Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [borderpoint] A Croatian exclave in Slovenia?

Expand Messages
  • Diego González
    The cadastrial map of the zone doesn t clear anything. The small triangle is marked as
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      The cadastrial map of the zone doesn't clear anything. The small triangle is marked as "HRV0", so it belongs to Croatia. But what seems to be the road is marked with the same numbers than the contiguous pieces of land. There is a large parcel that could be the road (its shape is almost the same), but it's marked with the number 6234. There isn't another parcel marked wit the croatian code "HRV" (from Hrvaška, slovenian name of the country)

      Another cadastrial interactive map can be found here, and in this one the road seems to be Croatian, but it's not connected with the triangle.

      Does anyone have a friend in Slovenia that could explain us this mistery? :D

      Regards.

      Diego.


      2011/3/1 <rpalmber@...>
       

      hi,
      i have wondered about this too.
      but judging by this info
      [http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki] i have also taken
      it as being NOT an enclave, because of the road connecting the
      triangle to the village proper. maybe we should go there hunting for
      border markers.
      best wishes,
      rolf

      http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki

      Citerar Diego González <fronterasblog@...>:



      > Hi, folks.
      >
      > I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica Zumberacka", a
      > tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of territory inside Slovenia. I
      > believed that it's not a true enclave, nor a pene-enclave, because the road
      > leading to it also belongs to Croatia (the same situation that occurs
      > between the two parts of the British base of Dekhelia). But in the slovenian
      > Wikipedia (link<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka>)

      > you can read (automatic translation):
      >
      > A special feature of the village is part of the territory that represents
      > the Croatian exclave <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eksklava> (and Slovenian

      > enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian villages Brezovica
      > by Metlika and little [Malo]
      > Le??e<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malo_Le%C5%A1%C4%8De>
      > . It is approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha, range is
      > 974 meters.
      > [1]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-0>

      > In it there are three house numbers.
      > [2]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-1>

      > The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so that the
      > transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica free.
      > [3]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-2>

      >
      > I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves, and I've
      > always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true exclave. Do
      > you have more information about it? I've found an old thread (
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about the towns, but
      > few more information. In this thread of
      > skyscrapercity<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181>I've

      > found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in a
      > previous
      > message<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179>)

      > that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two
      > conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae
      > (1<http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Arhiv_58#Hrvatska_eksklava_u_Sloveniji.3F>,
      > 2<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Izbrane_slike/Predlogi/Slika:Slovensko-hrva%C5%A1ka_meja_pri_Metliki.svg>)

      > notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an exclave.
      >
      > A new enclave for our lists?
      >
      > Regards
      >
      > Diego.
      >
      >
      > --
      > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
      >




      --
      http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
    • Peter Smaardijk
      With my *very* limited knowledge of Slovenian, I understand from note 3 in the Slovenian wikipedia article that one Irena Poženel, who is head of the section
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        With my *very* limited knowledge of Slovenian, I understand from note 3 in the Slovenian wikipedia article that one Irena Poženel, who is head of the section on the state border of the Geodetic Service of Slovenia, says that the link between the triangle and the rest is made purely to link it to the rest of the country, so that it's not seen as an extra polygon by software.

        Which would mean yes, it's an enclave. But why link it to the mainland in such a curvy way?

        Peter

        --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Diego González <fronterasblog@...> wrote:

        From: Diego González <fronterasblog@...>
        Subject: Re: [borderpoint] A Croatian exclave in Slovenia?
        To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 9:17 AM

         

        The cadastrial map of the zone doesn't clear anything. The small triangle is marked as "HRV0", so it belongs to Croatia. But what seems to be the road is marked with the same numbers than the contiguous pieces of land. There is a large parcel that could be the road (its shape is almost the same), but it's marked with the number 6234. There isn't another parcel marked wit the croatian code "HRV" (from Hrvaška, slovenian name of the country)

        Another cadastrial interactive map can be found here, and in this one the road seems to be Croatian, but it's not connected with the triangle.

        Does anyone have a friend in Slovenia that could explain us this mistery? :D

        Regards.

        Diego.


        2011/3/1 <rpalmber@...>
         

        hi,
        i have wondered about this too.
        but judging by this info
        [http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki] i have also taken
        it as being NOT an enclave, because of the road connecting the
        triangle to the village proper. maybe we should go there hunting for
        border markers.
        best wishes,
        rolf

        http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki

        Citerar Diego González <fronterasblog@...>:



        > Hi, folks.
        >
        > I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica Zumberacka", a
        > tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of territory inside Slovenia. I
        > believed that it's not a true enclave, nor a pene-enclave, because the road
        > leading to it also belongs to Croatia (the same situation that occurs
        > between the two parts of the British base of Dekhelia). But in the slovenian
        > Wikipedia (link<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka>)

        > you can read (automatic translation):
        >
        > A special feature of the village is part of the territory that represents
        > the Croatian exclave <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eksklava> (and Slovenian

        > enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian villages Brezovica
        > by Metlika and little [Malo]
        > Le??e<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malo_Le%C5%A1%C4%8De>
        > . It is approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha, range is
        > 974 meters.
        > [1]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-0>

        > In it there are three house numbers.
        > [2]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-1>

        > The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so that the
        > transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica free.
        > [3]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-2>

        >
        > I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves, and I've
        > always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true exclave. Do
        > you have more information about it? I've found an old thread (
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about the towns, but
        > few more information. In this thread of
        > skyscrapercity<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181>I've

        > found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in a
        > previous
        > message<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179>)

        > that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two
        > conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae
        > (1<http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Arhiv_58#Hrvatska_eksklava_u_Sloveniji.3F>,
        > 2<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Izbrane_slike/Predlogi/Slika:Slovensko-hrva%C5%A1ka_meja_pri_Metliki.svg>)

        > notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an exclave.
        >
        > A new enclave for our lists?
        >
        > Regards
        >
        > Diego.
        >
        >
        > --
        > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
        >




        --
        http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com

      • Artur Kroc
        There is a few interesting articles about this village, one of them is about divided vineyard http://www.dnevnik.si/novice/slovenija/286241/ (article is in
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
        • 0 Attachment

          There is a few interesting articles about this village, one of them is about divided vineyard

          http://www.dnevnik.si/novice/slovenija/286241/

          (article is in Slovene but I find google translation as quite accurate).

          Another article:

          http://www.dnevnik.si/novice/slovenija/1042272301

          Artur
          "Peter Smaardijk" <smaardijk@...> pisze:

           

           

          With my *very* limited knowledge of Slovenian, I understand from note 3 in the Slovenian wikipedia article that one Irena Poženel, who is head of the section on the state border of the Geodetic Service of Slovenia, says that the link between the triangle and the rest is made purely to link it to the rest of the country, so that it's not seen as an extra polygon by software.

          Which would mean yes, it's an enclave. But why link it to the mainland in such a curvy way?

          Peter

          --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Diego González <fronterasblog@...> wrote:

          From: Diego González <fronterasblog@...>
          Subject: Re: [borderpoint] A Croatian exclave in Slovenia?
          To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 9:17 AM

           

          The cadastrial map of the zone doesn't clear anything. The small triangle is marked as "HRV0", so it belongs to Croatia. But what seems to be the road is marked with the same numbers than the contiguous pieces of land. There is a large parcel that could be the road (its shape is almost the same), but it's marked with the number 6234. There isn't another parcel marked wit the croatian code "HRV" (from Hrvaška, slovenian name of the country)

          Another cadastrial interactive map can be found here, and in this one the road seems to be Croatian, but it's not connected with the triangle.

          Does anyone have a friend in Slovenia that could explain us this mistery? :D

          Regards.

          Diego.


          2011/3/1 <rpalmber@...>
           

          hi,
          i have wondered about this too.
          but judging by this info
          [http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki] i have also taken
          it as being NOT an enclave, because of the road connecting the
          triangle to the village proper. maybe we should go there hunting for
          border markers.
          best wishes,
          rolf

          http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki

          Citerar Diego González <fronterasblog@...>:



          > Hi, folks.
          >
          > I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica Zumberacka", a
          > tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of territory inside Slovenia. I
          > believed that it's not a true enclave, nor a pene-enclave, because the road
          > leading to it also belongs to Croatia (the same situation that occurs
          > between the two parts of the British base of Dekhelia). But in the slovenian
          > Wikipedia (link<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka>)

          > you can read (automatic translation):
          >
          > A special feature of the village is part of the territory that represents
          > the Croatian exclave <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eksklava> (and Slovenian

          > enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian villages Brezovica
          > by Metlika and little [Malo]
          > Le??e<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malo_Le%C5%A1%C4%8De>
          > . It is approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha, range is
          > 974 meters.
          > [1]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-0>

          > In it there are three house numbers.
          > [2]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-1>

          > The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so that the
          > transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica free.
          > [3]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-2>

          >
          > I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves, and I've
          > always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true exclave. Do
          > you have more information about it? I've found an old thread (
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about the towns, but
          > few more information. In this thread of
          > skyscrapercity<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181>I've

          > found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in a
          > previous
          > message<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179>)

          > that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two
          > conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae
          > (1<http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Arhiv_58#Hrvatska_eksklava_u_Sloveniji.3F>,
          > 2<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Izbrane_slike/Predlogi/Slika:Slovensko-hrva%C5%A1ka_meja_pri_Metliki.svg>)

          > notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an exclave.
          >
          > A new enclave for our lists?
          >
          > Regards
          >
          > Diego.
          >
          >
          > --
          > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
          >




          --
          http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com




          --
          Artur Kroc
          --------------
          Ten e-mail i ewentualne załączniki mogą zawierać poufne lub/oraz prawnie chronione informacje. Jeśli nie jesteś zamierzonym odbiorcą lub otrzymałeś ten list przez pomyłkę, niezwłocznie powiadom nadawcę, a następnie go skasuj.

          -------------------------------------------------
          1 paczek = 300 kalorii, pokaz znajomym co im grozi po tłustym czwartku !
          Zobacz >> http://linkint.pl/f2933
        • Goyta' F. Villela Jr.
          ... Unfortunately, both articles are available only to subscribers and only the first paragraph can be read. I don t know a word of Slovene (though I ve heard
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            > There is a few interesting articles about this village, one of them > is about divided vineyard
            > ...
            > (article is in Slovene but I find google translation as quite
            > accurate).
            > Another article:
            > ...


            Unfortunately, both articles are available only to subscribers and only the first paragraph can be read. I don't know a word of Slovene (though I've heard it from two Slovenian guys I met here in Brazil, and I found it interesting because it doesn't sound much Slavic, it sounds more as if it were Germanic). So, I can't tell how accurate it is, but the Google translation was understandable (except for the second text, whose title became "Locals border Brezovica are wondering why some of the flies are working elephant"!!!). That was when I translated it into English; the text was absolute nonsense when translated into Portuguese.

            But I could understand that the border is so crooked there that you have to cross it several times to reach the village, and that villagers were frightened when Croatia started putting border signs, while however reassuring them there was nothing to worry about. As for the "flies working elephant," no clue... :-)


            Regards,

            Goytá
          • Artur Kroc
            Goyta, just type the yellow-highlighted words into the gap to read the whole article.Artur Goyta F. Villela Jr. pisze:  ...
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
            • 0 Attachment

              Goyta, just type the yellow-highlighted words into the gap to read the whole article.

              Artur

              "Goyta' F. Villela Jr." <goytabr@...> pisze:

               

              > There is a few interesting articles about this village, one of them > is about divided vineyard
              > ...
              > (article is in Slovene but I find google translation as quite
              > accurate).
              > Another article:
              > ...

              Unfortunately, both articles are available only to subscribers and only the first paragraph can be read. I don't know a word of Slovene (though I've heard it from two Slovenian guys I met here in Brazil, and I found it interesting because it doesn't sound much Slavic, it sounds more as if it were Germanic). So, I can't tell how accurate it is, but the Google translation was understandable (except for the second text, whose title became "Locals border Brezovica are wondering why some of the flies are working elephant"!!!). That was when I translated it into English; the text was absolute nonsense when translated into Portuguese.

              But I could understand that the border is so crooked there that you have to cross it several times to reach the village, and that villagers were frightened when Croatia started putting border signs, while however reassuring them there was nothing to worry about. As for the "flies working elephant," no clue... :-)

              Regards,

              Goytá




              --
              Artur Kroc
              --------------
              Ten e-mail i ewentualne załączniki mogą zawierać poufne lub/oraz prawnie chronione informacje. Jeśli nie jesteś zamierzonym odbiorcą lub otrzymałeś ten list przez pomyłkę, niezwłocznie powiadom nadawcę, a następnie go skasuj.

              -------------------------------------------------
              1 paczek = 300 kalorii, pokaz znajomym co im grozi po tłustym czwartku !
              Zobacz >> http://linkint.pl/f2933
            • Romain HODAPP
              Hi, And what do tou think of this part of Slovenia (just near the tripoint with Croatia and Hungary) ? Enclave or not :
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi,
                And what do tou think of this part of Slovenia (just near the tripoint with Croatia and Hungary) ? Enclave or not :

                Regards,
                Romain


                Le 28 févr. 2011 à 15:48, Diego González a écrit :

                 

                Hi, folks.

                I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica Zumberacka", a tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of territory inside Slovenia. I believed that it's not a true enclave, nor a pene-enclave, because the road leading to it also belongs to Croatia (the same situation that occurs between the two parts of the British base of Dekhelia). But in the slovenian Wikipedia (link) you can read (automatic translation):

                A special feature of the village is part of the territory that represents the Croatian exclave (and Slovenian enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian villages Brezovica by Metlika and little [Malo] Lešće . It is approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha, range is 974 meters. [1] In it there are three house numbers. [2] The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so that the transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica free. [3]

                I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves, and I've always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true exclave. Do you have more information about it? I've found an old thread (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about the towns, but few more information. In this thread of skyscrapercity I've found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in a previous message) that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae (1, 2) notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an exclave.

                A new enclave for our lists?

                Regards

                Diego.


                --
                http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com


              • Romain HODAPP
                the link with the triangle seems to be the limits of the 2 slovenian villages of Brezovica pri Metliki and Malo Lesce :
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  the "link" with the triangle seems to be the limits of the 2 slovenian villages of Brezovica pri Metliki and Malo Lesce :


                  Romain


                  Le 1 mars 2011 à 09:46, Peter Smaardijk a écrit :

                   

                  With my *very* limited knowledge of Slovenian, I understand from note 3 in the Slovenian wikipedia article that one Irena Poženel, who is head of the section on the state border of the Geodetic Service of Slovenia, says that the link between the triangle and the rest is made purely to link it to the rest of the country, so that it's not seen as an extra polygon by software.

                  Which would mean yes, it's an enclave. But why link it to the mainland in such a curvy way?

                  Peter

                  --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Diego González <fronterasblog@...> wrote:

                  From: Diego González <fronterasblog@...>
                  Subject: Re: [borderpoint] A Croatian exclave in Slovenia?
                  To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 9:17 AM

                   

                  The cadastrial map of the zone doesn't clear anything. The small triangle is marked as "HRV0", so it belongs to Croatia. But what seems to be the road is marked with the same numbers than the contiguous pieces of land. There is a large parcel that could be the road (its shape is almost the same), but it's marked with the number 6234. There isn't another parcel marked wit the croatian code "HRV" (from Hrvaška, slovenian name of the country)

                  Another cadastrial interactive map can be found here, and in this one the road seems to be Croatian, but it's not connected with the triangle.

                  Does anyone have a friend in Slovenia that could explain us this mistery? :D

                  Regards.

                  Diego.


                  2011/3/1 <rpalmber@...>
                   

                  hi,
                  i have wondered about this too.
                  but judging by this info
                  [http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki] i have also taken
                  it as being NOT an enclave, because of the road connecting the
                  triangle to the village proper. maybe we should go there hunting for
                  border markers.
                  best wishes,
                  rolf

                  http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki

                  Citerar Diego González <fronterasblog@...>:



                  > Hi, folks.
                  >
                  > I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica Zumberacka", a
                  > tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of territory inside Slovenia. I
                  > believed that it's not a true enclave, nor a pene-enclave, because the road
                  > leading to it also belongs to Croatia (the same situation that occurs
                  > between the two parts of the British base of Dekhelia). But in the slovenian
                  > Wikipedia (link<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka>)

                  > you can read (automatic translation):
                  >
                  > A special feature of the village is part of the territory that represents
                  > the Croatian exclave <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eksklava> (and Slovenian

                  > enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian villages Brezovica
                  > by Metlika and little [Malo]
                  > Le??e<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malo_Le%C5%A1%C4%8De>
                  > . It is approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha, range is
                  > 974 meters.
                  > [1]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-0>

                  > In it there are three house numbers.
                  > [2]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-1>

                  > The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so that the
                  > transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica free.
                  > [3]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-2>

                  >
                  > I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves, and I've
                  > always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true exclave. Do
                  > you have more information about it? I've found an old thread (
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about the towns, but
                  > few more information. In this thread of
                  > skyscrapercity<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181>I've

                  > found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in a
                  > previous
                  > message<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179>)

                  > that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two
                  > conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae
                  > (1<http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Arhiv_58#Hrvatska_eksklava_u_Sloveniji.3F>,
                  > 2<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Izbrane_slike/Predlogi/Slika:Slovensko-hrva%C5%A1ka_meja_pri_Metliki.svg>)

                  > notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an exclave.
                  >
                  > A new enclave for our lists?
                  >
                  > Regards
                  >
                  > Diego.
                  >
                  >
                  > --
                  > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
                  >




                  --
                  http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com


                • Peter Smaardijk
                  Makes sense. Yes, you re probably right. Peter ... From: Romain HODAPP Subject: Re: [borderpoint] A Croatian exclave in Slovenia? To:
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Makes sense. Yes, you're probably right.
                    Peter

                    --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Romain HODAPP <romain.hodapp@...> wrote:

                    From: Romain HODAPP <romain.hodapp@...>
                    Subject: Re: [borderpoint] A Croatian exclave in Slovenia?
                    To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 8:59 PM

                     
                    the "link" with the triangle seems to be the limits of the 2 slovenian villages of Brezovica pri Metliki and Malo Lesce :


                    Romain


                    Le 1 mars 2011 à 09:46, Peter Smaardijk a écrit :

                     
                    With my *very* limited knowledge of Slovenian, I understand from note 3 in the Slovenian wikipedia article that one Irena Poženel, who is head of the section on the state border of the Geodetic Service of Slovenia, says that the link between the triangle and the rest is made purely to link it to the rest of the country, so that it's not seen as an extra polygon by software.

                    Which would mean yes, it's an enclave. But why link it to the mainland in such a curvy way?

                    Peter

                    --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Diego González <fronterasblog@...> wrote:

                    From: Diego González <fronterasblog@...>
                    Subject: Re: [borderpoint] A Croatian exclave in Slovenia?
                    To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 9:17 AM

                     
                    The cadastrial map of the zone doesn't clear anything. The small triangle is marked as "HRV0", so it belongs to Croatia. But what seems to be the road is marked with the same numbers than the contiguous pieces of land. There is a large parcel that could be the road (its shape is almost the same), but it's marked with the number 6234. There isn't another parcel marked wit the croatian code "HRV" (from Hrvaška, slovenian name of the country)

                    Another cadastrial interactive map can be found here, and in this one the road seems to be Croatian, but it's not connected with the triangle.

                    Does anyone have a friend in Slovenia that could explain us this mistery? :D

                    Regards.

                    Diego.


                    2011/3/1 <rpalmber@...>
                     
                    hi,
                    i have wondered about this too.
                    but judging by this info
                    [http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki] i have also taken
                    it as being NOT an enclave, because of the road connecting the
                    triangle to the village proper. maybe we should go there hunting for
                    border markers.
                    best wishes,
                    rolf

                    http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki

                    Citerar Diego González <fronterasblog@...>:


                    > Hi, folks.
                    >
                    > I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica Zumberacka", a
                    > tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of territory inside Slovenia. I
                    > believed that it's not a true enclave, nor a pene-enclave, because the road
                    > leading to it also belongs to Croatia (the same situation that occurs
                    > between the two parts of the British base of Dekhelia). But in the slovenian
                    > Wikipedia (link<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka>)

                    > you can read (automatic translation):
                    >
                    > A special feature of the village is part of the territory that represents
                    > the Croatian exclave <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eksklava> (and Slovenian

                    > enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian villages Brezovica
                    > by Metlika and little [Malo]
                    > Le??e<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malo_Le%C5%A1%C4%8De>
                    > . It is approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha, range is
                    > 974 meters.
                    > [1]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-0>

                    > In it there are three house numbers.
                    > [2]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-1>

                    > The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so that the
                    > transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica free.
                    > [3]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-2>

                    >
                    > I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves, and I've
                    > always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true exclave. Do
                    > you have more information about it? I've found an old thread (
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about the towns, but
                    > few more information. In this thread of
                    > skyscrapercity<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181>I've

                    > found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in a
                    > previous
                    > message<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179>)

                    > that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two
                    > conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae
                    > (1<http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Arhiv_58#Hrvatska_eksklava_u_Sloveniji.3F>,
                    > 2<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Izbrane_slike/Predlogi/Slika:Slovensko-hrva%C5%A1ka_meja_pri_Metliki.svg>)

                    > notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an exclave.
                    >
                    > A new enclave for our lists?
                    >
                    > Regards
                    >
                    > Diego.
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
                    >




                    --
                    http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com



                  • Romain HODAPP
                    http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_Žumberačka (Hrvaška eksklava = Croatian exclave) So the right name of this enclave/exclave seems to be Brezovica
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
                    • 0 Attachment
                      http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_Žumberačka (Hrvaška eksklava = Croatian exclave)

                      So the right name of this enclave/exclave seems to be Brezovica Žumberačka ;)
                      Romain




                      Le 1 mars 2011 à 09:46, Peter Smaardijk a écrit :

                       

                      With my *very* limited knowledge of Slovenian, I understand from note 3 in the Slovenian wikipedia article that one Irena Poženel, who is head of the section on the state border of the Geodetic Service of Slovenia, says that the link between the triangle and the rest is made purely to link it to the rest of the country, so that it's not seen as an extra polygon by software.

                      Which would mean yes, it's an enclave. But why link it to the mainland in such a curvy way?

                      Peter

                      --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Diego González <fronterasblog@...> wrote:

                      From: Diego González <fronterasblog@...>
                      Subject: Re: [borderpoint] A Croatian exclave in Slovenia?
                      To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 9:17 AM

                       

                      The cadastrial map of the zone doesn't clear anything. The small triangle is marked as "HRV0", so it belongs to Croatia. But what seems to be the road is marked with the same numbers than the contiguous pieces of land. There is a large parcel that could be the road (its shape is almost the same), but it's marked with the number 6234. There isn't another parcel marked wit the croatian code "HRV" (from Hrvaška, slovenian name of the country)

                      Another cadastrial interactive map can be found here, and in this one the road seems to be Croatian, but it's not connected with the triangle.

                      Does anyone have a friend in Slovenia that could explain us this mistery? :D

                      Regards.

                      Diego.


                      2011/3/1 <rpalmber@...>
                       

                      hi,
                      i have wondered about this too.
                      but judging by this info
                      [http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki] i have also taken
                      it as being NOT an enclave, because of the road connecting the
                      triangle to the village proper. maybe we should go there hunting for
                      border markers.
                      best wishes,
                      rolf

                      http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki

                      Citerar Diego González <fronterasblog@...>:



                      > Hi, folks.
                      >
                      > I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica Zumberacka", a
                      > tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of territory inside Slovenia. I
                      > believed that it's not a true enclave, nor a pene-enclave, because the road
                      > leading to it also belongs to Croatia (the same situation that occurs
                      > between the two parts of the British base of Dekhelia). But in the slovenian
                      > Wikipedia (link<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka>)

                      > you can read (automatic translation):
                      >
                      > A special feature of the village is part of the territory that represents
                      > the Croatian exclave <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eksklava> (and Slovenian

                      > enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian villages Brezovica
                      > by Metlika and little [Malo]
                      > Le??e<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malo_Le%C5%A1%C4%8De>
                      > . It is approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha, range is
                      > 974 meters.
                      > [1]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-0>

                      > In it there are three house numbers.
                      > [2]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-1>

                      > The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so that the
                      > transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica free.
                      > [3]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-2>

                      >
                      > I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves, and I've
                      > always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true exclave. Do
                      > you have more information about it? I've found an old thread (
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about the towns, but
                      > few more information. In this thread of
                      > skyscrapercity<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181>I've

                      > found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in a
                      > previous
                      > message<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179>)

                      > that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two
                      > conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae
                      > (1<http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Arhiv_58#Hrvatska_eksklava_u_Sloveniji.3F>,
                      > 2<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Izbrane_slike/Predlogi/Slika:Slovensko-hrva%C5%A1ka_meja_pri_Metliki.svg>)

                      > notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an exclave.
                      >
                      > A new enclave for our lists?
                      >
                      > Regards
                      >
                      > Diego.
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
                      >




                      --
                      http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com


                    • Peter
                      Brezovica pri Metliki is probably the name of the Slovenian part of Brezovica (meaning Brezovica near Metlika (the nearest Slovenian town)). Brezovica
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Brezovica pri Metliki is probably the name of the Slovenian part of Brezovica (meaning Brezovica near Metlika (the nearest Slovenian town)). Brezovica Žumberačka means Brezovica in Žumberak (or more literally "Žumberakian Brezovica"); Žumberak is a Croatian region, so that would be the name of the Croatian part. So probably not just the exclave. Compare with Baarle-Nassau and Baarle-Hertog, the latter not just consisting of exclaves but of parts of the mainland as well.

                        Peter



                        --- In borderpoint@yahoogroups.com, Romain HODAPP <romain.hodapp@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%c3%85%c2%bdumbera%c3%84%c2%8dka (Hrvaška eksklava = Croatian exclave)
                        >
                        > So the right name of this enclave/exclave seems to be Brezovica Žumberačka ;)
                        > Romain
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Le 1 mars 2011 à 09:46, Peter Smaardijk a écrit :
                        >
                        > > With my *very* limited knowledge of Slovenian, I understand from note 3 in the Slovenian wikipedia article that one Irena Poženel, who is head of the section on the state border of the Geodetic Service of Slovenia, says that the link between the triangle and the rest is made purely to link it to the rest of the country, so that it's not seen as an extra polygon by software.
                        > >
                        > > Which would mean yes, it's an enclave. But why link it to the mainland in such a curvy way?
                        > >
                        > > Peter
                        > >
                        > > --- On Tue, 3/1/11, Diego González <fronterasblog@...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > From: Diego González <fronterasblog@...>
                        > > Subject: Re: [borderpoint] A Croatian exclave in Slovenia?
                        > > To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Date: Tuesday, March 1, 2011, 9:17 AM
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The cadastrial map of the zone doesn't clear anything. The small triangle is marked as "HRV0", so it belongs to Croatia. But what seems to be the road is marked with the same numbers than the contiguous pieces of land. There is a large parcel that could be the road (its shape is almost the same), but it's marked with the number 6234. There isn't another parcel marked wit the croatian code "HRV" (from Hrvaška, slovenian name of the country)
                        > >
                        > > Another cadastrial interactive map can be found here, and in this one the road seems to be Croatian, but it's not connected with the triangle.
                        > >
                        > > Does anyone have a friend in Slovenia that could explain us this mistery? :D
                        > >
                        > > Regards.
                        > >
                        > > Diego.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 2011/3/1 <rpalmber@...>
                        > >
                        > > hi,
                        > > i have wondered about this too.
                        > > but judging by this info
                        > > [http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki%5d i have also taken
                        > > it as being NOT an enclave, because of the road connecting the
                        > > triangle to the village proper. maybe we should go there hunting for
                        > > border markers.
                        > > best wishes,
                        > > rolf
                        > >
                        > > http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki
                        > >
                        > > Citerar Diego González <fronterasblog@...>:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > Hi, folks.
                        > > >
                        > > > I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica Zumberacka", a
                        > > > tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of territory inside Slovenia. I
                        > > > believed that it's not a true enclave, nor a pene-enclave, because the road
                        > > > leading to it also belongs to Croatia (the same situation that occurs
                        > > > between the two parts of the British base of Dekhelia). But in the slovenian
                        > > > Wikipedia (link<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka>)
                        > >
                        > > > you can read (automatic translation):
                        > > >
                        > > > A special feature of the village is part of the territory that represents
                        > > > the Croatian exclave <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eksklava> (and Slovenian
                        > >
                        > > > enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian villages Brezovica
                        > > > by Metlika and little [Malo]
                        > > > Le??e<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malo_Le%C5%A1%C4%8De>
                        > > > . It is approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha, range is
                        > > > 974 meters.
                        > > > [1]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-0>
                        > >
                        > > > In it there are three house numbers.
                        > > > [2]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-1>
                        > >
                        > > > The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so that the
                        > > > transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica free.
                        > > > [3]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-2>
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves, and I've
                        > > > always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true exclave. Do
                        > > > you have more information about it? I've found an old thread (
                        > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about the towns, but
                        > > > few more information. In this thread of
                        > > > skyscrapercity<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181>I've
                        > >
                        > > > found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in a
                        > > > previous
                        > > > message<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179>)
                        > >
                        > > > that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two
                        > > > conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae
                        > > > (1<http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Arhiv_58#Hrvatska_eksklava_u_Sloveniji.3F>,
                        > > > 2<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Izbrane_slike/Predlogi/Slika:Slovensko-hrva%C5%A1ka_meja_pri_Metliki.svg>)
                        > >
                        > > > notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an exclave.
                        > > >
                        > > > A new enclave for our lists?
                        > > >
                        > > > Regards
                        > > >
                        > > > Diego.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --
                        > > > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --
                        > > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Len Nadybal
                        Diego Wrote: There isn t another parcel marked wit the croatian code HRV (from Hrva¹ka, slovenian name of the country) There are lots of little plots in the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Diego Wrote:
                          There isn't another parcel marked wit the croatian code "HRV" (from
                          Hrvaška, slovenian name of the country)

                          There are lots of little plots in the map showing they belong to Croatia
                          (hard to see - all marked in yellow only, all very small all right along
                          the border mostly north and west of the larger triangular area we think
                          may be an enclave). They aren't marked with international borders any
                          more than the large triangular areas has - the border skirts alongside
                          them. We can't exclude the possibility that these plots are property of
                          Croatia, while not within the sovereign part of Croatia. We have to
                          consider that maps showing an international border around the larger
                          triangular plot (including the one with the squirrely line connecting it
                          to Croatia area) may be incorrect. The one with the squirrely line
                          eliminating the exclave status is definitely incorrect - inaccuracy for
                          the purposes of getting along with a computer??? It's acop-out, just
                          like Google no longer showing the St, Martin/St Maarten border in the
                          Carribean and others). The map from Geopedia is consistent by not
                          showing international borders around any plot marked HRV0. If one is
                          going to draw a border around the large one, then there must be lines
                          drawn around the others, too (unless two "statuses" exist - the little
                          ones private only and the triangular one really as part of Croatia).

                          All in all, we don't know much more than we did before.

                          LN




                          Diego González wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > The cadastrial map of the zone doesn't clear anything. The small
                          > triangle is marked as "HRV0"
                          > <http://www.geopedia.si/#T105_L741_F1488956_x524075.30000000005_y60678.880000000005_s17>,
                          > so it belongs to Croatia. But what seems to be the road is marked with
                          > the same numbers than the contiguous pieces of land. There is a large
                          > parcel that could be the road (its shape is almost the same), but it's
                          > marked with the number 6234
                          > <http://www.geopedia.si/#T105_L741_F1487253_x524075.30000000005_y60678.880000000005_s17>.
                          > There isn't another parcel marked wit the croatian code "HRV" (from
                          > Hrvaška, slovenian name of the country)
                          >
                          > Another cadastrial interactive map can be found here
                          > <http://gis.arso.gov.si/atlasokolja/profile.aspx?id=Atlas_Okolja_AXL@Arso>,
                          > and in this one the road seems to be Croatian, but it's not connected
                          > with the triangle.
                          >
                          > Does anyone have a friend in Slovenia that could explain us this
                          > mistery? :D
                          >
                          > Regards.
                          >
                          > Diego.
                          >
                          >
                          > 2011/3/1 <rpalmber@... <mailto:rpalmber@...>>
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > hi,
                          > i have wondered about this too.
                          > but judging by this info
                          > [http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki%5d i have also
                          > taken
                          > it as being NOT an enclave, because of the road connecting the
                          > triangle to the village proper. maybe we should go there hunting for
                          > border markers.
                          > best wishes,
                          > rolf
                          >
                          > http://wikimapia.org/5519161/Brezovica-pri-Metliki
                          >
                          > Citerar Diego González <fronterasblog@...
                          > <mailto:fronterasblog%40gmail.com>>:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > Hi, folks.
                          > >
                          > > I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica
                          > Zumberacka", a
                          > > tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of territory inside
                          > Slovenia. I
                          > > believed that it's not a true enclave, nor a pene-enclave,
                          > because the road
                          > > leading to it also belongs to Croatia (the same situation that
                          > occurs
                          > > between the two parts of the British base of Dekhelia). But in
                          > the slovenian
                          > > Wikipedia
                          > (link<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka>)
                          >
                          > > you can read (automatic translation):
                          > >
                          > > A special feature of the village is part of the territory that
                          > represents
                          > > the Croatian exclave <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eksklava>
                          > (and Slovenian
                          >
                          > > enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian
                          > villages Brezovica
                          > > by Metlika and little [Malo]
                          > > Le??e<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malo_Le%C5%A1%C4%8De>
                          > > . It is approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha,
                          > range is
                          > > 974 meters.
                          > >
                          > [1]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-0>
                          >
                          >
                          > > In it there are three house numbers.
                          > >
                          > [2]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-1>
                          >
                          >
                          > > The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so
                          > that the
                          > > transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica free.
                          > >
                          > [3]<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-2>
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves,
                          > and I've
                          > > always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true
                          > exclave. Do
                          > > you have more information about it? I've found an old thread (
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about
                          > the towns, but
                          > > few more information. In this thread of
                          > >
                          > skyscrapercity<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181
                          > <http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181>>I've
                          >
                          >
                          > > found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in a
                          > > previous
                          > >
                          > message<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179
                          > <http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179>>)
                          >
                          >
                          > > that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two
                          > > conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae
                          > >
                          > (1<http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Arhiv_58#Hrvatska_eksklava_u_Sloveniji.3F>,
                          > >
                          > 2<http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Izbrane_slike/Predlogi/Slika:Slovensko-hrva%C5%A1ka_meja_pri_Metliki.svg>)
                          >
                          >
                          > > notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an
                          > exclave.
                          > >
                          > > A new enclave for our lists?
                          > >
                          > > Regards
                          > >
                          > > Diego.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --
                          > > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --
                          > http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _______________________________________________________
                          > Unlimited Disk, Data Transfer, PHP/MySQL Domain Hosting
                          > http://www.doteasy.com



                          _______________________________________________________
                          Unlimited Disk, Data Transfer, PHP/MySQL Domain Hosting
                          http://www.doteasy.com
                        • Len Nadybal
                          The group having kindly pointed to cadastre maps I d not known of before, led to me explore parts of Slovenia s border tonight. I feel like Columbus - found
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
                          The group having kindly pointed to cadastre maps I'd not known of
                          before, led to me explore parts of Slovenia's border tonight.

                          I feel like Columbus - found something that was always there. Just
                          needed good maps.

                          On the Mura river, a piece of Slovenia, that all road maps of the area
                          that I have ever looked at show as a contiguous area of Slovenia,
                          appears to be a true exclave of Slovenia bordered by Croatia and
                          Hungary. What road maps picture as a bulge on the east end of Slovenia
                          that's connected to Slovenia by a piece of a river, has no such access.
                          The cadastre maps are very precise in showing that there is no
                          connection across the ca. 600 meters of Croatia that are between
                          motherland Slovenia and its detached piece.

                          The exclave creates two more tripoints between these three countries
                          than I think anyone in our group knew of before.

                          Follow the link below or see the attached photos.

                          I'm calling it "exclave on the Mura". It made my day.

                          What else has ex-Jugoslavia got to offer???

                          Regards
                          Len Nadybal


                          http://www.geopedia.si/#T105_L741_F1487253_x524075.30000000005_y60678.880000000005_s17




                          _______________________________________________________
                          Unlimited Disk, Data Transfer, PHP/MySQL Domain Hosting
                          http://www.doteasy.com
                        • Len Nadybal
                          Hi, Romain, Independently of you, I came across this piece you wrote about last night. I ve visited all three national atlases of adjacent countries, and
                          Message 13 of 19 , Mar 1, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi, Romain,
                            Independently of you, I came across this piece you wrote about last
                            night. I've visited all three national atlases of adjacent countries,
                            and there is agreement between them, that this is an exclave. I had
                            heard from stamp collectors that there were Bosnian and Slovenian
                            enclaves, but with little postal history because they are not towns -
                            just land. Why Michelin and other road map makers would connect the
                            piece to the motherland by using a river - makes me wonder. Maybe a
                            border change was made that isn't in he cadastre maps that the road map
                            makers know about - maybe this has been eliminated?
                            Len

                            Romain HODAPP wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > Hi,
                            > And what do tou think of this part of Slovenia (just near the tripoint
                            > with Croatia and Hungary) ? Enclave or not :
                            > http://www.geopedia.si/Geopedia_en.html?params=L5567_F10114578_T105_vF_b4_x525838.5275_y56469.7105_s14#T105_L5567_F10114250_x623261_y148906_s16
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Romain
                            >
                            >
                            > Le 28 févr. 2011 à 15:48, Diego González a écrit :
                            >
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Hi, folks.
                            >>
                            >> I've been reading about a purported enclave named "Brezovica
                            >> Zumberacka", a tiny Croatian village with a small triangle of
                            >> territory inside Slovenia. I believed that it's not a true enclave,
                            >> nor a pene-enclave, because the road leading to it also belongs to
                            >> Croatia (the same situation that occurs between the two parts of the
                            >> British base of Dekhelia). But in the slovenian Wikipedia (link
                            >> <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka>) you
                            >> can read (automatic translation):
                            >>
                            >> A special feature of the village is part of the territory that
                            >> represents the Croatian exclave
                            >> <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eksklava> (and Slovenian
                            >> enclave). This is completely surrounded by the Slovenian villages
                            >> Brezovica by Metlika and little [Malo] Lešće
                            >> <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malo_Le%C5%A1%C4%8De> . It is
                            >> approximately triangular in shape, its area is 1.83 ha, range is
                            >> 974 meters. ^[1]
                            >> <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-0>
                            >> In it there are three house numbers. ^[2]
                            >> <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-1>
                            >> The territory is not specifically under police surveillance, so
                            >> that the transition between the Slovenian and Croatian Brezovica
                            >> free. ^[3]
                            >> <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezovica_%C5%BDumbera%C4%8Dka#cite_note-2>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> I have not found the supposed enclave in any list of -claves, and
                            >> I've always thaught that this slovenian-croatian border isn't a true
                            >> exclave. Do you have more information about it? I've found an old
                            >> thread (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/borderpoint/message/5765) about
                            >> the towns, but few more information. In this thread of skyscrapercity
                            >> <http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64511243&postcount=3181>
                            >> I've found a translation of a slovenian document (you can find it in
                            >> a previous message
                            >> <http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=64480691&postcount=3179>)
                            >> that also says this a true croatian exclave in slovenian soil. Two
                            >> conversations in slovenian and croatian Wikipediae (1
                            >> <http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Kafi%C4%87/Arhiv_58#Hrvatska_eksklava_u_Sloveniji.3F>,
                            >> 2
                            >> <http://sl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedija:Izbrane_slike/Predlogi/Slika:Slovensko-hrva%C5%A1ka_meja_pri_Metliki.svg>)
                            >> notices the same. The triangular-shaped portion of soil is an exclave.
                            >>
                            >> A new enclave for our lists?
                            >>
                            >> Regards
                            >>
                            >> Diego.
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> --
                            >> http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com <http://fronterasblog.wordpress.com/>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > _______________________________________________________
                            > Unlimited Disk, Data Transfer, PHP/MySQL Domain Hosting
                            > http://www.doteasy.com
                          • rpalmber@abo.fi
                            Congratulations, Len! In fact, Longueville Rudi pointed out to me some ten days ago that the Slovenian land by Mura could be an exclave. The map I looked at,
                            Message 14 of 19 , Mar 2, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Congratulations, Len!
                              In fact, Longueville Rudi pointed out to me some ten days ago that the
                              Slovenian land by Mura could be an exclave. The map I looked at,
                              however, had this river connection you mention, so I refused to
                              believe him.
                              As you say, who knows what else is hidden in the former Yugoslavia.
                              Greetings,
                              Rolf


                              Citerar Len Nadybal <lnadybal@...>:

                              > The group having kindly pointed to cadastre maps I'd not known of
                              > before, led to me explore parts of Slovenia's border tonight.
                              >
                              > I feel like Columbus - found something that was always there. Just
                              > needed good maps.
                              >
                              > On the Mura river, a piece of Slovenia, that all road maps of the area
                              > that I have ever looked at show as a contiguous area of Slovenia,
                              > appears to be a true exclave of Slovenia bordered by Croatia and
                              > Hungary. What road maps picture as a bulge on the east end of Slovenia
                              > that's connected to Slovenia by a piece of a river, has no such access.
                              > The cadastre maps are very precise in showing that there is no
                              > connection across the ca. 600 meters of Croatia that are between
                              > motherland Slovenia and its detached piece.
                              >
                              > The exclave creates two more tripoints between these three countries
                              > than I think anyone in our group knew of before.
                              >
                              > Follow the link below or see the attached photos.
                              >
                              > I'm calling it "exclave on the Mura". It made my day.
                              >
                              > What else has ex-Jugoslavia got to offer???
                              >
                              > Regards
                              > Len Nadybal
                              >
                              >
                              > http://www.geopedia.si/#T105_L741_F1487253_x524075.30000000005_y60678.880000000005_s17
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _______________________________________________________
                              > Unlimited Disk, Data Transfer, PHP/MySQL Domain Hosting
                              > http://www.doteasy.com
                            • Jesper Nielsen
                              I believe this tripoint is still disputed between HR and SI. Attached you found the HR version of the area, and also HU’s. Jesper _____ Fra:
                              Message 15 of 19 , Mar 2, 2011

                              I believe this tripoint is still disputed between HR and SI.

                               

                              Attached you found the HR version of the area, and also HU’s.

                               

                              Jesper


                              Fra: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com ] På vegne af rpalmber@...
                              Sendt: 2. marts 2011 14:17
                              Til: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                              Emne: Re: [borderpoint] Introducing a "new" exclave & 2 new tripoints - Croatia/Slovenia/Hungary

                               

                               

                              Congratulations, Len!
                              In fact, Longueville Rudi pointed out to me some ten days ago that the
                              Slovenian land by Mura could be an exclave. The map I looked at,
                              however, had this river connection you mention, so I refused to
                              believe him.
                              As you say, who knows what else is hidden in the former Yugoslavia.
                              Greetings,
                              Rolf

                              Citerar Len Nadybal <lnadybal@...>:

                              > The group having kindly pointed to cadastre maps I'd not known of
                              > before, led to me explore parts of Slovenia's border tonight.
                              >
                              > I feel like Columbus - found something that was always there. Just
                              > needed good maps.
                              >
                              > On the Mura river, a piece of Slovenia, that all road maps of the area
                              > that I have ever looked at show as a contiguous area of Slovenia,
                              > appears to be a true exclave of Slovenia bordered by Croatia and
                              > Hungary. What road maps picture as a bulge on the east end of Slovenia
                              > that's connected to Slovenia by a piece of a river, has no such access.
                              > The cadastre maps are very precise in showing that there is no
                              > connection across the ca.
                              w:st="on">600 meters of Croatia that are between
                              > motherland Slovenia and its detached piece.
                              >
                              > The exclave creates two more tripoints between these three countries
                              > than I think anyone in our group knew of before.
                              >
                              > Follow the link below or see the attached photos.
                              >
                              > I'm calling it "exclave on the Mura". It made my day.
                              >
                              > What else has ex-Jugoslavia got to offer???
                              >
                              > Regards
                              > Len Nadybal
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              href="http://www.geopedia.si/#T105_L741_F1487253_x524075.30000000005_y60678.880000000005_s17">http://www.geopedia.si/#T105_L741_F1487253_x524075.30000000005_y60678.880000000005_s17
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > _______________________________________________________
                              > Unlimited Disk, Data Transfer, PHP/MySQL Domain Hosting
                              > http://www.doteasy.com

                            • Artur Kroc
                              rpalmber@abo.fi pisze:   ... it seems to me that a lot of interesting. For example here you can find a map of HRSI border disputes (with English
                              Message 16 of 19 , Mar 4, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment



                                rpalmber@... pisze:

                                 

                                >As you say, who knows what else is hidden in the former Yugoslavia.




                                it seems to me that a lot of interesting.

                                For example here you can find a map of HRSI border disputes (with English description):

                                http://www.siol.net/slovenija/aktualno/2010/05/sporne_tocke_na_meji_istra.aspx

                                Information about one of the above mentioned disputes can be found here:

                                http://www.siol.net/slovenija/aktualno/2010/05/sporne_mejne_tocke_tomsiceva_parcela.aspx

                                 


                                --
                                Artur Kroc
                                --------------
                                Ten e-mail i ewentualne załączniki mogą zawierać poufne lub/oraz prawnie chronione informacje. Jeśli nie jesteś zamierzonym odbiorcą lub otrzymałeś ten list przez pomyłkę, niezwłocznie powiadom nadawcę, a następnie go skasuj.

                                ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                Czy wiesz, ze mieszkanie 50m2 mozna miec juz za 90 tys?
                                Sprawdz szczegoly >> http://linkint.pl/f2939
                              • Peter Smaardijk
                                Thanks for that, a good overview of all the sections more or less in dispute. Always tricky, cadastral boundaries suddenly having to turn to international
                                Message 17 of 19 , Mar 4, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks for that, a good overview of all the sections more or less in dispute. Always tricky, cadastral boundaries suddenly having to turn to international ones. Baarle-Nassau/Hertog springs to mind... These cadastral registries are probably all decentralised, and then you get the discrepancies...

                                  Peter

                                  PS: The Mlini ("Josko Joras and the imported dishwasher"-case) and Piran Bay (with the infamous "Point T5") cases have been discussed before here and on BoundaryPoint, I believe, but not the others. Any more info on all of them is more than welcome!

                                  --- On Fri, 3/4/11, Artur Kroc <kroc@...> wrote:

                                  From: Artur Kroc <kroc@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [borderpoint] Introducing a "new" exclave & 2 new tripoints - Croatia/Slovenia/Hungary
                                  To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Friday, March 4, 2011, 9:47 AM

                                   



                                  rpalmber@... pisze:

                                   

                                  >As you say, who knows what else is hidden in the former Yugoslavia.




                                  it seems to me that a lot of interesting.

                                  For example here you can find a map of HRSI border disputes (with English description):

                                  http://www.siol.net/slovenija/aktualno/2010/05/sporne_tocke_na_meji_istra.aspx

                                  Information about one of the above mentioned disputes can be found here:

                                  http://www.siol.net/slovenija/aktualno/2010/05/sporne_mejne_tocke_tomsiceva_parcela.aspx

                                   


                                  --
                                  Artur Kroc
                                  --------------
                                  Ten e-mail i ewentualne załączniki mogą zawierać poufne lub/oraz prawnie chronione informacje. Jeśli nie jesteś zamierzonym odbiorcą lub otrzymałeś ten list przez pomyłkę, niezwłocznie powiadom nadawcę, a następnie go skasuj.

                                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  Czy wiesz, ze mieszkanie 50m2 mozna miec juz za 90 tys?
                                  Sprawdz szczegoly >> http://linkint.pl/f2939

                                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.