demarcates the exact border; another a few hundred meters west in the Oblast; and another a few hundred meters east in Lithuania. Between the fence on the Russian side and the fence on the Lithuanian side is a "no man's land" (with the Lepona River and its fence in-between) that no one can visit without a special permit from either the Russian authorities or the Lithuanian authorities, depending on from which side you want to enter the "no man's land". In Russia, such a permit is in addition to the special permit required simply to be within a few kilometers (in Russia) of the "no man's land". The area within a few kilometers of the "no man's land" is the "border zone", as it's called in Russia; and the "no man's land" is sometimes called the "border strip".

                But according to the some of the postings here, it seems that some folks are managing to get right up to the Lepona river without permits or without having to pass through fences, which doesn't make any sense to me.

                Does anyone have any other knowledge of the "no man's land" between Lithuania and the Kaliningrad Oblast, and how things work there? I want to visit some cemeteries that lie just west of the Lepona River and therefore in the Oblast, but the Russian border patrolman with whom I met told me that those cemeteries lie within the "no man's land" and that therefore, I need a special permit, which he said would take at least a couple of days to get.

                Thanks.

                Robert


                --

                Doug Murray
                sounds+images+words

                WEB - Borderfilms.com
                TWITTER - @borderfilms
                East Coast: +1.902.982.1812
                West Coast: +1.604.210.1776

                Contributor to: Toronto Star, South China Morning Post, Philadelphia Inquirer,
                Chicago Tribune, Baltic Times, Malaysia Star, Irish Examiner, (Vancouver) Georgia Straight,
                National Geographic, CBC Radio, San Jose Mercury News, CTV News, CBC News, Oakland Tribune,
                Contra Costa Times, Western Mail (Wales), NewsRadio Ireland, Word Magazine, National Post, Lonely Planet,
                Yukon News, Gibraltar Panorama, Helsinki Times, T-Mobile USA, Gadling, etc

                Books (Photography): Weird Washington, Media Discourse and the Yugoslav Conflicts
                Author: Tropical Depression - Doomsday in Paradise (due 2012)

                More about.me!

              • Robert Eidschun
                Hi Jan, Thanks for your reply. I ve made some comments below, in-line. Perhaps you could clear up a few more points for me? Thanks. Robert ... In 2000, I
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 23, 2011
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                  Hi Jan,

                  Thanks for your reply.

                  I've made some comments below, in-line. Perhaps you could clear up a
                  few more points for me?

                  Thanks.

                  Robert

                  On 7/23/11 1:52 PM, Jan S. Krogh wrote:
                  > Robert,
                  > With "borderzone" I refer to a usually 200-5000 m wide restricted
                  > territory, and not the borderstrip or boundary vista. The Russian
                  > borderzone is about 2000 m. Lithuania has two borderzones; within about
                  > 5000 m from the boundary anybody needs to carry ID

                  In 2000, I traveled the road from Kybartai to Vistytis, which is much
                  closer than 5000 m from the border, and I don't remember any signs
                  stating that I was in a borderzone. In addition, I stopped at several
                  villages along the way and looked in cemeteries, and I also don't
                  remember any signs stating that the area was a borderzone.

                  > and within 200 m special permission.

                  Is there a fence there, i.e. 200 m from the borderline? This would be
                  the Lithuanian borderfence, 200 m from the exact borderline, where the
                  latter is demarcated by the Lepona River.

                  > The Soviet Sistema borderfence was/is located about 500 m from the
                  > national border. I am not familiar with any borderfence at the LTRU
                  > border, on neither side.

                  I've checked on Terrasever, and the borderfence that I saw in
                  Kaliningrad on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 was approximately 2300 meters
                  from the Lepona River.

                  Robert

                  > Jan
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > *From:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]*On Behalf Of *reidschun
                  > *Sent:* Saturday, July 23, 2011 7:45 PM
                  > *To:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > *Subject:* [borderpoint] Re: Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast:
                  > "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Jan,
                  >
                  > Thanks for your posting. However, you write "borderzones" but seem
                  > to be referring to "border strips", although I'm not sure. Which are
                  > you referring to? I distinguish between the two in my original posting.
                  >
                  > Thanks.
                  >
                  > Robert
                  >
                  > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jan S. Krogh" <jan@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Robert,
                  > >
                  > > Many East European countries has this kind of borderzones. It is
                  > partly a result of the schizophrenic traditions which begun after
                  > WWII – and more important, the Communistic system of stopping its
                  > own citizens to escape from the country. Many countries as Finland,
                  > Latvia and Lithuania still perform the Russian type borderzone which
                  > limits its citizen to get near the border. According to Soviet
                  > traditions some of these countries regard the exact borderline as a
                  > "strategic object" and its whereabouts are therefore secret. It is
                  > usually not allowed to photograph borderpoles and other objects in
                  > the vista. This is clearly anacronisms, but it helps the work with
                  > preventing various types of smuggling (alcohol, drugs, human beings).
                  > >
                  > > In Kaliningrad one has to apply for a permit to enter the
                  > borderzones. Contract a person or organization in the borderzone -
                  > or any travel agency in Kalingrad - and they might help you. This
                  > should be done at least one month previous to the visit.
                  > > Most likely this practice will cease with time. I have been in
                  > the borderzones and the Russian borderguards allowed us in even if
                  > we did not have the permit, but I do not reccomend this way if you
                  > have possibility to apply according to the regulations.
                  > >
                  > > Jan
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>]On Behalf Of Robert Eidschun
                  > > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:32 AM
                  > > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Subject: [borderpoint] Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border
                  > strip" or "no man's land" in-between?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I was in the Kaliningrad Oblast on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 right
                  > near the border with Lithuania, and the Russian border patrolman
                  > there explained that there are three fences between the Oblast and
                  > Lithuania: one right along the Lepona River, which demarcates the
                  > exact border; another a few hundred meters west in the Oblast; and
                  > another a few hundred meters east in Lithuania. Between the fence on
                  > the Russian side and the fence on the Lithuanian side is a "no man's
                  > land" (with the Lepona River and its fence in-between) that no one
                  > can visit without a special permit from either the Russian
                  > authorities or the Lithuanian authorities, depending on from which
                  > side you want to enter the "no man's land". In Russia, such a permit
                  > is in addition to the special permit required simply to be within a
                  > few kilometers (in Russia) of the "no man's land". The area within a
                  > few kilometers of the "no man's land" is the "border zone", as it's
                  > called in Russia; and the "no man's land" is sometimes called the
                  > "border strip".
                  > >
                  > > But according to the some of the postings here, it seems that
                  > some folks are managing to get right up to the Lepona river without
                  > permits or without having to pass through fences, which doesn't make
                  > any sense to me.
                  > >
                  > > Does anyone have any other knowledge of the "no man's land"
                  > between Lithuania and the Kaliningrad Oblast, and how things work
                  > there? I want to visit some cemeteries that lie just west of the
                  > Lepona River and therefore in the Oblast, but the Russian border
                  > patrolman with whom I met told me that those cemeteries lie within
                  > the "no man's land" and that therefore, I need a special permit,
                  > which he said would take at least a couple of days to get.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks.
                  > >
                  > > Robert
                • Jan S. Krogh
                  ... From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Robert Eidschun Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 9:13 PM To:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 23, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of Robert Eidschun
                    Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 9:13 PM
                    To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border
                    strip" or "no man's land" in-between?


                    Hi Jan,

                    Thanks for your reply.

                    I've made some comments below, in-line. Perhaps you could clear up a
                    few more points for me?

                    Thanks.

                    Robert

                    On 7/23/11 1:52 PM, Jan S. Krogh wrote:
                    > Robert,
                    > With "borderzone" I refer to a usually 200-5000 m wide restricted
                    > territory, and not the borderstrip or boundary vista. The Russian
                    > borderzone is about 2000 m. Lithuania has two borderzones; within about
                    > 5000 m from the boundary anybody needs to carry ID

                    In 2000, I traveled the road from Kybartai to Vistytis, which is much
                    closer than 5000 m from the border, and I don't remember any signs
                    stating that I was in a borderzone. In addition, I stopped at several
                    villages along the way and looked in cemeteries, and I also don't
                    remember any signs stating that the area was a borderzone.

                    *** Then you were already inside the borderzone; it is marked with a
                    "PASIENIO RUOZAS" traffic sign like this at about 5 km by road from the
                    closest border:
                    http://www.diena.lt/naujienos/kriminalai/uz-buvima-pasienio-ruoze-be-dokumen
                    tu-administracines-bylos-188216


                    > and within 200 m special permission.

                    Is there a fence there, i.e. 200 m from the borderline? This would be
                    the Lithuanian borderfence, 200 m from the exact borderline, where the
                    latter is demarcated by the Lepona River.

                    *** I have never seen any Lithuanian fence on the RU border. Although it
                    might be in populated areas as it is on the BYLT border, the socalled
                    Schengen fence. Example from BYLT here:
                    http://geosite.jankrogh.com/borders/bylt/sakaline_from_lt.htm

                    > The Soviet Sistema borderfence was/is located about 500 m from the
                    > national border. I am not familiar with any borderfence at the LTRU
                    > border, on neither side.

                    I've checked on Terrasever, and the borderfence that I saw in
                    Kaliningrad on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 was approximately 2300 meters
                    from the Lepona River.

                    *** Interesting; I was at Russian Vistytis (by car via Nevskoye) in April
                    this year and failed to notice it. We left from Vistytis westwards on the
                    local road before we got back on the highway at Gusev. On the other hand, we
                    did not expect to see any fence. But we were stopped by borderguards both on
                    entry and exit (about 5 km from Vistytis).

                    Robert

                    > Jan
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > *From:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]*On Behalf Of *reidschun
                    > *Sent:* Saturday, July 23, 2011 7:45 PM
                    > *To:* borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > *Subject:* [borderpoint] Re: Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast:
                    > "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Jan,
                    >
                    > Thanks for your posting. However, you write "borderzones" but seem
                    > to be referring to "border strips", although I'm not sure. Which are
                    > you referring to? I distinguish between the two in my original
                    posting.
                    >
                    > Thanks.
                    >
                    > Robert
                    >
                    > --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>, "Jan S. Krogh" <jan@...>
                    wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Robert,
                    > >
                    > > Many East European countries has this kind of borderzones. It is
                    > partly a result of the schizophrenic traditions which begun after
                    > WWII – and more important, the Communistic system of stopping its
                    > own citizens to escape from the country. Many countries as Finland,
                    > Latvia and Lithuania still perform the Russian type borderzone which
                    > limits its citizen to get near the border. According to Soviet
                    > traditions some of these countries regard the exact borderline as a
                    > "strategic object" and its whereabouts are therefore secret. It is
                    > usually not allowed to photograph borderpoles and other objects in
                    > the vista. This is clearly anacronisms, but it helps the work with
                    > preventing various types of smuggling (alcohol, drugs, human beings).
                    > >
                    > > In Kaliningrad one has to apply for a permit to enter the
                    > borderzones. Contract a person or organization in the borderzone -
                    > or any travel agency in Kalingrad - and they might help you. This
                    > should be done at least one month previous to the visit.
                    > > Most likely this practice will cease with time. I have been in
                    > the borderzones and the Russian borderguards allowed us in even if
                    > we did not have the permit, but I do not reccomend this way if you
                    > have possibility to apply according to the regulations.
                    > >
                    > > Jan
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>]On Behalf Of Robert Eidschun
                    > > Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2011 3:32 AM
                    > > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:borderpoint%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Subject: [borderpoint] Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border
                    > strip" or "no man's land" in-between?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > I was in the Kaliningrad Oblast on Sunday, July 10th, 2011 right
                    > near the border with Lithuania, and the Russian border patrolman
                    > there explained that there are three fences between the Oblast and
                    > Lithuania: one right along the Lepona River, which demarcates the
                    > exact border; another a few hundred meters west in the Oblast; and
                    > another a few hundred meters east in Lithuania. Between the fence on
                    > the Russian side and the fence on the Lithuanian side is a "no man's
                    > land" (with the Lepona River and its fence in-between) that no one
                    > can visit without a special permit from either the Russian
                    > authorities or the Lithuanian authorities, depending on from which
                    > side you want to enter the "no man's land". In Russia, such a permit
                    > is in addition to the special permit required simply to be within a
                    > few kilometers (in Russia) of the "no man's land". The area within a
                    > few kilometers of the "no man's land" is the "border zone", as it's
                    > called in Russia; and the "no man's land" is sometimes called the
                    > "border strip".
                    > >
                    > > But according to the some of the postings here, it seems that
                    > some folks are managing to get right up to the Lepona river without
                    > permits or without having to pass through fences, which doesn't make
                    > any sense to me.
                    > >
                    > > Does anyone have any other knowledge of the "no man's land"
                    > between Lithuania and the Kaliningrad Oblast, and how things work
                    > there? I want to visit some cemeteries that lie just west of the
                    > Lepona River and therefore in the Oblast, but the Russian border
                    > patrolman with whom I met told me that those cemeteries lie within
                    > the "no man's land" and that therefore, I need a special permit,
                    > which he said would take at least a couple of days to get.
                    > >
                    > > Thanks.
                    > >
                    > > Robert


                    ------------------------------------

                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • Robert Eidschun
                    Hi Jan, If you visited Russian Vistytis from Nevskoye, then I assume you took road P510, which runs from Dobrovol sk in the north, all the way to the border in
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 23, 2011
                    Hi Jan,

                    If you visited Russian Vistytis from Nevskoye, then I assume you took
                    road P510, which runs from Dobrovol'sk in the north, all the way to the
                    border in the south, where Zytkiejmy, Poland is just on the other side.
                    The P510 passes through Nestorov, Pushkino and Nevskoye, as well other
                    towns and villages. The Russian borderfence is always east of the P510
                    and usually at least a few hundred meters from the P510; and I imagine
                    that in most places along the P510, it would be difficult to see the
                    borderfence. We started off from Pushkino and went southeast then east
                    along a dirt road, and we didn't see the fence until we were about 2000
                    meters east of the P510. See photos attached.

                    Robert
                  • Jan S. Krogh
                    Hello Robert, Thank you very much for your information including ortomaps with text. Very interesting. Amazing...! Hard to get rid of old habits. Jan ...
                    Message 10 of 10 , Jul 27, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hello Robert,
                       
                      Thank you very much for your information including ortomaps with text.  Very interesting.
                      Amazing...!  Hard to get rid of old habits.
                       
                      Jan
                       
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto:borderpoint@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Robert Eidschun
                      Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2011 7:00 AM
                      To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Re: Lithuania and Kaliningrad Oblast: "border strip" or "no man's land" in-between? [2 Attachments]

                       

                      Hi Jan,

                      If you visited Russian Vistytis from Nevskoye, then I assume you took
                      road P510, which runs from Dobrovol'sk in the north, all the way to the
                      border in the south, where Zytkiejmy, Poland is just on the other side.
                      The P510 passes through Nestorov, Pushkino and Nevskoye, as well other
                      towns and villages. The Russian borderfence is always east of the P510
                      and usually at least a few hundred meters from the P510; and I imagine
                      that in most places along the P510, it would be difficult to see the
                      borderfence. We started off from Pushkino and went southeast then east
                      along a dirt road, and we didn't see the fence until we were about 2000
                      meters east of the P510. See photos attached.

                      Robert

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