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Re: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition

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  • Peter Smaardijk
    Not sure about the miracle, but on first reading (par. 3) it looks like His Majesty is decreeing several things for all or for part of the national
    Message 1 of 28 , Mar 7, 2010
      Not sure about the miracle, but on first reading (par. 3) it looks like His Majesty is decreeing several things "for all or for part of the national boundary". It looks like there might be some additional regulation as to which part of the national boundary these rules apply to. In other words, at NOSE or FINO, the rules may be not as strict as at NORU. I don't see Russia mentioned anywhere in that law. It would have been strange if it had been, for sure.
       
      Just guessing, of course.
       
      Peter

      --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Jesper <jesper@...> wrote:

      From: Jesper <jesper@...>
      Subject: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition
      To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 2:08 PM

       
      Here is the law in Norwegian (but I know you a linguistic miracle):

      http://grensekom. no/lov1.php

      §3.3 illegal to cross the border by land, water and air without authority

      §4 punishment by fine or inprisonment

      Jesper

      (§3.5 about photographing the border, the rule now applies to military personel and material only.

      --- In borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com, Peter Smaardijk <smaardijk@. ..> wrote:
      >
      > I don't know the exact verbum of this specific Norwegian law, of course, but I would think that you don't get the fine for entering Russia, but that you get the fine for leaving Norway at a point where it is not allowed and without official approval, i.e. at NORU, not having a visa and not going through the official border crossing point.
      >  
      > Pushing a tree over into Russia may cause damage or nuisance or whatever in Russia (illegal import of timber? :)  ), and I think Russia will protest to Norway, but Norway may have the right to fine you too, for doing something at NORU which is not allowed. The strict Norwegian rules at NORU are of course the result of Russia being particularly sensitive about what's going on at its borders, but that probably won't be reflected in the text of these rules.
      >  
      > B.t.w., you might get a fine for demolishing that tree, regardless of its location :)
      >  
      > Peter
      >
      > --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Jesper <jesper@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: Jesper <jesper@...>
      > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition
      > To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
      > Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 12:38 PM
      >
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      >
      > There a strict rules of what you can do from the NO side of NORU, and you get heavily fined for breaking them. NO does not want incidents at this borders.
      >
      > I woman reached out her arm expanding it into RU to photograph a RU marker. She got fined for putting her hand inside RU.
      >
      > I always wondered what would happen up there if eg a tree was close to the border and I pushed it over so it was leaning into RU. My body didn't enter, but I disturbed RU territory.
      >
      > I will follow up.
      >
      > Jesper
      >
      > --- In borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Len wrote:
      > >
      > > > If you only straddle the border and bring your one foot back into US
      > > > airspace, have you left and re-entered the USA? Maybe it's like Baarle if
      > > > your house straddles the border - it then matters where the door is.
      > > > Maybe in the case of straddlers, it's where their heart or brain is (more
      > > > than 50%).
      > >
      > > I always figured that it was your center of gravity that determined such
      > > things. Unlike your heart, brain, or any other organ, it's a unique point.
      > >
      > > Lowell G. McManus
      > > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
      > >
      >


    • Christopher R. Merlo
      On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Dallen Timothy wrote: Doug, I can assure you it was because of your picture taking. If you ... When I
      Message 2 of 28 , Mar 8, 2010
        On Sat, Mar 6, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Dallen Timothy <Dallen.Timothy@...> wrote:

        Doug, I can assure you it was because of your picture taking. If you happened to step foot over the border, literally go around a marker, you have committed a felony in the United States. On my trip last September I was warned by several border officials and residents on Zero Avenue, not to go over or around the border markers. You can go up to them, but not around them. This is an interesting change from years ago.

        When I visited the Peace Arch, on US Memorial Day (last Monday in May) of 2008 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/cmerlo441/sets/72157605273430133/), we drove from Seattle into the state park's parking lot, walked up to the arch, back and forth into BC, then out to 0 Avenue, down the street a few houses, and directly back over the boundary back to the car.  No helicopters or black SUVs.  Maybe because it was a holiday, but I certainly won't do it again after reading about your near-adventure.

        I understand that laws are laws, and we live in a culture of fear and all that, but really, isn't that a dumb law?  I was ten feet outside the US, and clearly didn't try to smuggle anything across in either direction.  Shouldn't there be an allowable buffer zone or something, especially where there's all that surveillance?  It's not like the US Border Patrol couldn't watch me every second I was there.  (Are they allowed to point their cameras across the border into Canada or Mexico?  Does that illegally import light waves or something?)  I feel like printing up bumper stickers that say "Border Marker Hunting Is Not A Crime!"  (Apologies to skateboarders.)

        By the way, Dallen, whose border officials warned you not to cross, Canada's or USA's?
        -c
      • Phil Lacefield Jr.
        ... Same exact thing for us, when we visited the same area a couple years ago. We were the only people in the state park, and on 0 Ave, and in the Peace Arch
        Message 3 of 28 , Mar 8, 2010
          Christopher R. Merlo writes:
          When I visited the Peace Arch, on US Memorial Day (last Monday in May) of
          2008 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/cmerlo441/sets/72157605273430133/), we
          drove from Seattle into the state park's parking lot, walked up to the arch,
          back and forth into BC, then out to 0 Avenue, down the street a few houses,
          and directly back over the boundary back to the car.  No helicopters or
          black SUVs.

          Same exact thing for us, when we visited the same area a couple years ago.  We were the only people in the state park, and on 0 Ave, and in the Peace Arch area.  We crossed and recrossed the border ditch repeatedly, no cameras, sensors or Border Patrol vehicles in sight.  Maybe it's just that area or something.

          Phil

        • Phil Lacefield Jr.
          And here is the link tot he images of that trip, starting with this one: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/thatsaabguy/Mar08/IMG_2780.jpg password, if it
          Message 4 of 28 , Mar 8, 2010
            And here is the link tot he images of that trip, starting with this one:

            http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v633/thatsaabguy/Mar08/IMG_2780.jpg

            password, if it asks, is baconcheese

            Phil

          • Jesper Nielsen
            Maybe I should have linked this too http://www.grensekom.no/lov2.php it mentions Sovjet-samvellet, which offcourse is the
            Message 5 of 28 , Mar 8, 2010

              Maybe I should have linked this too

              http://www.grensekom.no/lov2.php

               

              it mentions Sovjet-samvellet, which offcourse is the Soviet Union . There is probably some note somewhere that tells you that the RU supersedes SU.

               

              2c is interesting that crossing the border legally

              -          if lakes are shallow and you need to use main channnel.

              -          Log driving

              -          Emergencies

               

              5 also prohibit traffic on the river after dark.

               

              Jesper

               

               

               

               

               


              Fra: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com [mailto: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com ] På vegne af Peter Smaardijk
              Sendt: 7. marts 2010 23:10
              Til: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: Re: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition

               

               

              Not sure about the miracle, but on first reading (par. 3) it looks like His Majesty is decreeing several things "for all or for part of the national boundary". It looks like there might be some additional regulation as to which part of the national boundary these rules apply to. In other words, at NOSE or FINO, the rules may be not as strict as at NORU. I don't see Russia mentioned anywhere in that law. It would have been strange if it had been, for sure.

               

              Just guessing, of course.

               

              Peter

              --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Jesper <jesper@nicolette. dk> wrote:


              From: Jesper <jesper@nicolette. dk>
              Subject: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition
              To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 2:08 PM

               

              Here is the law in Norwegian (but I know you a linguistic miracle):

              http://grensekom. no/lov1.php

              §3.3 illegal to cross the border by land, water and air without authority

              §4 punishment by fine or inprisonment

              Jesper

              (§3.5 about photographing the border, the rule now applies to military personel and material only.

              --- In borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com, Peter Smaardijk <smaardijk@. ..> wrote:
              >
              > I don't know the exact verbum of this specific Norwegian law, of course, but I would think that you don't get the fine for entering Russia, but that you get the fine for leaving Norway at a point where it is not allowed and without official approval, i.e. at NORU, not having a visa and not going through the official border crossing point.
              >  
              > Pushing a tree over into Russia may cause damage or nuisance or whatever in Russia (illegal import of timber? :)  ), and I think Russia will protest to Norway, but Norway may have the right to fine you too, for doing something at NORU which is not allowed. The strict Norwegian rules at NORU are of course the result of Russia being particularly sensitive about what's going on at its borders, but that probably won't be reflected in the text of these rules.
              >  
              > B.t.w., you might get a fine for demolishing that tree, regardless of its location :)
              >  
              > Peter
              >
              > --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Jesper <jesper@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Jesper <jesper@...>
              > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition
              > To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
              > Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 12:38 PM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > There a strict rules of what you can do from the NO side of NORU, and you get heavily fined for breaking them. NO does not want incidents at this borders.
              >
              > I woman reached out her arm expanding it into RU to photograph a RU marker. She got fined for putting her hand inside RU.
              >
              > I always wondered what would happen up there if eg a tree was close to the border and I pushed it over so it was leaning into RU. My body didn't enter, but I disturbed RU territory.
              >
              > I will follow up.
              >
              > Jesper
              >
              > --- In borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Len wrote:
              > >
              > > > If you only straddle the border and bring your one foot back into US
              > > > airspace, have you left and re-entered the USA? Maybe it's like Baarle if
              > > > your house straddles the border - it then matters where the door is.
              > > > Maybe in the case of straddlers, it's where their heart or brain is (more
              > > > than 50%).
              > >
              > > I always figured that it was your center of gravity that determined such
              > > things. Unlike your heart, brain, or any other organ, it's a unique point.
              > >
              > > Lowell G. McManus
              > > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
              > >
              >

               

            • Peter Smaardijk
              Thanks! Not to mention that it is not allowed to use explosives or poison, or, indeed, drugs, to fish...   There is no need for mentioning that the Soviet
              Message 6 of 28 , Mar 8, 2010
                Thanks! Not to mention that it is not allowed to use explosives or poison, or, indeed, drugs, to fish...
                 
                There is no need for mentioning that the Soviet Union is superseded by the Russian Federation in Norwegian law, I think. The RF officially assumed all international obligations of the SU. Saves a lot of lawmakers an awful lot of work....
                 
                Peter

                --- On Mon, 3/8/10, Jesper Nielsen <jesper@...> wrote:

                From: Jesper Nielsen <jesper@...>
                Subject: SV: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition
                To: borderpoint@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, March 8, 2010, 10:08 PM

                 

                Maybe I should have linked this too

                http://www.grenseko m.no/lov2. php

                 

                it mentions Sovjet-samvellet, which offcourse is the Soviet Union . There is probably some note somewhere that tells you that the RU supersedes SU.

                 

                2c is interesting that crossing the border legally

                -          if lakes are shallow and you need to use main channnel.

                -          Log driving

                -          Emergencies

                 

                5 also prohibit traffic on the river after dark.

                 

                Jesper

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 


                Fra: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com [mailto: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com ] På vegne af Peter Smaardijk
                Sendt: 7. marts 2010 23:10
                Til: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                Emne: Re: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition

                 

                 

                 

                Just guessing, of course.

                 

                Peter

                --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Jesper <jesper@nicolette. dk> wrote:


                From: Jesper <jesper@nicolette. dk>
                Subject: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition
                To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 2:08 PM

                 

                Here is the law in Norwegian (but I know you a linguistic miracle):

                http://grensekom. no/lov1.php

                §3.3 illegal to cross the border by land, water and air without authority

                §4 punishment by fine or inprisonment

                Jesper

                (§3.5 about photographing the border, the rule now applies to military personel and material only.

                --- In borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com, Peter Smaardijk <smaardijk@. ..> wrote:
                >
                > I don't know the exact verbum of this specific Norwegian law, of course, but I would think that you don't get the fine for entering Russia, but that you get the fine for leaving Norway at a point where it is not allowed and without official approval, i.e. at NORU, not having a visa and not going through the official border crossing point.
                >  
                > Pushing a tree over into Russia may cause damage or nuisance or whatever in Russia (illegal import of timber? :)  ), and I think Russia will protest to Norway, but Norway may have the right to fine you too, for doing something at NORU which is not allowed. The strict Norwegian rules at NORU are of course the result of Russia being particularly sensitive about what's going on at its borders, but that probably won't be reflected in the text of these rules.
                >  
                > B.t.w., you might get a fine for demolishing that tree, regardless of its location :)
                >  
                > Peter
                >
                > --- On Sun, 3/7/10, Jesper <jesper@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: Jesper <jesper@...>
                > Subject: [borderpoint] Re: CAUS solo expedition
                > To: borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com
                > Date: Sunday, March 7, 2010, 12:38 PM
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                > There a strict rules of what you can do from the NO side of NORU, and you get heavily fined for breaking them. NO does not want incidents at this borders.
                >
                > I woman reached out her arm expanding it into RU to photograph a RU marker. She got fined for putting her hand inside RU.
                >
                > I always wondered what would happen up there if eg a tree was close to the border and I pushed it over so it was leaning into RU. My body didn't enter, but I disturbed RU territory.
                >
                > I will follow up.
                >
                > Jesper
                >
                > --- In borderpoint@ yahoogroups. com, "Lowell G. McManus" <lgm@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Len wrote:
                > >
                > > > If you only straddle the border and bring your one foot back into US
                > > > airspace, have you left and re-entered the USA? Maybe it's like Baarle if
                > > > your house straddles the border - it then matters where the door is.
                > > > Maybe in the case of straddlers, it's where their heart or brain is (more
                > > > than 50%).
                > >
                > > I always figured that it was your center of gravity that determined such
                > > things. Unlike your heart, brain, or any other organ, it's a unique point.
                > >
                > > Lowell G. McManus
                > > Eagle Pass, Texas, USA
                > >
                >

                Not sure about the miracle, but on first reading (par. 3) it looks like His Majesty is decreeing several things "for all or for part of the national boundary". It looks like there might be some additional regulation as to which part of the national boundary these rules apply to. In other words, at NOSE or FINO, the rules may be not as strict as at NORU. I don't see Russia mentioned anywhere in that law. It would have been strange if it had been, for sure.

                 

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